Swaging Productivity - How Long Does It Take?

[ricklaut]

One of the things I wondered about before committing to purchasing my dies was how much time it would take to make bullets. Now that I have BT's complete set, I have a preliminary feel for it. I did a time study aimed at measuring how long it would take to make 100 bullets.

Lots of caveats here...
* I'm new at this (...so it follows that I will probably find additional efficiencies)
* I wasn't rushing, but I wasn't slouching either. I was trying to apply the "slow is smooth; smooth is fast" philosophy.
* Others may have different workflows
* I made use of my 'swaging accessories', which I created in order to save myself time.
* Some tasks obviously take longer than what's shown, but I did large batches (i.e. casting & annealing) and then averaged out the time per 100. This also takes into account startup / shutdown time.
* These tasks are spread out over time, it wasn't all done in one session (i.e. casting, derimming & core swaging in August; core seating / point forming over the past two days). In all cases, though, I used the stopwatch and took notes.

So, here's how it shakes out:

Casting Cores: 8.25 min / 100
Derimming: 5 min / 100
Annealing: 4 min / 100
Core Swaging: 9.43 min / 100 (shameless plug... I wasn't picking them up off the floor; they fall into the swaging tray. On average, 6 pieces / 100 miss the tray. This also applies to core seating & point forming).
Core Seating: 8.5 min / 100 (another shameless plug... I was using the core shaker. I timed myself without the core shaker / tray (manually placing cores into jackets from two containers and then going into the press). That took a little over twice as long - ~20 min / 100).
Point Forming: 8.5 min / 100

The above tasks total ~44 min / 100.

Additional tasks, including:
Wet tumbling: I wet tumble 3 times (before derimming, after annealing and after point forming). The time I spent (so, not counting the actual time the tumbler is running) runs about 6 min per batch. Figure 18 minutes to use in my example.
Tool & Die Setup Time: Batch size is important here too... Working in batches makes the most sense, that way you're not constantly changing out dies. 3 min x 4 dies (12 min) plus other assorted tasks that aren't otherwise accounted for (10 min?): 22 min

My total estimated time per 100: 84 minutes. I definitely think I can improve on that, but hopefully this info gives others a baseline to go by.

[runfiverun]

I highly batch process most of my stuff too depending on which swage set I'm using I can knock out a bullet in about 3 minutes or less or, much longer depending on the set.
if you use a set with multiple steps it obviously takes longer, and if you use a single core mold it adds time too.
the cleaning of the cases between steps and annealing are definitely time users.

however, the quality of the results quite often depends on the time spent on the laborious steps.

[Three44s]

I am not a swager yet.

But I batch process most of my handloads ......... if you are bent on making a 100 from start to finnish, you lose too much time changing dies ...........

With batching, I process ahead on the early operations and when I am ready to jump on a particular load, I am ready to get a finnished product in relatively short order with much less changing and adjusting.

I would see the same holding true with swaging ..... and likely more so!

Three 44s

[supe47]

I knocked out 335 REM 54.5 grainers while watching "Thor", 2 1/2 hrs. Cores were already swaged to weight, jackets prepped for core swaging. No rush, just mindless handle pumping. (I did stop once and a while to watch a little action)

[BT Sniper]

Good info! Supe has the right idea when it comes to swaging bullets, put on a good movie while you are doing some of the mindless repetition tasks.

I try to do my bullets in roughly one gallon batches. Derim a gallon worth of jackets, cast and swage a gallon worth of cores, etc. etc. and so on. The more consistent you can keep your bullets from one lot to the next the better chance you have at accuracy. Take good notes too.

BT

[supe47]

Two thumbs up on the notes. I have a file on all the combo's I've tried with measurements from the base of the die to the lock ring and what press. If not exact, it'll get ya right close. It has saved me from who knows how many stuck bullets and cuts down on set up time. Makes results repeatable.

[kweidner]

With my setup, I have two presses dedicated to swaging. One is a old Herters I use only for derimming. The RCBS has BT's auto eject on it. My dies are locked with the exception of my core swage. Batching is key. I average 1000 in 15.5 hours. With bullets averaging 170 plus shipping for 1000 recently these works out pretty good for me. Shameless plug for auto eject. No way this would be possible ejecting with a hammer.

[ricklaut]

It feels like we are all approaching things pretty much the same with large batches. I completely agree with the value of the auto-eject... I've got my dies locked down for repeatable 55 grainers, but took note of Supe's measurement of die position in notes (thanks!).

I also think the prep between tasks is HUGE! I learned a lot from the various threads here about the importance of cleanliness... Before I had any finished bullets, I wondered if I was over doing it / being too picky with clean jackets. No longer. I'm am SO happy with the results... I'm not having problems with jackets sticking during derimming, I'm not seeing folded points and (to me), the final product looks perfect.

In my case, I worked ahead with derimming and making / swaging enough cores so that I was ready to go when the core seat / point forming dies came. Then, it was just a matter of dialing those two in... (which led to a couple of small runs). In doing that, though, I learned a lot about the amount of pressure it takes and what that 'feel' is to get them consistent. Now I'm prepared to run some big batches (after satisfying the need to make some to go shoot!).

I'm not all about speed, but I do want to ensure I have the most efficient process... and the only way to know whether I've got that is to measure (and it satisfies the data geek part of me).

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Great info! Does a member make those fancy catch trays for the Lee Classic cast? Looks like it would save your back from having to pick stuff up off the ground.

[ricklaut]

Great info! Does a member make those fancy catch trays for the Lee Classic cast? Looks like it would save your back from having to pick stuff up off the ground.

I do - it's set up for use with BT's auto-eject. I'll shoot you a PM.

[Lizard333]

I had some free time Sunday and cranked out 600+ projectiles from 22LR cases in about 6 hours. I'm use RCE dies in a walnut hill. I am using wire as cores, and I don't count tumbling the bullets, as I am not activity doing anything.

These puppies are a labor of love.

[kweidner]

I had some free time Sunday and cranked out 600+ projectiles from 22LR cases in about 6 hours. I'm use RCE dies in a walnut hill. I am using wire as cores, and I don't count tumbling the bullets, as I am not activity doing anything.

These puppies are a labor of love.

Interesting 15.5 at 1000 includes prep time for separating and loading media. You are a bit faster with cut cores I am casting. Need to take some notes from you me thinks.

[supe47]

Are we supposed to count all the time sittin' there sorting cases before derimming? If one of us could invent an automatic case headstamp sorter for under $50 we'd be set. Like Lizard said, these puppies are a labor of love. Lots of labor, lots of love.

[ricklaut]

Are we supposed to count all the time sittin' there sorting cases before derimming? If one of us could invent an automatic case headstamp sorter for under $50 we'd be set. Like Lizard said, these puppies are a labor of love. Lots of labor, lots of love.

Oh, I want to erase that part of it from my memory... I didn't count that. It was painful... I went through about 17k of them and - um - I'm scarred. That wasn't part of the 'love'.

[runfiverun]

probably a lot faster and easer to sort into weight groups rather than head stamp.

[supe47]

It's still sorting. I made a 100 hole shakey-shakey tray. Cases in, shake, cover, flip and sort with tweezers from HF. Actually goes fairly quick. (but boring)

[Lizard333]

probably a lot faster and easer to sort into weight groups rather than head stamp.

You will find, that with the exception of Federal cases, the other brands are pretty consistent in weight. I have a whole pile of federal cases, that I'm dreading to sort because for some god for saken reason, they have two distinct weights. Two of my favorite brands right now Agila and Eley brass. They within a tenth grain of weight.

And no, the five hours I spent two weeks ago sorting the dead stamps was NOT in my calculations. I got snowed in and had to phone into my meeting at work, so I sorted 22's during the entire meeting. Best meeting in a LONG time.

[Cane_man]

it takes what it takes! not trying to be a smart *** but this is a relaxing hobby and i enjoy the time swaging

[Dave18]

84 minutes that's flying, I figure 2hrs a hundred, if you are trying to compete with sierra hang it up, like someone else said, its a labor of love, I have learned over the yrs, like running cores in bucket fulls, rimfire jackets derimmed by the bucket, ect, then when it all comes together, actual time on the press is not that much, get on the press, then you climb in your bubble, put on your mp3 player and get lost in the rock and roll;) and next thing ya know its 3am and you still have to go to work at 6am[smilie=b:

isn't that whats swagin is all about, LOL

[ricklaut]

Yep - I love all of the aspects of reloading. When I started casting, that was a nice pinnacle; swaging takes that to a whole new level.

I spent the day alternately taking care of my wife who is sick, and while she was sleeping, swaging some out... it's pretty cool at the end of the day to see those 500 new little brass beauties just waiting to be loaded up :).

[supe47]

Dave18- What do you listen to? David Bowie.....Under pressure? ( been waiting a long time to use that)

[Dave18]

naw, just a mix of stuff from the 60s on to today, that I have stuffed in a mp3 file,and don't have to put up with a DJ and news jock interrupting the music , bowie is in there somewhere, :-P
as to being underpressure,
nope when the music starts, and Im in front of the press, time fades away, many enjoyable things of the past come back to mind, its when the music stops and I have to come back to now, is when the underpressure (or is it over pressure) applies;)

[supe47]

My truck came with Sirius radio. Part of the enjoyment of a range run is the trip through the boonies listening to the 50's, 60's and 70'. 'Bout a 40 min. drive. The last 5 mins. are the most important, it'll be the song running around my head for the whole shooting session. I don't need wind, I can blame "the wrong song" on a bad day with the targets.

[sargenv]

For me.. the two things I swage, 22 into 224 and 9 into 40's..

All swage operations for 22 to 22 lr = 7.5 hrs per 1000
Swage operations for 9 -> 40 S&W bullets.. 3.5 hrs per 1000..

For the 9 -> 40 it's cast cores, seat cores on a Dillon 650 (where I make up a lot of time over the 22 -> 224 process), lube and swage, then tumble after swage to de-lube them.. usually corn cob with a little Isopropyl Alcohol...

For me the 22-> 224 is cast cores, anneal brass, de-rim, size brass, seat cores, core swage, point form, size.. and the same de-lube process above. Somewhere in there I sort by weight to + or - .2 gr.. 50.0 -> 50.5 -> 51.0 and so on..

[ricklaut]

For me.. the two things I swage, 22 into 224 and 9 into 40's..

All swage operations for 22 to 22 lr = 7.5 hrs per 1000
Swage operations for 9 -> 40 S&W bullets.. 3.5 hrs per 1000..

For the 9 -> 40 it's cast cores, seat cores on a Dillon 650 (where I make up a lot of time over the 22 -> 224 process), lube and swage, then tumble after swage to de-lube them.. usually corn cob with a little Isopropyl Alcohol...

For me the 22-> 224 is cast cores, anneal brass, de-rim, size brass, seat cores, core swage, point form, size.. and the same de-lube process above. Somewhere in there I sort by weight to + or - .2 gr.. 50.0 -> 50.5 -> 51.0 and so on..

Wow... that's movin'!

[fredj338]

I figure I an right around 8hr for 1000 from scratch. I batch process everything & do them in 250-300 at a session to reduce fatigue. It's not time value for me, I could just buy 1K 55grFMJ, be cheaper, but I like making & shooting my own & having the ability & equip is priceless in a changing world.

[BT Sniper]

spent a little time and derimed a few jackets yesterday

3.5lbs of jackets! With a little air pressure hooked up to the press I was able to knock these out in under two hours.

That is over 2400 jackets.

Doing the math that is about 1200 jackets per hour or one every 3 seconds!


http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/006_zps1e684296.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/BTSniper/media/006_zps1e684296.jpg.html)

[Prospector Howard]

I finally ran across some Federal brass that are lighter than the normal 10.5 gr ones. They came out of the 375 value pack, and are about the same weight as the Rem and Win cases at about 9.5 gr. They actually looked different out of the box, (not shiny with a weird dull color). All the other Federals that I had been shooting like the original 550 packs, Champion, and Lightning, looked the same (nice shiny cases) and weighed 10.5 gr. + or - a tenth. I guess I'll be segregating those suckers. If you like to use Fed cases, watch out for the ones out of the 375 packs, they are definintely different.
You will find, that with the exception of Federal cases, the other brands are pretty consistent in weight. I have a whole pile of federal cases, that I'm dreading to sort because for some god for saken reason, they have two distinct weights. Two of my favorite brands right now Agila and Eley brass. They within a tenth grain of weight.

And no, the five hours I spent two weeks ago sorting the dead stamps was NOT in my calculations. I got snowed in and had to phone into my meeting at work, so I sorted 22's during the entire meeting. Best meeting in a LONG time.

[BT Sniper]

Yep I saw the light ones too. They are thinner in the base.

BT