Lead hollowpoints - expansion

[CTI1USNRET]

Will lead HP bullets (.357 cal, .429 cal, or .452 cal) at handgun velocities (900-1400 fps) expand in whitetail-size game? If so, what allow mix?

LIVE FREE OR DIE
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[Djones]

I like 95/3/2 PbSbSn for cast hollow points out of my 44. Make sure to keep some Tin in the mix to maintain toughness.

Check out this sticky:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?110213-From-Ingot-to-Target-A-Cast-Bullet-Guide-for-Handgunners

Tons and tons of great reading on cast hollow points.

[357maximum]

Cast hollowpoints in the calibers listed are needed for whitetail deer hunting about as bad as we need more politicians.

A good flatpoint made out of mallable alloy is all that is needed.

HP's ???? expand they will, the trick it to limit their expansion in a medium that requires very limited if any expansion.

Cast HP's are a waste of time and energy on your part unless you are shooting fish in shallow water or two legged critters IMHO.

[CTI1USNRET]

357maximum
You didn't answer my question. Will they expand? What alloy mix?
CTI1USNRET

LIVE FREE OR DIE
http://americanslivingfree.com/

[45 2.1]

Your asking a loaded question...... It depends on where you want to shoot the white tail size game (not necessarily a deer from your description) and how tough that game is. It depends also on what size/shape/depth the hollow point is in relation to the nose besides the proper alloy for it. To make a minimal caliber more effective on small big game a HP can be very effective (depending on what you want done and yes, they do expand when designed and alloyed properly) to keep trailing to a minimum and to keep your animal from crossing a fence line onto someone else's ground where they claim it. These things do not apply when you shoot hand cannons..........to a degree.

[Larry Gibson]

As you've noticed the subject of HPs is a "touchy" one.......

Yes they will expand. I've been using HP'd cast bullets in the mentioned handgun calibers + .32, 9mm and .41 along with many different rifle cartridges for 40+ years. I've killed a pile of black tail and mule deer with them.

As to handgun cartridges with PB's the alloy Djones mentions above is a good one which allows magnum level velocities (1200 - 1400 fps). For those cartridges of lessor velocity 950 - 1100 fps I prefer 40-1 or 30-1 lead-tin alloy.

Over the years I've come to prefer GC'd cast bullets for HPs because a much softer and more malleable alloy can be used, especially for magnum level handgun loads. In magnum loads I prefer COWWs + 2% tin and then mix at 50/50 with lead...or....16-1 lead - tin alloy if I'm pushing 1350 - 1450 fps. These give very reliable expansion w/o petal sloughing out to my max handgun range of 100 yards with magnum handguns. For standard cartridges with velocities in the 950 - 1100 fps I again prefer the 40-1 or 30-1 alloys.

Which specific alloy will depend on your bullet design, bullet weight, HP configuration and intended minimum impact velocity. On deer with a classic heart lung shot I've very seldom recovered a bullet and found penetration to be through and through most often. The deer die quicker also which unless the deer drops to the shot means they travel less distance.

Regardless of cartridge and bullet used in handguns I always am prepared for a quick second shot if needed as I don't stand there waiting for the deer to die from the 1st shot. If I can shoot it again in a vital area I will.

Larry Gibson

[Smoke4320]

deleted

[youngda9]

"cast bullet expansion"...first result on Google: http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCastHollowPoints.htm

Tons of info here: I suggest you read his book, it's free. http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm

/thread

[Blammer]

44 mag ww alloy will expand in deer at 50 yds.

this projectile.http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits/DSCN7761.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits/DSCN7761.jpg.html)

[Larry Gibson]

Oh yeah, aint that a good'en!

Larry Gibson

[Grendel99]

Not sure why other people get pissy when someone wants to use a hollow point cast bullet. While my expierence with cast bullets is limited to only 5 deer (3 with Keith swc's Lyman 429421 & 2 with Lyman 429640 devastator HP) I'm leaning towards the HP's. All 3 deer with the SWC's ran even after a shoulder hit on one. They certainly worked well and none of the deer made it past 45 yards after the shot. The 2 deer shot with the Lyman HP dropped on the spot and showed good expansion from internal damage and exit wound. The bullets were cast of the exact same alloy (WW + tin) , shot out of the same gun, at the same velocity (1350 fps chronographed) and at the same distances of 30-35 yards. Personally, I like the cast HP and plan to use them more while changing my alloy to 50/50 pure lead and WW's for better expansion at lower velocities. With rifles it doesn't seem that HP's give much of an advantage because the higher velocities will reliably expand a bullet even with harder alloys.

I've noticed on several occasions, that some people tend to get their panties in a wad over the subject. Not sure why they care so much when people want to use them.

[Wolfer]

If you go to hollow point mold service he has a lot of pics of HPs expanded in medium.
For my personal experience. I had Eric HP my 452-424 with a hybrid cup point. It's probably a little less than a Lyman devestator. He tried to talk me into a cup point but I wouldent listen. I should have.
Ive shot several Whitetails with these and have only recovered two that were still in the deer. One was a length wise shot and the other broke both shoulders and bulged the hide on the far side.
Both were mushroomed far below the bottom of the cavity. I've also shot several deer with solids. I can't tell much difference in the terminal effects but I get a little better blood trail with HP.

What I like about heavy HPs is if I hit heavy bone the nose will shear off but the back acts like a Nosler partition. In this situation a HP is not needed but doesn't hurt anything either. I've found chunks of the nose as much as 10" away from the main wound channel. On the other side if you land behind the shoulder and go between two ribs this is where HPs shine.
I've used both in rifles and hand guns and while I agree they may not be necessary I will continue to use them because I like their performance.
My alloy is the same in rifle and handgun. 1 WW to 2 lead with enough tin to get good fillout. Bhn about 10.
In rifles I push this to a little above 1700 fps, pistols run in the neighborhood of 1000 fps.
Woody

[357maximum]

357maximum
You didn't answer my question. Will they expand? What alloy mix?
CTI1USNRET

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When I speak of "the trick beign not to get overexpansion" I would say I did in fact enswer your question.


Not sure why other people get pissy when someone wants to use a hollow point cast bullet. While my expierence with cast bullets is limited to only 5 deer (3 with Keith swc's Lyman 429421 & 2 with Lyman 429640 devastator HP) I'm leaning towards the HP's. All 3 deer with the SWC's ran even after a shoulder hit on one. They certainly worked well and none of the deer made it past 45 yards after the shot. The 2 deer shot with the Lyman HP dropped on the spot and showed good expansion from internal damage and exit wound. The bullets were cast of the exact same alloy (WW + tin) , shot out of the same gun, at the same velocity (1350 fps chronographed) and at the same distances of 30-35 yards. Personally, I like the cast HP and plan to use them more while changing my alloy to 50/50 pure lead and WW's for better expansion at lower velocities. With rifles it doesn't seem that HP's give much of an advantage because the higher velocities will reliably expand a bullet even with harder alloys.

I've noticed on several occasions, that some people tend to get their panties in a wad over the subject. Not sure why they care so much when people want to use them.

Panties not in wad, just trying to help another not remove the off shoulder of a deer in a bloody ______ mess is all.


45 2.1 and Larry can help you with the proper alloys do shoot deer with a HP....myself I have just always been disaponted everytime I have done it....it is not that they do not work,....they can work too well in fact...... but I butcher my own deer and I see what they do...and I do not like it....you may love them......won't know till you put some venison in the freezer first...then YOU can decide for yourself.

[Grendel99]

I've shot two deer through the shoulder and they don't make anymore of a mess than anything else. I butcher all of my own deer and see what every bullet does. Cast HP's are not little atomic bombs that disintegrate what they hit. I'm still amazed at the people who seem to get personally offended if someone asks a question about cast HP's. They very much have a place in the game fields and many different size game animals and calibers. I'd rather lose one or two shoulders than an entire deer because I was worried about messing up some meat.

[white eagle]

I just harvested a deer with a cast hp in 44 mag with 16/1 alloy did not make a mess out of anything
seems people get stuck in their ways and won't allow any chance to change
I personally would like a bit of expansion and limit my velocity and watch my mix when I use them in hunting boolits
I don't claim to have all the answers or any of them I just try things if they work I use em'

[runfiverun]

I personally would like a bit of expansion and limit my velocity and watch my mix when I use them in hunting boolits
I don't claim to have all the answers or any of them I just try things if they work I use em'

I think we have a winner.

[xacex]

Sounds good to me...

[44man]

I love a HP myself but like has been said it depends on the caliber, velocity, alloy etc. It is not cut and dry. Some of my revolvers NEED them so I did not hunt with the guns this year. At least those need a softer alloy and I have not had time to work it out yet. I have gone from poked holes to massive destruction with the wrong choices so it was best to leave the guns in the safe.
My .44 has not needed a HP and the .475 sure does not need one, last four deer straight this season were DRT, instant drops.
They darn sure will expand and the problem is to limit it depending on the animal so you have full penetration.
So the question just can't be answered by me, too many variables so it will come down to experience.
Consider boolit weight too, a light, fast HP can stop before it gets where it is needed.

[btroj]

I almost lost a deer shot with a 350 gr HP in my 45-70. Hot was on the shoulder blade from above and slightly in front of the deer. Bullet blew the nose off, deflected into neck, and was found there. Deer went down instantly but got back up and took off. I did end up finding it after it was shot again by someone helping me track it.

What did I learn? Bullet was too hard and going too fast. HP cavity was too big for the velocity. Most important of all, I decided right then that a bullet needed to still be long enough to penetrate well even if the entire HP portion blew off.

If you are willing to play around and get it just right then HP bullets can work well. Get it wrong and there is a price to pay sometimes.

Do your homework

[CTI1USNRET]

Wolfer's mention of http://www.hollowpointmold.com/ is especially worth investigating.

Thank you all.

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http://americanslivingfree.com/

[sixshot]

Cast hollow points take a little experimenting but I've never known a caster that didn't like to do just that. All cast HP's are not created equal, nose shape, depth of the cavity, width of the cavity, alloy, velocity, rotation of the moon.....just threw that last one in for the Utah guys! A GC HP is a good idea because you can push them faster without leading but again it takes some test work by the shooter to find that sweet spot, when you do that they can work very well. I mostly use solids & when I use HP's they are almost always plain base but I can still make them work by tuning the alloy to my velocity.

Dick

[GLynn41]

I have only taken one deer with HPgc from a Mia mold in a .41-- I have cast and shot who knows how many before that one shot- I not only played with a Lee Hardness tester on them -- cut notches in them -sometimes a few sometimes like a Sierra power point-- also used a philips head screw driver to change mouth of the HP -- all for fun -- -my one shot with small notches -- at a normal TN doe ripped one lung apart ( step angle shot front to rear) ended up just under the skin in her hip fired from about 40 yards-- they seem to work just fine- and are easy to make from my mold -- I learned some things --practiced more and had fun-- my test was wet newspaper in a plastic bag 5" thick no more ( my son when he was young had a bow that would go through a deer to the fletch and stop and i found that it did the same in 5" of wet paper -- so there you are -- they are more violent in 5" that my LWNgc or my 230 grain Saeco Keith's -- but all three work just fine and when I boar hunt -- WLNGC all the way as my Hp are for deer size only -

[DeanWinchester]

If you wanna use a hollow point, go for it and don't let no one tell you not to………but me personally, I don't see a need in it for pistol calibers especially.
A large meplat will get you better penetration and WILL expand with the proper alloy. I use 50/50 wheel weights & soft lead for a 170g flat point in .40 S&W over 4.5g of Titegroup in an FC case w/ CCI primer from a S&W 4006. I get very good accuracy, zero leading and slugs recovered from a barrel of water…well, you be the judge. These were fired through a plastic barrel into water.


http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/DSC03094_zps0a0fe8d9.jpg

[44man]

I just cut up the small deer I shot with the .475 BFR using a water dropped WW boolit of 22 bhn. This is one of the cases where you do NOT want a HP and the boolit is good from small deer to the largest animals.
9014490145

[44man]

Why would you want to do more then this to a deer? .44 mag at 50 yards, 330 gr WLN, water dropped WW boolit. 90146

[DeanWinchester]

Booya!! Wide meplat 44 magnum for the win!!!

[357maximum]

Images like 44Man's pics are exactly the reason I do not like HP's...flatnosed cast is MORE than enough......HP's they simply ain't neccessarry for deer slaying even in more mundane calibers like the 45LC/357Mag.

Why go through extra bother to make a HP that may or may not work flawlessly and has the chance to FAIL when a flatnose with some meplate ALWAYS works when you put it where it needs to go??????? Granted there is the KOOL FACTOR,...I get it.......... but why risk it and why bother? Color me stumped



The proceeding was my opinion so go ahead scream, shout, pout, and stomp about iffin you disagree, but last time I checked the idea of this forum was to answer the OP as best as one can going by ones experiences and ONES OPINIONS that have been gained from those experiences. If my opinions trouble your notions...put me on ignore and live happily ever after. I never told anyone NOT TO DO IT....I simply said it ain't needed.

[monge]

I say use what works for you ,I don't own eney hp molds have great luck with wide metplate rounds!

[44man]

As long as you find what works. Remember all calibers and velocities plus boolit weight can be different. Darn it is so hard and I am not near done with this. I refuse to use less then the .44, consider the .357 a toy that can lose deer. It is always the boolit choice. But to see the .500 JRH do less then the .44 is driving me nuts. There really is a place for expansion but it damned sure is not the .475 and only with the .44 beyond 100 yards.
I would NEVER shoot some of those huge HP's at deer with the .44 at close range. They are super for blowing up a jug of water. I am more practical and shoot a lot of deer. One failure and that stuff goes away FAST.
Each season shows better results, slow, ongoing process, never based on one kill. No pat answers from me. You really need to see and work.
I have only one thing I found, the revolver can just blow a deer to shreds, kill perfect or lose deer.
It never astounds me more then the damage a revolver can do.

[TXGunNut]

Yes, HP's expand under the right conditions. Only problem is some alloys at some velocities are more likely to break up than expand, only thorough testing will determine the proper alloys for your purpose. Lead HP's are more likely to expand than j-words @ handgun velocities but they're also more likely to break up. If I want to make a bigger hole I start with a bigger boolit. If I wanted to learn how to make a HP work I'd listen to Larry Gibson; he's done his homework and understands and explains the results quite well.
As you've noticed, Steve, HP's are a hot button around here. Some folks know how to make them work, others swear they waste too much meat or don't penetrate adequately. I only have one HP mould, don't like casting with it and can't find a load my rifle likes with it. I guess that puts me firmly in the "big meplat" camp but I'm not a HP hater, just haven't been able to make them work for me.

[Larry Gibson]

The key to 44man's success is he uses only large caliber specifically designed WFN bullets cast of certain alloys at optimum load levels for his handgun cartridges that perform as he wants them to in the intended game.

The key to success with HPs is to use any caliber whereby the specifically designed HP'd bullets cast of certain alloys at optimum load levels for handgun cartridges that perform as we want them to in the intended game.

The end result is the same so is there really any difference?

The only "difference" is every time this topic comes up those who favor SWCs or WFN and abhor the use of HP'd cast bullets always justify their choice with partial truths criticizing the use of HPs. Is there really a need to justify one choice over the other? One criticism is the HP's lack penetration. If you use the wrong alloy or HP design the nose can blow off but the bottom half drives on just like a Nosler Partition bullet which are not exactly known for a "lack of penetration". SWCs, WFN'd and HP'd cast bullets can all fail. I'd bet 44man has had his fair share of "failures" with SWCs and WFN cast bullets which is my guess why he says; "I refuse to use less then the .44, consider the .357 a toy that can lose deer." Yet a proper HP'd cast bullet of 35 cal is a very efficient deer killer (pigs too). Note the picture of the damage to the deer. It was with a 200 gr .35 cal HP'd cast bullet at 2150 fps. A lot less damage to the deer than with the WFN 44man used. He is correct though; "It is always the boolit choice.". I have shot a lot of deer with HP'd cast bullets from handguns and rifles and have recovered very, very few of them as "penetration" was through and through. Unless the shot produced a DRT the game almost always went less distance when shot with HP'd cast bullet vs SWCs, WFN or FP cast bullets. That was regardless of caliber.

Now, am I bad mouthing SWCs, WFN or FP cast bullets for hunting? Not at all as I would and do hunt with them. I just prefer cast bullets that will expand whether cast soft or HP'd to aid expansion as they do kill quicker. I would not refuse to hunt with a hard cast SWC, WFN or FP cast bullet though as they will also do the job. It's just a matter of choice.

Another criticism is "HPs blow up". Like any cast bullet if cast of a correct alloy they do not "blow up". There are numerous examples always posted of excellent performance of cast bullets not "blowing up" but expanding as they should and killing very efficiently.

Another criticism is "HPs fail to expand". If cast of the wrong alloy they certainly can fail to expand but who's fault is that, certainly not the bullets. And if they don't expand what do we have? We have a WFN bullet (look at the pictured 429460HP) or a FP (look at the 314299 HP'd - center). Most all HP'd cast bullets are simply standard cast bullets of RN, FP, SWC or WFN configuration. If they don't expand we then have what the aficionado of non HP bullets have; a SWC, WFN or FN cast bullet....so what's wrong with that? How can there be criticism of that?

Both HP'd and non HP'd cast bullets kill just fine. The only real difference is a matter of choice. I choose to take the time to cast HP'd bullets of correct design and alloy and push them to optimum velocity (for the firearm used and the game sought) because they most often kill slightly quicker. No they don't kill "better" as with a given shot with either dead is dead. Where and under the conditions I hunt the quicker the animal goes down the less likely it may be lost. Thus the "quicker" is important to me, especially with handgun hunting.

But since I will use both HP'd cast and non HP'd cast to hunt with is there really any need to criticize one style over the other? Not for me there isn't so 44man can send me a couple thousand of his best .44 cal WFNs for evaluation if he wants to.......:drinks:

Larry Gibson

902169022090221

[gwpercle]

Yes, 50/50 mix clip on wheel weights, soft lead ( range scrap or whatever you have) air cooled.
That is the short and sweet answer to your question.
Gary

[44man]

I would if I could Larry but it is a WLN I made to fit the 11* forcing cone for accuracy. I really find no difference between a WLN and WFN on deer.
But you make good sense with your post and I wish hunters would take note of what we both say.
Some of my revolvers really do need a HP or at least an expanding nose. Only 2 do not.
Now a .35 rifle can't be compared to a .357 revolver with poor bullet choices and lack of penetration, also low energy. The chance of a good boolit stopping too fast is there.
We both see the idea of a fast expanding boolit and the very false idea of "energy dump" from a revolver.
You have seen my picture of the .475 blowing up 4 gallon jugs of water, splitting 2 more and going all the way through 17 jugs. Now if the boolit had stopped in the seventh jug, would more energy be applied to the first? It is so wrong to say a stopped boolit is better and energy is wasted beyond the animal.
I have had failures for sure but they were with too hard for the higher velocity, worst is the 45-70 BFR at 1632 fps. I went to Babore's 50-50 HP and blew the deer to mush, so yes the soft HP killed like lightning but I ruined the deer. A super deadly boolit but not what I want. It is like shooting a quail with a 12 ga at 2 feet.
I used the Hornady 300 gr bullet on a buck and it was perfect so I need to make my cast act the same.

[45 2.1]

Why would you want to do more then this to a deer? .44 mag at 50 yards, 330 gr WLN, water dropped WW boolit.

I believe the question is "Why would I do that to a deer when I know how to damage very little meat and kill it stone dead". 44 Mag... 330 gr. boolit.... really??????.... Why?


consider the .357 a toy that can lose deer. It is always the boolit choice.

A lot of deer get killed cleanly with a 357 with proper ammo and shot placement. It is not the boolit's choice. It is inanimate. You are the driver and as such, you make the decision of where to aim and when to shoot. Choose to shoot the deer where the boolit does it's work properly.


I have had failures for sure but they were with too hard for the higher velocity, worst is the 45-70 BFR at 1632 fps. I went to Babore's 50-50 HP and blew the deer to mush, so yes the soft HP killed like lightning but I ruined the deer. A super deadly boolit but not what I want.

Jim, you're using cannons on nice soft easy to kill deer. Stop shooting them where the meat is thick and you'll stop turning them to mush. HP's belong in the rib cage.............. and there was nothing wrong with the Nosler partition when it came out either....... Same here.

[white eagle]

I do not believe that Larry said any revolver or caliber needed a hp
I do agree with you Jim in that there is alot of wisdom on this board some just need to be quite long enough to hear
I'll shut up now

[44man]

90299I believe the question is "Why would I do that to a deer when I know how to damage very little meat and kill it stone dead". 44 Mag... 330 gr. boolit.... really??????.... Why?
The boolit was a mistake, working the ogive on the cherry just made it come out too heavy. But it is so accurate I can't give it up. That is the boolit that did 1-5/16" at 200 yards.
Last season I ran out so used the Lee 310 gr and it is a winner too.
Now the deer I destroyed with the 45-70 HP WAS shot behind the shoulder but I did not notice the angle and it exited the off side shoulder.
If a deer is facing me I shoot for the high neck and if quartered to me I shoot in front of the shoulders.
The thing is, the .44 never fails. If I had only one revolver for deer it would be the .44.
Now the blood you see in my pictures cleans off and there is just a hole without mangled meat but the .475 will have some burger around the hole.
I shot this deer right below the chin at 76 yards with the .475, you can see the exit. I did not lose a speck of meat and missed all guts.

[CastingFool]

Whatever you want to use on deer, whatever works for you, I'm ok with that.

[357maximum]

Whatever you want to use on deer, whatever works for you, I'm ok with that.


I agree with that statement....BUT...when the OP asked a question he got answers. Them answers will be put forth by individuals that have opinions bases on their experiences. All of our opinions are not ever going to be carbon copies and we will disagree on approach...as long as the end result is a happy hunter ...who cares. I just happen to prefer grinding my venison in a clean meat grinder on a stainless/wood bench in the house and not out in the field. :mrgreen:

[Ramslammer]

G'Day All
I have to say there's clearly many differing opinions about which cast boolit is best. I use hollow points cast with hard alloy because I want violent expansion . We hunt Wallaby and they are very slightly built so I have taylored the alloy to match. I've also cast them soft and shot Fallow Deer with hollow points. When I go shooting Camels with Mick I'll be using a WFN so it'll sink that ship of the desert. Two types of boolits, two uses. Pretty simple isn't it there's a place for both in my world. If your happy using one or the other then cast your opinion but don't discount other peoples ideas, they like you are only trying to help. I like a lot of casters have got much good advice from many on the forum. If we didn't experiment we'd still be throwing rocks and grunting at each other over a fire.
Juddy

[Irascible]

Interesting post. I shot my first Deer in the lungs towards the back, but in front of the diaphram, with a cast HP on opening day. A 454 Casull Encore downloaded to 1500 fps with 296gr, RN FP of my design (60% meplat) cast of 50/50 WW/pure + 2% tin. The cavity was .150 mouth dia. and .250 deep. Lung shot from a tree stand at about 30 feet. It went right down. Watching the animal as I started to climb down, it got up! Too much cowboy action I guess, I was carrying a 45 Colt revolver in a shoulder holster, yanked it out and put another round 2" from the first. Same alloy but 270gr with the same HP configuration at 1000fps. Well of course the animal was standing dead when the second shot hit it so it just shook a little and fell down for the final time. All good, 1 bullet made about a 1" entry the other slightly smaller. I could not find an exit hole for either round! Nor, did I locate either bullet! Dead is dead, but I would have liked a through shot on the lungs at least.
Next year, I'll go back to a solid for the Encore using the same alloy. For the 45 Colt, I'll keep the HP but toughen the alloy to 8ww/2 lead + 2% tin.

[35 Whelen]

This is my first year to handgun hunt. Did so with a 4 3/4" Uberti .44 Special. The bullets were from an RCBS 44-250KT mould and weighed 260 grs cast from ACWW and ran about 950 fps. Got a doe and a nice, big buck.

Since then, I got a Mihec HP mould and cast quite a few hollowpoints; the Pentagonal and "large" one. I fired them both into water jugs at an impact velocity of right around 925 fps. Alloy was 4 lbs. lead, 6 lbs. WW's which netted 9.5 Bhn. Here's the results:


90371

90372

The penta HP penetrated 5 one gallon jugs, the smaller HP, seven. The smaller HP appeared to have broken into larger chunks which exited the jugs of water.

Before I started in handgun hunting, I consulted with a buddy of mine who does LOTS of handgun hunting, mainly with a .44 Magnum. He essentially told me either SWC or SWCHP will work, but HP's typically kill more quickly and require less looking for dead deer.

35W

[Irascible]

"but HP's typically kill more quickly and require less looking for dead deer". Which is exactly why I tried hollow points this year. I hunt too close to a down hill slope which leads to a road and across the road are private homes. If I don't knock them down immediately, the Deer are gone. I like the lung shot for it's lack of meat damage, but I like the takedown of a shoulder shot. I was hoping, this year, to make a more devastating lung shot with the HPs, but I would have hoped for a large diameter pass through. I still can't believe that neither bullet went completly through. So, no HP for the Casull next year and a tougher alloy for the revolvers.

[44man]

Testing boolits in water or wet paper will not give a realistic account of what they do in an animal.
There is a lot of air in the chest cavity. Even that gel is not realistic. Just thick water.

[Larry Gibson]

Have to agree with 44man. I test in sopping wet newsprint but always shoot a similar "control" or "reference" bullet of known terminal performance in game into the same bundle of wet newsprint. Then by comparing the expansion and penetration of your test bullet to the "reference" bullets performance in the same test media you get a very good idea of the test bullets probable performance in game also. Doing that also allows adjustments to the alloy, HP cavity and/or velocity to duplicate or improve upon the "reference" bullets performance. That method has always worked best for me.

Larry Gibson

[Wolfer]

Jim and Larry. I agree totally. I use bob Hagels method with a long narrow box filled with rotten sawdust and fine dirt. While he mixed his with water to make a goo I find this awfuly messy. I shoot into mine dry but loosened up. I use cardboard every 6" or so to keep from digging thru the hole box.
This is a very gentle medium. It's only use is to compare it to a known boolit. With cast I'm always looking at what I consider worst case scenerio meaning a boolit that doesn't hit a bone on the way in.
My best testing medium is to roll a fresh killed deer on his belly with a suitable stop behind it and shoot it thru the ribs into the dirt. With the loads I use in pistols the HPs won't be very deep in the ground. They've about run out of steam. I've ran a weed 12" in the ground behind solids and didn't recover them.
The only HPs I've recovered from deer hit heavy bone and look nothing like these from my recovery box or rib shot deer. Their usually pretty mangled but I have one that is pretty much a perfect mushroom.
I think my point is that you can never be sure what your boolit will look like when it exits.
With my soft malleable alloy at my low velocitys I've had good luck with HPs. My pins are not very deep so if the nose breaks off I still have a heavy deformed chunk of lead that nearly always exits.

When I see a dead deer along the hwy my first thought is ( what a waste ) my second is there's some good testing medium.
Woody

[35 Whelen]

Testing boolits in water or wet paper will not give a realistic account of what they do in an animal.
There is a lot of air in the chest cavity. Even that gel is not realistic. Just thick water.

Exactly. In fact NOTHING will give a realistic account of what a bullet will do in an animal simply because there are far too many variables. What shooting the bullets in water did do is show me which bullet expands fastest and which has the propensity to penetrate deepest.

35W

[white eagle]

G'Day All
I have to say there's clearly many differing opinions about which cast boolit is best. I use hollow points cast with hard alloy because I want violent expansion . We hunt Wallaby and they are very slightly built so I have taylored the alloy to match. I've also cast them soft and shot Fallow Deer with hollow points. When I go shooting Camels with Mick I'll be using a WFN so it'll sink that ship of the desert. Two types of boolits, two uses. Pretty simple isn't it there's a place for both in my world. If your happy using one or the other then cast your opinion but don't discount other peoples ideas, they like you are only trying to help. I like a lot of casters have got much good advice from many on the forum. If we didn't experiment we'd still be throwing rocks and grunting at each other over a fire.
Juddy
well said

[357maximum]

. If we didn't experiment we'd still be throwing rocks and grunting at each other over a fire.
Juddy

You make that sound like a bad thing. :lol: Killing deer with rocks is biggun fun, don't knock it til ya tries it eh. . I have not grunted over an open fire in a few years, but that was fun also. UUG UGG TiKKa tikka nugg thugg :mrgreen:

[Ramslammer]

G'Day
Well I must admit after a few beverages I've been known to grunt over the fire as well. But when we're like that we sling S%*t at each other not rocks lol. Nothing like light hearted insults to get things rolling.
Juddy

[Changeling]

357Maximum , that was well said! Jim has been preaching that philosopy for ever, it WORKS!

Now if someone want's to try/use HP's on deer sized game, that is there business as far as I am concerned. I don't have anything against HPs.
However it sadens me to see someone waste so much meat for no real reason, but each to his own!:-(

[41mag]

When I ran across this post, I was actually looking for something else, but since I'm here I will toss out my limited experience with both and the alloy I am using.

To start off with several whom have posted above were instrumental in my getting my feet under me with casting my own bullets. I have swapped PM's with them and gotten good solid advice which has always put me down the path to success no matter what I was working on at the time. So pay heed to what they are saying and work towards your goal from there.

As such, and due to my own inquiring mind and experimental nature rolling from WFN solids to the HP's was a natural transition for me. Don't get me wrong with that, I have a mass of WFN's that I shoot and shoot regularly and have and do hunt with them as well. But I have always liked using something a little different and put in what ever work was necessary to test it, and make sure it works as well. I have been handloading my own ammo for a LONG time, and even when loading jacketed I tested them time and time again before I was ever satisfied. On my farm I have a loosely packed very fine grained sand, very similar to talc, which when slightly damp to the point of clumping in your hand does an excellent repeatable job of being a test medium. I am very familiar with and have used many times with results very closely matching what I get in deer and hogs and other critters. As such I use it nearly always to test my expansion at different ranges with different velocities many times before ever looking for a critter.

The same has been done with the cast loads. I have however changed things up a touch. Now I'm putting the dirt into a 5 gallon bucket verses simply shooting it into the big pile on the ground. I still get the results, but I don't have to spend time on my worn out knees digging them up. All that is needed now is a screen to catch the bullets and a tub to catch the dirt.

For my alloys I have three base metals, as I refer to them, and then I go from there. I have pure lead, I have WW's, and I have the LG Iso core alloy. From these I can blend what i need, or simply use as is. The COWW and Iso core will harden up quite nicely if needed as is, but at the velocities I normally run 1000 - 1300fps for most of my loads I haven't found a need for hardening. Also either used straight works perfectly well at higher velocities also, and adding a GC whether needed or not to the heel of the bullets will easily get them up into the 1500+ range. I use the Alloy calculator posted up by Bumpo to get a rough idea of what I am looking for when I start blending things up. I have found that with using my known base alloys it might not hit exactly where it says it should but it hits close enough for my needs, and it makes it a whole lot easier to work up a blend using my calculator and the spreadsheeet than to sit over a hot kettle and blend up A, B, and C alloys in small batches to go test. I still do the testing but I usually already have an idea of where I am when I do is my point.

My hollow point obsession was acquired at a young age when I simply loved to blow things up. I manipulated my factory loaded bullets into all sorts of shapes and depths to use on coyotes and squirrels. These were with rifle load though. Once I got into handguns, namely the 38 SPL to start things off, I found out real quick the 158gr RNSP was great for shooting through stuff but it didn't do much else, and some of that stuff didn't even know it was actually hit. So again I went to modifying bullets trying to get what I wanted out of them. Having a drill press and access to plenty of other things was also nice, just had to keep the shavings cleaned up really good so Pop's woodwork didn't show any signs of my experimentation.

Nowadays I pour my HP's mainly out of the fine MP molds. I have them in several flavors for all calibers ranging from .357 up through my 454 in handgun. I have at least one Keith type and one either 640 or similar that can be used as a WFN in all but 410 and I am hoping soon for that one. My HP testing started out with my 45 Colt and the 45 270 SAA and then on to the 454640, and has progressed from there. I found that similar to what has been posted straight WW will blow the nose right off the front and 20 or 25 to 1 will roll back into a flattened out mess not to mention leading up a barrel really quick with the wrong load. You have to strike a balance where you get some of each or your simply whizzin in the wind. It took time and shooting to get where my alloy was what I felt was right for the jobs I wanted it to do. Since the majority of my handgun hunting is for feral hogs I needed something a touch tougher than what I would normally use on a deer and I ended up with two alloys, one for velocities up to 1000fps and one for up to 1300fps. The first I blended up the Iso core alloy to a 1.5/1.5/97 and the latter just a touch harder at 1.75/1.75/96.5. Now these are both according to the calculator mentioned above. I simply added in enough straight lead to bring down the antimony and then enough tin to bring that end up to match the percentage of the remaining antimony. This is important or you will not have the malleability or toughness for the lead to spread and still hold together.

This is the important part of HP's which takes time and testing. With this matched to the velocity you can have even the widest mouth and deepest cavity only open up to the bottom of the cavity at a certain velocity. Which is pretty much what your looking for to begin with. If you get too much expansion, penetration is lacking and damage is excessive, so you want to err on the some expansion but not over do it. This not only dependent on the depth and size of the cavity but also to the velocity at which you drive them. As mentioned and shown above you can have too much of a good thing even with a solid. You have to set a criteria for say 95% of what you will be doing with these bullets. If like me your shooting at 50yds or less 95% of the time you work for an alloy that performs well in that range. If closer you adjust even more. If further, your going to be practicing a ton and you will find that in these situations the RFN is about the hands down the winner simply due to accuracy more than anything else. The HP's I have shot all shoot VERY good out to 50yds, some a bit further, but none at my velocities do real well out to 100yds. This is where the Keith type to a certain extent, and more so the WFN and LFN solids come into their own. At these type ranges and handgun velocities your looking for accuracy first, then penetration to get to the vital, and something with enough frontal area to create damage as it passes though. This is effectively the definition of a WFN bullet. This isn't to say a HP won't get it done, but at HG velocities your looking at having to push the envelope of the alloy IF your wanting it to expand when it gets there, and this usually pretty iffy even with that. The alloy will now have to be a touch harder than what you would need at closer ranges and will be less likely to give a reliable performance due to this. So you might as well go with the proven ticket choice.

Now take all of this and put it into the same caliber case and shove it into a Marlin or similar rifle and your right back to the drawing board. Adjusting things again for the velocity and ranges at which you expect to use them.

I hope this wasn't overly long and that it makes sense. I thought about it a bit before trying to put it all together and this was the result. Again I am not nearly as savvy as most who have posted above when it comes to pouring and shooting game with cast bullets. I do however do a wide range of shooting and testing to try and eliminate anything I can come up with before I put lead in the air towards a critter. Usually when I DO, I am pretty confident in the result and not disappointed very often. I for the most part have only used WFN type boolits on deer out of my revolvers. I am however, once i get some things squared away going to be working on the hog population very diligently with the others and using plenty of HP's in the process. Once deer season rolls back around I should have a good handle on exactly where I need to be for them as well. As much as the hogs are hated around here, they are one of the best walking test mediums I have found.

[tygar]

I hope this wasn't overly long and that it makes sense. I thought about it a bit before trying to put it all together and this was the result. Again I am not nearly as savvy as most who have posted above when it comes to pouring and shooting game with cast bullets. I do however do a wide range of shooting and testing to try and eliminate anything I can come up with before I put lead in the air towards a critter. Usually when I DO, I am pretty confident in the result and not disappointed very often. I for the most part have only used WFN type boolits on deer out of my revolvers. I am however, once i get some things squared away going to be working on the hog population very diligently with the others and using plenty of HP's in the process. Once deer season rolls back around I should have a good handle on exactly where I need to be for them as well. As much as the hogs are hated around here, they are one of the best walking test mediums I have found.

Thanks very cogent & informative. You did a great job. Good points.
Thanks
Tom