Why some new members will do better than others here.

[Recluse]

In reading various posts the past few days about a perceived "generation gap" regarding the instant-gratification individual versus the research & learn individual, it seems some new members (and old ones alike) wonder why their questions don't receive the attention that some other new members' questions do.

To answer that, let me ask this: How much work or study or research have you put into the questions you are asking?

We have a literal lead-mine of information on boolit-casting and reloading here, with much of it being exclusive to this site because many members here pioneered techniques and methods in regards to lead projectiles that are used by cast bullet shooters all over the world.

But you have to take the effort to read and study those "stickies" in order to glean the information. When you want instant answers to basic questions, it is indicative that you haven't done any research or made any effort into finding the answer or solution yourself.

This doesn't pertain simply to boolit-casting or reloading. It is pretty much universally applicable across all disciplines of interest.

I'm a pilot and aircraft owner. Prior to my medical setbacks, I was giving out some free time to a couple of aspiring pilots, both recently out of college and working at good jobs. Both had around 20 to 25 hours in their log book. I am not a CFII, so while I can fly from either seat (right or left), the students cannot log PIC time and the time spent with me and my airplane is simply to help them gain experience and knowledge.

The female student had finished her ground school, taken the FAA written test (and passed it) and had her Airman's Third Class Medical which served as her student pilot license. The male student had his logbook and a Bose ANR headset and this Airman's Third Class Medical which served as his student pilot license.

Both had decent stick and rudder abilities, but the female was by far the smarter pilot and asked far better questions and was far more serious about becoming an airman rather than just an airplane driver. The male asked the same questions over and over, or asked basic questions that he should've learned in ground school, but for which he was "too busy at the moment" to deal with.

After three flights, I told the male student to find someone else to mentor him, that I was done. He was literally flabbergasted that I would show him the door to our hangar simply because "all he wanted to do was get his license and be able to rent a plane now and then to fly his girlfriend and buddies around." I--and the other pilots along our stretch hangars--explained that there was a helluva lot more to it than that, but he just didn't get it then and I doubt he ever will.

One of my neighbors is not only still taking the female student up, but was present when she solo'd and caught the whole thing on video for her. She's serious and she's putting in the work and study necessary to be a good pilot, and more importantly, a safe pilot.

At this site, Cast Boolits, most everyone here has been casting and reloading for at least two or more decades, with most of the older members having double that. The lessons learned have come from a variety of means and methods, no shortage of which has been reading, researching, studying, and trial and error.

We stress safety here above anything else. Knowledge equals safety. Old-timers know what happens when water gets under molten alloy. We can laugh about the Tinsel Fairy, but the reality is, she can hurt and maim you bad and do it so quick you won't realize what's happened until the ER docs explain it to you.

A couple of years ago, I put a forefinger digit and a middle finger digit in a ziploc bag for the paramedics to take to the ER in hopes that they could be reattached to the shooter who'd blown them off--the result of not bothering to read or research or study anything when it came to reloading. As I'm putting a tourniquet on his arm below the elbow, another shooter asked him where he got his load data from. He told us (and later in court during a civil lawsuit trial that he lost) that he had never read a reloading manual, didn't see the need when he could go to any one of a hundred gun forums on the internet and get all the answers he needed.

In the shooting world, you kind of have a hierarchy and it goes something like this:


--Gun owners. They own a gun for whatever reason, but rarely if ever bother to shoot or practice with it. But it makes them feel better/safer for having it.

--Casual gun owner & shooter. They own more than one gun, usually, and make a point to shoot at least once a year, often times more. They're generally safe and careful with their firearm, but have extremely limited knowledge as to how it functions, how ammo functions, etc. A lot of hunters fall into this category as well as suburbanites who keep a firearm in the house for protection, but who realize the need to stay reasonably proficient with it.

--The serious gun owner. This person owns a number of guns, takes pride in his or her collection, knows the brand and make of each gun in their possession, keeps adequate ammunition for their firearms and enjoys shooting and is generally quite competent and proficient.

--The reloader. This is the Serious Gun Owner who shoots very often or with great enough frequency that the economics and supply/demand qualities of reloading make it a no-brainer. Lots of competition shooters fall into this category and most prefer progressive presses that can churn out lots of ammo in a short period of time. Once they find a good load, they (usually) stop there and crank out ammo by the hundreds, if not the thousands. Very knowledgeable, very safe, very competent and proficient shooters and gun-owners.

--The Handloader. The Handloader is often the Serious Gun Owner who has graduated at the reloading bench from a basic undergrad degree in assembling his or her own ammunition and is now embarked on a graduate-level quest for creating customized ammunition for each firearm they own. Sometimes they develop ammo for specific situations for each firearm, such as cold-weather loads, high-altitude loads, strong wind/crosswind loads, large specimen (or small specimen) of the same game animal loads. The Handloader lives at the apex of the shooting world.

--The Bullet Caster. The Bullet Caster shares the apex of the shooting world with the Handloader and the benchrest shooter. All are looking for optimum performance and results after each pull of the trigger. To these people, it is a whole and complete package--the gun, the ammo, the shooting. Some cast their own bullets thinking that it will save them money--when in reality, it allows them to shoot MORE for the same amount of money. Some have thousands of dollars invested in molds and furnaces and lubesizers; others have less than a dead Ben Franklin. But all view themselves as craftsmen, as artists of a sort because we are creating our own projectiles to go in our own seemingly unrelated array of components of brass and primers and powders. In this world micrometers and calipers and neck-turning and annealing and chamfering and case-trimming are but a drop in the proverbial water-quenching bucket in terms of tools and techniques used to create the ultimate cartridge.

What we've learned over the years has been acquired through endless hours of reading and study as well as discussion and finally thousands upon thousands of rounds loaded and fired at gun ranges all over the globe.

No one here minds lending a hand or mentoring new reloaders or boolit-casters. New members are urged to read the "stickies" for a simple reason: Damn near any and every question someone new to reloading or casting could ask or think of has already been addressed, in depth, in one of the stickies.

What most folks here do mind, however, is the attitude of Entitlement--as in, "You already know the answer so what's the big deal about just telling me instead of telling me to go read the archives?"

If you were to ask one of our resident psychologists here, who happen to be extremely experienced reloaders and casters themselves, what traits of the typical member here might be, they would tell you that either at or near the top of the list would be "Self Sufficiency."

We cast and we reload because we can and we do not want to have to rely on anyone or anything else in order for us to manufacture our own ammunition.

Another trait would be "Generosity." I myself have lost count of the number of members and new casters this site has helped with everything from finances to hunting to equipment lost in fires and burglaries to getting new casters set up with equipment.

So to any new member that may think we're grumpy or selfish or cantankerous (we are cantankerous) because you may get a chilly response to "Can I tumble-lube regular boolits that don't have tumble lube grooves" or "Can I load and fire gas check boolits without the gas checks" or "I just got a new Taurus .357--what's a good load" or "I'm thinking of getting into casting. What stuff will I need" and other such questions addressed not just in the archives and stickies, but that is available with even the simplest of a Google search, then so be it.

But for those who have a true passion and who at least take the effort to read and research in order to ask quality questions beyond the scope of what has been assembled in the "stickies," you'll be hard-pressed to find a better place to be than here.

:coffee:

[aspangler]

A+ to this. I have been loading and casting for YEARS. ( shsuh!!!! don't tell anyone! LOL) I still ask questions and am still learning but I HOPE I'm not asking stupid questions. Yes I ask advise on starting loads but I work up from there and match to MY firearm. I think that is what we're supposed to do. I think that you have made a VERY good point and that this should be made a Sticky. Way to go Recluse.

[jimb16]

I've been reloading and casting for over 40 years. I rank myself as slightly higher than a beginner. The more I learn, the more I realize that I don't know. With so many variables (weight, primers, powder, charges, seating depth, checks, sizing, fillers, etc....) I'll feel lucky if I ever get accomplished in a single caliber!

[waco]

Wonderful post.From a nubie with 14 years under my belt. Still tons to learn for me.

[btroj]

Well said Recluse, very well said.

I like the hierarchy of gun owners.

[s mac]

I'm sure still wet behind the ears, and really appreciate the knowledge so freely shared here. I have spent a lot of time reading stickeies, I don't know why many others don't.Even I wonder about some questions I see.

[Jailer]

Heck I read as much as I could on this site for about 9 months before I even joined.

[waco]

Well said Recluse, very well said.

I like the hierarchy of gun owners.

+1 on that as well....

[smokeywolf]

Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling when someone puts so eloquently into words what many of us here, including myself are thinking. Good analogy with your student pilots.

Pilots, reloaders, drivers, whatever the discipline, knowledge not earned is oft times not learned; or is frequently soon forgotten. Those folks looking for the quick and easy answer are I think the ones that pose the greatest risk to those around them. Because of their reluctance to study and research to find the answer to a specific question, they miss so much knowledge that they would have acquired on the way to uncovering the answer to their original question.
Also, if you haven't done some basic research on your own, how do you know if you're asking the right question?

One of the more important factors to be considered in extracting knowledge from powder, bullet and firearms manufacturers as opposed to individuals on the internet is, the companies and manufacturers have far greater resources for testing and compiling safe and accurate data and have much more to lose if their data proves unsafe.

Recluse, thank you for your article and this thread.

smokeywolf

[scb]

Well said Sir. I've been casting and reloading for 42 years now. I don't come here to teach, but am more than willing to share whatever I know, I do come here to learn. Most of the time that can be accomplished without asking any questions.

[waksupi]

Instant sticky. Thanks, JD!

[jonp]

Great post

[slim1836]

Thanks,

When Recluse types, everyone should read.

That's what makes this forum the standard to go by.

Slim

[cbrick]

True that on the difference between reloaders and handloaders except under handloading wildcatting should be included, both working with existing wildcat rounds and sometimes even developing their own.

True that when you've done this for decades before the internet, had to figure it out yourself or not do it at all that's it's simple to get tired of and ignore questions such as . . . Are there any good loads for the 38 special? Not all newbie questions are so obvious in their lack of research though and I enjoy helping these people as much as I can. With some making posts such as "I see no need for loading books, the money is better spent elsewhere", or "loading books printed on dead trees is outdated" my first thought is that I'm sure glad these people aren't the ones next to me at the range. There is so much more to it than just a recipe.

This forum truly is a vast wealth of knowledge, when I came here I had been shooting cast exclusively in all of my firearms for years, I was competing in long range handgun and doing pretty well. It sure was a happy day when my cast boolits beat the some of the best in the game shooting the most expensive bullets you could buy. I passed on as much of what I had learned as I could but the truth is that in 8 years here my casting technique, equipment & more has improved radically from what I've learned here and continues to this day.

I'll continue to help those that wish to learn and mostly ignore those that see no point in learning and only want to be spoon fed. For those that wish to learn there is thousands of years of collective knowledge here and most are willing to help. This probably is a cold place for those without the desire to learn, probably not intentionally cold but understandably so.

Rick

[Adam10mm]

That's part of the fun of this hobby. You learn things by taking the hard way. I found my favorite cast bullet and load for .45 ACP by trying many powders and working everything up. No one ever told me about it, I figured it out for myself. I learned a lot about how different powders behave at different charges, what I liked in a powder and what I hated in others. You can't buy that knowledge.

[Uncle R.]

I've been a reloader - make that a handloader - for over forty years.
I've been a caster for over 30 years.
In that time I've striven to learn as much as I could - studied and read and experimented.
I had considerable success in some areas - won some shooting matches and killed a lot of game with my handloaded J-word ammo.
I even won a match or two with boolits that I cast myself.
There was still a lot to learn. Until I came here I didn't even know how much I didn't know about casting - and didn't know how much I thought I knew that was flat-out wrong.
That mistaken "knowledge" came (in most cases) directly from the manuals, books and articles that were available to me as I learned the casting craft. Not all ignorance comes from lack of attempts to learn. I was fortunate to have a few people over the years take the time to mentor me and help me over some rough places in my education. Some of those people are lost to my distant past, but some of them are here on this board today.
I agree that there are people whose impatience and unconcern with learning makes them poor candidates as reloaders, let alone casters - but when I get annoyed with foolish questions I think back to those who were kind to me and remind myself that I have much to be grateful for. I can't pay them back - but I can pay it forward.
<
Uncle R.

[462]

Well said,

Prior to reading this thread, I read one regarding Lee's handgun carbide factory crimp die. I doubt if there has been as much posted, discussed, and debated about one piece of casting/reloading equipment as that infamous die. Now, there's another thread about an old and tired subject.

Working with Buckshot, I started a sticky about what moulds Lee's six-cavity handles will fit, with and without modifications. Other members added their experiences, making the sticky very informative and comprehensive. Still, someone will ask if Lee handles will fit a Brand X mould. The information is there -- look for it.

I, too, am a relative new caster, but am more than willing to help any member as long as they've shown that they've done a bit of homework and are willing to learn. I've given equipment and manuals to new reloaders, to help them get started.

The knowledge that exists inside this site's archive is truly amazing. It's a pity and a shame that it sits there gathering dust, because so many members prefer the easy and lazy way to achieve their ends.

[geargnasher]

This needs to be a sticky. I don't mean that in a cantankerous way, either.

I understand both sides, I came here as a 15-year noob who'd shot is own cast boolits in three calibers, two pistol and one rifle. I'd put literally BUCKETS of WW through one of them. One of my first questions to this forum was asking for help with my Kimber .45 leading. I hadn't read all the stickies, but had read enough to realize that at the time, there were some holes in the basic data here. Nobody had put of a thread specifically addressing the importance of FIT, or the relationship between gas leaks, leading, and lube. The function of boolit lube had been discussed a lot, but by experienced shooters who all understood fundamentally that lube doesn't stop leading if fit is bad. I didn't get that from books, or from general reading about cast boolits. I got that from people here, because I began asking the right questions.

Since then, I vowed to try to fill some of the gaps in the archived information here as I learned them myself, and learned the fixes. I have attempted to shine light into the dark and often mis-understood corners of the hobby in the hope that it could shorten the learning curve of people coming after me. There will always be people in front of me, and people behind me, but I try to move forward on my own mission, wherever that leads me, and if I discover things along the way that seem useful I try to share them in an understandable format. My mission has been to learn and share, to make this a better place for all of us, and to repay the debt of knowledge that I owe to so many who helped me pass my first undergraduate casting classes.

Many people think I'm sour, cross, pedantic, or condescending in my posts. Sometimes that may be the case, but I'm not a "personal" kind of person, I'm interested in facts, what works, what doesn't, why it does or doesn't, what others do that don't work for me and vice-versa. If you tell me that beeswax cleans lead I'll show you that you're wrong and show you why and how it matters. BUT NOT FOR THE SAKE OF PROVING ANYONE WRONG. I do so for the sake of helping people understand what they're doing so it will bring more joy to their experience, as do many other dedicated members who have their pet "soapboxes". Some people are very resisting to new ideas, new concepts, and new-to-them information (for whatever reason, it varies), so there is a natural conflict with someone like me. So be it. I'm not always right, but I do the best I can to share the GOOD information and quash the superstitious wives' tales that have kept some of the finer points of this hobby in the dark for so long. We all tend to do things a little differently and rarely all have exactly the same opinion regarding what "works", but most of us can certainly agree on what DOESN'T work because we have those T-shirts hanging in the back of our closets.

In the past few years the information mine available on this site, and on Castpics, has increased by leaps and bounds. It is a Mecca of knowledge all wrapped into one neat package. Yes, it takes a while to figure out to find it, but all a new caster needs is already right here. If they resent being pointed to an article and asked to read, or to purchase a loading manual and actually read its text, then perhaps this hobby isn't for them, or at least I am the wrong one to be teaching them.

Generally, as newer members learn and master the basics, they are eager to share with others just joining, or just making a foray into a new part of the hobby. This un-burdens the more advanced casters so they can discuss more advanced challenges. Sometimes things get out of balance and there is a gap, which I'm seeing now. Lots of new people with little knowledge and a lot of questions, but for the most part only older, more experienced members are participating in answering them. To the inexperienced members, all I can say is be a good student, hone your research skills, take an active interest and responsibility in your own learning, and the teachers will come along when you're ready.

Gear

ETA: Wow, ten posts while composing that. With all that has been said, this is rather an epilogue! Thanks Ric for sticking it, I was going to PM you with just such a request.

[40-82]

I'm new to this site, but I'm not new to reloading. I've been at it for over fifty years. For years when I came to a problem that I wasn't sure how to solve or had an idea that I wondered how much sense it made, I imagined that there was somebody out there somewhere who knew what I needed if I could only find them. I've found them now. Sometimes I find myself reading on this site for hours about boolit casting and hand loading situations that I may personally never find the opportunity to try just for the pure fascination of learning about how someone who is really good goes about approaching the problem. As of yet, I haven't asked many questions because most of what I do with cast boolits is neither sophisticated or ground-breaking, and if I need an answer I can usually find it with a little research. I appreciate your words, Recluse.

[Brad Phillips]

hierarchy of shooters... very well thought out.

[Jeff H]

What's wrong with you guys? Get with the program! If you can't get the answer with a few quick swipes of your thumb on your magical touch device, it's not an answer worth having.

I have to admit to having become very annoyed at what I have perceived as a "set" which seems to have come along and discovered bullet casting right about the time it started getting very difficult to buy cheap blasting ammo. There has been a bit of a surge since last December and I hope it begins to subside and that those who are interested in learning from themselves and others stick with it. I also hope that those who just seek to ferret out another cheap way to use up a lot of ammo quickly and loudly don't.

I have been granted the opportunity to teach about one percent of those to whom I have extended the offer to handload. The other 99 percent of the time, the inquiry was more about shooting for free, or at least cheaper and they declined the offer.

I have been granted the opportunity to teach ONE of the very few I have ever offered to help get involved in casting and that ONE became a small, local commercial caster for many years until he remembered how fun casting USED to be. All other inquiries were thinly veiled sniffing for "free bullets." That ONE caster, my Dad and my gunsmith are about the only people I talk to face to face about casting. Everyone else is either not interested in investing the time and work to learn or they are already dead. I do miss the dead guys.

One of the greatest things about casting and handloading is that no matter how long you have done it, or how much of it you have done, there is always something more to learn. I have been at it for over forty years but worked within a narrow band of "what worked" (which was NOT what I found in published sources) until I started seeing what others had ventured into here. It's been interesting and the effort involved in learning has occupied a lot of my time, which might have otherwise been spent on much less productive activity - or as my Wife sees it - it keeps me out of trouble.

I teach, so I see this a lot. The first thing I tell my new students is that learning is WORK and that some of us will just have to work harder than others.

Good thread and a marvelous use of this wonderful thing we call the Internet.

[olereb]

For what its worth my wife yells at me because i'm on here reading so much,i am new to casting but not to reloading which I had to teach myself(no mentor)so I fully understand the frustration some people can cause(hopefully hasn't been me)when they don't put forth any effort of their own.

[btroj]

For a useless nit of paper my first Lyman manual sure shows some wear. I still use it even though it is put of date, it has data the newer ones don't have.

People also need to realize that none of us gained 30 years of knowledge in a week, we did it over 30 years! Be patient, learn what you can, when you can.

You learn more at the casting, loading, and shooting bench than you do at the computer desk! Go shoot. Pay attention to what works and what doesn't. Learn to make observations and how to see what is really happening. Natural curiosity sure helps but this can be learned.

Bullet casting is best left to people with a natural need to tinker. It is about making things work, seeing what happens "if", and finding a way to make things work YOUR way.

[375RUGER]

Thread/Post of the YEAR!

[Sweetpea]

The OP should be required reading for joining the CB family...

Brandon

[Ghost101]

I enjoy, for the most part, the "Sticky's" here. Before finding this place, I had read three or four books on casting. Still don't understand everything talked about. LBT's book took forever. Started casting because of one firearm purchase, .500 S&W.
Before I retired, I didn't have the time for any of this casting. My reloading was by the book since the age of 12. I would find a load that was listed an play with it until it worked for that firearm. I must admit that I am a slow learner an need to be shown why an how.
Born in MO, just goes to show you.
I think - frustration - is why so many new casters ask the questions. I know for myself, I'll look around until I ask, it may very well be here but I as of yet have not found it. So I will ask that stupid question that more then likely has been run a round many times before.
Although I have found the answers in threads that didn't look like it would be there. If that makes any sense.
Wish I could remember how I found this place. May very well have been in "Handloaders" mag. Mike Venturo maybe, don't remember.
Great place an thank you for letting me be here.

Ghost101

[DRNurse1]

You folks are GREAT! I had to copy the OP for my kids. The oldest, at 19, is finally getting it as demonstrated by his improved work ethic. The middle guy, not so much, but a work in progress.

I have been a reloader for MANY years. I saw the armorers in the USN having fits over rifle loads and have restricted myself to loads I use commonly, that is my competition pistol loads. Still learning about them, but have had no major malfunctions since a squib round that bulged a pistol barrel 20+years ago. SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY (to steal from the realtor location, location, location thing) are the three most important things I have learned.

The same levels described for members here by Recluse can be extrapolated into nearly every occupation/ hobby/ profession. The AACN, my professional organization, has described the novice-to-expert model for years, and it basically follows Recluse's description. One point I am trying to stress for my kids is that mentorship is freely given (opportunities come to those who are prepared) and can easily pass you by should you treat them as anything less than a treasuered gift of your mentor's time. Recluse provided a concrete example of this, and I wish folks (my kids) could reflect on opportunities freely offered which have not gone well in their past.

Thanks again for all you have done to help my progress in my search for that magic boolit.

[varmint243]

There has been a bit of a surge since last December and I hope it begins to subside and that those who are interested in learning from themselves and others stick with it. I also hope that those who just seek to ferret out another cheap way to use up a lot of ammo quickly and loudly don't.


I see it another way,
We now have an opportunity created for us by the influx of shooters into reloading and casting using the relatively new communication tool we have.
We can take the time to help "those who just seek to ferret out another cheap way to use up a lot of ammo quickly" into finding reloading and casting to be an interesting new addition to their shooting hobby.
If we show they how to do this successfully maybe they will stick around learn and grow the hobby and carry it forward into the next generations.

[LynC2]

Recluse, you outdid yourself! An excellent post that is well thought out, accurate and so true. :drinks:

[Notwithstanding]

Well said Recluse! There is a ton of great information here for the beginner. I've been using this site for well over a year and I have found answers, or at least opinions, to every single question I have had thus far... and there have been many! My goal is to get to a point where I can help to grow this body of knowledge. Until that time, I will continue to troll the threads.

This is my first post to the forum. I wonder how many other lurkers there are out there?

[glockmeister]

Recluse, very well put and thank you! Most folks these days want things their way and right now. When you meet someone with integrity, manners and a good work ethic it suprises you. Thanks again, John.

[Bzcraig]

The OP should be required reading for joining the CB family...

Brandon

This is exactly what I was thinking! J.D.'s post is spot on but sadly the ones who should be reading it won't because it is their MO to just 'ask' instead of 'read.' If there was a way to enforce reading the stickies as a prerequisite to full privilege on the site I'd vote 'yes.'

[Digital Dan]

Recluse, very excellent post sir, and the philosophy behind it applies to virtually all endeavors. My history includes helicopter and fixed wing, instructor to ATP. Was also an accident investigator for the Army and got to figure out where pilots went astray. One of the all time classic pilot interviews ended with the pilot stating "The primary cause of this accident is administrative error. I never should have graduated from flight school." Then there is the near 25 years as an enroute ATC puke/instructor.

I would offer one slight critique however, that being the missing category of "shooting looney". I have spent too many hours reading McCoy, Litz, Mann and Roberts, thus I know my guilt. Much of what I read on forums makes me flinch, but I recall days when I was was more energetic if less thoughtful.

Carry on,

Dan

[Love Life]

Great post!! Now....if ya'll don't mind me asking, what is a good load for a 148 gr WC in the 38 special?

[theperfessor]

You gonna shoot that with or without a gas check?

Good post Recluse.

[w5pv]

I just got through reading this thread from top to bottom great job guys!!! Thanks to all of you for the great thoughts.I rightly don't know how long I have been casting and if twisting a piece of paper into a funnel making trot line sinkers will count on the time frame or not.My thing is safety above all.Whatever you do practice safety.

[garym1a2]

3gr bullseye

[DrtRacr09]

My suggestion for the excellent post penned by Recluse would be to make this into some sort of "Terms of Use" (required reading) when making a new account. Another would be too make it a flashing banner instead of a sticky, because, as most now, stickies just make ya scroll down farther for the good stuff.:kidding: Love Life, can't help on the load because you didn't say if your brass has a cannelure in it. But I would like to ask, would it be OK to use PVC pipe for annealing gas checks?:idea:

[bhn22]

Well, we're certainly not doing anybody any real "favors" by typing a few lines to quiet them down. I've always felt that you're not helping people unless I tell them "why", and "how", in addition to "what". We're not passing any real knowledge along by giving away the short answers. Come to think of it, the whole damn countrys a lot like that anymore.

[jmort]

Right thread at the right time. I just got blowing off some steam at member asking for "Ruger Only Data." Said he could not find data. I should have just ignored O/P, but just for kicks I did a google search for "Ruger only data" and on the first page there was a boat load of excellent data. Took 10 seconds. O/P indicated no bullet weight and no powder, just a blanket question. Blanket questions are wet blankets. I hope he owns a Ruger. If you care about being here, act like you care.

[jmort]

Who lives in Nevada?

[Love Life]

I live in Nevada. Why?

[CGT80]

Great post, Recluse!!!

I have been reloading for 20 years and seriously casting for the last year or two, but I still have to remind myself to go search for the info I need and to check out the stickies. Yep, I missed the sticky on shooting GC boolits without the GC. I had done it in a revolver, but wanted to do it with a rifle. I was used to zooming down the page and skipping over some of the stickies.

I am pretty good at researching. Sometimes I find the answer right away, and other times it may take a while to stumble across what I need (like cleaning lead or oxide build up from mold cavities). If you know how to find it, and it is listed properly, all your answers are probably out there.

The description of shooters is great. I started out shooting and loading at the same time so I could shoot a few times per year. I got into action pistol competitions around 4 years ago and fell into making bulk quantities of one load. My Smith 460 revolver got me back into casting and making up more tailored loads. That led to casting and loading for my rifles which led to a lever action match two weeks ago. Now I am looking for a tailored load that is easy on the shooter and economical, so I can save money..........errrrrr.........I mean shoot more.

I have offered to take many people to the range with my equipment, or theirs, so they can get a feel for the shooting sports or even just get familiar with a pistol for self defense purposes. None of them have taken me up on the offer. I am teaching a range buddy to reload, but he was already a member of the private club I go to, and he likes the idea of actually learning to craft his own economical ammo. He will probably be the type to run one good load all the time. I have also taught my roommate to shoot and reload (she went target shooting as a kid) but I lead the way and she helps when we load ammo. She would probably try handloading on her own, if she had her own place and equipment, but for now I make the critical decisions as I am paying for the supplies and the ammo is used in my firearms.

I hang out at Calguns forum, but I really like this forum because people are serious about the craft. There is less BS here, and more learning/teaching.

Thank you, long time shooters, for passing on the info.

[ultramag]

Generally, as newer members learn and master the basics, they are eager to share with others just joining, or just making a foray into a new part of the hobby. This un-burdens the more advanced casters so they can discuss more advanced challenges. Sometimes things get out of balance and there is a gap, which I'm seeing now. Lots of new people with little knowledge and a lot of questions, but for the most part only older, more experienced members are participating in answering them. To the inexperienced members, all I can say is be a good student, hone your research skills, take an active interest and responsibility in your own learning, and the teachers will come along when you're ready.

Gear

I think this paragraph is as timely and accurate as the original post. The balance here is out of whack with so many new casters. I am one of them having just gotten interested in the end of 2011 beginning 2012. I read here for months before even joining. Gear is correct in that it is somewhat exciting to me to be able to help someone with a basic question that I have learned over the last year or so. It has also gotten so bad lately that even I can't believe some of the things people ask even once, let alone again and again and sometimes only days apart. Things are asked and/or reposted before they even get off the first page of posts, let alone the fact there's already a sticky on it! [smilie=b:

This site is quite intimidating at first I believe, even to long time handloaders. The vast amount of knowledge contained is staggering, the way some things are grouped doesn't make sense at first, and their's a whole different language and different methodology to doing things with cast vs. how I used to do things. Most of what you've ever heard about casting before you came here is wrong so you have to dump that "knowledge" at the door. It is worth every bit of time and effort it takes to digest what is presented here though. R5R progressed my casting by years on another site before I ever melted lead. He may not know it because I was mainly just reading his answers to other peoples questions over for the most part, but he did. I've found the things I picked up from reading his posts priceless and accurate.

For all you old cantankerous hands, thank you! Please don't give up and keep on keeping on. I still desperately need your help. :lovebooli

[dikman]

Very nicely put, and the hierarchical listing is probably pretty close to reality. One of the problems these days, however, is that the current generations are used to instant answers. You can see it everywhere - someone says something, or asks a question, and someone will whip out their mobile phone/ipad, bring up google, type in a question and there it is, instant answer. No need to read manuals, and all the other "irrelevant" stuff in there when all you want is an answer to a specific question.

Me (being an oldie), when I get interested in something I spend untold hours scouring the internet and associated forums, reading books etc. trying to learn as much as I can (someone once said that knowledge is power). That is part of the enjoyment, for me, reading and learning. I have a need to understand my new-found interest.

But you left out Black Powder shooting in the hierachy [smilie=1:.

[gray wolf]

One word answer about your post JD
EXCELLENT

[prs]

A big THANK YOU to Recluse! Some of us with grey beards have an intense understanding of a narrow niche of the total scope of this forum. True Masters of our little corners of the great quilt. Even Chuck Yeager probably had a few dumb questions he asked without extensive self research before he found himself seated in an X plane. So when new bee asks how many ounces of tin to add to a bucket of wheel weighs to make hard casting lead; well, have patience with the poor devil.

A few of those Tenderfoots may make Eagle Scout.

prs

[Adam10mm]

Right thread at the right time. I just got blowing off some steam at member asking for "Ruger Only Data." Said he could not find data. I should have just ignored O/P, but just for kicks I did a google search for "Ruger only data" and on the first page there was a boat load of excellent data. Took 10 seconds. O/P indicated no bullet weight and no powder, just a blanket question. Blanket questions are wet blankets. I hope he owns a Ruger. If you care about being here, act like you care.
I'm on a couple reloading groups on FB and that kind of stuff goes on all the time. I dodge those and let the other guys chime in. I'm just on there to spread the gospel of the cast bullet lifestyle.

[jmort]

"I'm just on there to spread the gospel of the cast bullet lifestyle."

Amen

[Adam10mm]

"I'm just on there to spread the gospel of the cast bullet lifestyle."

Amen
Battling it out with one guy that believes in the jacketed hype real bad. Posted a pic of his cape buffalo. Big deal. Cast bullets can kill them too. Clinging to the late 19th century nonsense really.

There are more with me than against me though. Maybe we all hang around together on FB and not know each other's names from our screen names here on the forum?

[DrtRacr09]

Sounds like the same one I'm on there too Adam, they all seem too go like "I've never reloaded before, what do I need?" Three out of five replies are, a Dillon 650. Have yet too see a suggestion for a book.

[Adam10mm]

Sounds like the same one I'm on there too Adam, they all seem too go like "I've never reloaded before, what do I need?" Three out of five replies are, a Dillon 650. Have yet too see a suggestion for a book.
Actually one of the ones I'm in when that question is asked, the first 5 responses are usually having to do with buying and reading The ABC's of Reloading before buying anything. It's quite refreshing.

[ogre]

My, oh my.

[John Argent]

Recluse I have to say after reading your post and the responses to it I am printing your post off and framing it to go next to my computer. I will admit I am more of a lurker and normaly dont post on sites but have in the past tried to search for information and after not seeing what I was looking for after a few quick searchs pulled the old look for the librarian routine. "Excuse me I know its here somewere could you point me to .............." but I think I am going to go back and read every stickie to see just what I might have missed.

To the forum as a whole I have learn alot of things over the last couple of years from the members here by just lurking and reading and would like to say Thank You.

[MT Gianni]

Great thoughts JD. I have occasionally wished I could go back to being happy with one load that shoots well from each of my guns but still have that burning desire to improve each one.

[T-Bird]

Very good post, your thoughts concerning todays instant gradification society mimic conversations that my wife and I have had for a variety of topics where this personality trait is a liability( she is a teacher in public school). My cudos to you for being able to type fast enough to put that much print on "paper" in one day.

[wmitty]

Perhaps a test/quiz should be made up by our resident psychologists to be giving to new members to allow them to see the type of mentality (personality?) that is required to become a boolit caster?

[runfiverun]

only one or two questions would cover the test.
something like do you fix stuff around the house or work on your own vehicles?, would pretty much cover it.

back to the O.P.
J.D. you missed a section in the hierarchy.
the guy's that go beyond the gun part to delve into the what's and how's of internal/external ballistics, or into the depths of why things like lube affect the first shot or a long string of shots.
or even the next step of reloading beyond wild catting where they figure out how to actually fit a case to an off the shelf rifle and hold a boolit/bullet in the centerline of a barrel.
or how to actually measure a guns throat and see what a boolit should be shaped like to actually fit beyond just making the thing larger in diameter.
those types of things are what make this sight great, many here know and understand those [and more] and will share if approached with an open mind and a sincere attitude.

[btroj]

House yes, vehicles no.

[BNE]

As a new caster, this site has saved me tons of money and time. Thanks to all the folks who have been patient with me! I hope to add to the science.

PS, House work, YES, Vehicle, minimal.

[OBIII]

JD, you Sir are the Man! Excellent write-up, well thought out. I thorougly enjoyed it. No wonder you wrote a book. Merry Christmas and keep up the good work.
OB
(The only "stupid" question is the one not asked.)

[olafhardt]

I am impressed by the width and breadth of the technical knowledge and experience brought to this forum by the members. I am amazed at the amount intelligently directed experimentation that goes on and also the stoopid things that people confess to like shooting chronographs. Lots of people are comfortable posting their goof ups and we can lèarn from them and analyse them. One thing about the stickies is that there are so many of them but only because we don't throw away gold. In fairness in researching on this sight I have often gotten an information overload.

[badgeredd]

One of the problems these days, however, is that the current generations are used to instant answers. You can see it everywhere - someone says something, or asks a question, and someone will whip out their mobile phone/ipad, bring up google, type in a question and there it is, instant answer.

But you left out Black Powder shooting in the hierachy [smilie=1:.

Recluse has done it again! Eloquently stated what I've seen and commented on different times. GREAT post!!!!

I quoted the above because I will say that it "SEEMS" that many of the questions wanting instant gratification come from the younger members, but I have seen several from new members that should be mature enough to study a bit before popping out the repeat questions. I personally have tried to ignore questions that are extremely basic and have been answered in multiple posts before. Sometimes I will point a fellow in the right direction, and on occasion I'll answer although I usually will add a source for further reading.

I have noticed a trend though in the mid-level members NOT answering other's questions. When I get really frustrated with the "silly" questions, I try to remember that Molly and several others that have departed would occasionally point a guy in the right direction in hopes that he would learn how to help himself somewhat. We have lost many since I joined, but I see many others coming along that at least partially fill those empty shoes.

Thanks for a great post Recluse...

Edd

[cbrick]

Not so much repeat questions that bother me. I don't expect someone brand new to casting either to know their way around this rather large forum or have read it here before. There are still a lot of old wives tales floating around even in the printed media regarding casting and it's easy to see where/how a new guy can get confused. The ones I tend to ignore are the ones that obviously have done zero reading or research, questions like "Are there any good loads for a 38 special"? Questions such as "what kind of lead should I be looking for for my 38 special" is an entirely different type of question and sounds like someone that really does want to learn something.

Not very much recently but a few years ago there was a rash of posts that I called alphabet posts. A long paragraph without a single capital letter or punctuation mark, not a period, comma, nothing but line after line of a very long string of letters. Those were ignored, I rarely got through the first line of letters before going to a different thread. Those posters were screaming to me loud & clear that they couldn't care less how hard to read their post was just figure it out and tell me what I want to hear. Yep, sure I will.

Rick

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

cbrick has made a good point in the above post without really saying what is on my mind after reading this thread.
So to that I'm going to issue a challenge to our educated masses hear. We all know that the search functions of forums
leave something to be desired, and while a lot of us have had to learn "how to phrase a question to get what we're looking for" on, say, google,
the same needs to work here. My challenge would be that when you give a response to someones query, try to phrase it in such a way as to make is
easier for searches to bring up good results.
I will agree, that there is a literal ton (or more) of info available here. I spent months reading before I signed on to this forum.
Yet, when I go searching for something, I often encounter pages of search hits without a hint of what I'm looking for.
Rephrasing your search many times makes a huge difference. So, I'm asking that when posting, we take enough time to think,
"how can I phrase this so that someone might find it in the future".
Recluses OP is outstanding and is very sticky worthy, glad to see it was made.
This is a great forum, with a huge wealth of knowledge, and I for one just want to say thanks to all who make this what it is.

[fouronesix]

Why do some newbs do better than others?

On some threads maybe half the answers are not pertinent to the question where the "expert" responder simply didn't read or can't read with comprehension. Some answers are simply wrong, overly simple and/or purposefully cryptic, vague, cute or poorly represented. Some newbs are more prone to slick language or sales pitches that sound good and are easy and cheap--- just human nature. While some other newbs THINK about all the responses then use the matter between their ears and proceed to learn mostly by their own independent research, experience, common sense and initiative.

[badgeredd]

Why do some newbs do better than others?

On some threads maybe half the answers are not pertinent to the question where the "expert" responder simply didn't read or can't read with comprehension. Some answers are simply wrong, overly simple and/or purposefully cryptic, vague, cute or poorly represented. Some newbs are more prone to slick language or sales pitches that sound good and are easy and cheap--- just human nature. While some other newbs THINK about all the responses then use the matter between their ears and proceed to learn mostly by their own independent research, experience, common sense and initiative.

THAT is a very valid point or three. We as responders to a question need to understand the original question and keep on point as much as possible. Usually incorrect responses (meaning simply wrong information) will be dealt with post haste by others.

Edd

[paul h]

Recluse, very well said!

I don't know that this is so much a generational issue as an issue of approach and expectation.

This could be exemplified if you had a student show up who wanted you to teach him or her how to cast. There is the student who really wants you to teach them how to cast so they can do it on their own, and then their is the lazy selfish sort who would be most content for you to do all the work for them. The difference between one who gladly wants to recieve knowledge and one who is simply a taker. We've always had lazy selfish sorts, nothing new under the sun when it comes to human behaviour.

Nobody likes a mooch.

[TXGunNut]

Well said, Recluse et al. I suspect that many newbs find their way to us via internet queries because many of my searches lead right back here to my online home. I don't mind answering the simple questions but I try to help the poster find more info if that question indicates an incomplete understanding of the process. I'm into my 4th decade of reloading but casting is something that's relatively new to me. I feel I've learned a huge amount here and at my casting bench but each trip to either place shows me how much more I have to learn.
It's so true that a certain aptitude and a solid knowledge of firearms is required for a successful boolit casting experience. Not everyone who stumbles into this site will stick with it long enough to experience the wonders of the cast boolit. On the other hand new members keep a site alive, no forum can survive without them. Many folks on this site are patient and gracious teachers and I feel I owe it to them to pay it forward.

[jeepyj]

Thank you, Wow what a great post!
Jeepyj

[JSAND]

There is something to be said for "LURKING" I have been here for over 3 years and there are guys that joined less than 3 months ago with a higher post count than me. Not insinuating in anyway that there is something wrong with that. Most people are more personable than I am. I don't post alot on here, not because I don't get on here much but because every question I have had is somewhere on here already. That being said, even after lurking for some nine months before I joined I look back at some of my first post and I asked what I call some stupid questions. I was in Afghanistan when I joined this site, and as I said, had lurked for some time before I joined, it occupied a lot of the few hours I had for personal time over there. Young people are trained for instant gratification by the society they grow up in. Even if they don't have the smart phones or computers at home they see it at school or at family or friends homes, they know it is out there and that it's easier to just get online and ask in some search engine for a quick answer. When it refers them here, they think why wade through the "stickies" when they can just start a thread with their question and get an answer. Obviously there are several lines of thought on this subject based on the post in this thread. There are however only 2 real options on the matter, either their question gets answered or everyone tells them to go to the "stickies" it's already answered in there. Being rude to someone because you are mad about reading a "Stupid Question" I think is uncalled for. Even if it's not until you open up the thread and read the OP's question that you discover it's a question that has been asked a hundred times before, it's still easier and less stressful for all involved if you would just hit the back button and move on.

[Down South]

Great write up JD.

[boatworks]

" Young people are trained for instant gratification by the society they grow up in."
I agree whole heartedly with your entire post and I especially see the wisdom of this statement. I worked with a lot of young people for over 30 years and I also have 5 kids of my own (all grown up) so I have first hand experience with the instant gratification phenomena. I think this even extends into a lot of other areas as well.As far as this thread is concerned what is frustrating to a lurker/newbie person is having your question answered by several answers from several people.
"Hit the back button and move on" is good advice.

[runfiverun]

that is because quite often there is more than one correct answer.
for instance leading in a revolver.
it could be several different reasons cylinder throats, barrel throats, frame constriction, scroll work on the barrel, the sights dovetails.
not to mention the load and boolit details.

[WILCO]

Instant sticky. Thanks, JD!

+1 and ditto for me!

[77ruger]

Ditto +1 and same as above

[olafhardt]

A while back I asked what a lee soup can is. I got 2 replies the first, from a moderator said to go to the stickies. The second told me it was a lee 113 grain boolit.
I just now tried the search function for lee soup can. I got tons of data, I mean pages and pages. The first page had two posts about 7mm soupcan boolits. The second had no threads with the word "soupcan" in the title. There were a bazillion more pages which I am sure tell a whole bunch about the lee soupcan. But the way I found out what a soupcan was tonight was to go to the list of my posts and find the one where I asked the question. I have found the search function on this site to be about useless. I once was envolved in all sorts of searches, ie patent, tax and environmental regs, research etc, so I am not unfamilar with digging stuff out. ButI have found it

[olafhardt]

I have found it very difficult to search out stuff on this sight. I have read and reread stickies and probably have read over half of them. I am not sure on that, they grow pretty fast.
Without a doubt this is my favorite site on the whole internet. There is so much about several of my favorite topics. But fellers we suffer from the problems of success. If a gun person doesn't come here there is a vast hole in his background. Even we who have been here for years learn new stuff here. If you want to ignore a noob fine, but I think this sticky is great but overly critical. A lot of us old farts make blunders. I learned that since I just plink I don't need a chrony any way.

[bhop]

can i use your heirarchy of gun owners as my signature or will it be too long lol maybe i can find it in a sticky ... ill be back

[wallenba]

Been reloading 40 years. I've learned more than I'll ever use. Most of the casting knowledge came from right here in the last 5 years. Yet, there is still more to learn. The whole powder coating thing is Greek to me, and the stickies and post threads on it are long and daunting. Well, I'll get to reading them as soon as I can find anymore room in this shrinking reloading room for the 'stuff' I'll 'need'.

[Lead Fred]

I can tell you the day I started reloading. Jan 20th 1961.

Yet I'm still learning today. I teach a lot of youngins how to reload, and until about their 30s, It seems it takes them a while longer to catch on, then older folk.

Ive been using the same case trimmer (Wilson case lathe) since 1961. I just bought the stand & lock lever last month.
Guess Im getting lazy in my old age.

[RogerDat]

This site is an entire public library unto itself. Devoted to a topic that has it's own technical language which makes searching it a challenge for new comers that may not have mastered the language and specific terms. A link to the thread (sticky or not) or other resource is a most welcome help. I'm currently reading two online books suggested by the experienced and helpful members of this forum. One suggested after I already found it in the sticky, one that was new to me. But as pointed out in prior posts even people doing this for decades find more to learn.

I'm one of those new folks to casting, yet to cast more than lead ingots that I smelted from scrap I have held onto for at least 15 years thinking "someday", and having just reloaded my first box of the ever popular .38 special with used brass I have kept for at least that long, again thinking "someday". I don't mind RTFM (aka Read The Friendly Manual) in some ways I prefer starting there so I can get a broad overview. On the other hand with something that has the potential to cause injury to self or others if a mistake is made the personal mentoring of experienced people is extremely important. To paraphrase a prior post the only stupid question is the one you don't ask but should have.

I think there is a lot of truth in the OP regarding the hierarchy but also some folks that don't sort neatly into those categories. I want to save money, AND enjoy the satisfaction of a job done well. I enjoy learning the how's and why's of things that interest me. And while I enjoy reading I also enjoy learning from people. Taking what I have learned and using it.

I'm not ever going to own a large collection of guns, reload massive quantities of ammunition, or be a competitive shooter. But we also own at least a few guns beyond the number required just for self defense. I will spend more time at the range if the cost goes down and I can afford to shoot more, because I enjoy target shooting. My wife will enjoy her shooting more if I can develop a load that is accurate and more comfortable for her to shoot. Don't think I will take things to the level of expertise that many here have, but would hope to develop a level of competency that will allow for a safe, successful, and interesting hobby. I have at least one and possibly two grand children that may be interested in learning with me. May never take it up but are just naturally curios and willing to learn. A trait I would like to encourage.

I can't justify a large expense for a new hobby so I need to seek guidance on the choices I have to make in how to spend money. I also need to as much as possible avoid costly mistakes so I appreciate greatly the help, support and mentoring provided by members, in addition to the informative reading. Often that information I'm reading is in response to a question, without those questions how would there be any answers? Of course there are many stickies or informative threads that are a result of people being generous with their knowledge and time to provide a tutorial or guide aimed directly at new people. It is good to see on reading those threads that many of those new people take the opportunity to post a thank you.

It's an age old issue highly experienced people mixing with the rookies, saw it in the plants, warehouses and offices I have worked in, see it here. Worth noting I'm sure I annoyed my share when I was "Newman" and I mostly worked through it to competency (eventually) as did many of those that annoyed me in my time as the "old hand". Today's idiot may be the person who becomes the go-to for the tough problems in a few years, with a little help. Or maybe a lot of help, or maybe never. Hard to tell at the beginning, time will tell.

For what it's worth I have built and fixed a lot of stuff over the years, making bullets or boolits is just the latest. Think casting and reloading are more my speed than pulling and rebuilding a truck engine or building an addition on the house these days. Used to be a cold beer and nights sleep was all it took to recover from hard physical work, these days it seems I really pay to play.

Dang that was long. But I do feel that what takes place on this site matters, letting folks know that their efforts are appreciated, especially putting up with ignorant questions I may have asked.

[Boaz]

I just joined a few days ago and have already asked 3 questions .This thread makes me understand that I should read more and ask less , makes sense . LOL , I'm 61 years old and have threatened to reload for years , had a small collection of damascas doublebarrels in the 80's and hand loaded shotshells due to the problems finding BP loads . I'll try to ask less and just pay attention ! Thanks for the heads up !

[Jailer]

I have found it very difficult to search out stuff on this sight. I have read and reread stickies and probably have read over half of them. I am not sure on that, they grow pretty fast.
Without a doubt this is my favorite site on the whole internet. There is so much about several of my favorite topics. But fellers we suffer from the problems of success. If a gun person doesn't come here there is a vast hole in his background. Even we who have been here for years learn new stuff here. If you want to ignore a noob fine, but I think this sticky is great but overly critical. A lot of us old farts make blunders. I learned that since I just plink I don't need a chrony any way.

Do a custom search of the site on google. Go to google's search page Here (https://www.google.com/) (<--click the link) and type in the search critera followed by a single space and this line of text:
site:castboolits.gunloads.com

You'll find much better search results that are more relevant to your needs than using the site's search function.

[Bad Shot]

After 50 years of loading,casting and READING a stack of BOOKS and a lot of mags 8 feet hight,I am Still learning OUTSTANDING Post!

[Eddie2002]

I started reloading in the 70's and have read manuals, asked questions and still know that I can learn more. Wonderful OP and great site for information. Thanks Everybody

[Frag]

I guess this makes a great place for my first post. I'm new to casting boolits and new to this site, but have been reloading for 10 years now. So I guess that puts me somewhere between "Reloader" and "Handloader". I'm to the point where I enjoy reloading more than shooting! Anyway, I'm looking forward to learning from all of you and the wealth of knowledge I've already encountered here. And maybe, just maybe, my experience can help someone else.

[Wag]

Great post, Recluse.

I've been teaching people to ride motorcycles for many years now and most of what you said applies there as well. People simply don't want to listen and they go buy the biggest, baddest bike they can find and they get hurt or killed shortly after.

Nothing to add beyond that but I'm glad this forum is here. When I started hand loading many years ago, there was nothing like this. Just a couple of manuals (which were plenty good) and some great care in the process.

--Wag--

[DGNY]

This is a great site, to which I have come many times over the past few years. I commend the sponsors, moderators and most posters for their knowledge, decorum and good will.

Big Thanks,

Regards,

Dyson

[el34]

I'll answer anybody's question if I am capable. Being 67 and an intense observer I'm also worried sick about the entitlement mentality but I don't think it applies to knowledge seeking. Even if it is for a quick effortless gain it can be opportunity to generate deeper interest and possible passion. When you've successfully triggered that, you're a hero.

All this reminds me of how grateful I need to remember to be for those that answered the myriads of novice questions I've asked since 2nd grade. I remember the occasional "not tellin you, go look it up" which was just a shortlived speedbump in my effort to learn from someone simply willing to enlighten me. Thank goodness the discouragement didn't shut me up.

Recluse had very little hope of rescuing his male student- it's when you first try to help and figure out your student refuses to learn the prerequisites is when you have to either abort the attempt, simply and truthfully explaining why, or try another approach aimed at encouraging an interest in learning the necessaries.

[waksupi]

I'll answer anybody's question if I am capable. Being 67 and an intense observer I'm also worried sick about the entitlement mentality but I don't think it applies to knowledge seeking. Even if it is for a quick effortless gain it can be opportunity to generate deeper interest and possible passion. When you've successfully triggered that, you're a hero.

All this reminds me of how grateful I need to remember to be for those that answered the myriads of novice questions I've asked since 2nd grade. I remember the occasional "not tellin you, go look it up" which was just a shortlived speedbump in my effort to learn from someone simply willing to enlighten me. Thank goodness the discouragement didn't shut me up.

Recluse had very little hope of rescuing his male student- it's when you first try to help and figure out your student refuses to learn the prerequisites is when you have to either abort the attempt, simply and truthfully explaining why, or try another approach aimed at encouraging an interest in learning the necessaries.

I also had the "go look it up" put to me many times. And I did. I usually found when I looked something up, it led me on learning further on related, and even unrelated topics. Much like doing a Google search for something on particular, and finding myself on an advanced physics page, or somewhere else TOTALLY unrelated to the original question.

[popper]

+1 Waksupi. Show them the page and they will ask you to turn it, show them the resource and they will learn or do something else.

[el34]

I usually found when I looked something up, it led me on learning further on related, and even unrelated topics.

I had the exact same experience. When I was a kid my parents got me the World Book encyclopedia set and most evenings I'd randomly pick one, open it, and always quickly find something that interested me. Nobody had to tell me to go look it up if I was near my books. But in the presence of someone smarter than me I'd ask as many questions as that person's patience would bear, which varied greatly.

I promote any attempt to help anyone that has at least a casual curiosity, a small spark can be fanned into flames. If that works suggestions for where to go to find more info can then follow.

I'll never defend laziness, that's a different situation.

[olafhardt]

I will defend laziness. When I was a sophmore chemical engineering student, the head of the department told the introductory class that the Germans had done a study on what kind of person made the best staff officer. The result was a highly intelligent very lazy person. He said that also applied to lots of engineers. It seems that there is often a correlation between the easier way and the better way of doing things. Besides if noobs did not ask stuff we would lose so many opportunities to tell people how smart we are. There are a lot of smart people on here, a few smart alecs and an occasional smart ---.

[blackthorn]

My brother in law used to run a good sized chemical warehouse. He told me that if you want to find the quickest, easiest way to get a dirty job done, give it to the laziest guy on the crew, he/she will find the quickest way.

[el34]

My brother in law used to run a good sized chemical warehouse. He told me that if you want to find the quickest, easiest way to get a dirty job done, give it to the laziest guy on the crew, he/she will find the quickest way.

So were those jobs done well?

[blackthorn]

Well I can't say for sure, but knowing him I doubt he would have accepted shoddy work.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Did not know we had such a highly structured hierarchy. There is, of course, one higher level you have not considered, membership in the CBA. They show up in public at cast bullet shoots and compete*. I think everyone should take their target machine and shoot a CBA match at least once. It is a very humbling experience.

Rich

* competitor; from the Latin word competitore, which means to witness.

[TXGunNut]

I wonder sometimes if the "information age" does a disservice to newbies exploring disciplines like casting and reloading. There is little if any instant gratification in casting and only a little more in reloading. Learning to cast and reload is a slow and gradual process and there are no instant experts, in most cases learning involves many hours at the reloading bench and the shooting bench.
I blame it on microwaves and McDonalds. A baby's bottle is ready in seconds in a microwave, a Happy Meal is available before Mom or Dad can dig out the cash. What are our young people learning from this? They're NOT learning patience.

[Mechanicalmayham]

Reading this thread I realize it has taken me some time but I am here now. I am 37 and have been reloading for about 4 years. Kind of taught myself at the beginning but found many people I never knew who were into it so things progressed quickly. I used to work part time at a shop with machineguns during the late 90's. I personally had pallets of 9mm, 45acp, ,223/556, and 7.62s whatever. I never needed to reload, cast or the like, though there was certainly an interest to it. Now those days are gone, ammo and supplies are in short supply and I find I am looking into a much bigger world of self gratifying skills and have no need for pallets of ammo to throw away. We would burn up $5K of ammo, our cost, market was about $5-8/bx for 9mm. We never collected brass, lead or any of that. Wasteful I know, but we had tons of it.
Well I know have built 4 rifles, loaded several hundred 30-06 to go shoot long range and successfully completed the requirements and shot out to 1200yards. I hunt with my home loads and now I am into making my own boolits. I think for me it was a slow progression to this point with lots of switchbacks. I would have liked it to be faster but would not give up the past experiences for the world. I love this hobby, lifestyle, attitude and everything that goes with it. I think as a whole, people tend to miss out on taking pride of there creations and skills to get them to that point. Maybe it has to do with availability or convenience of not having to think about it, but most people think I am going to blow myself up when they find out I roll my own. I pity those people for missing out while at the same time appreciate that same minded people have formed groups like this. Again, I would not trade these experiences for the world. You guys are awesome and I am privileged to stand, electronically as it is, beside you all.
Thanks!

[jmort]

"I used to work part time at a shop with machineguns during the late 90's. I personally had pallets of 9mm, 45acp, ,223/556, and 7.62s whatever."

Sounds like too much fun. That must have been cool. Some people are able to light cigars with 100 dollar bills and then reality sets in and, I agree, there is satisfaction in the whole process, gathering lead/alloy, smelting, casting, reloading. I like it all. I like it simple. Will never own a 1050, not because I don't acknowledge it as something great, but because I'm perfectly happy using an hand loader or even a single stage press. I'm in no hurry. Hand prime, batch load, use dippers and simple tools. Not for everyone, but neither is black powder, flintlocks and single shots. It's all good and not everyone needs to aspire to be a virtuoso. But it sure do help to spend days/months/years studying all of it. I don't think we have to pity those who don't get it and want to buy ammunition ready to go. They have time to do other things they deem important and like.

[armexman]

May God allow all of us to keep on sharing this info!
I have been casting since 1989, and have learned so much from this site and it's predecessors; that coming back to this site after any vacation period has me learning new things from recent and ancient members.
Keep on sharing and teaching.

[cbrick]

coming back to this site after any vacation period has me learning new things from recent and ancient members.

Now I'll admit that I'm no spring chicken anymore but dang . . . Ancient? :roll:

Rick

[jmort]

Based on your "Join Date" you are about done for.

[SlippShodd]

JMort, that was funny.
JD, good post, as usual.
The cynic in me fears that you are preaching to the choir, because the instant gratification types you're addressing will see that it was too long to bother reading and skip it. And you didn't include your favorite load data.
I had to open a window and go look at my first couple of posts to see what it was exactly that inspired me to join here after years of lurking. I remember now: it was so I could get at the link to download "From Ingot To Target." For several years I had Google searched my quandaries, inevitably leading back here and I always found the answers I needed, without ever asking a question here. My post count still isn't very high considering time-in-type, and would be considerably smaller if I didn't spend so much time vying for class clown in the Humor & Off-Topic section. The small post count comes from the "2 ears/1 mouth" adage I learned at an early age. 40+ years of shooting, 30+ years of handloading and casting and I'm still more a student.
I think it's significant that I originally came here to acquire another manual to read. That's more how I've learned nearly every skill I've ever developed. The fact that instead of having to go to the bookstore or library, I have the biggest library available to me right here on my desktop is not lost on me, nor does it change the way I do things. I suppose that makes me an oxymoron; my instant gratification takes time.
It's not that I am incapable of asking stupid questions. Run, Gear and BTroj (to name but the most recent Three) have all had to roll their eyes and yet patiently kickstart me when I couldn't wrap my head around something. The knowledge base here is massive. Another duality: It takes all of us to be this self-sufficient.
When I do offer up advice, I try to temper it to being my own experience, try not to simply parrot something I read, try to be supremely confident that I'm correct within those guidelines. First thing: Do no harm. Second thing: Always have a punchline.
The biggest problem for me is getting lost in all the knowledge. I come looking for something specific and pretty soon I've got 3 windows open from taking off on various tangents that suddenly intrigued me. I don't know how I actually ever get anything done...

mike

[btroj]

Now I'll admit that I'm no spring chicken anymore but dang . . . Ancient? :roll:

Rick

Yep. Ancient. I saw a photo of you with King Tut........

[jbaldwin]

Recluse,
What a great thread. As a thirty year veteran of teaching English and Science in public schools, I'd like to echo the statements others have made when I say BRAVO, excellent job! Your point is well made with thoughtful and solid writing. I'm well familiar with the amount of work it takes to make a well reasoned argument. Thank you for your effort. Your points are well taken by this “lurker”, and I hope to continue learning from what is available here.

[armexman]

Kind sirs, apologies for calling you all ancient.
By ancient, I refer to those of us/you that have been in all the prior iterations of "Cast Boolts".
Shoot I even thought back then that the "Kernel" was a genius!!! Buckshot had no grey hairs back then too.

[mold maker]

Quote; Maybe it has to do with availability or convenience of not having to think about it, but most people think I am going to blow myself up when they find out I roll my own. ; Quote


If you think unknowing folks roll their eyes when you talk about reloading and casting, wait till you tell them you make your own black powder.

[badgeredd]

If you think unknowing folks roll their eyes when you talk about reloading and casting, wait till you tell them you make your own black powder.

Doesn't making your own black powder fall into the same category as "You're gonna shoot your eye out"?

Edd

[gray wolf]

If anyone doubts why we need this thread and why this forum is so great.
just go over to http://rugerforum.net/index.php?pageid=active_topics
And you will see some of the most pitiful, Q&A on the net.
Absolutely NO idea of what's going on, I mean none.
They are beyond help, and I love to help when I can.

[462]

There was a time when I was a member of that Ruger forum, and offered help to those asking for information and/or seeking advise. Invariably, a particular egotistical moderator would butt in and poo-poo all those who offered advice and experiences which he disagreed with or differed from his. The forum evolved into a one-man show. He was idolized by his blinded and faithful followers. I pulled up stakes before he had the pleasure to "discharge" me.

[gray wolf]

100% correct ^ Sad thing is we may have to mingle with those people and that is one scary thought.
I don't even like to be in the same room with that sort,
that sort gives our sort a bad name.

[462]

Sam, let's hope that they had the foresight to see the worthlessness of such a forum, and have come here with a positive attitude and sincere desire to learn.

[Elkins45]

I credit this site with reigniting my interest in casting. I stumbled across it from a link on another forum (The High Road or The Firing Line, don't remember which) and was amazed at all the fantastic info. I hadn't cast in probably 8 years, and that was just to make some minnies for my uncle and make a few 1oz egg sinkers. A year after joining here I owned a lubrisizer for the first time in my life, my mold collection had probably tripled, and I was shooting cast in centerfire rifles for accuracy instead of just pouring pure lead for ML hunting.

Now I'm a lube alchemist and own two .358 Win and a 35 Whelen rifles. None of that stuff would have happened without this site....so I thank you, but my wallet probably doesn't.

[41mag]

I'll admit to being spanking new to the casting scene. I have however gone through many stages of loading my own since the early days when I sat on my pop's knee and sized cases, and set bullets on top of them after we measured out the powder.

I'm entering my 40th+ years of loading my own now, and I can tell you that I see many things that come up that still make me wonder why. I think that society has become inherently fixed upon if you need it simply Google it. Whats worst is youtube. While I fully admit there are quality answers to most any question needing an answer, there are just as many or more out there which leave a TON of needed info out.

I initially came here as a result of my working with surplus powders. Then the wheels slowly started to turn in the direction of casting my own bullets. I researched the bajeebers out of it as I usually do when I get started on something. Thing is, it is REAL easy to get information overload. As was mentioned somewhere up above, just taking lube as an example, which one works, for what, in which circumstance is a handfull in of itself.

When I was ready, or so I thought, I picked the brains of a few here on what they thought of my process, the alloy and to what end the lube. I am highly thankful that these members were kind enough with their time, to answer a few rookie questions and point me in the right direction.

Nowadays I still troll through hours worth of post gleaning to learn the finer points of fit and function. I also admit that just because you type in 452-285, or Speed Green, that what pops up in the search function leaves a LOT to be desired. I know that in there somewhere is what I am looking for but finding it in the multitude of post or topics is sometimes a bit daunting. I think that some of the newer folks find this as well. Granted there are nine ways of Sunday to input what your looking for, and maybe that is half of my problem.

All of this said however, no matter how you slice it, this site is heads and shoulders beyond what one will ever find in written material on the subject of casting. It is an indispensable source of information, ideas, and a collection of great minds and experiences that cannot be found anywhere else.

That my friends is saying a lot.

Thank you one and all for being here, for the time you take to put up the information, discuss the intimate details of what makes things tic, and making things so understandable.

[nodda duma]

So I don't think I learned to cast the right way..


A few years ago, a coworker gave me his uncle's old 30mm ammo can full of casting gear..a can which hadn't been opened since the 50s.

So I pretty much learned to cast on my own using that gear and the instructions and a few hand written notes that came with the equipment. Looking back at my first post here I guess I had come across the site and asked a question, but never came back lol. So after a few false starts I got to where I could make quarter-sized groups at 100 yds with my Krag and the 311299s that I learned to cast.

I didn't really visit this site much since I was doing well enough on my own.

I did buy a Lee melting pot, though I didn't like the temperature controller on the pot. So having an engineering background I knew about PID controllers and bought a kit off eBay. I set it up and was happy with the better bullet consistency (less toss-backs)

And *then* I came back across this site and found the PID Controller thread, with a better location for the thermocouple. Now I've started reading more and more, finding good info explaining the "why it works" of the practices I've figured out. Also picked up a method to measure lead hardness..one aspect I hadn't figured out but had bugged me.

So I kind of gained the experience and now I'm coming up to speed on the education. It's funny because that's how my optical engineering and optical design career worked out. I learned optics on the job and eventually went back to school for the education.

I figure that's the wrong way to go about learning something...well according to what all the "experts" say. I hear all the time get the education and then get experience. But I guess I ignored that advice in life lol. Works for me tho.

Oh and I taught myself reloading too. Having an engineering brain helps a person to figure things out I guess.

[larrupin]

I joined here about 2 1/2 years ago and just made my first post recently, to order lead to start casting with! :) I have read a ton here and as others have mentioned it is like drinking from a firehose. I have been toying with the idea of casting but what really pushed me to take the plunge was getting more into rifle shooting. I had pretty good sources of local casters on handgun bullets, but not when it comes to rifle bullets.
The last few weeks I have spent untold hours reading and learning the basics to give it a whirl. I bought a pot today, have a couple of molds and ordered some lead and am excited to give it a try in the next few days.

I just want to say a big THANK YOU to all of you that supply so much knowledge and information on this forum!

This is the most informative (and by that I mean real factual, backed up information) forum I have ever had the pleasure of spending a great deal of time on.

Well done,

larrupin

[Pitchnit]

I'm relatively new to loading and casting only a couple of years. I have a few posts but not alot. You guys have been fantastic helping me learn by either answering a question or from reading you posts. An old boss asked me once why I didn't talk alot and I told them I cant learn anything by talking. Same thing here I read alot. I surely wish I could meet some of you guys sometime. Thanks again for the help. Best regards-Pitchnit

[Fetzner808]

I've been a lurker for a short time here and must say from all the reading and looking around I've seen its one of the best forums I've ever come across. There is also SO SO much info, it is absolutely overwhelming. Only recently shot a bunch of cast boolits (purchased) and am finally low enough on stash store bought j-words and boolits (also fed up with unavailability!) that it's time to dive into casting and swaging.

only really started reloading about a year ago due to an oddball caliber. But have always thought swaging was about the coolest thing ever. Also always wanted to cast but had no idea until I came across this forum it was even feasible for anything but slow pistol calibers.

Thanks to all you contributors! Excited to get into this!

[geargnasher]

So I don't think I learned to cast the right way..


A few years ago, a coworker gave me his uncle's old 30mm ammo can full of casting gear..a can which hadn't been opened since the 50s.

So I pretty much learned to cast on my own using that gear and the instructions and a few hand written notes that came with the equipment. Looking back at my first post here I guess I had come across the site and asked a question, but never came back lol. So after a few false starts I got to where I could make quarter-sized groups at 100 yds with my Krag and the 311299s that I learned to cast.

I didn't really visit this site much since I was doing well enough on my own.

I did buy a Lee melting pot, though I didn't like the temperature controller on the pot. So having an engineering background I knew about PID controllers and bought a kit off eBay. I set it up and was happy with the better bullet consistency (less toss-backs)

And *then* I came back across this site and found the PID Controller thread, with a better location for the thermocouple. Now I've started reading more and more, finding good info explaining the "why it works" of the practices I've figured out. Also picked up a method to measure lead hardness..one aspect I hadn't figured out but had bugged me.

So I kind of gained the experience and now I'm coming up to speed on the education. It's funny because that's how my optical engineering and optical design career worked out. I learned optics on the job and eventually went back to school for the education.

I figure that's the wrong way to go about learning something...well according to what all the "experts" say. I hear all the time get the education and then get experience. But I guess I ignored that advice in life lol. Works for me tho.

Oh and I taught myself reloading too. Having an engineering brain helps a person to figure things out I guess.

One needs a foundation, or at least a frame of reference, before any significant understanding of minutia can occur. A person really starts understanding how to make, load, and shoot cast boolits well after they have begun diagnosing problems with their initial attempts.

Gear

[Love Life]

Best load for 38 special please?

[btroj]

Best load for 38 special please?

Like I'm telling you

[Love Life]

Sheesh. It took like 7 hours for somebody to not answer my question.

[btroj]

Sheesh. It took like 7 hours for somebody to not answer my question.

I had to research the data I wasn't giving you. Nothing worse than having someone not give you poetically harmful data.

[freebullet]

[QUOTE=Love Life;2681292]Best load for 38 special please?[/QUO

42 grains of varget.

[Love Life]

[QUOTE=Love Life;2681292]Best load for 38 special please?[/QUO

42 grains of varget.

Funny that you say that. I am currently on the prowl for a cheapish large frame 357 revolver. I want to stuff cases full of slow rifle powders, tie a long string to the trigger, pull the string, and see what happens.

[jonp]

[QUOTE=freebullet;2682691]

Funny that you say that. I am currently on the prowl for a cheapish large frame 357 revolver. I want to stuff cases full of slow rifle powders, tie a long string to the trigger, pull the string, and see what happens.

PM me. I have some extra 50BMG that will work for your experiment [smilie=1:

[Love Life]

I have always wondered what would happen. Not having pressure testing equipment or anything like that, my only choice is to load them and shoot them. I will lay an old kevlar Flak Jacket over the gun when it is fired. Who know's? Maybe the gun will go nuclear. Maybe the rd will fire with little issue. Maybe I'll get squibs, but really. Who knows?

[Aunegl]

I used to know a "reloader" whose sole purpose was to find that perfect powder. A powder where all he had to do was dip a .223 case in a bowl without measuring, press in a bullet and shoot it of his AR for accuracy. I never went to the range with him to see if he was successful or not.

[Love Life]

Sometimes you just have to willing to blow something up in order to get the answers to your questions.

[freebullet]

Please post video. I wanna c.

[Outer Rondacker]

I have a friend who loads .223 He has been reloading since around 9/2013. So he knows everthing. He fills a .223 case full with varget and drops in a bullet. No lie. He thinks he is doing a stroke of business. I mean it there is no weight or scoop or anything just a funnel.
One other thing he does is load two to three different cals and powders then wipe the table clean and load the last shell with the powder from the table. Needless to say I will not shoot anything of his.

[cbrick]

Needless to say I will not shoot anything of his.

Shoot any of his indeed! I wouldn't even want to be at the same range with someone like that.

Rick

[Outer Rondacker]

You are not kidding Rick. All he cares about is faster faster. Cant hit the same hole twice but its screaming. He could not understand why his 357 cases kept getting stuck in his gun after he shoots them. LOL
I do have to say that is one of the most perfect bullets I have ever set my eyes on in your profile pic.

[Radarsonwheels]

Um actually these numbers are all from memory but I load varget for .223. I think I shoot 27 grains under 55g barnes or sierra jacketed bullets. I worked up to that in my rock river bull barrel AR. I often get 1.5" groups of 10 or 20 rounds at 200 yards, so my rifle likes the load.

I originally worked up the load using only RP cases. The weighed powder came up to the bottom of the neck. After I was comfortable with the load I started experimenting with more bulk loading on a progressive press. Everything went great. Then I branched out into using Lake City, which has less case capacity. The identical load in a LC case is full to the brim so I worked it back up from minus 10%.

Guess which load kicks butt in the LC cases? The same 27 grains. It gets slightly compressed but the cartridges don't grow in storage and show no pressure signs.

So at least in my rifle using the case for a dipper in varget is not too far off, depending on the headstamp. Of course I arrived at that conclusion carefully and with cross referenced manuals.

BTW I'm not in a hurry to load varget in any of my magnum handguns but I'd imagine it'd be dirty and spray a handful of smoking jimmies out of the muzzle before anything blew up. I don't imagine there'd be enough time to burn it all up or accelerate the bullet well. Have fun trying it with YOUR gun haha!!

[wrongway]

I have read your article and found it very interesting and true for me I learn more and keep in my head longer by doing it maybe slow at first but it'd be safe.
I'm 69 and I 'm still learning things in life if a person can't learn one different in a day somethings wrong.
I'm new to this site "forum" and found many very nice people here ready to help me out by sending me brass or bullets and I appreciate that I in turn will do the same when I am able. Please keep up the good work and there are nice people left in this world.

[Green Monster]

Great post. This is exactly why i started loading. First I watched my dad doing it not touching anything just watching. Then started prepping/cleaning. Then setting up a single stage press. Then completing a round. This was all from factory made components. Which was when i was a teen. It taught me to learn what i was doing and looking at before running in half witted and *** backwards. I see alotta guys going to youtube and copyin what they see. Not learning snd understanding what they are looking at. Im new to the site and new to casting and am impressed by the wealth of info compiled here. I catch myself jus aimlessly poking around the site everyday searching. Just want to say thanks to the more experienced guys who are willing to share a bit of their experience

[Algaeeater]

I am new to the Castboolits family. However, I have been melting lead for fishing gear since I was 15 years old and re-loading for about 50 years or so. I have been involved with casting boolits for about 2 years, now. I started with 12 ga. slugs, went to 0.69 round ball for the 12 ga. and now am working with casting for my 30/30. I have spent many hours reading your posts and am delighted when they wake up this old grey matter between my ears and cause me to learn something. I have found that a post may simply go away if not replied to over a certain amount of time. I would like to say that it would be a shame if this one did so. Thanks for the post..... helps me to know that I am dealing with a good group of fellas.

[Love Life]

Have fun trying it with YOUR gun haha!!

That was the plan...

[freebullet]

Wish I had a Rossi or sumpin to donate fer yer test. My only stipulation would be the gun must explode before testing could be considered complete.

[TXGunNut]

Wish I had a Rossi or sumpin to donate fer yer test. My only stipulation would be the gun must explode before testing could be considered complete.

Will be a very long test if using Varget.

[Love Life]

It should be interesting I have been perusing Gunbroker for a beater GP100 or Ruger Blackhawk to start with. I have a leftover Kevlar flak jacket to wrap over the gun. I can remove the stocks and clamp the frame directly with something. I do need to send my chronograph off to get fixed.

Seriously, nobody has ever thought "I wonder if a rifle powder will get a bullet out the bore, will it do it safely, and at what speed?" Unburned powder is not a concern because...well...whaddya do?

Hopefully this will open up some avenues for those great TSHTF threads or allow people to keep plinking. I just wish I had pressure testing equipment.

[freebullet]

Please don't blow up a good usable ruger. A Rossi or Taurus wouldn't be a loss to America's usable guns.

I'm not sure a small pistol primer would touch off a full case of varget, it'd be fun to observe from distance though. Maybe use a small rifle primer for good measure. We could call it love life's 38 super duper or lls38sd for short.

If all else fails by the end of the test a case full of red dot, black, or h110 may finish the job, I'm certain with your experience you wouldn't have any trouble exploding it.

[TXGunNut]

KIDS!!!! DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!!!!!LL IS A PROFESSIONAL AND KNOWS HOW TO BLOW STUFF UP SAFELY!!!
I think to blow up a modern revolver using Varget powder we'd probably need a bore obstruction.

[MtGun44]

Even with a bore obstruction, I think the cyl gap leak would keep most guns
intact with Varget.

Bill

[olafhardt]

This is advice we are giving noobs? They may think we have some crazy old farts on this site. I plead guilty.

[jonp]

I am a professional using the latest in advanced safety techniques, dont try this at home!

The barrel obstruction test was done with a hi point not long ago and the video is on youtube. It is quite astounding what that "cheap and ugly" gun could withstand like having a bolt pounded into the barrel

[Love Life]

The purpose is not to intentionally blow the gun up. The purpose is to see what powders will do what in the gun. I'll start on the slow end of the burn chart and move down as long as I can get powders. I just want to see what will get the bullet down the barrel and to the target. If it blows up, then it blows up. However; what if something is learned. What if new avenues are opened up?

We shall see.

To all the new reloaders: For the love of all that is holy DO NOT LOAD YOUR PISTOL RDS WITH SLOW RIFLE POWDERS. I AM EXPERIMENTING AND USING THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD. I WILL HAVE A BULLET PROOF VEST WRAPPED OVER THE GUN AND PULLING THE TRIGGER WITH A LONG STRING!!

IF YOU REFUSED TO BUY A MANUAL, CAME ACROSS THIS PORTION OF THE THREAD, WERE TOO LAZY TO READ THE WHOLE THREAD, AND BLOW UP YOUR GUN THEN THAT IS ON YOU.

[dverna]

LL

One thing to bear in mind is that you will be working with erratic loads. One load could fire and the next blow up the gun.

I certainly would never post any data as some idiot will try it without the controls you will have in place to do it safely.

Frankly, for SHTF, someone can buy two jugs of Promo for less than $200 and have a pretty useable powder for pistol loads, shotgun loads and light rifle loads that has been proven to be safe in those applications for decades. You can bet I will not be wasting Varget or any rifle powder to load pistol rounds.

Blowing up even a beater Ruger seems like such a waste. LOL

Don Verna

[Love Life]

You bring up good points, Don. If I can get a gun for the right price then I'll begin the experiment. However; I'll keep all the data and results under lock and key. I am always hesitant to post ANY load data or development, even manual approved data, because there is always somebody who will screw it up and then blame everything but themselves.

[waksupi]

I am pretty sure what you will find trying slow rifle powders in handguns, as I also had to try that out some years ago. Keep everyone informed of your tests. You will probably laugh a little, cuss a little, but not damage any of your guns.

[cbrick]

Rifle powders in handguns, I used 4198 in the 454 and 1680 in the 357 revolvers. Worked rather well and I didn't blow anything up, in fact the FA 454 was quite accurate at 200 meters at heavy 44 mag velocity with 240 gr bullets. The 357 worked well but came up about 70 fps slower than I was looking for.

Rick

[blackthorn]

Can anyone tell me what the current discussion has to do with the OP???

[Love Life]

Absolutely nothing. The OP was succinct and to the point. It required no further deep thinking or add ons. It is a stand alone thought. The rest of the thread is just thread drift and shenanigans. If shenanigans are not wanted then the thread should be locked or all non-pertinent posts (every post except for the OP) should be deleted.

[TXGunNut]

Yes, epic thread drift but when the original topic has run it's course things happen. And no, we're not going to tell someone how to blow up a gun on a public forum.

[Pb2au]

LL,
Did Btroj ever give you the load you were looking for your 38 special, or is he still being stingy with the info?

[btroj]

LL,
Did Btroj ever give you the load you were looking for your 38 special, or is he still being stingy with the info?

What load? I would share data with LL, he is a stand up guy.

[Love Life]

I'm looking for a load using retumbo in the 38 special while shooting a gas check designed bullet without a gas check. I can do that, right?

[btroj]

It might shorten the life of your gun.......

[Love Life]

The retumbo or the lack of gas check?

[btroj]

Yes?

I think Retumbo is a bit fast for 38 special. Try some WC860 for best velocity. And no check needed as long as the bullet is cast harder than woodpecker lips.

I suggest you search YouTube for loading and casting techniques to ensure you do this up right......

[Love Life]

YouTube is the only place I go for reloading tips and data. No need for manuals here!!!

[geargnasher]

Meh, the guys on utoob are ok, but if I want real expert tips I get them from a guy named "Cooter" down at the local gun/pawn shop. He gave me the super-secret FBI .38 Special load one time.

Gear

[btroj]

Bet that load wasn't watered down by all them lawyers at the powder company.

[Love Life]

Bet that load wasn't watered down by all them lawyers at the powder company.

I knew it!!! They make the manuals water down data so less powder is used. This allows the government to buy more powder to keep out of the hands of individuals and store at Doe Run...along with all the 22lr and billions of rds of 40S&W ammo...which allows them to force gun owners to use hand loads in self defense firearms...which we all know is a big no-no...unless you are using hard cast bullets with a bhn of 44.

Whew!!

[btroj]

I bet the NSA hacks the powder company computers and alters the data to make the loads less lethal.

Hey, did you hear the George Soros bought Marlin and Remington? Bet he does to them what he did to Doe run.

[str8shot426]

If I keep reading this thread, I am going to have to get my waders out.

[Silver Hand]

Thanks Recluse,
I learned things about myself I never considered.
Silver Hand

[psychicrhino]

Thanks for the reminder Recluse.

[Rufus28]

Maybe some of you can help me with following problem. What is this blue purple substance on top of the lead?http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/15/runa3y7a.jpg I am using WW Lead. Bullets looks good thouhttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/15/a4a4ypap.jpg

[Pb2au]

I bet the NSA hacks the powder company computers and alters the data to make the loads less lethal.

Hey, did you hear the George Soros bought Marlin and Remington? Bet he does to them what he did to Doe run.

All of the real load data is kept at Doe Run.........The rest of us poor saps are left with "The Youtube guide to Reloading, casting, and beginners guide to basket weaving and bongo playing".
That and the rest of the reloaders out there are going to the LGS, Walmart and Gander mountain, and buying all of the good reloading data and hoarding it. You would think that someone would at least leave some of the good reload data on the shelves for others.. Greedy hoarders.....

[9.3X62AL]

The blue and gold colorations seen on the melt are oxides that appear for me every time I melt unalloyed lead. They disappear upon fluxing, but return if the melt remains exposed to air.

I was going to mention that the colors were from chupacabra blood found in wheelweights made in Mexico, but this is a serious site and we have no time for such foolishness. SERIOUS. ALWAYS.

[Marlin Junky]

The blue and gold colorations seen on the melt are oxides that appear for me every time I melt unalloyed lead. They disappear upon fluxing, but return if the melt remains exposed to air.

I wish a professional metallurgist would chime in on this one... I don't think they're oxides... I think they're simply the normal color phase of shinny metal in the 400-600F range.

1) I can't find a Pb oxide that is blue or gold.

2) When I leave my pot to finish heating to about 650F the color goes away.

3) If the oxides are colored in this manner, why isn't the lumpy stuff I shove out of the way long after I begin my dipper casting session also pretty colors?

MJ

[9.3X62AL]

Whatever the colorations are, they haven't created casting issues for me. I was relating what my mentor said about the phenomenon. Sorry I said anything, now--as usual.

[btroj]

MJ, who said they are lead oxides? Might be tin or antimony. As for the lumpy stuff, it is different oxides.

I am to with Al, they are oxides that for on the surface of the hot melt.

I fnd the colors are far more pronounced on alloys that are closer to pure lead. Add more tin or antimony and the colors are less pronounced.

Al, never stop posting. Fight thru the noise.

[9.3X62AL]

Al, never stop posting. Fight thru the noise.

That's the proper outlook, BTroj--but the pissant perfectionists and the perpetually indignant that hold sway here have largely killed this site for me.

[Maven]

"...but the pissant perfectionists and the perpetually indignant that hold sway here have largely killed this site for me." ...9.3x62AL

Pretty much says it all for a number of us, Allan.

[Marlin Junky]

Whatever the colorations are, they haven't created casting issues for me. I was relating what my mentor said about the phenomenon. Sorry I said anything, now--as usual.

What makes you think I was looking for an apology? I guess all forums eventually degrade to this point once all the little clicks are formed... it's kinda like high school, I suppose... I dunno, I barely went to high school. :lol:

Unfortunately, this forum has gone from one where ideas were freely exchanged to one where you'd better watch your step... and I'm not talking about the use of profanity. So which one am I? The pissant perfectionist or the perpetually indignant or both? That is very insulting as I have tried to observe objectively and and report factually. I suppose I'm wasting my time here.

Adious,
MJ

[9.3X62AL]

Wherever you eventually land, I hope they have a professional metallurgist on staff or at least on call to answer your questions adequately.

[Marlin Junky]

Wherever you eventually land, I hope they have a professional metallurgist on staff or at least on call to answer your questions adequately.

Now that's funny... congrats on your sarcastic wit :lol: (no sarcasm intended on my part).

Seriously though... this place has gotten very stale.

MJ

P.S. Perhaps a thought... ban me, censor me, I don't give a hoot. Perhaps there are too many here who are taking themselves too seriously? Who's to say who is right and who is wrong, given all the gray area involved in this dopey hobby... and what the heck is wrong with soliciting another opinion when one doesn't agree with what one reads? Man, I'm glad you guys aren't running the country. Y'all would be worse than who is runnin' the show now!

[cbrick]

Man, I'm glad you guys aren't running the country. Y'all would be worse than who is runnin' the show now!

Actually I don't think that's even possible. :(

Rick

[9.3X62AL]

It has gotten stale because of the comprehensive array of disincentives to the making of text/content contributions that have reigned here for the past several years. I have received administrative assurances that work is under way to address those problems, but I've seen little progress to date. The negativity and confrontational tone continues unabated, so I respond in kind. When in Rome.....

It comes down to this--I get real tired of getting told by googins that I don't know what I'm talking about in fields of endeavor where I have 30+ years of ongoing experience. When I respond negatively and in kind to those disparagements, I get fanged by moderators while the googins emerge unscathed. It doesn't take a lot of that drag to instruct me on how to act in the public sections of the site--I shut up. There is no vigor in defending one's self or position here. Ask Bret in NY about that course of conduct, and how it worked out for him.

[Marlin Junky]

...I get real tired of getting told by googins that I don't know what I'm talking about in fields of endeavor where I have 30+ years of ongoing experience.

I don't understand your point... are you referring to my metallurgist comment earlier? Are you a metallurgist? A "googin"? A fisherman who repeated does stupid things while fishing. Or a Fisherman who does not seem to be able to follow simple directions?? I'm really missing the context here... I guess I really stepped in it this time. :lol:


The negativity and confrontational tone continues unabated, so I respond in kind. When in Rome.....

I don't frequent the board that often anymore so I really don't know what to say other than I'm sorry you thought I was just piling on top for a pound of flesh (so to speak). I mean, if you read my post again in an objective light, I think you'll find it's pretty darn benign. Nevertheless, I still don't appreciate the insults and as Rome met its fate... perhaps it's time to let 'er burn.

MJ

[TXGunNut]

Yes. Al is a metallurgist, been working with metals for decades. One of many on this site. I don't know what field his degree is in but when he talks, I listen.

[9.3X62AL]

My point is far more general than your metallurgist callout. No, I'm not a metals expert in any form--but I do have 33 years of casting experience, and my observations made during that time could still potentially have merit, as unprofessional and unlettered as they might be. It doesn't take a metallurgist to make good roundballs around a friggin' campfire.

Am I a mite bristly? Yes I am. I sure as hell didn't arrive here in that condition in 1996 when I started, but in almost 18 years of increasingly hostile and confrontive membership behavior--it has grown into place. So, in the spirit of the OP's thread title on longevity and duration, here is a demo cut of over a decade and a half of membership development and growth.

[cbrick]

It has gotten stale because of the comprehensive array of disincentives to the making of text/content contributions that have reigned here for the past several years.

It comes down to this--I get real tired of getting told by googins that I don't know what I'm talking about in fields of endeavor where I have 30+ years of ongoing experience.

No doubt the forum is sliding backwards, a lot of really talented people have left that had a lot to offer. I don't post much anymore in the way of testing and valid info, seems whenever you do someone will come back with the old wives tale and tell you your an idiot for not believing it or you don't know what your talking about because they have done it that way for years. Many of the old wives tales we had made good progress in eliminating, at least on this forum but a lot of them are back and trying to correct bad info seems pointless anymore.

Rick

[whisler]

Please don't stop correcting bad info! They say a lie repeated often enough will be believed. We can only hope that the same is true of the truth. I know that I really appreciate (and use) the good info relayed here. Keep it up.

[btroj]

Al and Maven, it is time to fight back.

I put up with enough BS in the lube quest. Lots of jabs, not much help. Sure dissuades one from sharing info in an open manner. Most of the work on that endeavor was done via PM to keep the trolls away.

I miss the days when there were potentially rancorous discussions but they were about what someone was actually doing at the time. It was people who were actually testing, observing, and doing things.

Theory only goes so far. I want to see the targets, here how you did it and why.

Man I miss the old days.

[olafhardt]

I do have some technical credentials which I will not elaborate on. I was wondering if the colorful sheen on the top of the melt might be something that separated out of the alloy and floated to the top as a liquid. Once there, it forms a sheen like oil on water.

[freebullet]

Wow this thread took a wrong turn from the humorous drift we had going.

If your not willing to share results why even be a member? I read posts here for a year before I joined. Guess what... A lot of them went off on the same journeys folks are complaining about now. From recent to archived threads a lot of bickering. I was still able to get useful information and I still do and try to help where I can.


I wonder if-
Love life ya try the super secret 38 load I posted for you yet?

[btroj]

I do have some technical credentials which I will not elaborate on. I was wondering if the colorful sheen on the top of the melt might be something that separated out of the alloy and floated to the top as a liquid. Once there, it forms a sheen like oil on water.

My understanding is that alloys don't gravity separate. I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts.

[9.3X62AL]

My understanding is that alloys don't gravity separate. I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts.

So would I. What I was told, regarding Marlin Junky's colors question, was that the blue and gold coloration was a product of surface oxidation of alloy or melt constituents. I have seen it most vividly while melting unalloyed lead at elevated temps (800*-850*) to decrease viscosity thermally during casting sequences. The 'colors' disappear upon fluxing, and return slowly if the melt remains exposed to air during the pouring. The colors have had no negative effect during dipper casting for me. I cast at far lower temps (675*-750*) with lead/tin and lead/tin/antimony alloys, due to those mixes being more fluid at those lower temps. This was instruction from 1981, followed by observation and consistent outcomes since that time. If it is metallurgically-unsound information, I would appreciate being instructed further and more properly.

[btroj]

Yep, Pure lead shows those colors the most. When I see them in a smelt I know I have pretty darn pure lead.

[cbrick]

So would I. What I was told, regarding Marlin Junky's colors question, was that the blue and gold coloration was a product of surface oxidation of alloy or melt constituents. I have seen it most vividly while melting unalloyed lead at elevated temps (800*-850*) to decrease viscosity thermally during casting sequences. The 'colors' disappear upon fluxing, and return slowly if the melt remains exposed to air during the pouring. The colors have had no negative effect during dipper casting for me. I cast at far lower temps (675*-750*) with lead/tin and lead/tin/antimony alloys, due to those mixes being more fluid at those lower temps. This was instruction from 1981, followed by observation and consistent outcomes since that time. If it is metallurgically-unsound information, I would appreciate being instructed further and more properly.

That is correct, oxidation at the surface. Lead alloy will not, cannot gravity separate, you would die of very old age as a bent over white haired boolit caster waiting for that to happen.

Rick

[Recluse]

That's the proper outlook, BTroj--but the pissant perfectionists and the perpetually indignant that hold sway here have largely killed this site for me.




Pretty much says it all for a number of us, Allan.

*Sigh* Sad and true.

We've gone from being a small, cozy little town to a sprawling city with way too many avenues. . . with predictable results.

:coffee:

[Marlin Junky]

*Sigh* Sad and true.

We've gone from being a small, cozy little town to a sprawling city with way too many avenues. . . with predictable results.

:coffee:

Yup...

The site has become a microcosm of the country where bickering is the norm, critical thinking is dismissed and conventional wisdom applauded. I never said anything because I knew it would ruffle feathers (even back then); however, the management is to blame for its recruiting efforts and lazy moderating techniques that followed.

Where's my apology?

MJ

BTW, I'm not discussing this oxidation thing anymore (it's been a gross waste of my time and I'm sorry I inserted input) so y'all just talk among yourselves.

[Rufus28]

Guys i have been casting for a month know and like to thank you all for your advice as the results are showing. Allot of people do not understand how rare this information your are share is. To find books or info on gun smithing and bullet casting is extremely difficult of you are not living in the USA or UK. Here in Africa you rely on the internet to provide. Thanks once again

[olafhardt]

My understanding is that alloys don't gravity separate. I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts.

OK, guys I'll try to explain what I THINK is happening. If you have liquid with a source of heat, you have convection currents bringing liquid up to the top of the pot. You can see this in grease heating up. The hot liquids are exposed to air and can oxidize. These reactions are accelerated by heat. A rule of thumb I heard was the reaction rates double for every 10 degrees Celsius (18 degrees F) you raise the temperature. So, if you raise the temperature to 540 degrees F you have increased the rate of oxidation by 2 raised to the 30th power which is a huge number. If you now raise the temperature to 720 F the rate to 2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2x2 times what it was at 540 F. These oxides are certainly lighter than lead and float on the surface and create sheen like oil on water. When you flux these oxides are reduced to the original metal if they are reducible by the flux. Lead and tin oxides are, calcium and zinc are not. I have no idea that alloys can not separete by gravity when solubility limits are reached. Somebody said that antimony seperation was the cause of frosting. Anyway these are my thoughts on the sheen on the top of my lead pot. I would love to here your thoughts and criticisms of my ideas. If you think I am an idiot you won't be the first nor will you be the first to think I am right smart.

[btroj]

No, I think you are correct that they are oxides. The blue color is found in pure or nearly pure lead only.

[cbrick]

I have no idea that alloys can not separete by gravity when solubility limits are reached.

No, according to the metals industry the components of a lead alloy cannot gravity separate. Not in large industrial vessels and not in your pot.

Rick

[xd45forever]

I agree completely!! A few years a ago I became interested in reloading. Before I bought my first press I already knew the basics and what I wanted for equipment by researching on sights just like this. I didn't have to post much because the answers were right there now I'm here most of you don't know me but thanks to you I'm casting beautiful boolits for my 45 and eventually for some of my other firearms. Thank you all a thousand times!!!!

[BruceB]

".......... the components of a lead alloy cannot gravity separate. Not in large industrial vessels and not in your pot."

Rick

DAGNABIT!!!!!!!

This quote from Rick should be in a HUGE banner headline, splashed across the top of EVERY PAGE on this site!

"THE COMPONENTS OF A LEAD ALLOY CANNOT GRAVITY-SEPARATE"!

This "gravity-separation" is a MYTH, repeat: a MYTH..... it just doesn't happen.

An alloy is not a "mixture", it's a chemical /atomic creation in which the component elements are bonded together at the molecular level.

[9.3X62AL]

No argument at all with Olaf's text. His observations are completely consistent with my own. I have never seen alloy constituents phase-separate for any reason, and didn't think it likely.

Funny that Bruce comes along now in this context......I had questions at the start of my work using Bruce's soft-point casting method, wondering if the "point metal" and drive band section--composed of differing metals--would simply blend during the the "fusing" phase. This has not occurred for me--some combination of gentle handling and differential specific gravities of the point portion (unalloyed lead) and tri-metal alloy (usually 92/6/2) allows the process to work. Note that I ALWAYS have the point portion of the cavity lower than the drive band section, which is natural for most cavities we use in this hobby.

[olafhardt]

From what wikipedia says white lead oxide melts at 290 C which is 522 F. Above this point lead oxides go through various reactions with themselves and oxygen. The thing to note is they are liquids and float on the lead and because there is not much of the oxides, they spread out in thin layers which can solidify when the lead cools.
As far as alloys never separating by gravity, l don't know. This seems maybe likely if the alloy is a homogenous solution at constant temperature. I have seen fractional rechystalation-dechrystalation used to separate out components of a solid solution. When two phases of a mixture are in contact they often have different percentages of components. It's gonna take alot to convince of that molten metal mixtures are homogenous and cannot settle out.

[cbrick]

If that's the case then you should contact the metals industry. No doubt they will be shocked to learn that they have it all wrong.

Rick

[olafhardt]

I guess I ought to point out that lead oxides DO NOT alloy with lead and that all mixtures of liquid metals ARE NOT alloys. If you wish to define an alloy as a mix of metals that will not separate by gravity when liquid then I agree they won't seperate by gravity. Even non metalic elements can alloy with metals ie: carbon and iron to make steel. All metals do not dissolve in others, think of those wwclips we scoop out of our pots.

[xd45forever]

And this is why my post count is so low,I spend hours and hours reading on this forum soaking in all the experience of the veteran casters here I usually don't ask unless I just plain can't find the info I'm looking for. Thank you all soo very much!!

[bannor]

I'm normally just a progressive reloader/caster/shooter, but I do experiment with hunting and defensive loads for handguns. I've decided that the 223, with the right ammo, does anything that I need a centerfire longarm for. Pistol ammo, however, is very lacking in improvement, almost no progress having been made in 30 years, and the results are way, way less than what should be the case by now. We know that rifle "type" velocities do wondrous things, even with very lw bullets. So it should be obvious that such bullets and such velocities are the way to go for rapidfire controllable loads in ccw pistols. The Big heavy approach has accomplished very little, other than in huge, heavy revolvers that nobody bothers to ccw (other than under a parka, in Alaska). :-) We've had Mach II handgun loads around for decades, and even the .45 Champion of them all, Jeff Cooper, said that a .22 spritzer, 40 grs at 2200 fps, had adequate stopping power, by means of hydrostatic shock, even after piercing soft body armor.

[cbrick]

HAY, how do I gravity separtate lead?

You can do that but it needs additional gravity and has to be done on the surface of Jupiter. As a side benefit you get a lot more lead, your 5 pound ingots now weigh 85 pounds. (20 pound ingots not recommended)

Rick

[smokeywolf]

In the laboratory you subject solutions to Jupiter's gravity by placing them in a centrifuge.

smokeywolf

[Static line]

In the laboratory you subject solutions to Jupiter's gravity by placing them in a centrifuge.

smokeywolf
Good lookin horse.

[Static line]

Recluse,
Thanks,that was a good read.I am very much a new caster myself and you brought up some good points as well.I admit,I jumped right on in and started asking a lot of questions before reading the stickies.It was a good thing though because I enjoyed the thoughtfulness and the kindness of the people answering my questions.I made some pretty nice friends along the way too and that came from asking questions that like you say,the answers to,are in the stickies.That ment more to me then just reading through thousands of words.The knowledge on this forum is so outstanding,it's amazing and exciting to learn this new hobby of mine.My thanks to you Recluse and all who share this great world of casting and making boolits.

[GoodOlBoy]

I am confused as to how you guys think gravity separation is a myth? So you are telling me that when I melt lead alloy the heaviest element (lead) doesn't sit on bottom while the lighter elements (Tin and Antimony) don't float to the top and create a scum that can be pulled off of the lead? If gravity separation is a myth then why would fluxing cause steel WW clips to rise to the surface of the lead? Likewise dirt, copper, bronze, etc? For that matter if gravity separation is a myth then how does a centrifuge work? Heck how does panning for gold work?

The simple truth is that gravity separation is a reality. Heavier elements sink, while lighter elements float. It's part of basic science and the periodic table of elements. Once the bond of ANY two or more elements is broken via heat or other method then gravity pulls the heaviest elements to the bottom, the next heaviest to the middle, and so on and so forth...... Heck I graduated from public school and I know that.

GoodOlBoy

[cbrick]

Panning for gold? The gold and rock/dirt etc are not melted together. It is a myth, cannot gravity separate, what your talking about with scum on top of the melt is oxidation, a completely different thing than gravity separation. Because of the density of lead yes the steel clips will float to the top BUT the steel is not melted and part of the lead alloy.

If you believe that your lead ALLOY will/can gravity separate get ahold of the metals industry, I'm sure they will be fascinated to learn that they have it all wrong. :mrgreen:

Rick

[btroj]

Ok, so ethanol and water have different densities. Why doesn't booze gravity separate?

An alloy, like we are using, is similar to a solution. I can take salt, heavier than water, and dissolve it in water. If no evaporation occurs the salt will never gravity separate out. Wheel weight clips are not dissolved in the lead, they merely float in the lead.

The tin and antimony are like the salt, they are dissolved in the lead.

Go to the city pool. The chemical used to treat the water don't gravity separate out as they are dissolved in the water, as are the various minerals that cause hardness. They kids and pool floats always rise to the surface as they are suspended in the water, or dissolved in the water. The kids and floats are your clips, dirt, and grunge. The chemicals and hardness causing minerals are the tin and antimony.

The tin and antimony scum you see are because they have a far higher affinity for oxygen than lead at the melt point of our alloy. That means they oxidize far faster so the scum tends to have a higher percentage of those elements. We now have a suspension, not a solution as those oxides are far less soluble in molten lead. What fluxing does, of done with a good reducing agent, is reduce those oxides back to metallic tin and antimony which then dissolve back into the lead.

You might want to go back and revisit your high school, they might need to run a refresher course. Then again, this is just what my BS in Chemistry is telling me so I could be wrong......

[GoodOlBoy]

Wait wait wait. Now I am not saying that lead just sitting in an ingot will gravity separate. But when heated to bond separation lighter elements float. Just as oil, water, and vinegar will make a nice salad dressing when shaken up and kept cool. If you heat it and let it sit you get separation. Likewise Lead and Zinc will separate as well, though gravity is only a PART of the equation for the separation.

From "The Metallurgy of Argentiferous Lead, A Practical Treatise on the Smelting of Silver-lead Ores and the Refining of Lead Bullion Including Reports on Various Smelting Establishments ... in Europe and America" – Manuel Eissler circa 1891.

P 287-288
“The charge is now stirred, and the zinc alloy skimmed off in the usual way. As this operation is repeated three times, it is necessary to have two desilverising pots, in order that a continuous working of the apparatus may go on. Upon mixing the lead and zinc two distinct alloys are formed—silver-zinc alloy and lead-zinc alloy. These are separated, not so much in consequence of their different specific gravity, as by the difference of their melting points. The silver-zinc alloy solidifies first in the process of cooling, and afterwards as the temperature falls the lead-zinc alloy crystallises out. “ The formation of the first alloy may be promoted by expos ing a larger surface for cooling, either by gentle stirring by hand or by a current of steam ; in the latter case the silver-zinc crystals are readily detached from the sides of the pot, and brought to the surface in the form of a pasty scum. As the formation of a rich silver alloy and a poor lead alloy require opposite conditions, the former being promoted by a minimum of zinc, the latter by an excess, the following operations can be divided accordingly into the production of a rich zinc-silver alloy and a poor zinc-lead alloy. “ The rich zinc-silver alloy is formed by making use of the alloy produced by the third addition of zinc to the former charge to the new charge of lead, and is effected by placing it at the mouth of the pipe through which the hot lead, free from antimony, is flowing into the pot. The thorough mixing is accomplished by steam, and the first zinc alloy taken off is now rich enough to be set aside. An experiment of this operation, when the lead contained 0'16 per cent. of silver after the first hour’s skimming, proved its reduction to 0'03 in five hours, whilst the zinc alloy contained from 0'74 to 0'94 per cent. “ The formation of the poor zinc-lead alloy is accomplished in a similar manner by the addition of fresh zinc only at the third operation."

So we know from this blurb that gravity doesn't have a much of an effect as melting point. "not so much in consequence" IE he didn't say gravity was of NO consequence.

If this same experiment is done in a micro G environment (Planetary Resources and Deep Space Industries are both experimenting with this as a solution for deep space mining) the crystals form, but don't float to the top. Why not? What is different? Gravity. Without Gravity the crystals don't migrate from inside the molten liquid to the top, or in micro g outside if you will. Instead they stay suspended, but crystallized within the molten mass. Only by adding a specific gravity or kinetic force (no I don't know what force is needed, I'm not THAT well read on the topic) will the crystallized particles make their way to the outside/top/etc of the molten liquid. As I understand it a good binder helps as well with keeping the crystallized state stable until separation can occur.

By the way. On the public school topic. I graduated with an advanced degree, with honors, and as a member of the All-American Academic Society, and at the time had the highest ASVAB score on record in the State of Texas. My record was beaten two years later by myself as I tried a second time to enter the military and they didn't believe my first score. Later that year a 17 year old from San Angelo beat my second score and as far as I know her score still stands as the record til this day. I have a college degree as well, and have been published as a writer. I have half a dozen different dive licenses. Was a Senior Tech Specialist III for the State of Texas for 15+ years. I have written software, designed hardware, and specialized in cross platform compatibility between antiquated systems and modern systems. I also Worked in Law enforcement for multiple years.. Have blacksmithed, gunsmithed, tanned hides, built electronics, done construction, been a licensed electrician, and am a pretty good cook. But I admit I suck at sewing on a button, which is one of the reason I married a seamstress. I have worked in my life as a cook, a stocker, a field hand, a ranch hand, a diver, a pressure vessel destructive test technician, and a few other odds and ends when I was bored.

Just because we are bright doesn't mean we are right, and the ability to regurgitate hand fed data back to a professor and thus gain a piece of paper does not make one the sole source of any given topic.

Edited to ADD: By the way if booze and water don't separate how do you make Apple Jack on a cold night in the northern US?

Thanks, and God Bless.

GoodOlBoy

[btroj]

These are separated, not so much in consequence of their different specific gravity, as by the difference of their melting points.

If your alloy is separating due to melting point issues then turn up the heat! Any bullet caster worth his salt knows that.


Look at the copper alloy threads. Copper added to lead alloys can cause issues with spout freezing unless the heat is turned up.

[btroj]

Edited to ADD: By the way if booze and water don't separate how do you make Apple Jack on a cold night in the northern US?

By allowing the hard cider to freeze partially. Water freezes at a higher temp than an alcohol solution so the first ice to form is largely water. This means removing the first bits of ice removes mostly water giving a higher alcohol content.

This is NOT gravity separation of a solution, it is removing something from the mix be freezing. Totally different.

Gravity separation of a molten, fully liquid, lead alloy at temps we use does not happen.

[cbrick]

Well GoodOlBoy if you wish to believe that a lead alloy will gravity separate by all means please do. For all of your different jobs I didn't see mention of manufacturing magic wands, you should look into that career as one of those devices will be needed for you get a lead alloy to gravity separate. :roll:

Rick

[waksupi]

Edited to ADD: By the way if booze and water don't separate how do you make Apple Jack on a cold night in the northern US?

By allowing the hard cider to freeze partially. Water freezes at a higher temp than an alcohol solution so the first ice to form is largely water. This means removing the first bits of ice removes mostly water giving a higher alcohol content.

This is NOT gravity separation of a solution, it is removing something from the mix be freezing. Totally different.

Gravity separation of a molten, fully liquid, lead alloy at temps we use does not happen.

Isn't that backwards? I thought the alcohol thawed first. Otherwise, why do I pour Heet in my gas tank in the winter?

[Sweetpea]

Ric, you're both right...

The water freezes first, as the temperature is dropping.

The alcohol thaws first, as the temperature is rising.

[GhostHawk]

BTROJ is correct, the freezing tends to push the alcohol and sugars into the center.

2 liter pepsi/coke bottles work great for this, fill them to the shoulder and let them age on your back porch while waiting for cold weather.

Wake up to a -20 morning, grab a strainer, a big bowl and empty what will run out of the 2 liters.

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD stuff that packs a punch!

Be it apple jack or Wild Plum.
I call it "Freeze Brandy"

Lead however won't separate no matter how cold it gets. And I've known a few guys that thought it would gravity separate when melted, but never could prove it.

[9.3X62AL]

yeah but Rick what aout me gravity separating the boolit from the case oooh noo wait ....
ha ha:kidding:

I generally use primer and powder for this activity, myself. And a firearm. But that's just me, and I've been called 'lacking in imagination' from time to time.

[blackthorn]

Ahhh yes---BUT---there have been threads on this forum about zinc contaminated alloy being "saved" by taking the cold metal, and bringing it to liquidus slowly, which is supposed to result in the formation of an "oatmeal" like layer (zinc) forming on top of the melt. This layer is then skimmed from the top of the alloy (allegedly) removing zinc from the melt! True or not?? If it is true and this method works would that not be "gravity" separation?? I do recognize that if the temperature continues to be increased the zinc would reintegrate into the alloy, especially if the melt is fluxed.

[btroj]

No, that is separation based upon melt point. It is actually very similar to the apple jack mentioned earlier. By manipulating temps we can "freeze" out a substance based upon melt point differences.

We are speaking of gravity separation of a fully liquid pot 'o lead.

[GoodOlBoy]

No, cbrick, I have never had a job making magic wands. Being a Christian that would be out of my wheel house. Want to know why some members won't last? Because when they try to have a discussion you always have some joker who wants to throw in repeated BS comments that have nothing to do with the situation. If what you are looking for is magic, I would suggest you go rent a copy of harry potter and let those interested in scientific debate have an adult conversation. Thanks.

Any give element or compound floats because of buoyancy. Buoyancy does not work in zero gravity environments. Why?


For this reason, an object whose density is greater than that of the fluid in which it is submerged tends to sink. If the object is either less dense than the liquid or is shaped appropriately (as in a boat), the force can keep the object afloat. This can occur only in a reference frame which either has a gravitational field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity) or is accelerating due to a force other than gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration) defining a "downward" direction (that is, a non-inertial reference frame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-inertial_reference_frame)). In a situation of fluid statics, the net upward buoyancy force is equal to the magnitude of the weight of fluid displaced by the body.

It is very simple physics. You can say "Oh it's not gravity it's oxidation!" Why does oxidation float? Oxidation is defined as
the interaction between oxygen molecules and other substances. Once oxygen is bound to another molecule the molecule because lighter (assuming it is heavier than oxygen to being with) and begins to float. Why does oxidation float? Because of buoyancy. How does buoyancy work? Gravity. How about "Oh no it just does that once it is fluxed!" Why is that? Because flux either binds to the element and causes buoyancy, OR it causes another element to be formed (such as carbon or oxygen) which binds to the element and again causes buoyancy.

By the way scuba divers are very familiar with gravity, buoyancy, and the effects of micro g or zero g environments. Some time look at a website for divers and look up the topic "How to achieve neutral buoyancy at various atmospheres of depth."

Sorry but it's science not magic.

Believe it, or don't.

GoodOlBoy

[cbrick]

No not BS, you have been told several times already that a lead alloy cannot gravity separate. Not because it's a joke but because it's a fact. You quote an 1897 article but do you suppose that it's possible the metals industry may have learned something since then?

Oxidation only happens on the surface of the melt where the alloy is in contact with oxygen. Scuba divers have nothing whatever in common with molten lead alloys. Nothing.

Read chapter 4 in this link and perhaps you'll see where your confusing two things that are very dissimilar, oxidation and gravity separation. I recommend the whole book but chapter 4 is on fluxing and covers how and why.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf

Rick

[GoodOlBoy]

Now THAT reply was not BS cbrick. But suggesting magic wands?

So because I have been told multiple times, by people I don't know from adam, a thing is a fact I should accept it? No thanks.

Is the world still flat? Does lunchmeat still create maggots? Heck now science cannot agree on what the half life of some radioactive materials are and some believe that carbon dating may be off as much as millions of years.

Here's what I do know from metallurgy we as a society cannot recreate many of the processes used by blacksmiths throughout history to create iron and steel in forms that match what was made even 150 years ago. Sometimes look up the difference in irons made by blacksmiths in colonial America that had a fibrous nature to them when bent to the breaking point, and modern irons which don't. Or look up the ancient African iron men who could retrieve iron from red sand which modern foundries can't do.

So what does that have to do with the conversation? If a person smelting lead in 1891 believed that gravity was only a portion (but still a portion) of the equation does it automatically make that person wrong that their information was 200+ years old? Are we still using lead ore that's older than that book, or has all the newly mined lead ore started following different rules because time passed?

I read through the link you posted (thanks for that by the way saved a copy) and nothing in the link says that oxidation doesn't float because of the effects of gravity. Therefore if oxidation floats, floating is a direct effect of gravity, and we use oxidation to separate alloys we ARE using a form of gravity separation. All we are doing by oxidizing, fluxing, binding, or separating is removing bonds from one atom to another so that the lighter item can float or a heavier item can sink. And yet again nothing can float or sink without ..... gravity.....

Thanks for the conversation.

GoodOlBoy

[btroj]

Wow. The scientific base of the board is sinking fast.
The entire metals industry is so dumb. They keep adding chemicals to slurries of crushed ore to help concentrate the desirable mineral. They should just let gravity do the work.

The ability of a mineral to float depends upon its surface properties. Chemical modification of these properties enables the mineral particles to attach to an air bubble in the flotation cell. The air bubble and mineral particle rise through the pulp to the surface of the froth or foam that is present on the flotation cell. Even though the air bubbles often break at this point, the mineral remains on the surface of the froth. The mineral is physically separated from the remaining pulp material and is removed for further processing.


That is a quote from a website for Chevron Phillips for the floatation chemicals they produce for the ore refining industry. They mention flotation but not gravity. Hmmmmm

Here is what Merriam-Webster says about flotation.

Full Definition of FLOTATION


1
: the act, process, or state of floating
2
: an act or instance of financing (as an issue of stock)
3
: the separation of the particles of a mass of pulverized ore according to their relative capacity for floating on a given liquid; also : any of various similar processes involving the relative capacity of materials for floating
4
: the ability (as of a tire or snowshoes) to stay on the surface of soft ground or snow

No mention of gravity?

How about buoyancy?

Full Definition of BUOYANCY


1
a : the tendency of a body to float or to rise when submerged in a fluid
b : the power of a fluid to exert an upward force on a body placed in it; also : the upward force exerted
2
: the ability to recover quickly from depression or discouragement : resilience
3
: the property of maintaining a satisfactorily high level (as of prices or economic activity)


Based on your understanding of science relating to gravity a boat defies gravity. It should sink, it is made of a material heavier than water.

Wait, Archimedes long ago figured that out. The boat floats because the weight of the water displaced weighs more than the boat itself. That is what determines buoyancy and whether it not it will float. Notice it speaks of weights, not mass? The use of weight signifies that gravitational pull is included as weight is a unit of force, mass is not.

If I fall from a cliff I wasn't gravity separated from the cliff, I fell. I was never mixed into the cliff, I was never alloyed with it. Being that I wasn't part of the cliff I couldn't be separated from it.

[GoodOlBoy]

Now you are arguing displacement vs flotation. I agree boats float because of displacement relative to the weight of the boat in question and the sectional density of the water it is on. IE salt vs fresh water displacement is different, however, most boats will float on both.

You can post definitions from sites if you wish, and I have done it as well. But for a really good discussion on gravity, sinking, and floating? http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=178483

But if you fall from a cliff you are acted upon by gravity are you not?

If a piece breaks off the cliff does it fall, float, or hover? I would assume it falls due to gravity, and that piece WAS a part of the cliff.

By the way the repeated argument of "Then why doesn't industry know to use gravity separation?"
Gravity separation is an industrial method of separating two components, either a suspension, or dry granular mixture where separating the components with gravity is sufficiently practical: i.e. the components of the mixture have different specific weight. All of the gravitational methods are common in the sense that they all use gravity as the dominant force. Gravity separation is used in a wide variety of industries, and can be most simply differentiated by the characteristics of the mixture to be separated - principally that of 'wet' i.e. - a suspension versus 'dry' -a mixture of granular product. Often other methods are applied to make the separation faster and more efficient, such as flocculation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flocculation), coagulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coagulation) and suction. The most notable advantages of the gravitational methods are their cost effectiveness and in some cases excellent reduction. Gravity separation is an attractive unit operation as it generally has low capital and operating costs, uses few of any chemicals that might cause environmental concerns and the recent development of new equipment enhances the range of separations possible.

Seems to me the industry DOES know about it.

GoodOlBoy

[btroj]

Think of it this way. Gravity is a force, no more, no less. As a force it pull on everything in our lives. It gives us weight. It drives many things. We over come it to fly. It causes convection currents due to warmer air having less weight, hence it rises.

The fact that these things may not occur in space is hardly relevant to this discussion. I have no plans to cast bullets on the ISS so what might happen there isn't something I'm concerned about.

We are speaking of how gravity acts on a molten pot of lead. I'm concerned only with the liquid phase, not any solids. The liquid phase will not gravity separate, period. Can I induce chemical or physical changes to the liquid allowing me to separate things out? Absolutely. I can alter the temp or cause oxidation to occur but those are chemical and physical changes that ALLOW gravity to act differently upon some portions of the melt than on others. Gravity alone did not cause the separation, some other physical or chemical process played a larger role which allowed gravity to act differently based on differences in densities of the item precipitated out.

[btroj]

Wow. The scientific base of the board is sinking fast.
The entire metals industry is so dumb. They keep adding chemicals to slurries of crushed ore to help concentrate the desirable mineral. They should just let gravity do the work.

The ability of a mineral to float depends upon its surface properties. Chemical modification of these properties enables the mineral particles to attach to an air bubble in the flotation cell. The air bubble and mineral particle rise through the pulp to the surface of the froth or foam that is present on the flotation cell. Even though the air bubbles often break at this point, the mineral remains on the surface of the froth. The mineral is physically separated from the remaining pulp material and is removed for further processing.


That is a quote from a website for Chevron Phillips for the floatation chemicals they produce for the ore refining industry. They mention flotation but not gravity. Hmmmmm

Here is what Merriam-Webster says about flotation.

Full Definition of FLOTATION


1
: the act, process, or state of floating
2
: an act or instance of financing (as an issue of stock)
3
: the separation of the particles of a mass of pulverized ore according to their relative capacity for floating on a given liquid; also : any of various similar processes involving the relative capacity of materials for floating
4
: the ability (as of a tire or snowshoes) to stay on the surface of soft ground or snow

No mention of gravity?

How about buoyancy?

Full Definition of BUOYANCY


1
a : the tendency of a body to float or to rise when submerged in a fluid
b : the power of a fluid to exert an upward force on a body placed in it; also : the upward force exerted
2
: the ability to recover quickly from depression or discouragement : resilience
3
: the property of maintaining a satisfactorily high level (as of prices or economic activity)


Based on your understanding of science relating to gravity a boat defies gravity. It should sink, it is made of a material heavier than water.

Wait, Archimedes long ago figured that out. The boat floats because the weight of the water displaced weighs more than the boat itself. That is what determines buoyancy and whether it not it will float. Notice it speaks of weights, not mass? The use of weight signifies that gravitational pull is included as weight is a unit of force, mass is not.

If I fall from a cliff I wasn't gravity separated from the cliff, I fell. I was never mixed into the cliff, I was never alloyed with it. Being that I wasn't part of the cliff I couldn't be separated from it.

[GoodOlBoy]

I agree 100%. My sole reason for arguing the point was that there seemed to be some underlying opinion that gravity had nothing to do with separation, when in point of fact it does. While it is not (as you have said, and as I have posted quotes agreeing with you) the MAJOR factor in separation it is A factor. Did gravity cause the separation? No. Could the separation have happened without gravity. Yes. Could the separated material float or sink without gravity? No.

So by saying that you cannot use gravity to separate lead alloy that has been heated and "fluxed" is incorrect because without gravity to cause the material to float or sink you would have a suspension, not a separation. But as a counter you cannot set a block of lead on the counter and watch the alloy separate just from gravity. Which I also stated earlier.

Heck I enjoyed the conversation.

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

Ok I had to go back and reread because I thought posts had suddenly been deleted. It appears to me, I could be wrong, that for some reason the timestamps are not quite right and the lasts few posts seem to be out of order to me now. Otherwise how did I respond to displacement BEFORE btroj mentioned it?

Weird

BTW how did gravity separation become the topic in a thread about how some new member's won't last?

GoodOlBoy

[Sweetpea]

When I'm casting, as long as gravity is keeping the alloy in the pot, that's good enough for me...:coffee::coffee:

[Aunegl]

Wow. The scientific base of the board is sinking fast.
The entire metals industry is so dumb. They keep adding chemicals to slurries of crushed ore to help concentrate the desirable mineral. They should just let gravity do the work.

The ability of a mineral to float depends upon its surface properties. Chemical modification of these properties enables the mineral particles to attach to an air bubble in the flotation cell. The air bubble and mineral particle rise through the pulp to the surface of the froth or foam that is present on the flotation cell. Even though the air bubbles often break at this point, the mineral remains on the surface of the froth. The mineral is physically separated from the remaining pulp material and is removed for further processing.


That is a quote from a website for Chevron Phillips for the floatation chemicals they produce for the ore refining industry. They mention flotation but not gravity. Hmmmmm

Here is what Merriam-Webster says about flotation.

Full Definition of FLOTATION


1
: the act, process, or state of floating
2
: an act or instance of financing (as an issue of stock)
3
: the separation of the particles of a mass of pulverized ore according to their relative capacity for floating on a given liquid; also : any of various similar processes involving the relative capacity of materials for floating
4
: the ability (as of a tire or snowshoes) to stay on the surface of soft ground or snow



Brought back some memories when I worked in the Inspiration Copper mine in Claypool, AZ. The reagents had a distinct smell when the flotation machines were running, in the concentrator building.

[olafhardt]

You often can only dissolve only a small amount of solute in a certain amount of solvent. Spoon sugar into your coffee. After a while it sinks and stays sunk regardless of how much you stir it. Heat it up a little and more sugar dissolves, cool it off and sugar crystallizes out. Only a little zinc is soluble in lead. Have more and the excess zinc floats on the lead. At less than the solubility limit the zinc won't float out. Expose the homogeneous alloy below the solubility limit to oxygen and the zinc forms zinc oxide which floats. Lead oxide can form and be reduced back to lead by the zinc still dissolved in the alloy. I have been on and off this thread from early on. In my opinion the first part was pretty much an uncharitable put down of people seeking information and the last several posts have been long winded quibllling.containing bad information. Moderators you have not done your job. This post should never have been stickied and should have been closed long ago. Unstick it throw it in the trash and we can all work on restoring our past high standards.

[Bodean74]

Heck I read as much as I could on this site for about 9 months before I even joined.

Same here... Its hard to ask a Question when The more I read the more answers I find thank you guys...three years young to the game.

[joelsteinbach]

I should have read this first before I started to ask questions that have been answered 100 times before, After discovering the search feature of this site, I feel that most of my questions can easily be answered with a little work on my part.

[rwsem]

Regarding the original post...
I couldn't agree more. I've been hear for years, reading, and asking very few questions... There is a trove of information on this forum.

[GoodOlBoy]

So we got off topic, and we didn't agree. I don't see that as a reason to call for the mods to zap a thread.

On topic. Yeah I agree I have spent a long LONG time surfing this forum before I ever joined. For years I have checked here for info, and usually got fairly good leads on what trails to follow to get to where I wanted to be.

GoodOlBoy

[olafhardt]

There is another long winded sticky on here about fillers. The last poster just said he did not want to plow through it to find out if his question had been answered. I thought he came off as somewhat arrogant but he is also demonstrative of the weakness of expecting everyone to dig through huge piles of duff to find an acorn. Expecting a quick answer for a quick question is not uncommon. A serious weakness of this expection is that often responders don't know as much as they think they do.

[GoodOlBoy]

Well Said!

GoodOlBoy

[pjames32]

Recluse, you started a great thread and made your point very well.
I'm new to this site. Just found it this week.
I've been loading nearly 60 years and casting 45+.
I'm still reading the sticky's and learning as I go.
When I started reloading/casting, I was mostly self taught and read everything I could find.
Fortunately there was an old gunsmith in town who was willing to answer my questions and at least keep me safe.
Now, with the internet, there is a lot of knowledge at our finger tips.
With the search feature on this site I've found old posts to answer every question I had.
If a new user asks a question that has been covered, I think steering them to use the search function might be a good idea.
I look forward to tapping the knowledge I see here and learning more about casting.
I too am old, cantankerous with a strong feeling that you can't fix stupid.
With that said I've started a lot of people reloading over the years and I'm willing to share my limited knowledge.

PJ

[rcsch]

Hello,
After asking some questions on another site I was directed here to learn. I've lurked around for a week or so searching and been searching and reading.
I'm almost 65 and have been learning reloading & handloading - shooting & hunting since my mid teens. Been in the US Army & Colo National Guard (shot some Bullseye Pistol and some smallbore rifle for the All Guard team and got introduced to some really fine shooters.
At 39 I changed careers (from a mechanic) and became a Correctional Officer (needed to make a living) which eventually worked into the Facility Armorer & Locksmith Lieutenant. Not a much better job in the DOC other than the warden - I worked directly for him. Being an NRA certified & DOC certified handgun, shotgun, and rifle instructor for 17+ years out of my 21yrs service, I agree - you can't fix "STUPID" you can "ONLY" try to keep them out of "DANGER" and not let them "HARM" anyone else or themselves.
I've always been interested in boolit casting but never got involved until recently - I purchased a bunch of old casting equipment - later to find out some was good and some was not so good. This week I hit the local tire shops searching for lead and acquired a couple 5 gal. buckets of WW - I sorted (learned here how) before I paid.
Now I'm on to some sort of economical device to render down the WWs. From searching your site I have located some suggestions but I want to find out more so I will start reading some more stickies. Is there a particular forum/place for us newbee's to begin with in the world of lead processing?
thanks again for the fine suggestions.
Roy

[s mac]

Welcome rcsch, this place is full of info. As far as your question about rendering your whell weights into usable ingots I'm not sure where to direct you to a particular thread, i'm sure there are several. Basically you need a sturdy vessel, a heat source, i use a cast iron pot, a fish fryer, propane fired and a large ladle to fill a muffin pan. Heat until melted, skim off the trash, clips, throw a handfull of sawdust let it turn to carbod stir in well and skim that off after a few minutes. Maybe repeat a time or two, this will flux the impurites out, ladle into your ingot mold. Do this with good ventilation, outside .

[fifty4]

I have been reloading, and casting since 1972. I have 9 or 10 reloading manuals plus all of them that the powder companies put out , I have dozens of bullet molds. BUT every once in while I cant find the info I need. so I ask. if anyone will ask me a reloading question I will try to help or guide them in the right direction.

[smokeywolf]

Welcome the forum. Sounds like you'll be quite an asset and positive influence.

smokeywolf

[Old Rvr.]

Regarding the original Post. Well Said . I'm 59 and taught myself to reload in the 1970's without any outside help by Reading Books long before the Internet and without anyone to ask questions to. I never had an accident . You really nailed it on some people "not getting it ",mostly the younger GEN. I recently got interested in Trapdoor Rifles and now have two. I will be loading again and will be learning to cast my own bullies to go into my loads. The forums are a great source of info ,but should never be 100 percent relied on .
I fall into the catagory of target shooting once a week mostly with my Historic Mil. Surp. And other old Guns all of witch I know the year of Mfg. And take great pride in owning.
I will probably read and learn more than anything here. Thanks in advance for any info I will learn here. Sorry for the long post., Bruce