Caliber .375 Whelen to Improved or Ackley ?

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Couple of weeks ago snaged a caliber .375 Whelen from JES.
Several members mentioned the potential "headspace" problems so got me to thinking ,"Why not get it rechambered to a chamber more user friendly.
So what are your suggestions ? Anyone actually do the process ? Can you comment on the improvment or lack of ?
Thanks ! Mike in Peru

[Teddy (punchie)]

We have shot the 375 in Ackley, Parker Liked this chamber. That being said she a hand full to shoot, at bench better set her in your breast not shoulder. Also call 375 H&H Imp. 40 I think.

Boy they are hungry on powder and lead, bullets costly. Just not a fun shoot. Friends asked us what in the world can you shoot with that gun?? I would say smarting off "" anything like planes, trains, tractor-trailer trucks"". I'm sure loaded right they can and will take any game animal. I think we just going over bullet energy, an came up with a 700-800 yds. she still had enough to do the job if placed right in animal the size of elk or average bear, moose or large bears 300-400 yds. . If I recall 300 gr. at max 3100 fps. was 6500 lbs.@muzzle. We looked at this because someone said they shot and elk at 800 yds, I said well let us see if it works out and it can.

That about I can say we don't shoot it now just too much and no body is going out west, our 300's are more then need for white tails and black bears.

[seaboltm]

If you don't have a headspace problem, I would not be looking to solve a headspace problem. All Whelen varieties have been criticized for this since the beginning of time. Funny how no one really jabs at the 9.3x62, which should have the same problem, but somehow doesn't. I suppose if the chamber is poorly reamed or if the case is improperly sized a headspace issue can develop with the 375 Whelen, but isn't that true for any cartridge?

[seaboltm]

We have shot the 375 in Ackley, Parker Liked this chamber. That being said she a hand full to shoot, at bench better set her in your breast not shoulder. Also call 375 H&H Imp. 40 I think.

Boy they are hungry on powder and lead, bullets costly. Just not a fun shoot. Friends asked us what in the world can you shoot with that gun?? I would say smarting off "" anything like planes, trains, tractor-trailer trucks"". I'm sure loaded right they can and will take any game animal. I think we just going over bullet energy, an came up with a 700-800 yds. she still had enough to do the job if placed right in animal the size of elk or average bear, moose or large bears 300-400 yds. . If I recall 300 gr. at max 3100 fps. was 6500 lbs.@muzzle. We looked at this because someone said they shot and elk at 800 yds, I said well let us see if it works out and it can.

That about I can say we don't shoot it now just too much and no body is going out west, our 300's are more then need for white tails and black bears.

The 375 H&H Ackley and the 375 Whelen are NOT the same cartridge, nor even close. Nothing in North American needs a 300 grain 375 bullet at 3100 fps! But that would be fun. The standard 375 H&H sends 300 grainers out the barrel at 2500fps+, and not much on the planet can withstand that. 375 Whelen is more like 300 grains at 2100fps, which is not even in the ball park of the H&H. Personally I think the 9.3x62 makes more sense than the Whelen family of cartridges, but I prefer the H&H to all of them. I go straight from 7x57/308/30-06 levels to H&H levels. See no need for anything in the middle, although I do like lever action 45/70's for nostalgia.

[MattOrgan]

Mike,

I've had a standard Whelen and a Brown-Whelen. The Brown version has an Ackley type shoulder and a shorter neck. The velocity difference was slight. I've had AI rifles in .30/30, .257, and .280 and never found them to be worth the cost and effort. If you look at the small percentage of case volume gained by "improving" case shape it becomes obvious that the velocity gain is not going to be more than the 2-4 % that case volume has increased unless you increase pressure. Ackley's books contain loading data I haven't used for 30+ because of high pressures. This greatly reduces any velocity advantage.

Generally re-chambering is not an issue, the original chamber will almost always clean up. The "headspace" issue is a myth. The 35 Whelen headspaces fine and reliably as does the .375 Whelen. We depend on the case mouth to headspace 9 mm, .40, and .45 why wouldn't the shoulder of a Whelen case headspace reliably? All it takes is properly adjusted dies.

On the other hand AI cartridges don't hurt anything and AI cartridges are iconic, everyone should have one at some point.

[mikeym1a]

There was a big discussion on the Whelen series of cartridges a couple months ago, with much info cited and quoted. What I got out of this, if I remember it correctly, was that James Howe designed the cartridges with a 40 degree shoulder. This was a proprietary cartridge. Someone(s) decided to copy the cartridge, and used the '06s shoulder, which apparently caused some problems. The Ackley shoulder was similar to Howe's. If you think there is a headspace problem, then get it reamed to the Ackley version. Cheers! :-D

[Buckshot]

.............I have a 375-06 AI - 40º shoulder.

http://www.fototime.com/7EC0BDD1F8B7152/standard.jpg

Here with a 300gr slug next to a 8x57 with a 210 gr cast 323471.

http://www.fototime.com/7C7D23E1D49E845/standard.jpg

30-'06 at the left end.

http://www.fototime.com/E763D260E176835/standard.jpg

From the left: Hornady 220gr 30cal, NEI 352gr and loaded, NEI 328gr RN, I forget which slug this is, 270gr Hornady SP.

I built it on a lark. A 38-55 is a lot more fun to shoot since there's not to many animals around the neighborhood needing that much killing. It hurts to shoot much and is about as much fun as a hot loaded 45-70 in a Ruger #1. I've never had any head space issues. CH/4D Has the AI-40º shoulder dies as 'In stock' items.

................Buckshot

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Thank you all. I have read every thread I could find in "Search" and this is the icing.
I will certainly take a very close look at the chamber and dies. My idea right now is do a "cero cast" of both and spend some micrometer time. My dies are those that came with the rifle from JES. Power I am not looking for. Just had a hankering for a caliber .375 bolt rifle. From all I have read the caliber .375-06 will do everything I will ever need done and be fun to feed.
Thanks Buckshot for the pictoral. I have not yet considered a 350 grainer. I think my heaviest mold drops at 315-320 grains.
This has been good reading this morning. Thanks everyone !
Mike in Peru

[Stephen Cohen]

Nothing wrong with the 375 Whelen Improved, I had trouble losing head space till I realised the problem was my custom dies and my ignorance. I shot min 4 days ago and just love it. After brother shot mine he had one built as well.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mike: I am posting this article on the .400 Whelan again because it will answer all of your questions on the Whelan .375 and.400. If the rifle was chambered correctly then it will function fine. The difference is in the shoulder dimension which is larger than the .30-06 case dimension. Chambers cut using the .30-06 shoulder dimension and simply necking the cartridge up to .38 or .40 cal are simply Done Wrong.

http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

Howe and Whelan were pretty savvy gun guys and had every facet of the Bolt Action Rifle figured out long before any of us were born and in many cases like mine, before my parents were born.

The article is an interesting read on this subject and will answer all of your question from someone who actually went the extra mile to go to the original source for the information.

Randy

http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

[missionary5155]

Greetings WR and thank you.
That is a very educational read. Going to have to do that agin a few times so it soaks in better.
Mike in Peru

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes Mike: this is a classic example of people who "think they know" making a mess, and a great product suffering. The common "think" was the cartridge was simply a necked up .30-06 case. As we see after reading the article, this was not the case.

I always try to find the source material when entering into a new area of knowledge for me. I find it helps you to weed out the BS on any given subject.. This is especially useful when considering the number of people in this world who are full of BS.

Always seek out,,, "Them that knows!"

If I was addressing something that had been invented by someone with the stature of Whelan, Howe, Neidner, Keith, etc. I am damn sure not going to put a whole lot of faith in what some local yahoo says when he wants to deviate from the established facts. And once again those are facts from people who forgot more about what they were doing than the new guy will ever know.

It took me a while in my younger days to understand that most times I didn't know better than the originators. That doesn't mean that I was always wrong either. I have spent a lifetime learning how to ferret out the truth about why some things are the way they are. The hardest thing of all is to convince the inventor of something that he didn't really understand what he was doing, and that you know more about it than he did.

I have actually successfully done this,,,and more than once. The only way this works is if your way works significantly better than his way did, and you can prove it. Also you must be able to show someone else how to do it. IE; teach it successfully.

Sometimes it is hard to convince others you are right, especially when the guy you are hacking is drinking buddies with the others.

I'm here to tell you,,, It can be done. However in the case of the .400 Whelan fools only made a mess.

Much like the Obamacare debacle is unfolding right before our eyes. Classic example of the same phenomenon in action.

Randy

[missionary5155]

Greetings Randy
Just reread The info. That sure tells the story. Under diameter brass. I wrote myself a note in my 375 Whelen notes to make a cero cast of the chamber and sizing die to check the diameters. Next will be making a cast of the seater to be sure that is proper diameter. Hopefully the dies that came with that rifle are correctly made for that chamber.
I think I will anneal five new 06 brass. Make the proper diameter rod to expand them to the diameter case the chamber needs. Neck them to whatever diameter the chamber / groove needs but leave a shoulder that will butt into the chamber shoulder and fire form them. That should give me real diameter brass. From there I wll probably just neck size them and shoot some stout loads and see how long those cases hold together seriously measuring them for stretching, shoulder setback or whatever. I am sure going to run this barrel / chamber through the works, gather the info and write a report.
Thank you again for that fine article.
Mike in Peru

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mike: inorder to not over stress the case necks you need to expand the necks in steps. about .010 to .015 per step. That way the cases are not being asked to go from .300 to .375 in one step. It would also be a good thing if you could do them in a lathe with the spindle turning slowly with a bunch of lube on the tools and case mouth. IF you made your sizing spud so that it has steps on it you could do it all in one pass. Also doing it while rotating he part will keep the neck concentric to the rest of the cartridge..

I have done a lot of sizing of brass tubing in my shop and this is how we have done it. Brass likes to move at a leisurely pace and as long as you don't force it to do too much at one time you'll be fine.

Also fireforming these cases after you have sized the necks will bring them to the correct size. Then all you have to worry about is your sizing die not squishing them back down to 06 size shoulder dimensions.

RCBS knows exactly what to do to have these dies work and size correctly for these two cartridges. Still a chamber cast will tell you if the barrel is set up correctly. If it isn't then running a proper chamber reamer into it to open up the shoulder area would be the prudent thing to do. I don't know if that would ultimately alter the headspace, and if it did you would have to set the barrel back one thread and rechamber it.

Sounds like a lot of work however sometimes it is necessary to do that much work in order to over ride Bubba's past influence .

Look at it this way, When the gun is right it will be a joy to shoot and reload for. If it isn't right then you just spend all your time trying to make it work, which is less desirable.

That gun with 3/8" cast boolits would be pretty cool for shooting Cowboy Silhouette Matches, especially with Iron Sights. I personally think that would be the highest and best use of that gun, as you are going to shoot it more in one day than you would shoot it in the hunting fields in a lifetime.

My .02 But I am biased towards shooting the Short Range Silhouette games, simply because of the reasons stated above. They also are the best practice for hunting you can get, simply because if you can hit targets off hand with a reasonable degree of frequency you should be able to hit EVERY SINGLE TIME off a rest. Also you become more familiar with the gun by shooting it more, which is a good thing.

There is a rule which was coined by Paco Kelly: It states that for every one hundred yards of distance you plan to shoot at a game animal, you needed to have shot 100 rounds at that distance for practice. If you plan on shooting at an animal at 300 yards then you should have shot 300 shots at that distance in practice.

I feel that this rule is completely valid. If you're going to hunt you need to know how to shoot, and I am talking in the complete sense of the word. Just having a gun and being able to pull the trigger is not enough. There is more to doing this stuff than meets the eye and respect for the animals you shoot at certainly is a part of the game.

Not being able to perform adequately when the time comes shows no respect for the animal at all. Knowing the gun and what is going to happen when you pull the trigger is a big part as is understanding what "Sight Picture" is going to deliver the hits you want across a variety of conditions. These things can only be accomplished thru diligent practice, and when there is a game with a definite goal it makes practicing much more fun.

Randy

[JimP.]

I had a Ruger 25-06 rebored to 375-06 AI. Excellent conversion and the rifle shot very well with any bullet weight used. Brass was easy to make using 35 Whelen brass. Lube the inside of the case mouth and run it into the 375 die to expand the brass, then load 10 grains of Unique and fill all the way up with dry grits or cream of wheat. Fire it in the rifle which blows out the case and makes the brass ready for loading. Simple. JimP.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mike: have you made any progress with your project? I am wanting to see what you come up with.

Randy

[Bullshop]

Mike
If you decide to go the improved rout I have a reamer for the 375 Hawk/Scovill. It would be akin to the Brown Whelen in that is pushes the shoulder forward creating a shorter neck.
Like Buckshot I designed a boolit especially for the cartridge but just happens to work well in others like the H&H and the Ruger. Its a 370gn LFN type design. My load gets about 2250 fps and is an absolute sledge hammer. I once shot a very nice bull caribou with it at about 50 yards. I was shooting iron sights and it was getting dark so I aimed at the shoulder. When I walked over to him I found both antlers on the ground just behind him. I did a double take when I looked at the bald bull I had just shot. The shock of that boolit impact knocked both antlers off his head. On the off side shoulder there was an exit hole about the size of a hard ball.
For the big heavy boolits I shoot I got no appreciable gain in ballistics because the boolit is taking up any gain in powder room going to the Scovill case. I have all the data from the Hawk labs that gives very high velocity with much lighter jacketed bullets. I am sure that with lighter cast boolits it will get very high velocity even higher that the jacketed bullets of the same weight at the same pressure.
I have fired nothing but my custom 370gn boolit with the possible exception of an NEI design for a 320gn RNGC. My purpose for the gun was to use heavy boolits and that so far is all I have used.
I recently brought it out for a back up on a rouge bison bull dispatch. The bull was huge at very near 2000 pounds on the hoof. Sorry to say that the 375 was not needed as the bull fell to my 50 AK 1886 Win. in the hands of another man. Bummer! I really wanted to try the 375 Scovill on it too.
Getting ready for that event I was checking zero on the rifle. I had ammo loaded with the 370gn LFN in both quenched COWW and soft nose with 40gn of pure lead in the nose. My bullet trap a 55 gallon drum turned on end and filled with soft dirt failed each time to stop the solids while the soft nose boolits never left a dent. Each quenched solid sailed right through the length of the dirt filled drum. That is incredible penetration and as you said all you could ever need or ask for for anything you may encounter.
Let me know if you would like to borrow the reamer and we will figure out how to get it to you.

[nekshot]

this is the second time I am reading this thread because of a ***** desire to get jes to do a 444 something in one of my 7oo bolt or my ruger 1.I keep getting this dull throbbing pain in my shoulder till I get thru each time and I must admit I don't have what you fellas have and jes is not gonna get any work out of me very soon, as I think I am turning a little woosy on recoil after looking at buckshots booooolits and listening to your comments! Go for it Mike, them corn crunchers won't have a clue what went thru them!

[missionary5155]

Howdy everyone
I will not be seeing the rifle till June when we get back north. From all I have read The first item is to do the "cero cast" of the chamber and dies. It would be great if they are compatable. From there will stay with the chambering as is and shoot it. Have some 35 Whelen brass waiting to get used. Again I trust they will be compatable with my chamber.

Bullshop.. Thank you for the offer.. have to try what I have first. I would like to see a photo of that .375 370 grainer. Must look like a torpedoe !
Mike in Peru

[Bullshop]

Mike
I am pic challenged but will see if I can get help. Don't worry too much about your dies being compatible with your barrel. I had dies but sold them with one of my rifles. I still load ammo but have to fudge a bit.
I size the case head portion in an FL 444 Marlin die, the I size the neck in a 375 Ruger die. The shoulder never gets touched. A guy has to make due ya know.
Oh I just remembered! I hope its OK to mention this here since I am not really advertising but there is a pic of my 370gn custom design at gunbroker under Bullet man Dan as a seller. You can get a look there.
Mike I am still and always will be thankful for the offer for help you made when I offered up my 1886 for sale. I was able to keep it and things are looking up.
Brother Daniel

[missionary5155]

Howdy Bullshop
I can get to your website so a picture here would be redundant.. Thanks !!
I am glad everything worked out. I would not want to have to turn loose of my 86 even being a 33Win. Those 86's are good ones to hang on to.
Mike in Peru

[dakota]

I’ve just built a 375 Whelen AI.

So far have just tried TAC. 55 grains with 270 grain bullet ok.

I’ve worked up from 50 grains.

With only 20-30 rounds fired, I had one case separation. The cases I used are Federal 35 Whelen necked up.

I don’t blame the manufacturer tho.

The case failure was just in front or above the base. It was on the second firing of that case.

Since then I bent a wire and checked for a possible case separation on the other fired cases. I have no such indication. I plan on running all my cases into a 416 expander, then running into my full length sizing die. BTW, the sizing die and the rifle’s chamber are as close to an exact match as I’ve seen.

[dakota]

Just ordered a NOE mold.

[Buckshot]

...........When I built my 375-'06 a lot of new powders have been introduced, but at that time THE powder touted for that cartridge was IMR 4320.

...........Buckshot

[Multigunner]

A lot of reported problems of shoulder set back were most likely due to use of older milspec cartridge cases that did not have the improvements of post WW1 cartridge cases.

Cartridge case geometry was improved to prevent problems found when using Ball ammo in MGs and other slam loaders.
According to Hatcher the WW1 era .30-06 for example could have the shoulder set back by as much as .006" simply by manipulating the bolt of a 1903 very rapidly, and the Marlin aerial guns due to its high rate of fire and lack of buffering when adapted to the straight gas piston from the colt potato digger linkage had to have the chamber shoulders cut short to compensate for excessive shoulder set back.

Stiffer thicker cases with less aggressive annealing solved that problem. Commercial cases may not have followed suit quite as quickly.

[dakota]

Mine is AI. The dies were available as was the reamer. If it were the other way, I would probably been OK with the standard 375 Whelen.
I shot a .82" group with iron sights at 50 meters and aperture sights. I screwed up and deleted the load info.

[dakota]

I decided to put a scope on my 375WAI. The following are the groups/loads were shot with a suppressor:

375W AI M98, 235 grain SPEER, 61 grains H335, 0.73" group with aperture sights at 54 yards = 1.29 MOA (no suppressor)
375W AI M98, 235 grain SPEER, 61 grains H335, 1.97" group with 4x M8 Leupold at 100 yards = 1.88 MOA
375W AI M98, 235 grain SPEER, 61 grains H335, 1.72" group with 4x M8 Leupold at 100 yards = 1.64 MOA
375W AI M98, 270 grain Horn SP RN, 57 grains H4895, 0.82" group with 4x M8 Leupold at 100 yards = 0.78 MOA
375W AI M98, 270 grain Horn SP BT, 57 grains H4895, 0.66" group with 4x M8 Leupold at 100 yards = 0.63 MOA
375W AI M98, 270 grain Horn SP BT, 57 grains H4895, 0.66" group with 4x M8 Leupold at 100 yards = 0.63 MOA (second group - I couldn't measure any difference)

The 57 grains load with 270 grain bullets are maximum - if you have such a rifle chambered for this cartridge, work up carefully. The good news is the above loads hit at close the same POI at 100 yards. The 61 grains H335 with 235 grain SPEER load centered at about 1/2" higher than the 270 grain loads.

235 grain SPEERS traveling at ~2,800 fps, 3" high at 100 yards, -1.5" at 250 yards, -6" at 300 yards.
270 grain Hornady traveling at ~ 2,600 fps, RN 3" high at 100, -3.9" at 250 yards, -11" at 300 yards.
270 grain Hornady traveling at ~ 2,600 fps, SPBT 3" high at 100, -2.3" at 250 yards, -8" at 300 yards.
The 270 grain Hornady SP BT should be good for anything I'll be shooting at. I have a few hundred of the RN 270's - seconds from MidwayUSA - they should be good for most anything I'll shoot at too. More work to be done with the 235.

I have some other 375 bullets on hand. I'm not sure if I'll be getting away from the two bullets tested much though, I am especially pleased with the 270 Horn loads.


This rifle was one I did as much of the work myself, at least what I could do without a lathe. I bought a 98 receiver from a Mauser guru. (I've had Mauser 98's all my life, but I am not an expert on Mausers!) It's a BRNO VZ 24 if that means something to one who would know.
I bought a semi-blank stock - mostly inletted but needing a lot of wood removal. I shaped the stock to fit me and put a Pachmayer recoil pad on it. I bought a blank 375 barrel from Shaw. I rented a reamer and cut the chamber by hand, that is without a lathe. The reamer was available right now and the dies were available right now. I had sold my lathe 30 years ago and while I've opened up chambers by hand, I never started from scratch - uff da - it's a lot of work. (I rust blued the barreled action myself also.)
I hired a gunsmith to mount a decent set of sights, which I had. Steel Lyman aperture rear sight and the front sight from Brownells. I found I could shoot it pretty well at 100 yards, but the first time out deer hunting with it I saw deer at 200 to 250 in the trees. Those sights and my eyes were not compatible with that scenario. I had a Leupold base for a 98 lying around and once again had to rely on a smith to install the base. While at it, the safety was converted to a 3-way safety that works with a scope. I put on a M8 4x Leupold scope, which I consider about right for the cartridge. The barrel is threaded for a suppressor and with that on the rifle, the recoil is mild.
As far as why a "375 Whelen AI", I wanted something different. I've owned center fire rifles since the late 50's and had many different common rifles chambered for common cartridges. I put a lot of work into this rife and it wasn't going to be a 30-06 or whatever some dude thinks it should have been. I figured the 375 Whelen Ai was about the most powerful cartridge based on the 06 case (I was likely wrong as the 400 Whelen might well be a more powerful round.) I also picked 375 because I owned a 375 H&H, a 375 H&H AI, and a 375 Win. I had plenty of molds in 375 and had a good selection of 375 bullets on the shelf. Plus, there is a plentiful supply of bullets on the market. I'm considering a 375-444 Ruger #1 since I have a #1 action that I'd like to modify.
I didn't pick a 35 Whelen AI as I had a 35 Whelen and a 35 Brown Whelen. and felt the 35 Whelen AI was more common than the 375 version.

https://i.postimg.cc/GhMWhL6f/375-WAI-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/HVyZ6gY0)

[lotech]

I haven't had a .375 Whelen Improved in years, but I got excellent accuracy with the 270 Hornady SP and IMR-4064. That was more than thirty years ago. If I had the rifle now, I'd also try H4895. I used several cast bullets in it as well but I'd have to dig out old notes to know which ones.

[Larry Gibson]

Very nicely done, excellent write up.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Did Mike, (Missionary 5155) ever get his rifle sorted out?

That was like 10 years ago. Hope it worked right from JES as I think he knew about teh proper way to chamber the barrels for the .375 and .400 Whelan Calibers