.45 ACP +P, .45 Super and .45-08 Heavy Boolit Load Data?

[longbow]

I have a friend who wants to use his 1911 as a carry gun in the bush for bear protection.

He is proficient and comfortable with it and does not want to consider other options so don't go there.

He had heard about the .45-08 which was developed for use in "modified" 1911's with bear protection in mind but using 200 gr. bullets. My friend wants to use 250 gr. RNFP's and already has 50 rounds of .45-08 brass.

He is a reloader but not too innovative so he asked me if I could help him sort out a load. I have a lot more reloading experience than he does but I am not much of a handgun shooter or reloader ~ rifle and shotgun for me. So, I am not very experienced with the 1911 and reloading .45 ACP or its "wildcat" kin.

So far I have found some data on .45-08 but not for boolits heavier than 200 gr. I have e-mailed Armco who developed the .45-08 but no response and the owner is semi retired so I may not get one.

From what I am finding, .45-08 and .45 Super seem to be pretty similar though .45 Super seems to run at a little higher pressures, has a barrel that fully supports the case head and seems to require a stiffer recoil spring. I am no expert here though and info seems sparse.

I have dug out a bunch of .45 ACP +P load data as well and some of that is pretty hot and uses heavier than "normal" boolits of up to 260 gr.

The goal here is to get a 250 gr. boolit up to about 1000 FPS if possible in a Dlask 1911 with 20 lb. recoil spring and suggested shock buffer. I think he may need a stiffer recoil spring. I do not know about the case head support in the Dlask barrel but that is one issue mentioned with .45 Super so I will have to check that one out.

We are looking for a safe starting point and advice on boolit weights/velocities reasonably achievable. Bear in mind these will not be shot in large numbers ~ just load development and then in emergency should they be required.

So, does anyone have load data, experience with .45-08 or .45 Super, comments, suggestions, real world experience with one of these using 200 gr. boolits, or preferably heavier boolits up to 250 grs.?

Thanks,
Longbow

[bhn22]

Not in an unsupported chamber you don't. It would be a very good idea to look at 460 Rowland information before committing anything to this project. I did a bit of shooting with an all steel Colt 1911 and 250 gr 45 Colt bullets. Even with heavy springs I quickly felt that I was overstressing the gun at 900 FPS, and I backed off my loads, and dropped the bullet weight back to 230 gr. 1000 fps is technically do-able with a 250 gr, and even more is possible with the correct setup. In my case, my concern for the gun overrode my desire to go fast. There is a lot of 250 gr 45 ACP data available, most older Speer manuals have it, but I feel most of it is simply too hot, and some here will agree. Proceed carefully, and good luck.

[longbow]

bhn22:

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I want to look into this some more before we make any decisions or in particular load up and pull a trigger.

I am reading about 28 lb. recoil springs and buffers for .45 Super and fully supported case head. Like I said, I am not sure about his Dlask so have to check the barrel/chamber.

My impression from what I have read is that depending on the gun the .45 Super can be put together pretty easily requiring only a barrel with fully supported chamber, 24 to 28 lb. recoil spring and buffer and of course using proper brass with thick web. I think (don't know for sure) that the .45-08 is a little milder. It does require the thicker web and heavier recoil spring. Not sure about the chamber support requirement but obviously better with than without. He may have to buy a new barrel to meet that.

The gun would certainly not get a steady diet of these loads so wear and tear would be minimal and really just during load work up and testing.

We will proceed very carefully indeed.

Thanks again.

Longbow

[Jupiter7]

Linking to a thread on 1911 forum from member here. Heavy boolits in the 1911. This is one of 2 threads I read that pushed me into casting. Also some recommendations about gun mods. I have since casted 235's with wide flat nose and run them at near max loads, about 900fps. No mods and no damage.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=378852

[akraven]

45-08 is significantly hotter than the 45 super. Depending on load can be hotter than 460 Rowland. I too have tried to email Armco in the past and he is not real good at returning emails. You might find more info on this forum http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/index.php as it was developed in Canada (Armco) and there was some exposure on there. A flat bottom firing pin stop will also slow the cycling down.

[bhn22]

One thing: I remember during the development of the 45 Super that there were issues with overly large firing pin holes, with primers flowing back, and tying up the gun. Their solution was to bush the firing pin hole, fitting it tightly to the pin itself. Reading up on the 45-08 leaves me unimpressed with the case design. It sounds to me like they're removing the part of the case they'd want most to remain unaltered. The internet descriptions might not be doing the project justice, but I would think you could use 460 Rowland brass, or 451 Detonics brass, trimmed to normal 45 ACP lengths and avoid the lathework to the cases. Another possibility would be to rechamber the existing barrel to 460, or perhaps a hybrid chamber that would end up much like 451 Detonics. Or, you could cut down 45 Win Mag cases if available. I have discussed this subject with Veral Smith of LBT, and he also mentioned using AA#9 as a propellant. He made some suggestions as far as load development, but the main concern is that #9 doesn't appear to work well when compressed, but does work best at a high loading density. This was the primary reason for me ending up with one of his LFN 45 ACP molds, but I decided to back away from the heavy loads and now load at +P levels. Verals bullet is designed to maximize case room, allowing the safe(er) use of higher powder charges.

[300savage]

i regularly run 11grns of 2400 behind a 255 cast rfn exactly like buffalo bore uses in their bear loads.
this is with standard 45acp brass and it duplicates the bb load exactly with no pressure signs out of my totally factory stock g21 sf.
no smiles, slightly flattened primers .
925 fps with a big fat hunka lead, when starline finally sends me my super brass i am bumping that load up to 12.5

[bhn22]

I was using 6.5 gr of Unique with a Lyman 452190 45 Colt bullet. I never chronographed it, but it should be a solid 850 fps. It probably could have used a heavier recoil spring, I normally run 18 lb ISMIs, and 20 lb certainly wouldn't have been out of place.

There's also always Blue Dot.

[pdawg_shooter]

Both my 45s (1 1911 and 1 Sig) thrive on a diet of 240gn rnfp over a stiff load of AA#5. My load gives a velocity of just over 925fps. If that wont get the job done I do have a 44mag.

[bhn22]

230 gr LBT .452 LFN
90408

[w5pv]

I still say don't hotrod a gun that wasn't meant to be hot rodded

[44MAG#1]

300SAVAGE:
"i regularly run 11grns of 2400 behind a 255 cast rfn exactly like buffalo bore uses in their bear loads.
this is with standard 45acp brass and it duplicates the bb load exactly with no pressure signs out of my totally factory stock g21 sf.
no smiles, slightly flattened primers .
925 fps with a big fat hunka lead, when starline finally sends me my super brass i am bumping that load up to 12.5"

While I think 2400 is a good powder for the 45Auto, regardless what others think, if you are talking about Buffalo Bores +P 45 auto load with the 255 gr Magma Eng. 250 gr RNFP I believe you are mistaken. They use around 7.5 or so of a powder that looks like PowerPistol.

I just pulled a round and the bullet actually weighed 247 gr and was backed by 7.5gr of a powder that looked like PowerPistol.
I had done this before but forgot the actual charge weight. But now I am in the know on it.

[300savage]

i dont know what powder they are using but 11 grains of 2400 will give you the same velocity behind a 255 grain rnfp

[longbow]

Yow! Lots of responses and info.

Thanks guys. I will read through and look at links.

w5pv:

No argument. My understanding of all this is that with a steel frame gun and fully supported chamber there is no safety issue and with heavier recoil spring and buffer that takes the beating off the gun. The slide will slam harder but the rest should be okay.

I certainly do not plan on doing dangerous stuff here and will be following a slow load work up to loads that have been proven safe and sane.

The gun itself will not see much use with these loads after load work up so it will not get beat to death by a steady diet of hot loads. This is a Dlask gun by the way and my understanding is that it is a top notch and strong gun. I still have some investigation to do before loading and pulling a trigger for sure though.

Thanks for the input so far.

Longbow

[KYCaster]

Couple of points I'd like to make.......

1) Getting a "fully supported chamber" is not as simple as buying a drop in barrel. The frame requires some drastic alteration that is beyond the ability of most hobby gunsmiths. I wasn't aware that Dlask is still in business, it's been so long since I've seen the name mentioned, but after looking at their current prices, I'd seriously consider buying another gun as the basis of this project since the frame is going to require an expensive modification.

2) Bullets in the 250 gr. + range present some issues not normally encountered with the traditional 230 gr. RN bullet. They need to be seated deeper in the case in order to fit the magazine. This issue can be improved somewhat by using a flat meplat vs. a RN design, but the meplat can interfere with feeding, especially with the integral feed ramp of the fully supported barrel. The deep seating required by the bullet design can cause case bulging where the base of the bullet meets the thicker part of the case, which can interfere with chambering, thus the extensive machining required for the 45-08.

3) Even at moderate velocity and pressure, a continued diet of heavy bullets can cause unusual stress and accelerated wear on the gun, leading to premature failure. Shock buffs may sound like a good idea, but they're often the cause of malfunctions and if the gun had to depend on a shock buff to continue operating, I certainly wouldn't depend on it to guarantee my safety.

4) If you seriously think that you'll have to depend on the gun to save your life, build it like you want it and shoot it till it fails, then you'll really know what you can expect from it. Then build the gun you'll actually carry, using the information you learned from your first attempt.

Good luck.
Jerry

[KYCaster]

Oops, double post. :oops:

[longbow]

Yes, as far as I know Dlask is still making guns. My friend is a good friend of Joe Dlask.

Like I said, I am not much of a handgun shooter so no expert here. What I can do is sort through data and work up loads.

I will have to check on the Dlask barrel and chamber to see what it has to offer. It may also well be worth contacting Dlask for his opinion. I doubt my friend wants to do significant mods to the gun other than recoil spring and maybe buffer.

Not sure why he is set on the 250 gr. boolit but at this point he is so first check is to load a dummy round with the 250 gr. boolit to see if it will seat deep enough to feed reliably in his .45-08 brass.

My inclination is to go with what Armco developed using the 200 gr. boolit or maybe work up 230 gr. loads since that is more or less standard fair for the .45 ACP.

Looking for advice as well. If the 200 gr. boolit loaded to typical .45-08 velocities works well and someone has experience using it on critters of some sort like deer or bears then that would be good to know.

The reason he wants to use his 1911 is that is what he knows well and is proficient with and he is proficient with it. Better to use what he knows and hit what he wants than fumble with something unfamiliar.

As mentioned, there would be no steady diet of these. Just load work up then self defense if required.

Thanks for the feedback.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Hey Longbow, you ventured away from the shotgun site for a while.
There were a few threads on loading heavy slugs in the 45 auto last year, and earlier this year.
The Speer #12 manual has loading data for there 260 grain "jacketed" hp. I substituted the Lee 255 rnfp for the Speer 260, and used the Herco powder load listed. I did catch some flack from another member when I posted my range report. Seems he was concerned about the boolit being too long, and it taking up too much case volume, causing high pressures. To make a long story short, I called Speer, and ask the length of there 260 grain jacketed hp. As it turned out, the Lee 255 rnfp is about .080 "shorter" than the Speer jacketed. This allows "more" case volume to be had with the Lee boolit, and no worries about being seated too deep in the 45acp case.
My loads shot fine in my Taurus PT1911. At 12 yards (the closest distance at the gun club) they were very accurate. I used the stock spring, as I have read numerous times about the heavier springs battering the gun when going into battery.
Just my experience.
Jack

[300savage]

i am pretty sure that a heavier spring just beats hell out of your gun going into battery.
the bullet should be out of the barrel before the action ever begins to move so spring strength really does very little except slap your slide forward much harder.

[longbow]

I have seen other comments about the Speer manual so will have to check that out.

I also have concerns about case volume and depth of seating with a 250 gr. boolit.

Using the .45-08 brass which has a thicker head and web even though it is reamed to remove taper, it will have less volume than standard .45 ACP brass so that has to raise pressures some. Also with the heavier boolit and depending on shape, that may require deeper seating which again reduces volume and will raise pressures.

Another concern is that if the brass is reamed to suit a 200 gr. boolit, which the .45-08 seems to have been developed for, the a 250 gr. may not seat deep enough to feed if OAL is to long. We'll see how that goes first.

My plan is to start out using +P load data for the same boolit weight then work up in small increments like .5 grs. to see where we get to with his 20 lb. spring. What I am reading is indicating 22 to 24 lb. spring is required for .45-08 or .45 Super (I have read of 28 to 30 lb. spring for .45 Super).

I will check his Dlask barrel/chamber to see how well the case head is supported before doing anything. If it does not have fully supported chamber then he may be limited to +P or maybe a little hotter with the .45-08 brass.

A lighter boolit a higher velocity may provide better performance. Not sure yet. I tend to be a heavy boolit guy but the .45 ACP cartridge is so limited in capacity (and .45-08 even more so) there may be a trade off between powder capacity/velocity and boolit weight. Armco went with 200 gr. boolit for a reason I am thinking.

In the end we may have to work up loads for 250 gr. and 200 gr. to compare penetration. I have .45-08 load data for 200 gr. and .45 ACP +P and .45 Super load data for 250 and 260 gr. +P loads may be a safe and reasonable place to compare penetration then make a choice and work up loads from there.

Longbow

[300savage]

a 255 grn rnfp boolit seats no deeper in the case than does a 230 hp jacketed.
i commonly shoot a 275 grn by hunters supply with zero feeding or pressure issues just under 900 fps also using 2400.
but now this is a totally stock glock which as we all know is simply the greatest 45 ever made..
that is until we start trying to improve it with "fully supported barrels" and heavier springs..

really though there truly is a lot of stuff out there we get sold on the idea of that makes far better press than sense.

you are reinventing the wheel my friend, as you will discover in time if you research it long enough.

[longbow]

300savage:

If you are shooting a 275 gr. boolit at 900 FPS that may be just the ticket. He has 1000 + FPS in his head for 250 gr. Not sure why but he does.

The .45-08 is reported to produce 1300 FPS using a 200 gr. boolit with load data from Armco, .45-08 brass and a 22 lb. or heavier recoil spring.

Actually, I am not trying to reinvent anything. My friend asked if I could help so I am trying to find out what others have done and what is available and recommended. So far I am finding quite polarized opinions on the whole idea.

I certainly do not want to be doing anything dangerous. As for beating up the gun, this is his choice. As long as there is no danger then it is up to him if he wants to subject his gun to raping wear/peening or whatever. Once load work up is done, he will likely never shoot another one of these rounds.

His goal is to use the gun he likes and is comfortable with if he needs it in an emergency. While I would choose a different gun and more powerful round, this is his preference.

I like a challenge and this could be interesting.

So back to your 275 gr. load at 900 FPS, have you compared terminal ballistics to lighter boolits at higher velocity? Like a 200 gr. at 1300 FPS?

I am curious why Armco went with the light boolit at high velocity rather than a heavier boolit at lower velocity.

Now, load data for .45 Super is right about where my friend wants to be but I am not sure he will get there with what he has.

Still researching. Lots to learn and consider.

Longbow

[DRNurse1]

i am pretty sure that a heavier spring just beats hell out of your gun going into battery.
the bullet should be out of the barrel before the action ever begins to move so spring strength really does very little except slap your slide forward much harder.

Interesting thesis but a bit misdirected. The spring absorbs the rearward energy created when the boolit is moving down the barrel. More mass to move, at the same velocity yields more energy to absorb. The recoil spring for the 185 gr SWC I use is about 12# but the one for the 230gr RN is 22#. You are correct that the force has to go somewhere when the slide returns to battery, so there is more forward force in the heavier spring. The trade off being 'felt recoil' (lighter spring yields more felt recoil) and the battering your gun receives by not absorbing the rearward force in the spring.

Either way, the energy has to go somewhere. Those darned physics guys, any way.

[C. Latch]

I'm mainly just replying to add this to my subscriptions so I can follow it as it progresses. Part of me would like to turn one of my 1911s into a 'woods gun' with a heavy RNFP at +P levels. Part of me thinks I need to just stick with the .45 Colt for that and leave the .45ACP as it was designed (230ish at 850ish). Either way, I find these threads interesting.

[300savage]

longbow i havent checked to be honest, reason being that i absolutely abhor any handgun round that does not start with a .4 or that runs over 1100 fps.
but i also want the mostest i can get inside those parameters in whatever package i am packing. that means heavy bullets at medium heavy velocity.
the reason for all of this is simply because first of all i refuse to shoot a handgun that is shooting fater than the speed of sound unless it is an emergency, and second any caliber smaller than .40 rings my friggin ears regardless of its velocity.
i made this rule for myself years ago because I do not wear hearing protection on the ranch or when hunting and hate stinging my ears everytime i have to shoot a feral dog or hog or whatever needs ventilated.
I have also found though that in an open sighted handgun there is little need unless you are in grizz country to ever need more than about 255 grns at 1050 max, or 275 at 900.
or a 200 grn.40 bumping up against 1100.
these dont hurt my ears, shoot flat enough to about the limit of my opensight pistola shooting range, which is ideally about 30 yards, realistic max of not much more than 75. after that i am just shooting at them because i don't like em..
but i do know that when you hit one at whatever range with one of these hunks of soft grey metal they damned sure know they have been hit.
i would hate to be put to the test with a dangerous critter with only a handgun of any kind to be honest, but to be honest i wouldnt walk around scared in just about any hunting grounds anywhere in this world if one of these was all I had.
but if i had to walk in big bear country on a regular basis i would be cranking things up considerably and damage to my gun be damned.
but probably would never have to shoot it at a bad critter ever anyway, as i am a firm believer in carrying an adequate caliber rifle in my hand anytime i am hiking in bear country of any kind.


and drnurse, i still aint convinced due to the timing of the action beginning to cam out of battery being behind the escape of pressure out the end of the barrel, but what the hek hey...

[bhn22]

Excessive return energy from overspringing generally manifests itself in the lower barrel lugs getting battered.

[ole 5 hole group]

Sorry Double Post

[ole 5 hole group]

You can get that 1911 up to speed but there's not many loads that are real accurate - meaning putting 5 shots in a 5 or 6 inch group at 50 yards. Off a rest of course but you should be able to do close to that off-hand.

I have one load that I found for one of my 1911's that is both accurate and delivers the mail upon request. 8.0 grains of VV N350 behind a 265 grain Beartooth cast bullet using a WLP primer - that puppy moves out at 1,004fps from a 5" barrel with OAL of 1.245". Now I have an oversized firing pin stop with a slight bevel, 22# recoil spring and buffer to limit damage and I have used both the Starline 45+P and Super cases but regular 45 ACP cases should be fine also.

I have another 1911 - same make & model that will shoot bushel basket groups at 50 yards with that particular load and that is disappointing as hell.

Same powder and powder charge with a 230 grain bonded JHP (Gold Dot) moves out at 983 fps from a 5" barrel with OAL being 1.225", which is more than enough for most big game in the lower 48.

My son-in-law has a Glock SF21 and that particular pistol shoots about everything pretty well and handles the above loads with no problems in stock form. If you can handle that Glock trigger that's the platform I'd recommend for heavy, over the top loads, if you plan on practicing a lot with those hot loads.

[35remington]

It's essentially a fool's errand running extra heavy springs in a 1911.......and with heavy loads as mentioned the forward impact on the barrel lug feet is worrisome with said heavy springs that are thought necessary for heavy loads.

Way better is to run a small radius firing pin stop with a lighter spring. Far better tendency for reliable function than the extreme downside a heavy recoil spring has attendant with its use, as the downsides are literally multiple. The small radius stop gives frame buffering equivalent to a heavy spring and does not challenge the gun to function correctly.

The heaviest impact the 1911 sees is the moment of firing when the lugs are slammed into engagement. The G forces found with this event are four times that of slide/frame impact. Stress risers are the sharp corners around the breechface area. Everyone is so worried about slide/frame impact that this important consideration is forgotten. The heavy spring "cure" for slide frame impact is as bad as the affliction.

Any 1911 should also be examined for depth of lug engagement if heavy loads are contemplated. A forged slide, frame and barrel may also be advisable in a gun of newer make.

[35remington]

300, the slide starts to move rearward as soon as the bullet goes forward, but unlocking of the barrel cannot happen until the bullet leaves the barrel.

[longbow]

ole 5 hole group:

If you are getting a 265 gr. boolit up to ~ 1000 FPS, that is about exactly what my friend is looking for. Good stuff!

My plan is to collect as much info as I can, sift through it all, make any recommended alterations to the gun then start at +P levels and slowly work up.

If you are already there using VV N350 that is what I want to know.

Again we are not looking to shoot a steady diet of these, just enough to work up the defense load. Also, extreme accuracy is also not really required. This is for up close and personal experiences with bears should he run into that situation. Distances would be measured in feet most likely so as long as the groups are measured in inches they should be fine.

Thanks,
Longbow

[Fluxed]

You're going to break something.
The 1911 is a lot of wonderful things but its not magic.

[BCRider]

Longbow, this may prove to be fun to play with but the last guy I know of that got a wilderness ATC up this way said that the CFO isn't interested in discussing anything other than revolvers in .44Mag or bigger for approval. So your buddy's idea of getting his hot rodded 1911 approved is a non-starter.

[Deep Six]

I load a 255 RNFP (Lee and others) on top of a little more than 5 gr Unique with OAL about 1.220 (max length I can get to feed reliable due to my Colt XSE's tight throat). I worked up to these in my 1911 so don't assume they're fine in yours. These shoot reliably and are accurate with the stock Colt gun and springs. Never chrono'd them but I suspect somewhere about 750, maybe a little more. They are the stoutest load I'm willing to shoot out of MY Colt. I shot a string of 100 of them the other day and it resulted in the safety lever chewing through the skin at the base of my thumb, so they must be recoiling more than the standard 230 gr load. These work in several 1911s I've tried them in but wouldn't even chamber in my brother's XD. Never tried them in a glock. Also, the Lee 255 has a very short nose and wide meplat, and feeds less reliably than other 255 rnfp designs I've tried.

If I was going to try to maximize a load with such a boolit, I woud design a bullet of about 260 gr with a tangential bore-rider nose (bore ride length of zero, just a step) with a meplat of about 70% with a nose length set up for an OAL of 1.260. The long nose bore ride design will allow that heavy boolit to be seated at max OAL without hitting the rifling before going into battery. This will maximize powder capacity in the case. The 70% meplat should be a good compromise between reliable feeding and terminal ballistics.

I know my load isn't the power level you were looking for, but's it is my experience with heavy 45 loads in a stock gun. Honestly, your friend really just needs to spend $500 on a Ruger single action and learn how to shoot it. They're not hard to learn at all and offer the power level he wants plus a whole bunch more even in stock form.

[ole 5 hole group]

Buffalo Bore puts out a 255 grain cast that moves along at 950 to 975 fps from a 5" barrel and I believe the website states no modifications necessary for that particular load but doesn't recommend a steady diet without modifications.

Here's an internet load that I haven't tried but allegedly a Beartooth 255 gr WFN bullet using 7.0 grains of AA No. 5 powder with WLP primer will get you 950/975 fps from a 5" 1911.

My 1911's came standard with 18.5# recoil springs and once you start getting much past 900fps with 255/265 grain cast bullets that slide comes back with a little more authority and your brass will sail off pretty good - installing an oversized firing pin stop with either a flat base or a very slight bevel should slow down the slide coming back but I really couldn't tell any difference by eyeballing how far the brass flew, so I added a little more recoil spring weight to settle things down a little.

20# recoil spring helped some with the flying cases but I settled on 22#'s for that 265 grain load and I have noticed no abuse on the hard hat treatment, so I feel all is well there. On the other 1911, I have it ion-bonded, and when I went past 1004fps with the 265 grain, I did notice abuse to the slide locking lug area in 2 locations on the 1st lug - that was with 8.5 grains of VV N350 with a velocity of 1,061fps. I haven't went back with that load in either pistol, as it's too hot for my liking. The Glock 21 took the 8.5 grain load in stride but accuracy was terrible.

[jmsj]

Longbow,
Been a while since I posted. I read your post and dug up an old post I did awhile back.
07-06-2013, 02:02 PM #20

makicjf,
I have tuned a gun similar to what you are looking for. I have posted in the past about a Taurus PT1911 that I couldn't get decent groups out of until I tried heavier bullets (Lee .452-255-RF). You can search the old posts regarding using similar bullets in the 1911 platform. I now use this as my hiking pistol. I find it much more comfortable to carry a 1911 than the Vaquero or 629 I use to use when carrying a full pack (up to 40#). For me I found that I was more willing to carry a gun when it wasn't getting in the way. I also found it more convenient to carry a spare clip than a speed loader or loose ammo.
I do use the flat bottom firing pin stop, 25# mainspring and an 18.5# recoil spring. The flat bottom firing pin stop takes away the mechanical advantage of the factory large radius firing pin stop. The flat or small radius firing pin stop was JMB's original design for this part. Without the mechanical advantage of the larger radius more energy from the slide cycling has to be used to cock the hammer back thus slowing down the slide velocity. I also use a heavier than stock mainspring to add more resistance to the slide coming back.
Even though this helps quite a bit, remember that there is still more energy in the heavy loads and the safety limits are still the same. Loading heavier than normal does come with some special considerations. Remember that heavier bullets take up more air space in the case.
Only time will tell how this set up holds up. I have probably fired a thousand rounds out of this set up with no problems or noticeable wear. But remember every gun is unique and not all may like this set up.
Good luck, jmsj

I continued working on this load and settled on 5.8 grains of Unique (875-900 fps.IIRC). This was the highest level at which I could still get off well aimed shots on target at a reasonable rate. I went up to 6.0 grains but my accuracy/speed suffered. I felt that the 5.8 grain Unique loads would be sufficient for the 300# class bears and mountain lions we normally encounter around here. I don't know if this fits your situation.
I really like the flat bottom or small radius firing pin stop in my 1911's except for very light shooting BE guns. These types of firing pin stops are available from EGW, Harrison Design and Fusion. I have used all three and they all work well. The Fusion is probably the easiest to fit. The Harrison and EGW are oversized quite a bit. The flat/small radius firing pin stop combined with a 25# mainspring really seems to make a big difference.
In my mind this is about as stout as I am willing to go in a standard 1911 platform. At 6.0 grains, I could start to feel the slide bottoming out hard against the frame. I tried shok-buffs but they got chewed up very quickly. I tried heavier springs but when the gun slammed back into battery the extra force going forward pulled the gun off track too much. This also concerned me about the amount of force being applied to the slide stop/barrel feet. I have done some research on the 45 Super and I have some reservations but that's just me. Someone else suggested going up 460 Rowland and this is the conclusion I came up with also. From my understanding the compensator helps keep the muzzle rise down and the weight of the compensator keeps the slide and barrel from unlocking until the chamber pressure drops a some. As a plus the Rowland has higher velocity/energy gains over the 45 Super.
Currently I have to finish up a 1911 Officer's Model for myself, a 1911 CCO for my daughter but the next project for me is going to be a 1911 in 460 Rowland.
Take care, jmsj

[35remington]

If you'd get off the heavy bullet idea, there's really little the 255/265 grain bullets can do, penetration wise, that the 230's cannot essentially equal. Here more weight is traded for greater velocity and lower pressures in so doing.

I invite you to do some penetration tests as I have. The most valid conclusion is that 25 grains of additional bullet weight has no particular merit. If penetration is such a concern that 25 additional grains is thought beneficial, a revision of thinking is necessary. Further, if 230 grains is inadequate in penetration, so is 255 or 265.

[35remington]

"From my understanding the compensator helps keep the muzzle rise down and the weight of the compensator keeps the slide and barrel from unlocking until the chamber pressure drops a some."

Well, no.

The purpose of the compensator is to allow the escaping gasses to slow the rearward slide velocity by striking the flat surfaces of the compensator on bullet exit. At this point slide and barrel are still joined but are moving rearward together, so striking gasses slow both. The weight of the compensator also adds to the mass of combined barrel and slide and slows rearward slide velocity due to the heavier weight compared to a noncompensated barrel.

But here's the important distinction.

Whether a compensator is present or not, it cannot prevent the gun from "unlocking early" because early unlocking is never, ever the problem with an uncompensated barrel. Slide velocity is the problem. There is one time and one time only the barrel and slide unlock in an uncompensated barrel......when the bullet exits. Unlocking only occurs when the bullet is gone and the pressure is low, compensated barrel or not.

It is physically impossible for the slide and barrel to unlock until after the bullet has left the barrel, whether a compensator is present or not.

The barrel cannot unlock when the pressure is high.....only when said pressure is gone. Compensated or not.

[longbow]

Again, thanks to everyone for responses. Lots to read and absorb.

35remington:

My plan is to start at heavy loads then work up to +P using both 230 gr. boolits and the 250's he bought. I do plan to do comparative penetration testing as we go as well. We'll see what happens from there.

In all honesty, I am a heavy bullet kinda guy and I am betting the the heavy boolits at moderate velocities will do what he wants without venturing into high pressure territory. In fact a fellow just sent me an article about that very thing.

What I would like to find out, and may even get to test it out while we work on this, is why Armco went with a 200 gr. boolit at "hyper" velocity when heavy bullet loads at moderate velocity have already been proven for good penetration. Possibly that light boolit at hyper velocity is better but I am doubting it. I certainly am not finding heavy boolit data (even 230 gr.) for the .45-08 though. There are lots of 250 to 265 gr. loads for .45 Super though.

I certainly won't disagree that a 250 gr. boolit would offer much if any more than a 230 gr. The difference is quite small. Now when comparing the 250 gr. to 200 gr. it is a little different. Testing will tell the tale I hope.

BCRider:

Not a problem. He already has his carry permit for the 1911 in .45 ACP. Besides which, I don't think the CFO gets to decide what handgun you carry or what caliber, only whether you get the permit or not. My friend has a free miner's license so they basically have to give him a carry permit unless there is good reason (criminal record or other serious issue) not to. I am not a handgun guy and have never applied for a carry permit so have no personal experience there but I cannot see how the CFO would have any say if what a guy carries.

No matter what you or I think though as he already has the permit so that is done.

Thanks all for the input.

Longbow

[robertbank]

Lots of opinions some of which are backed by experience. Gunner up in Pr. George developed the 45-08 cartridge some years ago for guides to use in their 1911's for short range bear protection. You use a 22# recoil spring and .308 cases shortened and reamed out to .452 down to the webbing. The .45acp barrels will certainly take the pressure but regular .45acp cases won't so don't use the following load in .45acp cases. Cases most be reamed out to allow the bullet to seat. I should add Gunnar C. has been an accomplished gunsmith for years - his company is Armco Plating out of Pr. George, BC. Longbow and BC Rider are both familiar with Gunnar I am sure.

The load he gave me and one in which I have used in my Norinco 1911 with a 22# spring is:

10.5 gr of Longshot under 200gr LSWC cast hard - Vel 1,299 fps

He recommended the use of the 200 gr LSWC for penetration plus the sharp shoulders will cut blood vessels rather than push them aside, something RN bullets tend to do. Personally I wouldn't go with the RN bullets. In the 1911 .45acp mode they have a rather dismal one shot stop stat despite all the hype. You can run the Longshot load a little higher but I haven't so no comment. The load has been effective on Black Bears I am told. Recoil is similar to a 357mag.

The advantage of the 1911 over a heavy revolver is capacity, reload time, and ease of carry and draw. Having a large revolver that is difficult to draw quickly won't do you much good if you run into a bear at close quarters.

I had a Wilderness permit a few years back and carried the 1911.

Take Care

Bob

[longbow]

Thanks for that Bob.

Out of curiosity, have you done any penetration testing to compare the high velocity 200 gr. boolit with heavier boolits?

I am reading of regular .45 ACp and +P loads with very heavy boolits being far superior to light boolits for penetration. I realize boolit design plays a large part but assuming an LSWC or RNFP design with similar meplat. The boolits my friend wants to load are 250 gr. RNFP and were "recommended" for his application. As mentioned, he already has .45-08 purchased form Bumblbee Machine who has partially taken over Armco work and products.

Now, we do have to check if the 250 boolit will seat deep enough meet OAL requirements for feeding. If not then he will have to rethink a bit.

Personally I think the heavier boolit is a better choice but that is just opinion. If the 200 gr. boolit is a proven performer on bears (need first hand accounts!) then he may change his mind and we can use Gunnar's load data. That would be more practical but probably not as much fun as working up these loads.

Longbow

[robertbank]

Longbow if I remember correctly Gunnar told me the lighter bullet was better. The sharp shoulders of the LSWC seemed to be another factor beyond the flat meplat. Velocity seems to be the key to deep penetration. Your friend shouldn't have any problems seating the bullets in the case with a satisfactory OAL. I have shot 255 gr lead bullets out of my Norinco 1911 without any problems. Whether there is enough room for the powder required to send the bullet along at the velocities you want to achieve is another matter. My loadings were directed to reducing felt recoil while maintaining IDPA PF requirements.

I know Gunnar did a lot of testing to get the 45-08 cartridge performing the way he wanted for bear protection and I assume he settled on the 200 gr LSWC for a reason. I also know he worked with local guides and I do remember him saying the used more than one dead bear carcass in their testing.

I have one of my Norcs set up for bush carry. GI sights and nothing more than a heavier spring and a FMSH. I prefer the flat over the curved mainspring housing. If I do need the gun for bear protection up here the distances will be such that better sights won't be of much use.

Your friend won't likely be shooting many of these rounds other than to get used to them. Once you know your gun will run with them, my practice time moves to regular .45acp cartridges loaded warm.

Take Care

Bob

[Thundermaker]

A square bottom firing pin retainter will help slow down rearward slide movement. A heavier mainspring wouldn't hurt either.

[longbow]

Bob:

Yeah, while I am a heavy boolit kinda guy I figure Gunnar probably had a good reason for choosing the lighter boolit. It might hinge around a mix of velocity and the boolit design doing more damage than a heavier "rounder" boolit. It is possible that even with sharp shoulders on the heavier boolit, that at the lower velocity it doesn't cut tissue as well. Purely speculation on my part. Without first hand experience or some testing (and I do like testing... especially when someone else is buying powder, primers and boolits!) it is a guess. We will do some testing.

Having said that, I guess we should obtain some 200 LSWC's to shoot and compare results with his heavies.

Certainly penetration isn't everything unless there is significant damage all along the boolit path.

Thundermaker:

Yes, indeed. I was ignorant to the firing pin stop/retainer until recently. It has been pointed out by others as well so thanks for that. Like I said, I am no expert on 1911's much less with non-standard loading. He will be using a heavier than standard recoil spring too but not as heavy as has been recommended. We will see how that goes.

When you don't know much it is best to ask those that do. I am absorbing and learning from all the responses. This place has lots of people with lots of knowledge so it is a good place to ask.

Both pro and con replies are being taken into account here and I do not plan on doing anything stupid.

Thanks.

Longbow

[300savage]

in a defense situation against large animals tissue damage does not mean much, penetration is king in those situations.
you can blow their heart into pieces and it does not mean you still wont get torn up, gored or smashed.
if you are wanting to stop that kind of fight choose whatever round stands the best chance of breaking major bones or reaching the central nervous system.
again tissue damage is useless if it dies taking you with it.

ask a ph why they use solids as stopping rounds instead of soft points,
if you were talking about carrying a large caliber rifle with heavy soft points against bears a big very heavy expanding bullet is a good choice.
but when your talking a souped up 45 acp it is a very different world.
a heavy 250 to 270 grn rnfp with about a .25 cal meplat going as close to 1050 /1100 as you can is about as good as it gets.
and yes it will feed like grease through a goose and it has plenty of room for all the powder you need.

[robertbank]

longbow I guess I will defer to Gunnars development and testing of this cartridge and loading. 300Savage is correct when he says the bears aren't going to die quickly and the answer is of course destroying any portion of their nervous system. None the less up here the only time you will be using your 1911 is at very close range. I am not one to try to re-invent the wheel. As an aside unless you get real lucky you are going to get bitten. The situations we are talking about aren't hunting scenarios. Let me know how you make out. If I hear from Gunnar all ask him to get in touch with you. PM your contact info.

The 45-08 cartridge requires the use of a 22# recoil spring.

Take Care

Bob

[DRNurse1]

Thanks for that Bob.

Out of curiosity, have you done any penetration testing to compare the high velocity 200 gr. boolit with heavier boolits?

I am reading of regular .45 ACp and +P loads with very heavy boolits being far superior to light boolits for penetration. I realize boolit design plays a large part but assuming an LSWC or RNFP design with similar meplat. The boolits my friend wants to load are 250 gr. RNFP and were "recommended" for his application. As mentioned, he already has .45-08 purchased form Bumblbee Machine who has partially taken over Armco work and products.

Longbow

I would also defer to the experienced folks above.

For penetration: 230 gr PB RN and JHP over 5.8gr Winchester 231 and a variety of LPP yielded a 275# bear taken with 2 rounds (first was likely enough) at about 30 feet (the bruin was in my garage), RN penetrated 3/8 inch oak plank and 7 milk jugs (about 7 feet) filled with water (15 plastic walls and 7 feet of water) and stopped in the 8th jug. The JHP managed 3 layers of denim and stopped in the 5th jug.

This is only my anecdotal experience and I used a Caspian 1911a1 built for competition with a 22# spring and a 5 inch Match barrel for each of these encounters.

[Groo]

Groo here
Setting aside the effects on big bear, if you want to convert a 1911 - go to 460 Roland.
The performance is there, the brass is there, the loads are there ,the gun will also shoot 45 acp.
The conversion is simple and the dies are 45 acp.
If you are interested, The 1911 is held closed by the hammer spring ,not the recoil spring.
Heavy loads [ aka 10mm nuke loads] are shot by using a flat bottom firing pin stop and 20 to 22 lb springs.
The recoil spring slows the slide comming back and chambers the next shell.

[300savage]

the 45 headspaces on the case mouth, the rowland is a longer case. 45 super brass is as strong as 45R and the oal of the two cartridges is the same or else the 45R would not function in a 1911. you just have to seat the bullet deeper in the 45R so powder capacity is the same.
i looked hard at the 45R and saw no advantage over the super, and several disadvantages.

[NavyVet1959]

the 45 headspaces on the case mouth, the rowland is a longer case. 45 super brass is as strong as 45R and the oal of the two cartridges is the same or else the 45R would not function in a 1911. you just have to seat the bullet deeper in the 45R so powder capacity is the same.
i looked hard at the 45R and saw no advantage over the super, and several disadvantages.

Agreed... That's why I created a .460 Rowland level G21 that has a normal .45ACP chamber. I put a LoneWolf 6.61" threaded barrel on it with their compensator. The barrel arrived today, so I haven't had a chance to load any ammo for it and test it.

[akraven]

Agreed... That's why I created a .460 Rowland level G21 that has a normal .45ACP chamber. I put a LoneWolf 6.61" threaded barrel on it with their compensator. The barrel arrived today, so I haven't had a chance to load any ammo for it and test it.

I will be interested to see what you can come with performance wise Please post the results. Thank you.

[C. Latch]

Seeing all this talk about bears reminded me:

My dad went to CO on an elk/deer hunt last month. He borrowed my lightweight 1911 that was set up for +P loads; I sent him a few magazines of 252-grain flat points over a stout charge of 800-x.

When he encountered the bear, it was 10' away, sleeping, and they both saw each other at the same time. He ran one way, the bear ran the other, and it was a good thing, as his arrow nock popped off the string and the pistol was stowed in his day pack.

So much for bear defense. I'm just glad it was a sleepy black bear, not an angry grizzly.

[NavyVet1959]

I will be interested to see what you can come with performance wise Please post the results. Thank you.

I don't have the optimal powders to get the most out of it yet. One of these days, the powder distributors will be able to keep all powders in stock and I'll get more appropriate powders, but until then, I'll make do with whatever I have on hand.

[longbow]

I am surprised to see this thread is still alive but glad to see any more info too.

My buddy did not get his .45-08 project completed or at least as far as I know. I was just thinking I have not heard from him in a while and life kinda got in the way for me so I have not done much fun stuff for several months.

In any case, I will absorb whatever useful info gets posted and pass it on to him. I am curious as well because this seems to be a controversial topic.

Longbow

[BCgunworks]

Heavy load capable guns for the 45, 45 super, 10 mm, and 460 are what my shop specializes in.

Feel free to contact me and I'll tell you what you need to do to set up your gun. And no I'm not trying to get you to spend money.

Look ok up my website and you can see it's not my first rodeo.

[NavyVet1959]

First test today was to shoot some factory rounds (Winchester White Box) in an officer's model 1911 and in the G21 with the new longer barrel and compensator. The claim that the .460 Rowland can still shoot factory .45ACP rounds is somewhat false. They fire, but fail to eject. The 24 lb recoil spring is just too much for that particular loading -- no real surprise there though. The recoil was definitely less than the officer's model 1911 though. Not sure if it was the compensator or just the added weight of the fully loaded G21. I was too lazy to break out the chrono to see the difference in MV.

I stumbled across 16 lbs of Longshot in my reloading room that I had forgotten about, so it looks like I might have an acceptable powder.

[longbow]

I have to get hold of my friend to find out if he made any progress with his gun. He has a Dlask Arms 1911 that wouldn't feed a 250 gr. RNFP and he didn't want to mess with the gun himself so was going to take it to Dlask to see what could be done. He was determined to use a heavy boolit in the .45-08.

I asked this early on but will repeat here since I see some new names posting.

Has anyone done testing between high velocity light boolits and heavier slower boolits?

The original idea of the .45-08 was to shoot a 200 gr. boolit/bullet at high velocity which seems to me to be the wrong way to go for bear protection. I would have thought that a heavier boolit/bullet would be the way to go for penetration.

I have found load data for boolits up to 275 grs. for 1911's and one of our members sent me an article on heavy boolits for use in 1911's that was interesting.

Anyway, just curious if anyone has done penetration testing comparisons or even better ~ shot a large critter(s) with both lightweight or heavy boolits from a .45 ACP, .45-08, .45 Super, .460 Rowland or similar.

Longbow

[robertbank]

Longbow did you ever get hold of Gunner C at Armco. He should be able to tell you why he went with the 200 gr boolit for bear protection. I know he told me he and others in Pr. George did quite a bit of testing on dead bears with their 45-08 cartridge.

Take Care

Bob

[longbow]

Bob:

I tried e-mailing and didn't get a response. My friend is the guy that got brass and had the information but he wanted some help with working up loads so asked me to help out.

As mentioned, he ran into feeding issues and didn't want to mess with the gun himself so was going to get it to Joe Dlask to see what he could do. I suspect it just needs some work on the feed ramp to suit the longer FP boolits but that is speculation on my part.

I got distracted by a series of "life" events and didn't hear back. I have been busy and distracted for several months and really forgot about this until a couple of weeks ago. Hard to believe I was collecting load data last winter! Almost a year now.

In any case, I have not heard from my friend since last spring. It is about time I call to see if he got the gun working or if he got eaten by a bear.

Maybe we will get back to it again. I was looking forward to load development.

Longbow

[robertbank]

After you make contact remember I have two loads I have used using the 200gr LSWC which was Gunnar's choice and the bullet the guides were using in their guns. Driving a hard cast 200gr LSWC at 1350 fps is going to get the notice of any bear reasonably quick.

Take Care

Bob

[dougader]

Beartooth 265 WFNGC over 9 grains Blue Dot gets me right at 1,000 fps in 45 Super brass and a 6" ported barrel.

[Big Boomer]

Have been following this thread closely. I have a couple of .45 ACPs (an old SS Chas Daly and a Dan Wesson PointeMan II) and got the bright (or dim?) idea of using a .45 Colt boolit (RNFP) that weighs 251 grs. of my fairly soft alloy. A reduced load of 3.5 grs. Red Dot with both pistols stock from factory seems to provide an authoritative round that feeds slick as grease. Recoil is not at all an issue and penetration in wood is impressive. Accuracy is better than with any boolit or jacketed thingy so far. Am thinking of using this as a carry round around the farm and elsewhere. Just have to use suspenders with an IWB holster because I'm kinda' skinny, 6' 3" and 200 lbs. Hard to hide a full-size 1911 on my frame. Big Boomer

[robertbank]

Have been following this thread closely. I have a couple of .45 ACPs (an old SS Chas Daly and a Dan Wesson PointeMan II) and got the bright (or dim?) idea of using a .45 Colt boolit (RNFP) that weighs 251 grs. of my fairly soft alloy. A reduced load of 3.5 grs. Red Dot with both pistols stock from factory seems to provide an authoritative round that feeds slick as grease. Recoil is not at all an issue and penetration in wood is impressive. Accuracy is better than with any boolit or jacketed thingy so far. Am thinking of using this as a carry round around the farm and elsewhere. Just have to use suspenders with an IWB holster because I'm kinda' skinny, 6' 3" and 200 lbs. Hard to hide a full-size 1911 on my frame. Big Boomer

If you get the sun behind you with that load you likely will be able to see the bullets on it's way to the target. I shot some of those bullets at an IPSC match and you could see them streak to the target.

Take Care

Bob

[Big Boomer]

You don't have to be shooting relatively "slow" bullets or boolits to see them streaking toward the target if the sun is behind you. An old friend had a .454 Casull and one day years ago we were shooting at 25 yds. I was sitting beside him at the shooting bench and watching with binoculars to see where the bullets would impact. After the first shot, I said, "Hey, you've got to watch while I shoot your Casull one time and tell me what you see!" When I fired the Casull, he said: "I saw the bullet streak through the air!" And those were full power loads, too. I've seen that a number of times with handguns, never with a rifle, though. Big Boomer

[scattershot]

Big Boomer, any idea of the velocity of those rounds?

[Groo]

Groo here
Just order some Doubletap 450 SMC 250gr loads , add a shokbuff, and shoot a few for function.
Then carry the rest.

[Big Boomer]

We were not shooting over a chronograph so I can only guess around 1,500 fps. However, I remember the recoil vividly. My old buddy always liked top end loads, like with heaping amounts of H110 or W296. Big Boomer

[scattershot]

Sorry, I meant the 45 ACP load, ith 3.5 RD and the 251 grain boolit.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I have loaded hot 45 acps in my G21 with a 24# recoil spring and Jarvis barrel. I comfortably shoot 230 grain XTPs right at 1150 FPS. That load was 9.5 grains of Longshot. Cases show zero signs of pressure and I feel I could go a tad heavier but we don't have bear in central Illinois LOL!

No special compensators or special mags.

[Big Boomer]

scattershot: Do not know the fps of my 251 gr. boolit out of my 1911s over 3.5 gr. RD. I'm thinking it has to be less that 800 fps. But the penetration ... I use 6"X6" treated posts (with 2"X6"s & 2"X8"s on front and back) to catch as much of my lead as possible and a few of those 251s are making my posts bulge. Hard to stop a train. Big Boomer

[makicjf]

I'll shoot , maybe to often, a lee 252 swc over 6.0-6.3 of unique seated to 1.204 from a Rock Island 1911. I have an EGW flat bottom pin stop, an 18.5 wolf spring and a 23 LBS main spring in it. No feed issues, case ejection is 6 feet ( with the 23 lbs main spring a bit over 8 feet with the factory, which I think was 19 lbs) and the group well. I loaded a mountain of these for my 625 which it loved. Ended up with a SRH in 454, moon clipped it and figured, eh, I don"t need two DA revolvers that can shoot 45 ACP and I want a GP100... So I traded the 625 for a GP100 and cash in my pocket. I love the GP100... but the 454 SRH will not shoot 45 acp worth a hoot ( long cylinder , twist rate... little details I did not think of in my brilliance). The load is within pressure specs according to speer, and the oal leaves more case capacity than the speer 260 bullet listed in #12. I guess the FPS at 850ish.... which makes my 1911 a semi auto 8+1 45 colt.... I would not add any more umph, but these seem to work well in my 1911 as it is set up.
Jason

[skiddyfisk]

I have a well-overbuilt 45 carbine, my deer load out of it is 14.5 grains of blue dot with a 230 grain XTP at 1.25", they hover around 1600 FPS at the muzzle. I could probably play higher with super brass and rifle primers but I don't feel that I need to. I wouldn't attempt this out of a pistol in any case.

[taco650]

Longbow,

After reading this whole thread, I can't help but think your friend would've saved $$$ in the long run by just buying G20, a Lonewolf barrel and some Buffalo Bore 10mm loads. I know Glocks aren't nearly as sexy as any 1911 but they just plain work and if I needed bear repellant in a semi-auto form, the G20 is the way I'd go. The G20 also holds twice as many rounds as the 1911. Food for thought.

[frank505]

After reading this whole thread, I'm gratified to see of other experiences with heavy loads in a 1911 such as a 250 NOE running 925 from my Commander. 230s are at 950. In an aluminum frame SIG c3.

[longbow]

I don't think it is just any old semi auto he wants to use, it is his favourite and familiar 1911. My suggestion was to get a .44 mag or bigger for bear protection. His response was that he is proficient and comfortable with his 1911 so want to use that.

Me. I would be looking at a 12 ga. with solid slugs or round ball or something like a .45-70. However, as has been said, the handgun you have at your side is better than the rifle or shotgun leaning against the tree.

His choice is his 1911.

I will call him this weekend to see where he got to with his gun.

Also, thanks for all the responses. This is great stuff!

Longbow

[robertbank]

I have loaded hot 45 acps in my G21 with a 24# recoil spring and Jarvis barrel. I comfortably shoot 230 grain XTPs right at 1150 FPS. That load was 9.5 grains of Longshot. Cases show zero signs of pressure and I feel I could go a tad heavier but we don't have bear in central Illinois LOL!

No special compensators or special mags.

Remember my friend you want penetration for bears. Solids with a flat meplat are ideal. One reason why the guides in Pr. George went with 200 gr LSWC was for penetration. Drive them fast enough and they aren't likely going to stop at the first rib they hit. As a good friend says down in Kitimat, break a bears hip and they stop quick, a spine they stop quick. Pretty much anywhere else and you just get bit. Remember we aren't hunting them in this thread we are trying to stop an attack, not the same thing.

Up here a good defense is making lots of noise. No health care in the bush and unless a bear is hungry they usually don't want anything to do with us two legged predictors.

Take Care

Bob

[warboar_21]

I would think by buying a .460 Roland barrel for his favorite 1911 he would have his cake and be able to eat it too. I think the kits are in the $250-$300 price range.

[NavyVet1959]

I would think by buying a .460 Roland barrel for his favorite 1911 he would have his cake and be able to eat it too. I think the kits are in the $250-$300 price range.

Not all 1911s can be converted to .460 Rowland though. Plus, according to the designer of the .460 Rowland, you must have a compensator. I've built a G21 in .460 Rowland, but with the barrel length and compensator that I went with, I cannot use any of my existing holsters for it. The compensator hangs up on the kydex holsters. I'm thinking that a holster styled like the old 1911 flap type holster might be more appropriate for it.

[NavyVet1959]

Tried 11.0 gr of Longshot in my G21 .460 Rowland-ish conversion utilizing magnum primers, a 230 gr powdercoated cast TC Lee bullet, and regular .45 ACP brass. Brass ejected very well. Still trying to find one piece of it. I've narrowed it down to a 20x20 area -- in other words, it's somewhere in my garage. :)

Loading the rounds at max OAL of 1.275" resulted in extreme difficulty cycling a round out of the chamber manually.

Since I'm using regular length brass and I don't want to chance loading it in a .45 ACP handgun that has not been converted, I am using red powdercoat on all the bullets for the hot loads.

So far, my bullet trap in my garage is holding up to everything that I've thrown at it.

[jwp475]

i am pretty sure that a heavier spring just beats hell out of your gun going into battery.
the bullet should be out of the barrel before the action ever begins to move so spring strength really does very little except slap your slide forward much harder.





Interesting thesis but a bit misdirected. The spring absorbs the rearward energy created when the boolit is moving down the barrel. More mass to move, at the same velocity yields more energy to absorb. The recoil spring for the 185 gr SWC I use is about 12# but the one for the 230gr RN is 22#. You are correct that the force has to go somewhere when the slide returns to battery, so there is more forward force in the heavier spring. The trade off being 'felt recoil' (lighter spring yields more felt recoil) and the battering your gun receives by not absorbing the rearward force in the spring.

Either way, the energy has to go somewhere. Those darned physics guys, any way.



Acctualy 300 Savage is correct and that is the way my 45 Super is set up. The lug engagement was increased so that the pressure is lower when the pistol unlocks. I run an 18.5 pound spring. I shoot Buffalo Bore and Underwood 255 grain flat point 45 Super and get around 1080 FPS a very good hard hitting load from a 1911.

[robertbank]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by DRNurse1 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=2523810#post2523810)
"Interesting thesis but a bit misdirected. The spring absorbs the rearward energy created when the boolit is moving down the barrel. More mass to move, at the same velocity yields more energy to absorb. The recoil spring for the 185 gr SWC I use is about 12# but the one for the 230gr RN is 22#. You are correct that the force has to go somewhere when the slide returns to battery, so there is more forward force in the heavier spring. The trade off being 'felt recoil' (lighter spring yields more felt recoil) and the battering your gun receives by not absorbing the rearward force in the spring.

Either way, the energy has to go somewhere. Those darned physics guys, any way."

The highlighted statement cannoy be true. The barrel does not unlock until the bullet has left the barrel and any spring compression would be insignificant until after the bullet has gone.

Take Care

Bob

[Bearbait in NM]

Bob,

Kinda a yes and no to that. There is some amount of spring load that first tenth of an inch or so. But clearly not the bulk of the poundage that the spring exercises when fully compressed at full rearward position. If you shoot Rowlands or Supers with conventional Wolff springs of whatever weight, you will find that the the Wolff springs take a shorter over all length set pretty quickly. I personally feel that in the 1911, the flat firing pin stop and correct main (hammer) spring is more important than this little bit of "locking" spring load, but I did switch over to ISMI chrome silicon springs, as they do not get this shorter OAL set as quickly as the Wolff's. And in my Rowlands, a 20lb ISMI works great.

The 1911, imho is absolutely at the edge of design with Rowlands, Supers and probably 10mm, although I have not owned a 10. The idea that the energy has to go someplace is correct. With the flat fps mod, more stress on the hammer, hammer pin, mainspring and housing (and parts). With ultra heavy recoil (action) springs, definitely a lot more stress on the barrel lugs, cross pin etc. The other consideration that is often neglected on the recoil spring is the possibilty of bullet setback when feeding. Been down this road, and have one blown out slide as my reward.

With over a half dozen Rowland fits since about 2000, and fiddling with the 45 Super for the last 3 or 4 years, my idea of a proper build is to address the fit of the barrel upper and lower lugs, run a flat firing pin stop with 25lb main (hammer) spring, a 20 lb ismi recoil spring and the barrel comp on the Rowland or the comp on a Super if pushing the Super into Rowland territory, which can be done safely. These days, I find myself carrying my 45 Super with 250 grainish lead or plated bullets doing right around 1075 fps. And my S&W 625PC does just fine with this range.

Craig

[longbow]

Finally an update! Nothing very earthshaking though.

I got hold of my friend who I haven't seen since about this time last year.

He has settled on a 255 gr. SWC after getting some feed ramp work done on the gun but is using new .45 ACP brass and just slightly heavy loads. he says he is getting just under 1000 FPS with the 255 gr. boolits and feeding is good.

He had some trouble with his .45-08 brass bulging when he seated boolits. He said it appeared that the cases had not been reamed to correct diameter. In any case he dropped the .45-08 idea and just settled on stout loads under heavy boolits.

And here I was looking forward to some load development! Oh well.

Anyway, thanks to all who posted and especially those who provided info and load data.

Longbow

[45r]

If his 45 wears out he might want to get a 10mm.
I like it over my 45.

[StrawHat]

Finally an update! Nothing very earthshaking though.

I got hold of my friend who I haven't seen since about this time last year.

He has settled on a 255 gr. SWC after getting some feed ramp work done on the gun but is using new .45 ACP brass and just slightly heavy loads. he says he is getting just under 1000 FPS with the 255 gr. boolits and feeding is good.

He had some trouble with his .45-08 brass bulging when he seated boolits. He said it appeared that the cases had not been reamed to correct diameter. In any case he dropped the .45-08 idea and just settled on stout loads under heavy boolits.

And here I was looking forward to some load development! Oh well.

Anyway, thanks to all who posted and especially those who provided info and load data.

Longbow

Thank you for the update. He should be well served with the heavier boolit in the ACP brass.

Kevin

[NavyVet1959]

Well, here's what my G21 looked like after the conversion. I call it a .45 SUPER +P+ since even though it's built to the .460 Rowland pressure level, I'm using normal length brass in it.

https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQ WFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/glock-21-45-super-+p+-320.jpg

[DougGuy]

Heh 5 pages of posts, y'all have made this SO MUCH HARDER than it really is. USE A .45 WIN MAG AND TELL YER BUDDY TO GET OVER IT!

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Guns/GrizzlyWinMag_zpswuunjhwu.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Guns/GrizzlyWinMag_zpswuunjhwu.jpg.html)

EDIT: Find these on Gunbroker Groo! vvvv

[Groo]

Groo here
Yaw but their not made now [ darn]

[longbow]

I have no argumnet about going .45 Win Mag. but my buddy wants to use what he always uses and that is his Dlask 1911 in .45 ACP. That's his choice.

Me, I would go at least .44 mag. in a revolver.

Different strokes.

Longbow

[robertbank]

Doug Guy Longbow is on the other side of the 49th. Gunbroker is for all intent and purpose not an option.

Longbow if your friend is really getting 1,000 fps using a 255 gr bullet then he is way over pressure for the 45acp case. The gun will take the pressure the case won't.

Take Care

Bob

[lar45]

The TZZ Isralie Military brass is rather strong. It's thicker so you'll have to reduce your load some, but it should take the pressure.

[huntersdog]

Great post! Ton of great information in this thread.

[huntersdog]

Well, here's what my G21 looked like after the conversion. I call it a .45 SUPER +P+ since even though it's built to the .460 Rowland pressure level, I'm using normal length brass in it.

https://www.googledrive.com/host/0B8A9o0AImjXHfmlSQWdFVFRfSmd6d19mTG1jVXUzRWhrZk1KQ WFvdjJidlFtUERRcXh3M1k/glock-21-45-super-+p+-320.jpg



The a pretty reliable setup there, with the lone wolf barrel and comp.

[NavyVet1959]

The a pretty reliable setup there, with the lone wolf barrel and comp.

I just need to find an appropriate holster so that it will not snag when I'm drawing it if I need it while hog hunting. That compensator snags on the standard kydex open bottom style holster.

[kingrj]

Acctualy 300 Savage is correct and that is the way my 45 Super is set up. The lug engagement was increased so that the pressure is lower when the pistol unlocks. I run an 18.5 pound spring. I shoot Buffalo Bore and Underwood 255 grain flat point 45 Super and get around 1080 FPS a very good hard hitting load from a 1911.

As a .45 Super fan I have read reams of post regarding the requirement of a super stiff recoil spring to allow an stock .45 acp to handle the increased power of the Super..Being an engineer I just had to find out for myself so I started with conservation of momentum and calculated final slide velocity at the recoil stop for my Smith and Wesson 4506 using a 200 grain bullet at 900 fps and then at my chronographed Super load of 1230 fps. The force on the slide/barrel unit prior to unlock with the acp load is 3821 Newtons of force..With the Super load it is 7153 Newtons! By comparison the 18# recoil spring puts only 17 Newtons of resisting force on the slide/barrel unit at firing!!! The TOTAL energy absorbed by the recoil spring at full slide travel is defined by the equation KE=1/2K(x squared) where K is the spring constant and "x" is the distance in meters it is compressed. With the 18# spring the total energy absorbed during slide recoil is only 1.2 Joules as compared to the energy of the slide at lock back of 18.7 Joules!!! As you can see it doesn't matter how big a recoil spring you install on your Super...it only has a minimal effect on the final energy the slide has when it hits the end stop. By comparison the standard acp load hits the stop with 9.5 Joules of kinetic energy...So lets "change" the spring from an 18# to a 28# recoil spring and run the simulation again for the super load. This absorbs a little more energy and the final slide energy is "only" 18.0 Joules!!! You would have to put a 100# spring on these guns to get a substantial reduction in battering of the gun on recoil..So...SLIDE/BARREL MASS is the critical factor in a successful Super convertion..NOT recoil spring. Some have recommended stronger main springs and square bottom firing pin stops to 1911 guns. This is a logical and good mod and if I was converting a 1911 I would do the same but super heavy recoil springs only batter the gun on closing and force one to use high power magazine springs so the closing slide does not overstrip the cartridge. NOTHING you can do to a normal .45 acp will decrease the effect of the much higher momentum impulse of the .45 super and its resulting increased wear on the gun other than adding lots of slide/barrel mass. The only way you can make a gun "live" with the much higher pressure .45 Rolland is by fitting a heavy comp on the barrel. If anyone is interested I have made a spread sheet calculator for calculating slide velocities for any combo of bullet weights, slide weights, barrel weights, powder charges, spring rates..I have it on dropbox and can share if you want to play with it.

[akraven]

If anyone is interested I have made a spread sheet calculator for calculating slide velocities for any combo of bullet weights, slide weights, barrel weights, powder charges, spring rates..I have it on dropbox and can share if you want to play with it.

Kingrj thank you for applying your engineering knowledge so we have a true idea whats going on with facts rather than just guesstimates. I would really like to look at your spreadsheet calculator. Have to you looked at/calculated the effects of a comp? It doesn't change barrel/slide mass but changes the effect of slide speed. Thanks again for your work!!

[Artful]

Well as long as we are stirring an old cold pot. 20+ years or is it 30 now back in the late 80's, I was reading Dean Grennell's 45 Super stuff, at first I didn't have 451 brass or trimmer accessories so I took a page from Dean's early experiments and loaded my heavy loads in WW2 steel cases and changed out my standard spring to a Detonic's double spring with stronger firing pin spring.

I was loading hard cast RCBS 255 SWC over BlueDot loads to spitting distance of 1,000 fps.
And the pistol as set up would still function with HardBall ammo. Eventually I got set up to cut down 308 or 451 cases. But by then I had moved to overloading 45 colt in Ruger Blackhawk, enough that the cylinder pin was moving forward.

If you friend wants to 45 superize his pistol at this point I think you should look at 460 rowland conversion parts, as I have not seen ACE customer 1911's offered in quite some time.

[kingrj]

Kingrj thank you for applying your engineering knowledge so we have a true idea whats going on with facts rather than just guesstimates. I would really like to look at your spreadsheet calculator. Have to you looked at/calculated the effects of a comp? It doesn't change barrel/slide mass but changes the effect of slide speed. Thanks again for your work!!

This link https://www.dropbox.com/s/7st1nsoqn0g51kz/SlideVelocityCalculator.xlsx?dl=0 Will get you into my drop box and allow you to download this file. The numbers listed for barrel weights and slide weights as well as the distances for unlock and total slide travel are specific for a full sized 4506 but can be changed for any browning type action auto... I have NOT included calculations for the effect of a comp because I would have to teach myself fluid dynamics (i am an electrical engineer LOL!) in order to be able to calculate the reverse thrust provided by a comp. AND the actual design of the comp, nozzle configurations, gas pressures etc are so varied that it would require a great amount of work to add this into the program. However..I am retired and like a good challenge so I may look into that! The basic theory for my calculator is simply the totally elastic conservation of momentum transferred from the bullet to the slide/barrel unit. The slide/barrel unit travel together for the unlock distance then the slide continues at that same velocity (assuming that the bullet has already left the barrel prior to unlock) I then calculate the kinetic energy of the slide then subtract the total kinetic energy absorbed by the recoil spring during the slide travel which results in an adjusted final kinetic energy and velocity for the slide when it hits the stop. You will notice some additional calculations below the actual spread sheet where I calculate the bullet time in the barrel, acceleration rate of the bullet and make sure that the bullet has left the barrel prior to unlock! I suppose it is possible to use a heavy enough bullet to unlock the barrel prior to leaving the barrel (a very bad thing indeed!) but I have not played around trying to determine it...

[akraven]

Thank you Kingrj for the spreadsheetcalculator. I will spend some time playing with that!

[kingrj]

It may appear from my two previous post that I am discouraging the "conversion" of the .45 acp to .45 Super. Nothing could be further from the truth and I am a Super fan! I deer hunt with my 4506 Super and I have had NO durability issues with the gun but then again I don't shoot it 5,000 times a year either. My point was that just changing the recoil spring is NOT going to reduce the recoil impulse of a Super to the normal ACP level...And some increase in gun wear is likely to be experienced if many rounds are fired through the gun...I however, suspect my Super will easily outlive me and I don't worry about it.

[longbow]

I had missed the extra posts since 2015 but noticed this last one. Interesting stuff.

Again, I haven't seen this fellow in a while so no updates except I maybe should have added that he told me he used to shoot approx. 15,000 rounds/year through his 1911 to stay proficient. He doesn't shoot that much anymore but that's the reason he wanted to use his 1911... familiarity and being comfortable with the gun. Of course he wouldn't have been shooting thousands or even hundreds of .45-08 rounds/per year, just load development/practice then carrying a few rounds for protection in the bush. We have lots of black bears here and now the grizzly population is getting unnervingly large.

In his case, he wouldn't likely shoot more than a very few .45-08's a year so not likely too much threat to the longevity of the gun.

I was looking forward to the load development and a good reason to get to the range. I have not been shooting much for some time due to a variety of factors but mostly too many things going on and not enough time. Got to make time!

Thanks all for the information. I have it stored away in case I ever decide to take this route.

Longbow

[Hans Gruber]

As a .45 Super fan I have read reams of post regarding the requirement of a super stiff recoil spring to allow an stock .45 acp to handle the increased power of the Super..Being an engineer I just had to find out for myself so I started with conservation of momentum and calculated final slide velocity at the recoil stop for my Smith and Wesson 4506 using a 200 grain bullet at 900 fps and then at my chronographed Super load of 1230 fps. The force on the slide/barrel unit prior to unlock with the acp load is 3821 Newtons of force..With the Super load it is 7153 Newtons! By comparison the 18# recoil spring puts only 17 Newtons of resisting force on the slide/barrel unit at firing!!! The TOTAL energy absorbed by the recoil spring at full slide travel is defined by the equation KE=1/2K(x squared) where K is the spring constant and "x" is the distance in meters it is compressed. With the 18# spring the total energy absorbed during slide recoil is only 1.2 Joules as compared to the energy of the slide at lock back of 18.7 Joules!!! As you can see it doesn't matter how big a recoil spring you install on your Super...it only has a minimal effect on the final energy the slide has when it hits the end stop. By comparison the standard acp load hits the stop with 9.5 Joules of kinetic energy...So lets "change" the spring from an 18# to a 28# recoil spring and run the simulation again for the super load. This absorbs a little more energy and the final slide energy is "only" 18.0 Joules!!! You would have to put a 100# spring on these guns to get a substantial reduction in battering of the gun on recoil..So...SLIDE/BARREL MASS is the critical factor in a successful Super convertion..NOT recoil spring. Some have recommended stronger main springs and square bottom firing pin stops to 1911 guns. This is a logical and good mod and if I was converting a 1911 I would do the same but super heavy recoil springs only batter the gun on closing and force one to use high power magazine springs so the closing slide does not overstrip the cartridge. NOTHING you can do to a normal .45 acp will decrease the effect of the much higher momentum impulse of the .45 super and its resulting increased wear on the gun other than adding lots of slide/barrel mass. The only way you can make a gun "live" with the much higher pressure .45 Rolland is by fitting a heavy comp on the barrel. If anyone is interested I have made a spread sheet calculator for calculating slide velocities for any combo of bullet weights, slide weights, barrel weights, powder charges, spring rates..I have it on dropbox and can share if you want to play with it.

Now THIS is the kind of post I really like! Your statements go directly to a question I've been researching for the last month since I decided to do a 1911 .460R conversion. I already built a .460R on a Glock 20 frame with LWD long slide, 6.61" barrel, muzzle brake, 24# recoil spring, and SS solid guide rod with the capture screw lock-tited out a few turns to correct a tendency for Glock conversions to fail to go into battery that last bit.

With the Glock conversion, there is no hammer, or hammer spring to resist slide opening so the entire system relies on the brake, and barrel friction, and even at the earliest point of unlocking, as you pointed out, the 24# spring is exerting very little closing force. The fact that I've shot several hundred rounds of Underwood .460R from the Glock without a hitch assures me the conversion is safe and quite reliable, yet it does seem the gun relies heavily on the LWD muzzle brake to delay slide unlocking, and having said that, using factory stock 10 round, single-stack mags the slide picks up the rounds reliably without added springs. Okay, so there's that....

Now we come to my real question...with the Clark .460R drop-in conversion, my first inclination is to use the 24# spring as instructed by both Clark and "the internet" yet then I read about the more effective method of using a flat bottom FPS and heavier mainspring as the primary means of resisting slide opening...and this makes sense based on my knowledge of how the Browning 1919A4 LMG works using a spring-loaded, "rocker" that is cocked as the breech mass moves rearward and as it goes forward is "tripped" to add a "kick" to force all that mass fully into closure. So basically, the use of leverage is a proven means of adding force that is far superior to a near fully extended coil spring. Come to think about it. the Beretta Tomcat also uses spring-loaded, twin levers to power the slide. So the burning question in my mind concerning the 1911 .460R conversion is...is a 24# spring really "needed" during the ignition, barrel-time, compensator offset phase of shooting? Granted the slide on a 1911 is lighter than that on a Glock, but not nearly as much as one might think....even on my long slide version the slide is about 3 ounces heavier...with LITTLE forward closing force save for the recoil spring and it should be pointed out, this force is being counteracted to some degree by the cocked striker trying to pull the slide open!
Hammer down, the act of manipulating the slide on the 1911 with 24# spring is much harder than with the Glock. So, during firing, since as you stated the extended recoil spring's "force" is quite small, this would suggest all the rearward thrust is countered by hammer leverage and mainspring pressure, combined with barrel friction "pulling" the barrel forward, combined with the compensator adding additional forward thrust as the bullet exits the barrel. On the other end, it seems rapid cycling is a major problem that causes failure to strip a round, excessive closing force that can exacerbate nose dive and bullet set-back, and possibly result in accelerated frame wear. So...based on much of what I've read about competition "comp'd" pistols, and what you so elegantly explained here, there is little practical reason to use a 24# spring. I've read some "experts" talking about using .45 ammo that makes "major" in compensated guns with recoil springs as light as 12 pounds! And these are guys who shoot thousands of rounds! This may sound insane until one considers the standard 1911 recoil spring weight is only 16 pounds...no doubt a comp will allow a lighter spring. Granted the .460R is a bit more than twice as "powerful" as generic "hardball" ammo, but if the recoil spring is really doing very little more at full closure why not drop back to the 20# for improved feeding reliability? In fact I remember reading where one guy stated that's exactly what he did and all his feeding issues went away without multi-spring magazines.

I realize I may be trying to compare apples to avocados here, but it just seems that if a hammerless Glock system with comp installed can "live" with a 24# spring, a hammer-fired, comp'd, 1911 might do better with LESS recoil spring that seems "common sense."

I know all the .45 Super aficionados talk about 28# springs, plus 25# mainsprings, and flat bottom FPS, but they aren't running compensators "Anecdotal" comments by those own .460R conversions seems to be that the guns are not heavily stressed at all thanks to the compensator.

So what's your take on all this...if any?

[35remington]

The 1911 can be safely fired in 45 ACP with no recoil spring in the gun at all. What does that tell you about the role of the spring in barrel unlock timing?

[35remington]

Consider also what is hard on the gun is pressure. Multitudinous stress risers are found in the right angles near the breechface of the slide. It is a bit silly to worry just about the frame when the slide sees increased stresses we can do nothing about.

[35remington]

There is a very real risk of oversprung guns outrunning 1911 magaznes as they have relatively weak
sptings. Heavy springs slow rearward slide velocity relatively little at all while they speed forward travel up quite a bit.

[vzerone]

I won't run a heavy recoil spring in my 1911 for the exact reason you fellows just posted. I have a question. It's come to my attention that if you hold the slide on a 1911 in a safe manner and fire the pistol that the slide won't unlock or come back. I just won't try it, but what are your opinions on this?

[35remington]

Butt the rear of the slide against a square wood post if you are chicken. Tell us if the case comes out.

Wanna guess what happens? With standard loads slide speed is in the 15-20 mph range at peak.
FWIW.

[vzerone]

I'd rather ask you, what happens? LOL

[35remington]

Assuming a 1300 fps 230 load in a standard weight uncomped 5 inch 1911 slide velocity at peak would be about 28 mph.

[35remington]

The case does not eject because the slide is not driven that hard.

[Stuckcase]

I’ve been working this whole spiel over for many years. The single most important factor that I have found to be universal in “taming” slide velocity is the addition of a quality compensator. Used in tandem with an adequate spring, meaning attention being paid to ejection distance, and a beefy slide like the FNX T slide. I believe I have finally found the perfect marriage.

My current abomination:
FNX Tactical 45 ACP barrel
Yankee Hill Machine 3 port comp
24# Rowland RSA
+power Para 16 springs in the mags
Not responsible for anybody duplicating this load and going boom! My gun, my set up!

255 gr SWC cast in a lee mold
Sized .451
Lubed with 50/50 beeswax and crisco
11 gr of 800X
Sig brass
CCI 300 primer
COL of 1.178”
Heavy crimp with Lee FCD

That being said back down to 9 grains with the RNFP and work up.

[akraven]

Not responsible for anybody duplicating this load and going boom! My gun, my set up!

255 gr SWC cast in a lee mold
Sized .451
Lubed with 50/50 beeswax and crisco
11 gr of 800X
Sig brass
CCI 300 primer
COL of 1.178”
Heavy crimp with Lee FCD


Stuckcase what are you fps for that load?

[Stuckcase]

Stuckcase what are you fps for that load?

That pistol is no longer with me. It could not withstand the Rowland pressure levels. I utilize a Kimber Aegis Elite modified to accomplish the task now. A 9.5 gr 800x load behind that bullet with a Rem 9 1/2 large rifle primer yields 1282 FPS at 948 ft lbs. my two favorite loads are a Lee 230 gr TC coated with Eastwood’s light blue coating on top of 12.5 gr of Blue Dot and CcI primers and a 186 gr Lyman Devastator on top of 13 gr 800x and Rem 9 1/2 large rifle primer. It is 1530 FPS at 965 ft lbs and the 230 is 1235 FPS at 848 ft lbs. the Kimber now has over 4000 of these types of rounds through it. I use Super brass and Large Rifle primers regularly now. You can watch some of my vids on YouTube and see it in action.

[Kosh75287]

Without reading through 6 pages of posts, can you tell me IF you installed a firing pin stop with a square bottom, rather than the usual rounded one? I was wondering how much it might have helped lower slide velocity. MY current project is to develop a load that will launch a 215 gr. SAECO #58 SWC at just over 1000 f/s, without going the way of the .460 Rowland or other similar rounds (though I may use .45 Super brass, for the thicker case web).

[Stuckcase]

Without reading through 6 pages of posts, can you tell me IF you installed a firing pin stop with a square bottom, rather than the usual rounded one? I was wondering how much it might have helped lower slide velocity. MY current project is to develop a load that will launch a 215 gr. SAECO #58 SWC at just over 1000 f/s, without going the way of the .460 Rowland or other similar rounds (though I may use .45 Super brass, for the thicker case web).

Yes, I do. It is a hand fitted EGW. My purpose was two fold with it. One, in combination with the heavier main spring, to apply spring tension to the rearward thrust of the slide at its initial and most critical phase (if you can impede initial force you will therefore reduce slide velocity) and two, prevent extractor clocking. My MIM extractor would not make the cut and had to be changed in favor of an Ed Brown hardcore. The combination of the two with the tight hand fitting has eliminated many extraction issues.

[ddixie884]

Interesting stuff...........

[charlie b]

This has been interesting and quite informative to me. I had a 1911 that was custom fitted and it gave me problems with extraction. I thought it was recoil spring related but never found one that worked. Now am wondering if it was simply too much friction in the fitted areas.

That also reminds me of the Colt Delta. Colt chambered for the 10mm and they used a long slide. Now I can see that they might have done it to tame the slide velocity with some extra mass in slide and barrel.

With a comp, I also wonder if you could start with a Commander length slide and a longer barrel with larger/heavier comp on it. If someone could come up with numbers I have a Commander I would not mind testing with this combo.

[RJM52]

Colt Deltas are standard 5" slides/barrels, don't have a ramped barrel and also they didn't use a flat bottom firing pin stop...they were also known to beat themselves to death if fired with full powered loads.

I'm out of town for a while and don't have my loading data with me but am using a 240 Keith .45 AR bullet which is running at 1050+ fps and the Hornady 230 FP at 1100 fps using .45 Super cases and Longshot powder. Had the velocity of each well over that and then backed back down to the Buffalo Bore velocities.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/71573.jpg



The gun is a Kimber Stainless Target II with a 26 or 28 pound mainsping, flat bottom firing pin stop and I believe 22# mainspring. Zero issues with feeding, extraction, ejection and no pressure signs on the Starline brass.

Helped a friend build a Colt Combat Commander in .45 Super at the same time and his gun runs the loads like a well oiled machine... It has the stock non-ramped barrel.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/71570.jpg


240s at 50'

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/71572.jpg


Great round...Bob

[ddixie884]

Nice guns and ammo, Bob.......

[StrawHat]

I'm out of town for a while and don't have my loading data with me but am using a 240 Keith .45 AR bullet which is running at 1050+ fps and the Hornady 230 FP at 1100 fps using .45 Super cases and Longshot powder. Had the velocity of each well over that and then backed back down to the Buffalo Bore velocities.


Great round...Bob

The boolit, 452423? I use that a bit. Wanting to load it to Super ballistics for a couple of my revolvers.

Kevin