new reloader with a question or 2

[edadmartin]

Hello guys, hope this is in the correct area. Ive been doiing due diligence on reloading for 3 months, so I hope this isnt to stupid of a question.Im reloading 45 acp. on my lee 4 stage turret with factory crimp die Using accr# 2 with lazer cast 200gr swc..452. All bullets have been sized and all case length has been done to .897. so My question is, after loading up a few I noticed a small shaving of the bullet. how do I correct this? also I've noticed a slight dip in the casing diameter in the middle. At the mouth after crimping it measures .471--in the center it measures .469 and at the primer end rim it measure .472. The bullet drops into my 1911 barrel no problem and my evolution size guage it drops in all the way except for the last 1/16" near the rim. How do I correct these problems? which die needs adjusting? what should I look at next thanks

[OuchHot!]

Slightly more flair at the mouth may help with the shaving. I have shot quite a few (!) .45acp with the slight swelling at the boolit with no problems. The critical thing is that you verified the round drops in and is flush with the end of the barrel/chamber hood. In the old days, there were no carbide dies and we had to lube our cases but the dies fit the case/chamber profile better. Nowadays the carbide die sort of over sizes part of the system in the process of getting tight bullet fit. Did that make any sense? Short form is I am not sure that you have a problem other than the shaving.

[462]

Howdy.

1. The lead being shaved is because the case mouth hasn't been expanded enough to accept the boolit.
2. I suspect the boolit being smaller in the center may be due to the use of the handgun carbide factory crimp die. If you pull a boolit, you will see that it has been swaged down a substantial bit. Measuring with a micrometer (not a caliper) will show you exactly how much. Shooting those boolits will, almost assuredly, cause leading.
3. Keep in mind, reloading dies are manufactured with jacketed bullets in mind. Those of us who cast our own boolits, or buy them from mass casters, have to work around this fact.
4. I suggest that you purchase a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, 3rd edition and read through it a few times. There are three other volumes, but the 3rd seems to have the larger following.

[OuchHot!]

462 said it better than me....agree in spades

[seaboltm]

I agree with 462. You have no real problems. a bit more bell on the case. Critical points of reloading after the case is sized: make sure the primer is fully seated, make sure the powder charge is correct, bullet should be seated so OAL is in the ball park of correct, the loaded product should chamber with ease. If you have those 4 things down, relax and shoot.

You are measuring your loads way more than I do. Also, I almost never trim straight walled cases. They really don't stretch that much.

[dbosman]

Shaving of a lead bullet usually means the case mouth hasn't been expanded enough. The case is literally shaving lead as you seat the bullet. Belling or flaring the case mouth a bit more should clean that up. A Lyman M die is made to expand the case mouth and the top sixteenth or so, a bit more which makes seating lead boolits or bullets easier.

I think every reloader makes some waspy looking loads early on.
One possibility is over sizing your brass which gets opened to about normal when you expand the neck. That will lead to a shorter life for the brass. Try backing out your sizing die. You may need to polish it out a bit. Waste a few cases practicing. Make up dummy rounds is not a waste of resources.

[Bad Water Bill]

Pay attention to almost all of the above advice.

Now remember you are NOT wasting that brass because that is the price of learning.

Pay it and keep being careful. It is a great hobby.

[edadmartin]

Thanks guys Im thinking on the M die, and the lyman manual is on order already. I did some case bell testing this AM just to see how much more bell each quarter turn gave me, I think Im good now.
One question I didn't ask, was why 2 different sizes of lead swc. I have .451 and .452. Im starting with using only .452.
Bad water bill , glad to hear about you getting the CCW laws changed. Here in Colorado we recalled 2 morons and another just quit. Doesn't it really show how very important voting is ??
462 you mentioned that the dip in my casing could be from the factory crimp die.Did you mean that Im over crimping or that its just what happens using that die??
Ill post what I find in a day or 2 thanks for the help. off to make dummy rounds.

[beezapilot]

Dillon and Brownells (probably Mid-South as well) both offer a block that is cut with a chamber reamer, it is a wonderful tool to check to insure that sem-auto rounds will chamber. I catch about one bad round per 200, I'd rather catch it watching Netflix in the shop than have a malfunction at the range....

[Firebricker]

Your different size boolits is for fitting a particular barrel better. The standard size jacketed bullet for .45 acp is .451 with lead it is common practice to size your boolits .001 over sized. To custom tailor your boolits for a particular gun you would slug the barrel to find you exact diameter and size .001 over. For most .45 acp your just fine starting out with .452 as long as your loaded rounds chamber with no issue. That should help you a little but I did not explain that nearly as well as other members will but hope it helps. FB

[trixter]

Hello guys, hope this is in the correct area. Ive been doiing due diligence on reloading for 3 months, so I hope this isnt to stupid of a question.Im reloading 45 acp. on my lee 4 stage turret with factory crimp die Using accr# 2 with lazer cast 200gr swc..452. All bullets have been sized and all case length has been done to .897. so My question is, after loading up a few I noticed a small shaving of the bullet. how do I correct this? also I've noticed a slight dip in the casing diameter in the middle. At the mouth after crimping it measures .471--in the center it measures .469 and at the primer end rim it measure .472. The bullet drops into my 1911 barrel no problem and my evolution size guage it drops in all the way except for the last 1/16" near the rim. How do I correct these problems? which die needs adjusting? what should I look at next thanks

Shaving lead: re-adjust your 'Powder' die very carefully until you can see a definite flare in the mouth.

If your reloads will drop into the actual barrel of your gun to the proper depth, then when you turn it upside down, it falls out again by itself it is probably OK. Re adjust your crimping die until this happens all of the time. I would not be too concerned with 'measurements' unless you are reloading for several different guns. I have the Lyman case gauge and they fall into it perfectly and fall out with out any help. They measure .468 with my caliper ( I thought this was too small, but they work perfectly). Hope this helps.

[Rich/WIS]

Your Lee dies should have an expander die, you just need to adjust it. You mentioned your cases are all same length, if you trimmed them did you chamfer the mouths, trimming can leave a wire edge on the cartridge mouth.

[edadmartin]

yes, the lee length trimmer has a chamfer built in and Im very anal about looking at each casing.
I pulled the barrels out of my springfield 1911 and my glock and the rounds do drop in and out no problem, they only hang up in my hornaday guage, right at the rim about 1/16" from seating fully.Since this is related Ill ask isnt an M die only for rifle casings? and when would I want to use a lee .001 undersized sizing/deprime die,I have the stock one as well as a undersized one????

[462]

Lyman M-dies are available for both handgun and rifle cartridges. They come in two body lengths -- M1 for handgun and the shorter rifle cartridges, and M2 for the longer rifle cartridges. The advantage that M-die have over Lee's mouth flaring die (it does not expand the neck) is that the length of the neck is sized to some dimension smaller that the boolit's diameter, which assures uniform neck tension and eliminates the possibility of a too small neck swaging a boolit. Additionally, the M-die forms a "step" in the case mouth that is slightly larger than boolit diameter, which allows the boolit to sit in the case with proper alignment, squarely and securely. A flaring die opens the case mouth but the boolit will not be properly aligned to the case, and can enter it as some odd angle other than parallel. A boolit that sits in a case that has been expanded with an M-die will not move about, while one sitting in a flared mouth will wobble about.

For my cast boolits, the expander plugs are generally too small so I've had custom plugs made. Forum member Buckshot makes them to your specifications, his price is more than fair, and the dimensions are spot on. I prefer the first dimension to be .001" to .002" smaller than the boolit diameter and as long as the boolit length that is inside the case -- handgun -- or the length of the neck -- rifle. The second dimension -- or step -- I prefer to be .001" larger that boolit base diameter.

After re-reading your opening post, I may have jumped the gun (no pun intended) on the cause of the case's smaller section. A picture would be a great help.

[gray wolf]

The case will measure larger around the area that contains the bullet, the inside diameter of the case is smaller than the bullet diameter. Bullet goes in and swells the case slightly. Not a problem unless you seat a bullet crooked and make an ugly bulge on one side. Still if it chambers it will shoot, up to the loader if he wants to pull the bullet and start over.
Case diameter down near the case head is thicker and will show a slight difference in diameter, it's normal,
dose it chamber ? I think it will. As for trimming 45 ACP brass ? I understand as a new re-loader that you want things to be as perfect as possible and your commended for that. But trust me it's a waste of time, 45 ACP brass will get shorter and not longer. after a few firings most will be a little different but none will be longer. It's the way it is in the 45 ACP world, don't sweat it. As long as you get a usable taper crimp your good to go.
Always check your dummy rounds for function in the Mag. SWC will not be a problem, RN bullets you can most time set the OAL so they clear the front of the mag. and that will be fine, DO they chamber ? and do they function ? And always be sure you can cycle a round a few times without getting bullet set back ( bullet gets driven deeper into the case = set back )
It has been said to set the OAL for a SWC so the bullet chambers with the back of the case even or .002 below the back top of the barrel, the barrel hood. Then do the plunk test, drop a bullet in (plunk ) invert the barrel and the bullet falls out under it's own weight (plunk) To do this for a SWC, seat a bullet (dummy round) long and try it in your barrel, but first remove some of the case flare, go easy into the crimp die, if you don't the case will hang up in the chamber.
The case will not seat even with the barrel hood cause the bullet is seated out to far, that's good it's what we want at this point. Now keep seating the bullet in a little at a time until the back of the case is even with the barrel hood.
That is your OAL for that bullet. The cartridge is now head spacing off the exposed lead at the front of the bullet.
It is just contacting the the rifling lead. This is a very respected way to set OAL for a SWC bullet. It will also ensure the case sits in the same place in the chamber and your primer strikes will be the same. 45 ACP in a perfect world head spaces on the case rim. Unless everything is perfect and it's most times not. it's the extractor holding the case in position. the case can drive forward within the wiggle room of the extractor and will ultimately stop it's forward movement when the case hits the end of the chamber. drop an empty case into the chamber of your pistol and see how far it enters the chamber. You will find that a mixed bag of brass will show many different visuals of how they relate to the barrel hood.
Confused yet ? don't be. As for the Lee FCD for the 45 ACP ? mine looks as good as it did the day I got it, why ? cause it's never been in the press, I don't and wont use it. It's fine for jacketed ammo but will most time reduce the size of your bullets unless they are very hard. Confirm the size of some of your bullets with a good Mic. caliper if that is all you have,
Are they .452 ? now make up a dummy round, seat the bullet and crimp it, pull the bullet and measure it, is it still .452.
If it is not you will probly lead the barrel. Millions of 45 ACP have been loaded for 45 1911 and 1911-A1 pistols without the Lee FCD. Your questions as a new reloader are all great questions, I wish more new people would express the same desire to be accurate and want to now why things happen and how to correct what needs to be corrected.

Sam

[edadmartin]

whoa ! . Gray wolf, thanks for taking the time to explain. You answered all the questions I wondered about plus a couple I hadn't even contemplated. Im pasting this info into my note book.
Im shooting the 20 rounds Ive loaded tomorrow, seems like everyone that responded was on the same page with the answers so I feel I can shoot the rounds Ive loaded. Wouldn't it be cool if all my first run rounds fired without any malfunction? Ill will be back with more questions I'm sure. I'm going to do those dummy load tests tomorrow too . I really wondered how to get the correct length for any particular hand gun shooting swc , thats awesome. Thanks to everyone, seems like a great community here.

[gray wolf]

Safety glasses--------Don't leave home without them.

[edadmartin]

ok I'm red faced. I bought a rcbs collet puller with the .451 collet so I could do some testing and it doesnt pull cast swc bullets, just slips off. ok ok laugh get it all out. LOL So is there no way except to use the hammer type puller?

[Firebricker]

Get a inertia hammer type puller it will be a lot more versatile. FB
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/215517/frankford-arsenal-impact-bullet-puller

[JSAND]

Yep, hard to beat the inertia type puller for cast removal. Keep a watchful eye on your barrell when shooting those as many stated they have been surely sized down, leading may follow. Good Luck, Happy shooting and re-loading.

[David2011]

Edadmartin,

Welcome to Castboolits! What Gray Wolf said- especially the part about trimming .45 ACP. I have never found the need; loaded tens of thousands, all with cast boolits.

David

[edadmartin]

Im happy to report my revised 1st loads shot great ,no kaboom and no malfunctions at all thru my nice Springfield loaded. I set aside the first batch because of the shaving I mentioned. I loaded up 30 after adjusting the sizing die, seating die and backing out the factory crimp die. This time using 4.2 grains of AA 2 with the lazer cast 200gr swc my mouth size was .471 and at the rim it was .470. My col was 1.264,which was modeled after the Winchester factory bullets I have been shooting. . I also got way less sway at the mid point of the casing, not sure why but the bullet looked pretty good compared to the first batch And After doing the tests and suggestions from gray wolf I feel more knowledgeable than this time last week. Im a happy camper.
Next question---How do you clean up safely the loose powder grains from the lee pro powder measure that seep out on the press and bench. ? do you just sweep and toss, or vacuum or what? Is there a mod to do that will minimize the seeping from the powder measure? If I changed to lees charge bar would I get less seepage ?

[Wayne Smith]

I can't answer about the Lee measure cause I don't have one. I sweep up the powder - and old shaving brush works great - and toss on the lawn. It's nitrogen, after all.

[OuchHot!]

I use lee pro disc and earlier disc measures on several presses and don't really see that much loose powder. Is the reservoir not quite seated? At any rate, I find a can of air useful as well as a small brush. Someday my carpet is likely to toast me.

[K-Rod]

I didnt read all of the post so it may have been covered already but, if these are for a Auto pistol & NOT a revolver, I'd check to make sure your slide is going into full battery before loading too many more with bullets sized to .452. I loaded some commercial cast bullets I had that were sized to .452 for a buddies 45acp XD & they wouldn't let the slide go into full battery until I re-sized them to .451.

As for the lead shavings, the guys are right, need more bell. Good luck

[edadmartin]

Love the comment-- toss in in the yard its nitrogen--- hey a greener yard is a better yard i say On the subject of the .452 size I did shoot 30 yesterday thru my springfield 1911 and they fed like butter.no FTF or other malfunctions I ran 20 Winchester 230 fmj thru after, maybe to clear the lead ,I dont know That may be an old wives tale but I was having fun.
I noticed a big difference in the recoil too the 200 gr lswc had less and my follow up shots were better than with the 230 gr ammo.
I figured the Lee pro measure may not be seating so I cleaned it out and with a flat board and 180 grit paper I flat sanded the disc and aluminun side rails together until there were no shiny spots. I know its flat now. so next time around there should be less of a mess on the bench.

[SSGOldfart]

Well said gray wolf:D

[edadmartin]

Going back to cover something I'm not understanding from previous posts. my bullet drops in and out of both my 1911 barrel and my glock barrel, but the rim of the bullet, the last 1/16" on many bullets tested in my 45 acp guage hangs up slightly ??? I can very easily seat it by hand and a shake or 2 will make it fall out, so do I need to get a gauge that is closer in size to the barrels I shoot? I think mine was a hornaday,I don't remember . Which guage is known to be slightly looser?
Or--- do I still have die adjustment to make? whats next.
Like I said I had only 4 ftf out of my first 100 +- reloads.

[David2011]

Your 45 acp gauge is probably sized for jacketed bullets. See if a bare jacketed bullet with a .451" diameter will go through the gage. Chances are it will but a .452 boolit will hang on the sharp edge of the gage. The gages are typically sized to minimum SAAMI specs. Make sure your gage and barrel chamber are spotlessly clean. Bits of lube and shaved lead in either can cause lots of aggravation.

Your seating depth could be an issue as well. Too much shoulder sticking out of the brass can cause the problem you describe. The shoulder will engage the rifling if it's too long. I like to have just 1/32-1/16" of the straight sides of the boolit exposed when loading a SWC or truncated cone. The 1.275" max OAL for a .45ACP is based on the John Browning designed bullet profile which very closely follows the inside shape of the magazine. Other profiles have to be loaded shorter to allow for straight bullet sides, contact points, etc. in order to function in the magazine and to chamber correctly and easily. You may have all of this covered but it's the things I learned when I started shooting a 1911 so though I would mention it. Much of this applies to both the .45 ACP and .40 S&W as the SWC and Truncate Cone act similarly in both calibers, particularly in 1911 pattern guns. I ran into many of the same issues loading for my STI 2011 in .40 as I did the 1911 including the gage issues. Cartridges that would fail the gages inevitably loaded and shot perfectly so I had to learn the lessons detailed above.

Good luck!
David

[edadmartin]

Ok I tested a jacketed blazer and it is as you say and it does not hang. My lswc are .452 and bullet seating depth is 1.262-1.264. Ill try a few at 1.260 and 1.255 to se if they hang in the guage or not. also see if they eject from the magazine too. Is there a guage on the market which might be a tad looser?

[edadmartin]

slight annoyance,is it just me ? . I have the lee riser on my pro auto disc and there is only 1 position this riser will work with out bumping the priming tool, but the riser threads cannot be tightened and be in this 1 position, o rings just dont keep it static and powder grains still seep out slightly .
Why didnt lee make that riser 1" higher and it would have solved the problem completely I dont get it really,very poor design.
Can you double stack 2 risers or would that cause other problems, just frustrated.

[trixter]

slight annoyance,is it just me ? . I have the lee riser on my pro auto disc and there is only 1 position this riser will work with out bumping the priming tool, but the riser threads cannot be tightened and be in this 1 position, o rings just dont keep it static and powder grains still seep out slightly .
Why didnt lee make that riser 1" higher and it would have solved the problem completely I dont get it really,very poor design.
Can you double stack 2 risers or would that cause other problems, just frustrated.

Please look carefully at the whole project. Lock the riser in place and when you put the powder dispenser on it will swivel to any place you want then lock it down. Some tomes finger tight doesn't seem tight enough, but work with it; it will tighten into place right where you want it.

[edadmartin]

thanks, I have it now, but what a pain. lee should have made it just a little taller. thanks

[Bad Water Bill]

lee should have made it just a little taller. thanks

That is part of what we all say.

SHOULDA,COULDA WOODA.

If we wooda bought that stuff when we coulda we shoulda had a lot more.

[gunoil]

seat in one station crimp in one station. Buy a dillon seat die, read the direction and look inside. Dillon seats only, dillon seat die is wide at top and does not touch brass up near projectile & it does not pre crimp before your crimp die in your last station. It just seats bullet. Dillon dies are good.

If ya cant do that, raise you lee seat die way up and screw your bullet plunger all the way down. I size @ 451. You might like staining your cast boolits with hi-tek-supercoat /bayoubullets.net

I put my lee expander dies on laithe and turn out bell and put step in like the die below that goes on my dillon S1050. The step expansion is better than bell expansion IMO.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/5E7CD15C-EAC9-4756-AD29-CC5B0A915D0B-4490-0000037DEAE696DB.jpg

Heres a RCBS step expander die l run in station 2 on lee loadmaster. My station 3 drops powder only, expander nipple machined off sta.3.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/1075CF20-7957-4444-9D95-88686390C651-2149-00000314C3AB3AD7.jpg

[edadmartin]

great info it helps.

[edadmartin]

more than one way to skin a cat. I just use 2 risers, and get it way out of the way. Its now tight wont wiggle, charges are consistent with the charge bar. All is well.