Needed-Cookie lube for black powder and low temperatures

[Frank Savage]

Hello,

I´m in a hurry seeking for a hint about lube recipe for cookie lube under PP bullet loaded with holy black. Not for target work, but for keeping the fouling in non-crusting state while hunting, several shots throughout the day are expected, possibility to wipe/clean might and also may not occur. Got some hints from kind people about commercial ones (thx KW), but seems impossible to get them in time.
Mixes of beewax and rape/castor oil 1:2-3 are too hard for deep groved 8 mm rifle in question even at 7°Celsius and also gives crust in last 6-8" of 32" barrel.
The hunt may be held under some FMAO (freezing my a$$ off) conditions of -10° of Celsius (and less) and windy, depends on where the weather turns, so the lube shall be good even for this.
From what is on hand,
1 beewax
4 tallow (or lanoline, if the delivery will be fast enought)
1/2 to 1 castor or olive oil

feels to be somewhere around OK-but I have no experience with such low temps (dry air) and cartridge guns. Also, just one quick test on the range possible, the time is tight-the invitation was pretty sudden and of the kind a man can not denny.

Many thanks

[bhn22]

A "Search" function request for "grease cookie" turned up a lot of matches. There's a lot of info in the Black Powder section. This one closely matches what you have on hand.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?187309-Lubing-PP-Boolits&highlight=grease+cookie

[btroj]

Not sure that a grease cookie will keep black fouling soft over a long period of time. They will help over a short time frame but over hours? Don't know.

I would ask in the BP section. What works for target shooters will not likely help in the field, they can wipe every few shots and only need soft fouling for a few minutes.

[Frank Savage]

I used the search, I´m accustomed to cold using my 45 ML, but this needs somethink else and it´s out of my experience. Since no hint was mined out of it all, I ask. There are threads specificaly about lubes for low temps, but from and for smokeless guys shooting greaser.

Very probably I´ll have oportunity to swab the bore by some kind of a bore pig, but want to have possibility to wait 1/2-1 hour, since being caught by herd of wild boars angry from being disturbed, with pants down errr swabing the bore can be pretty close call under given terrain/shrubs combo and known "assertivity" of some of them

[nhrifle]

I have used SPG sticks extruded into cookie strips with excellent results under both grease groove boolits and paper patch.

[bhn22]

There's quite a lot of information on it. Search the black power board for "grease cookie". Mollys post there is especially great, and goes into detail about how he made the flat sheets to cut cookies from.

I miss the old guy.

[btroj]

How far are the shots you are taking? Have you proven to yourself that this is even an issue? If you come up with something that gives acceptable accuracy at the range you will be shooting then I say run with it.

[country gent]

Emmerts improved has been working for me this past summer not sure how good it is in cold temps though. 50 % beeswax 40% crisco 5% canonla oil and 5% lanolin blended in a double boiler. If no lanolin up the canola oil5% more. For colder weather maybe less beeswax more crisco?
I have also had good results with spg in cookies under paper patched bullets. SPG gets softer everytime its extruded and harder when heated melted.
In the very cold dry you need to keep in mind that there wont be ny moisture in the air for lubes to use you may have to blow tube after the shot to supply the moisture to start with. Once you find the lube mix that works the thing to find is the thickness of the cookie need to even,y coat the whole barrel. I have used up to 1/4" thick in my 34" barrels.

[Shooter6br]

Member here "Junior" uses beeswax and vegetable shorting http://www.castbullet.com/makeit/lube.htm#buylube

[Frank Savage]

I have now mainly lube issues even at 50 meters, since with last 6" of crusty mess in bore, the patch scrubs against fouling just where the bore starts to get the most of its internal, muzzle-oriented conicity. Even I got light leading twice, albeit I get nice (but except first 2-3 shots not perfect) confetti puff.
Well, first three shots from clean bore are quite OK, but then POI wanders 2-3"with anything above 30+% beewax plus any non-petroleum oil for the rest-proved to be too hard. And I don´t want to aim on anything live without being pretty sure about how the shot in question and the next one for possible backup will go.

Thanks for pointing out the Molly´s threads, it seems to be very educative. As I was focused too much, I missed it in results and overlooked in bunches of results of not-so focused search.

[Brad Phillips]

I have used the Emmert's 50-40-10 and also Rooster BP-7 extruded into .150 thick ribbons. I was loading BP (compressed) wax paper, lube cookie, LPDE wad and a 457125 in a Pedersoli Sharps. Used to shoot strings of 25 buff targets at between 200 and 600 yards. Had to shoot whole string with both knock downs and time being considered. (no time to wipe)

I made a homemade lube extruder with a piece of 1 1/2" pipe and two end caps. Slot one end cap and drill a whole in the other for a plunger. Used a bolt and the appropriate sized washer for the plunger.

[Thundermaker]

Beeswax and olive oil works very well in my c&b revolvers.

[dikman]

The one that seems to be most highly thought of is Gatafeo's #1 - 1 part mutton tallow, 1 part paraffin wax and 1/2 part beeswax. It's been around quite a while. I mix it equal parts and punch out 1/4" thick pills for my revolver. At low temps they will stay solid, but the heat when fired will soften them pretty quick!

[John Boy]

Gatafeo's lube is from a 1943 American Rifleman article and have been using it for about 4 years now for all my BPCR reloads.
40% Mutton Tallow
40% Paraffin
20% Beeswax
When solidified it is hard (makes a good GC) but don't let that fool you. Why?
38-55 with FFg KIK - 375166 bullet greased with the lube and a dry felt wad:
* Shot 50 consecutive rounds with no patch or blow tubing - no decrease in accuracy from 200 to 500 meters
One wet cotton ball & 3 dry ones and my bore looked like this ...
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgway%20May%202011/DSC00399.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Ridgway%20May%202011/DSC00399.jpg.html)

[Beekeeper]

John Boy,
Please do not think I am argueing with you but I have always been told and most of what I have read says never use a petrolium product with black powder.
That said I am very interested in your lube and would like to learn more about it.
I googled the lube but got no response.
It may be because my google foo is extremely lacking.
Most of the BP rifles I shoot are 100 year old military types and I am always looking for a new product to make them shoot cleaner and better.


beekeeper

[Enyaw]

Paraffine wax is highly refined and the hydrocarbons are in some compatable state with the black. It can be Googled up as to why.
It's been said from scientific lab analysis that medicinal mineral oil,also highly refined, is a secrete ingredient in a well known succesful commercial lube.
Some black powder cartridge rifle competitors use it in their lube,I guess.
I use paraffin wax with beeswax and olive oil ,,or any lube type stuff like Canola oil,caster oil,tallow ect.ect. in cap&ball revolvers and muzzleloader rifles. I start with equal amounts of the incredients and go from there. Softer is made by less paraffin and more of the actual lube ingredient. Softer always works better.
Try a recipie with more lube ingredient than wax for cold dry weather.The grease cookies need to be just hard enough to handle when loading the cartridges.
A little experimenting starting with equal parts wax and lube stuff would be a way to get into the experient.
Melt the wax/lube in a small pan floating in a larger pan of heated water. Mix the liquid wax/lube well. Take a small pan with high enough sides to hold boiling water.
Pour the liquid wax/lube into that and the wax/lube floats on top. Let it solidify/cool and when the sheet can be gotten out of the pan with the water all the sheet of wax/lube will be the same thickness for consistancy.
I get better results with my lube pills/grease cookies by loading them directly on top ther powder.
Don't ever use wads or grease cookies in a load chain where the wads/grease cookies add up to much of a space since......they compress with the ignition and can spike the pressures when the gases hit the bullet that then acts like a bore obstruction and cause a detonation. Never use a long space under the bullet taken up with wads/grease cookies. Keep it minimal to avoid any chance of detonation.
Personally I wouldn't use black in an 8MM rifle. It might be better to use Hodgdon 777 or Alliant BlackMZ where the fouling is less than with black. With the subs the use of smokeless type lube would be advantageous I'd guess.

[Outpost75]

FWIW in blackpowder CARTRIDGE weapons I have used for MANY years EQUAL PARTS by melted volume of Crisco and beeswax.

In muzzleloading rifles and cap & ball revolvers use THREE parts of Crisco to one of beeswax, which is a very SOFT lube.

In winter weather where the hunting temps will not go above freezing use 4 parts Crisco to 1 part beeswax. Do not use in warmer weather.

In extended below zero weather or as a range expedient when you will shoot soon, you can use straight Crisco.

If you cannot get beewax, a satisfactory substitute is equal parts by melted volume of Gulf canning paraffin and Vaseline.
THEN use this 50-50 max in the same liquid proportion as if you had melted beeswax.

K.I.S.S. principle!

[357maximum]

John Boy,
Please do not think I am argueing with you but I have always been told and most of what I have read says never use a petrolium product with black powder.
beekeeper


That same ol regugitated lie/mistruth/falsehood is just plain wrong IMHO. I have proven to myself waaay too many times that vaseline/mineral oil/paraffin/microwax are just fine in a blackpowder lube recipe to believe it for an instant.

The lighter more refined petro's listed above are fine to use in BP applications despite what the naysayers be sayin....I might even go so far as to say they will outperform all the "natural" stuff except tallow from a deer or a sheep....that natural tallow stuff do work and it is free if you have the right connections or kill a deer.

Deer tallow and soft microwax in the right proportion should work for what you are doing too if you cannot get beeswax. My fronstuffer lube for conicals has no beeswax in it...... just home rendered deer tallow and soft microwax #430 from blendedwaxes.com mixed 50/50 .........a stiffer microwax or higher % of microwax and tallow should work for a cookie but I have never tried it for your exact application.

[dikman]

I thought the same thing about paraffin wax at first, but doing lots of (muzzleloading) reading shows that it's widely used, in all sorts of concoctions, without causing any problems.

Enyaw, are you referring to Ballistol by any chance? It's just highly refined (medicinal grade) mineral oil, with a bit of alcohol added, nothing special. I also tried baby oil (medicinal grade oil) mixed with different stuff, but found it too soft - plus it smells from the scent they put in!

For what the OP wants, the Gatafeo mix is a good start imo. (Mutton tallow is an old standby for those who want to use natural products).

[Beekeeper]

Thank you gentlemen for the information I was seeking.
It will save me a lot of trial and error and a lot of supplies.
Sorry my google foo is so bad I did not find it on my own.
I did read all of the stickies and did not find anything about it.

357 maximum,
Sorry if my humble attempt to gain information from this web site offends you so much.
Maybe you should talk to Gunload Master and see if he will ban everyone that asks a redundant (to you) question.
I'm sure he will oblige you being as you are such an everday word here on Cast Boolits.
I look forward to seeing the banned under my name.

beekeeper

[357maximum]

WTH? ...color me confused......I was merely trying to help you mr beekeeper man.....again....wth?

[dikman]

I'm confused too :confused:. I re-read the posts and I'm blowed if I can see anything in them to cause any offense.

[Enyaw]

Dikman,
I was referring to mineral oil not Ballistol. I've mixed Ballistol in some lube recipies experimenting. It didn't have any adverse reactions I could see but....I'd mix so many things together then fooling around I couldn't say much about any single thing.
People shouldn't count out soy wax as a sub that's more economical than bees wax.
Candle making supply places sell it. There's soy wax for container candles and then soy wax for candles that stand upright on their own. The container wax is softer.
Experimenting one should but the lube pills in the freezer and see later how solid they are. If too solid then they blow out without lubing much.
The bullets make a difference too. The more lube they hold in the lube grooves the better. The "Big Lube Bullets" and the moulds sold by "Dick Dasterdly" at the CASS site work well. The recipie they promote,"Pearl Lube" is just half Crisco and half beeswax and they say it works really well in the Cowboy Shoot competitions. It would be soft. It's used on the Big Lube Bullets and not grease cookies or Lube Pills.
People say that with the Big Lube Bullets their rifles run all day without the fouling build up and have a nice lube star at the muzzles showing the lube runs the whole way down the barrel.
When I use Lube Pills in the Cab&Ball revolvers....like a mix of paraffine and bees wax and tallow,or.....Crisco ,Canola oil ,olive oil, I can shoot a couple hundred balls without too much fouling to foul things up. Always a hundred balls fer sure in any humidity or cold or dry hot weather.
In cold weather I use "cold weather lube pills" that contain less wax. In hot weather I use "Hot weather lube pills" with more wax. Soy wax seems to have a lubricating effect of it's own compared to bees wax that in itself isn't a good lube.
Wax just holds the lubey stuff in suspension so the lube isn't too soft but soy wax having some lube effect to it is a plus.
The Cowboy shooters/competitors say that it's "the good thing" if there's a nice "lube star" on the muzzle. I concur with that.
In Cab&Baller revolvers I learned that putting the lube pills right on top the powder works real well and the accuracy or the consistancy of the "shot to shot" isn't noticable.
I put the lube pills, when I use them, right on the powder in BlackPowder cartridges too and get good results.
The lube pills can stick to the balls in the revolvers or the bullets in the cartridges so....Ifin yer going fer the ultimate accuracy a piece of paper under the ball or bullet stops the sticking of the lube pill to the projectile. Cap&Ballers I don't bother with the paper under the balls unless I'm bench shooting a revolver I tuned up and want to eliminate any possible adverse variable but......shooting off hand with the Cap&Ballers I seem to get the same accuracy with or without the paper under the balls.
The Black Powder Cartridges always get the paper under the bullets when I'm shootin longer range that's more than plinking for fun. Balls don't seem to be affected much from a Cap&Baller revolver if the lube pills stick to them but......bullets don't like lube pills sticking to their bases.......the all important bases. There's almost always a vegetable fiber wad under the bullets in Black Powder Cartridges anywhooooo......
I should add.......the soy wax is effected more by warm weather than the bees wax so.....in hot weather the soy wax needs a little more paraffin to stiffin it up.
Buffalo Arms sells these really cool wad cutter dies fer putting in the leading presses. The dies cut paper wads and wool wads. They have a couple different lube ribbon extruders fer the loading presses too. Those boys there can give some insight as to good lubes to use fer "The Holy Black" powder.
One thing.....ifin you use conicals in a muzzleloader barreled rifle having a frozen lube on the conicals it makes fer some very difficult loading of the bullets in "cold weather".
It ain't that easy to buy a lube fer bullets that stays soft in the cold frozen weather. I use,when hunting with a Hawken rifle I made with a 45/70 ordanance grade steel fast 1-22 twist shallow grooves barrel, a lube that stays soft sos I can reload quick after a shot to have the next shot fer the "coupe de Gra" ,if the game needs a quick clean kill when the first shoot doesn't do it fast enough. I seldom need that second shot though,not to change the subject ha ha ha , since I won't shoot unless I'm 100% sure of the shot. I use the 520 gr. Lyman Gov't bullet mould and bullets with.......a flat I make on them when putting them thru the bullet swag that makes them more like a long heavy wadcutter bullet. Puts them down with a nice clean quick kill.
Anyway.....I broke my nice hickory ramrod once when ,like a dummy, I used SPG lube on the bullets and lube/sized the .458 bullets to .459 so....there was a .001 in. of lube outside the diameter of the bullets. Frozen Lube. The bullet was really difficult to get in the barrel even though the swag I use puts the rifling grooves on the bullet sos they will load from the muzzle without turning into mushrooms before they can get in.
The moral of that story.......don't use lube on a bullet in the frozen weather that freezes solid. Not even on a bullet that's in a cartridge with "The Holy Black".
The only lubes I know of that don't freeze are the ones made with.....GOD FORBID......petroleum based ingredients.
The forbidden fruit....petroleum based ingredients in black powder lube come in handy at times and......there are lubes out there with petroleum based stuff in them that work well. When I used muzzleloader lube "Spit Ball".....in lube pills with beeswax.......the barrels of my Cap&Ballers stayed shiny clean even after several cylinders full of balls fired.It was made with petroleum based stuff.
There is....an allox product that works better than any thing else fer the black but......I don't know which one out of seemingly hundreds of different alloxes there are. There are a whole list of allox types. Google it up.
It used to be in a commercial lube that's not made anymore that was exceptional to keep barrels shootin the Black clean.
I'm just sayin.....even though I adhere to the old tale that oil based stuff isn't good fer lubes fer the Black, that there are lubes with petroleum based ingredients that work well.
The "Blue and Grey" lube fer black powder ,if still made, doesn't get froozen so it's good to make lube with for winter cold weather.
I imagine if I needed to make cold weather lube fer bullets I'd try a soy wax with olive oil or Crisco or corn oil ect.ect. as long as there was enough oil to not let the stuff freeze. I'd go with mineral oil or vaseline too in wax fer huntin since when hunting not that many consecutive shots are fired. Vaseline was used backin the day fer makin lube fer shootin the "Holy Black" powder. I saw it mentioned in the book by William Wellington Greener ," The Gun and it's Development".
I'm not a fan of petroleum stuff in my lube but,......there are petroleum things that work. I just don't know what some chemist does to the petrol stuff to make it work well. ha ha ha
People are sayin......mineral oil is good fer the black powder. I found a long time ago that just by itself on a patch fer a ball in a muzleloader rifle it does not work real well but ........with wax they say it does. Go figger that????? What is this world coming too?

[John Allen]

I have been using the Gatefeo recipe for a while now and I am very happy with it. It works for me I extrude my cookies..

[dikman]

Thanks Enyaw, interesting post. From what I've picked up in my reading, mineral oils, in general, are not a good thing to use in BP guns (other than for coating bores against rust). Highly refined oils, however, don't seem to cause the same problems. A common patch lube, for instance, is water soluble cutting oil which some also use for wiping between shots. It's basically highly refined mineral oil with an emulsifier added.

I've been using the pills directly over the powder in my 1858 and it works fine. After about 50 shots the cylinder pin is starting to foul up, but the barrel itself is generally pretty good. We don't get freezing-type temps here, so I only have to worry about them getting too hot/soft (which happens if I leave them in the car in summer!!). I find the all-equal-parts mix works ok (so far).

[John Boy]

Please do not think I am argueing with you but I have always been told and most of what I have read says never use a petroleum product with black powder.
Beekeeper - there is no argument that BPCR reloads should not use a petroleum product. I agree 100% because using a petroleum product hardens the foul and depending on the quality of the powder - the foul hardens like a dry hard 'brick'

But paraffin is not a petroleum product THOUGH it started out as such. It is refined into an alkane, with a hydro carbon chain.

You'll get a better understanding reading these ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraffin_wax

Paraffin wax is a white or colorless soft solid derived from petroleum that consists of a mixture of hydrocarbon molecules containing between twenty and forty carbon atoms. It is solid at room temperature and begins to melt above approximately 37 °C (99 °F);[1] its boiling point is > 370 °C (698 °F).
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/organic/alkane.html

The alkanes are highly combustible and are valuable as clean fuels, burning to form water and carbon dioxide

In chemistry, paraffin is used synonymously with alkane, indicating hydrocarbons with the general formula CnH2n+2.

Be sure to read Other Uses listed in the Wikipedia write-up such as:
* Bullet lubricant – with other ingredients, such as olive oil and beeswax
* Solid propellant for hybrid rocket motors

And if the Mrs gives you any heat mixing up the lube on the kitchen stove, just tell her your preparing for her a ...

Wax bath for beauty and therapy purposes:violin:[smilie=s:

I have on my To Do list to substitute the beeswax in the lube with Microcrystalline wax

[webfoot10]

I shoot a .62 cal smoothbore and in cold weather I use a waxed card wad punched from a milk carton on top of
the powder charge, a dab of pure snowcap lard and a lard lubed patched RoundBall. I shot 20 shots last weekend
and did not need to swab between shots. The lard is easy to get and should work in your rifle if you put a card wad
over your powder, use only the unsalted lard. It's worth a shot, try it.
webfoot10

[Enyaw]

There's a lot of good opinions here especially since most come from actual experience. This thread could get most anyone headed in the right direction concerning lube fer the Holy Black.
The one factor seen most is....putting enough "lube stuff" suspended in something like wax that doesn't have ill effects.
I've heard of using that machining water soluble oil several times else where. Must be something to it and worth a try.
I haven't changed over to things like mineral oil or other petroleum based products but I don't dismis the possibility that some oil based things are usable. I tried mineral oil by itself on patches fer the round balls and my rifle had that hard dry fouling.
I should break out a cap&baller or muzzleloader rifle and give the wax/mineral oil another try and reaffirm the results fer myself.
I can't dismiss the fact that I've used lubes sold commercially that worked really well and on the container it was printed it contained petroleum products. Back in my earlier "Black Powder Life" my favorite lubes were those commercially sold petroleum based lubes. They worked.
The craze started by SPG Lube with the secrete passed on(I infer since they all had the same touted qualities about them) to other commercially sold lubes I call "The yellow stuff", took over the market and caused some good lubes to fade away because of the competition created by "The Yellow stuff".
It all seemed to have the same scent mask added to it so I assumed the secret ingredient could be identified by smell. They all stated the stuff would season the bores like the old iron frying pans and that ALL oil from storage should be cleaned out well and then not used in conjunction with the yellow stuff. The yellow stuff was to then and forever be the only thing used in the bores for lube and rust prevention.
Thing is.......it's been said the secrete in SPG lube(that works well and can be used to make lube pills/grease cookies with good results) has mineral oil in it. Doesn't make sense so.....maybe the fact stated it has mineral oil in it is mis-information. All the "Yellow Stuff" sold by Thompson Center/CVA and others I guess contains whatever the "secrete ingredient" is. They all came out not long after SPG did. Maybe people in business had the SPG lube that worked well analyzed and discovered the secrete.
Therefore since the SPG and "The Yellow Stuff" works it can be bought and mixed with more wax to make lube pills/grease cookies that work well.
The story was told.....S.Garbe who invented SPG lube that was used by him to win a match and for ther first time...he was someone that shot the match without wiping between shots.
He discovered the secrete while on a ranch in winter "ranch sitting" and wanted to shoot his cartridge rifle with the black and had no lube so...... found something there to mix with wax and found it worked really well.
I wondered since I read that what was there at a ranch that was used to make a lube with beeswax? Of course I wondered what kind of ranch it was too? ha ha ha ha
It's enough to drive an Hombre crazy.Oh well. I still have my old stand by with beeswax and paraffin wax and tallow/olive oil/Crisco/lard/SPG Lube/Wonder Lube yellow stuff/vegetable oil/Pam/canola oil/ ect.ect.ect.ect.
The thing is.....there needs to some lubey stuff mixed with wax with......enough of the lubey stuff in there. Just have to stick some recipie i the freezer to test if it freezes in the cold weather.
I haven't run out of my old stand by for freezing weather that is.....CVA Grease Patch that....isn't sold anymore. I believe it contained petroleum based something or other in it. Doen't melt at high temp. Fights corrosion. Keeps fouling soft relatively speaking. Doesn't get really hard in freezing weather. Feels greasy and is messy when lubing bullets with it.

[John Boy]

Enyaw, actually SPG was invented by Steve Garbe & Mike Venturino when they were partners - since split up. Mike is the only other person that knows the secret ingredients of SPG other than Steve and his wife.

[webfoot10]

Deer or sheep tallow & beeswax, is all you really need. Hot weather use more beeswax for a harder lube, cold weather
use the tallow or lard with less beeswax. Been shooting for 40 yrs. and it's all I use. Why try to reinvent the wheel.
webfoot10

[dikman]

Enyaw, don't get me started on "seasoning" rifle bores!![smilie=b:. Many of these commercial products will work, but basically they're only there to make money. Which is why there's always something newer and "better" coming out, to try and separate you from your money. I'm with webfoot.

[John Boy]

Many of these commercial products will work, but basically they're only there to make money. Which is why there's always something newer and "better" coming out, to try and separate you from your money.There WAS ONLY ONE real bore conditioner and cleaner - Lehigh Valley Lube. Unfortunately the patented formula is no longer made due to the death of one of it's creator's
BUT ... sitting under my workbench is a quart jar of pine tar oil, the primary ingredient in the product. And tacked to the wall over the workbench is a copy of the patent with the formulation process ... a To Do one of these days :D

[bigted]

Enyaw, actually SPG was invented by Steve Garbe & Mike Venturino when they were partners - since split up. Mike is the only other person that knows the secret ingredients of SPG other than Steve and his wife.

John Boy ... i did read that Venturino couldnt get his bp sharps to shoot for beans with blackpowder till he met Garbe and tryed "HIS" magic lube and so after he convinced Garbe to make it and sell it for others to be able to group their bp catridge shooters.

said as much in his book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the old West". Venturino shot smokeless before that to include his African trip with his sharps.

[bigted]

Enyaw, actually SPG was invented by Steve Garbe & Mike Venturino when they were partners - since split up. Mike is the only other person that knows the secret ingredients of SPG other than Steve and his wife.

John Boy ... i did read that Venturino couldnt get his bp sharps to shoot for beans with blackpowder till he met Garbe and tryed "HIS" magic lube and so after he convinced Garbe to make it and sell it for others to be able to group their bp catridge shooters.

said as much in his book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the old West". Venturino shot smokeless before that to include his African trip with his sharps.

[Gunlaker]

Frank, you might want to ask over on the ASSRA forum about Alberta Schuetzen Lube. I've not heard anyone use it for lube cookies, but there are claim of I working well in grease grooved bullets at very low temperatures. It can get awfully cold in Alberta in winter...

Chris.