Got a 92 Win, and Google lead me to Castboolits

[Clark]

90214

I bought a Winchester 92 last night.
The pawn shop thought it might be a 38 special.
I got it home, and 38 special did not fit.
I Googled "38 W.C.F." and it got me to Castboolits.
I found out what it was and how cases are formed.

It is a 38-40.
I could make the brass with 45 Colt or better, 303 Brit.
But Midway has 38-40 brass for 26 cents.
I can't build tooling and run the lathe for that kind of money.

The rifle is in very good shape internally for a 1904 lever action.
The outside is covered with black scum, and someone sanded over the screws.
But only the loading gate screw has witness marks. Bubba has not disassembled this rifle.
The bore is in great shape. Probably because no one could find ammo.

Is the black scum natural patina? Or did someone varnish the gun, metal and all?

[seaboltm]

Hard to tell on the finish of the metal. I would wipe it down and leave it alone. 38 WCF was hard to find at one time, but with cowboy action shooters, it should be very easy to acquire some ammunition. Bore does look good. Then again if someone did sand it an removed all the original finish, there is very little reason not to re-blue the gun. Zero original finish and a re-blue probably have about the same value as both would be rated at zero original finish remaining, but I am no old Winchester expert. Rust bluing would look great on this old rifle.

[fouronesix]

Get about 200 cases from Midway. Get some soft alloy. Get a mold that drops a 180 gr traditional RNFP bullet at about .401 diameter and appropriate dies like the RCBS 38-40 Cowboy set. Get a Lee push through 401 sizer. Get a shallow pan lube set up for soft lube. There's quite a bit of both blackpowder and smokeless load data out there for the 38-40.

I don't know if I would re-blue the thing or not but the bore looks perfectly shootable. Clean the bore REALLY well. You could disassemble the rifle. Use 0000 steel wool and bristle brush along with acetone or carburetor cleaner for the metal. Use the steel wool dipped in denatured alcohol to clean the wood. Use paper towels to clean off residues of the cleaning. Re-oil all the metal and maybe add a light coat of BLO to the wood. Re-assemble and go shoot.

[BCRider]

The really old oil based varnishes did become dark and opaque with time. Or if it's an oil finish then perhaps it's simply become grungy from being handled with dirty hands for a long time. The consistency of the colouring will suggest which is the issue in this case. An even look suggests that it's an old varnish issue. If it's darker in some areas than others then it's more likely due to handling and rubbing in the old dirt.

The folks that collect this stuff would be in a better position to say if the finish makes the gun more valuable than a re-finish. Me? If I can't see the wood grain then I feel that the finish is damaged. And even with an old gun I feel that actual damage is worth fixing.

[Marvin S]

My 92 in 38wcf is my most accurate short range lever gun. It will shoot one ragged hole groups at 35 yards and is no slouch at 100. Old worn ugly rifles that shoot tight groups are beautiful. Dont worry about the finish just clean it up gently.

[fouronesix]

Clark,

I wouldn't worry too much about the finish. Just clean it and go.

The stock finish Winchester used about that time was a simple shellac. Remnants of it may or may not still be present. Given the basic condition of the rifle, it won't hurt the value using the 0000 steel wool and alcohol to clean the wood. Just dip the wool in the alcohol and rub lightly on a small patch of wood and quickly clean off residue with paper towel. Keep doing that until the stocks are cleaned. Then for a bit of protection of the wood, apply a little BLO and rub it in by hand.

[iron mule]

hello and welcome
now to the rifle that is a fine example of one of the first/original 38 spl //well second the 3 was the first caliber/// and before any one jumps i know it is a 38-40 but to me they are special /// i have been shooting them for years it has become my main rifle for hunting and just shooting//// most are great shooters if the barrel has been taken care of

if you do get cases and reload do not load as a pistol case these are bottle necked and need to be lubed before sizing no carbide dies
also don't hurry i have ruined a few cases by not having them lined up with the die and raising the ram and having the case hit the die off center causing a case mouth to be damaged beyond repair

last bit of advice check your head space if a little loose use remington brass if you can find it the rim is thicker on them than other brands
mule

[iron mule]

duplicate

[iron mule]

duplicate

[iron mule]

duplicate

[bob208]

leave the finish alone just wipe it with light oil. don't go scraping and sanding. a old Winchester with no finish is worth way more then a reblue.
get the brass it is far easier then trying to make it. you can use a 180 gr. bullet for the .40 s&w pistol. look at lee molds. get a flat nose bullet. 50-50 wheel weights and soft lead make a good hunting load. lite loads of unique works good. also black powder.

[Iowa Fox]

Thats a nice looking 92 you found. I would like to find one just like it for myself. Good advise from bob208, I would just wipe it down with some breakfree and take good care of the old girl. Finish in the pics looks typical of a used Winchester from that time. Cast bullets with Unique are your best bet, enjoy that nice find.

[PS Paul]

Nice old rifle in a great caliber. Sounds like you might be stuck on Mercer Island?

[jlchucker]

What everyone else says. Those used to be pretty common back in the 1950's when I was a kid. Some kids that I knew carried 38-40's deer hunting, as family hand-me-downs, and nobody felt under-gunned during the white-tail season. There's an earlier post on this website where a guy posted a picture of his elk kill this year. Him and his big, dead elk--shot with his trusty 38-40! The boolit obviously didn't bounce off. You have a good one!

[schutzen]

In my area a lot of old guns were lubed with kerosene for storage. Over time dust and dirt get into it and it dries forming a dark crud on the metal. Wet it down good with Kroil, let it set overnight, and scrub it off with a good rough rag. If that gets you to a nice brown patina, let it be. If it is still a rough finish, it is your call. The .38-40 is a nice caliber and as far as I am concerned, the '92 is the best of the Winchesters. You've got a sweet gun.

[MtGun44]

Not sure if you know that the ".38" has NOTHING to do with the dimensions of
the cartridge. This is a .40 caliber cartridge.

The harshest cleaning that gun should see is Hoppe's #9 and 0000 steel wool. This will remove
gunk, dirt and fine rust but preserve the finish. Overcleaning a gun like this can dramatically
drop the market value.

You will need to buy some cast .40 cal boolits and the dies and such to load for .38 Winchester
Center Fire. Good luck, treat the old girl well, she has come down thru time a long way to get
here in one piece, remember for these old pieces we are just their current caretakers, if we do
our part, she will have many more caretakers before the rust ultimately wins.

Bill

[TXGunNut]

Looks like a shooter but I'd still give it a gentle scrubbing and a bit of BLO on the wood to help it make it thru it's next century.

[mikeym1a]

Get about 200 cases from Midway. Get some soft alloy. Get a mold that drops a 180 gr traditional RNFP bullet at about .401 diameter and appropriate dies like the RCBS 38-40 Cowboy set. Get a Lee push through 401 sizer. Get a shallow pan lube set up for soft lube. There's quite a bit of both blackpowder and smokeless load data out there for the 38-40.



I don't know if I would re-blue the thing or not but the bore looks perfectly shootable. Clean the bore REALLY well. You could disassemble the rifle. Use 0000 steel wool and bristle brush along with acetone or carburetor cleaner for the metal. Use the steel wool dipped in denatured alcohol to clean the wood. Use paper towels to clean off residues of the cleaning. Re-oil all the metal and maybe add a light coat of BLO to the wood. Re-assemble and go shoot.

Back when I was an upholsterer, for finishes like that where the original finish was to be retained, it was standard practice to use very fine steel wool and turpentine, and rub very gently. The turpentine softened the scum and the steel wool removed it. Done properly, the original finish was left intact. Of course, I was working on varnish finishes on furniture. Not sure what that would do to an oil stain. We never did any of the oil finishes.

[mrcvs]

I wouldn't reblue. To me, an original gun with honest wear is far more appealing than a reblued firearm...any day of the week.

[missionary5155]

Good morning and welcome to the lead boolit capital.
I have two 38-40's. First you need to discover how fat the throat is. That portion gust in front of the chamber neck. If you can fill that with a boolit (bullet) you will be on your way to accuracy.
Example.. my 1892 has a .403 bore. But the throat is .407. A .403 is too loose to seal gases behind the bullet base plus right at the start of the journey down the barrel the boolit nose is allowed to tilt one way or the other. Not the best for accuracy. .406 is the absolute fattest boolit I can load with real 38-40 (38WCF) brass. But the accuracy improvement was half the group size of the .403 groove diameter boolits. So if using smokeless do thre research first.
With 3F Blackpowder and 40-1 boolit mix .405 is as accurate as .406 boolits. 3F will bump up the boolit diameter and fill the gap and still chamber easily with 10 rounds fired with 3F. 2F is dirtier and I do not use it ever in a lever gun even in my 50-95.
If you size down caliber 45 Colt brass you will have thicker neck walls which will reduce the fattest possible boolit you can chamber. But first check the throat as "maybe" your barrel has a tighter throat than what I have seen. Throat diameter is always first when shooting lead items.
It would be better to get real 38WCF brass or you may have to neck turn thick neck walls to seat fat boolits.
Also be sure to get all the copper residue out of the barrel before shooting lead. Those copper particles will rasp your lead boolits to pieces making you think you have lead problems when in fact you have copper problems.
Those are my Winchester experiences.. 38 WCF and 44 WCF in the model 1892.. all the same just different hole sizes.
Mike in Peru

[fouronesix]

Way oversized cast bullets for these may OK if the loaded round can be chambered. The rifles/carbines I have including a SAA Colt won't chamber much larger than a .401 and that's with thin wall WW and Starline brass.

Before ordering oversized molds or specific sizers or grossly over-sized bullets, to avoid a bunch of hassle, slug the bore so you know what you are dealing with. Then get ahold of a couple of 40 cal lead pistol bullets (.400-.401), load them and shoot them. Measure the neck diameters of the fired cases and subtract 2X the neck wall thickness. That number will be about your absolute maximum for bullet diameter.

[Clark]

91359
I got some brass and dies.
I fired one shot:
25 gr H110
Win large pistol or magnum primer
180 gr plated 0.58" long
seated 1.590"
QL 25,656 psi 2012 fps 24" barrel
Kicks like a 30-30
Does not feed well, but extracts and ejects well.
I must pump the lever twice to get it to feed.
Maybe it does not like only one round in the tube.

I rubbed some dirt off the Win 92 38-40.
I have still not taken it apart.


I also went back to the gun store and paid for a Colt New Service 38-40 revolver.
I can pick it up December 27.

[fouronesix]

Thank goodness for the genius of Browning and the strength of the 86/92 design.
And, thank goodness that wasn't fired in the revolver.

The 38-40 does much better at around 12-1400 fps, with pressures less than 12000 psi in the 92. In other words, at equivalent BP ballistics.

If you want the performance of a 30-30, use a 30-30.

[Clark]

I bought another New Service revolver a month ago in 455 Eley.
I fired one round.
Colt New Service 1916

45 Colt case trimmed from 1.275" to 0.885".
Rim trimmed from .055-.057 down to .045-.046"
6 gr Power Pistol Win OAL 1.21" OAL, 250 gr XTP .667" bullet, crimp with .473" carbide for grip, .455 seater for roll into cannelure. Large Win pistol primer
QL 18.8 kpsi, 867 fps with 7" barrel effective length with cylinder
Kicks like factory 45acp burns clean

Some pieces fell out of the grip.
I always thought grips got damaged from being used as a hammer.
Maybe a shock wave from recoil can break them.

I ordered a replacement.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=383333751