Marlin 1895 SS Microgroove and LEE 457-450-F Cast Bullets ?

[DoctorBill]

This is the perennial question.....Marlin Microgroove and Bullet size.

I obtained a Marlin Lever Gun - model 1895 ss in 45-70.

Haven't shot it yet.

The guy I bought it from also included a box of Leverevolution
45-70 ammo - CJ'ed Bullets.

The CJ bullet fits into the barrel right up to the Brass Case.

I am supposing this will shoot really bad as it appears the rifling can't
engrave the CJ'd slug, it being too small a diameter. ? ? ?

I have several 45-70's (H&R's & Pedersoli Sharps) - so I use the
LEE 457-450-F in them and in a Martini-Henri (paper patched).

I read that I should use a .461 or .462 dia cast bullet or paper patch
the LEE up to that size in the Marlin Microgroove 45-70.

I paper patched this cast bullet with two wraps of tracing paper, and it mics
out to .463-4, so it seems too big - is that too large a diameter ?

I decided to "Slug" the Marlin with a the pure lead cast .457 LEE just to see if the
bullet engraves at all.

Here is what I got....

http://s19.postimg.org/v7ky7sffn/Marlin_Engraving_457_450_F_LEE_1.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/yfpfku1pf/Marlin_Engraving_457_450_F_LEE_2.jpg

I was surprised that it engraved so well !

I do believe that this LEE cast bullet would work in my 1895 Marlin Microgroove rifle
without any problem.

Am I wrong ?

You ask, "What powder are you going to use ?"
I use Black Powder usually, but this Marlin should take smokeless also. ? ? ?
Some smokeless load (IMR 4227)would be good to have around for home defense (God Forbid!).

DoctorBill

[Rooster59]

It will engrave as long as your bore diameter is smaller than the bullet diameter. You need to get a good micrometer and measure the slug. Then plan for a bullet at least .002" over that but .003" over groove diameter is better.

[longbow]

My old '70's vintage marlin 1895 shot the Lee .405 gr. FP and the Lyman 457124 385 gr. boolits as cast and rather well. In those days I was not smart enough to know about slugging the bore and sizing to suit. I got lucky and my cast boolits fit well enough I didn't have any trouble at all.

Your Lee looks like it has engraved pretty well to me. I would load some and try them out. If it leads a bit then lap the mould a thou or two.

I used to have an old Hornady book that listed rather stout loads of IMR4227 for .45-70 Marlin and even heavier for the Siamese Mauser/Ruger actions. I found the IMR4227 to be just too fast for heavy loads. The recoil was instantaneous and painful! I wound up using IMR4320 which was much more pleasant to shoot.

I am sure for light to moderate loads the 4227 would be fine but I was running top end loads (young and dumb!).

Anyway, I wondered what people were talking about when the cast boolit/microgroove conversations came up. My .45-70 never had a problem and shot both Lyman and Lee boolits well as cast. What size did they cast you ask? Well, again, I wasn't smart enough to mike them but since accuracy and leading weren't a problem I didn't have to.

That's probably not a bunch of help.

I am sure you will enjoy that Marlin. I know I liked mine and miss it.

Longbow

[DoctorBill]

I measured the 'slug' I did with a digital micrometer - 0.459 at the widest
(bore diameter). That's what my micrometer said when I measured
the barrel at the muzzle. Bore Dia is 0.452 inch.

Without sizing them, the bullets dropping from the LEE 457-450-F mold
are anywhere from .457 to .459 inch at the back ring.

I will load up some of these LEE cast bullets with IMR-4227 and lube
them with LEE's Liquid ALOX. I use Wheel Weight Metal to cast bullets.

I have the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3rd Edition and on page 237,
it lists a 464 grain cast bullet (Lyman #457125) with starting load of
22.0 gr with a Dacron Wad (16,400 CUP) up to a max of 30.0 gr with
a Dacron Wad (35,000 CUP). 464 gr is close enough to 450 gr for
Government work.....450 gr is about 3% less heavy than 464 gr.

I'll go for the starting load for safety and for my shoulder's sake.

It also shows the use of 2400 (24.0 gr with wad) up to 28.0 gr
(with wad) for those who like Hercules 2400 loads.

Off I go to make some reloads......it was 4° F outside this morning.
Ugggh.

DoctorBill

PS - I also have (just remembered) a LEE mold that drops a .457"
500 gr flat nosed bullet made to use a Gas Cap (don't know if a
GC is required, but I made a punch to produce them myself from
Sheet Aluminum).

That ought to kick my shoulder around even better.....

[longbow]

Speaking from experience shooting both a Marlin in .45-70 and a Siamese Mauser I had converted to .45-70, the fast powders are economical to shoot but are hard on the shoulder! The slower powders require considerably more powder for same velocity but the recoil is much more pleasant.

Start with light loads and work up until you are getting slapped around enough to start into a bit of brain damage. I think your shoulder will give out before you are approaching max loads.

I found the Lyman 457124 at 385 grs. to be a really nice weight and it shot well for me with not a lot of recoil. Lots of fun loaded with BP too! The 330 gr. Gould is another I would get if I still had a .45-70.

Longbow

[btroj]

22 to 24 gr of 2400 is a good starting point. Should give 1300fps or so, recoil isn't bad at all.

[DoctorBill]

I have a general question as to which powder is used in particular
cartridges.

I seem to remember from past reading that -

for small bullets one should use faster burning powders.
(The bullet gets moving quickly and has low Inertia).

for larger bullets one should use slower burning powders.
(The bullet has large inertia and more friction. The slower
burning powders do not build up pressure so quickly and tax
the rifle's ability to hold the pressure.)

So why do many, many loads use fast to medium burning
powders in the larger caliber rifles ?

I have a list of 'Burning Rates' for almost all available and
less available powders.

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

4227 and Unique are toward the middle and fast middle of the list.

For a massive 450 grain 45-70, why not use a powder like
Reloader 15, 19, 22 or 25 ? Maybe IMR-4064 or H4831 ?

Would not these slower burning powders also kick less ?
More of a push than a kick.

Black Powder Loads seem to shove instead of smack my shoulder.
Martini-Henri (85 gr B.P.) versus 30-06 Garand or 7.62 Mosin with
a Military Factory Load.

Why not a slower burning rate powder ? Is it dangerous for some reason ?

I HOPE that I am not opening a BIG can of worms by asking this !
None of you - or I - are opinionated.....right ?!

DoctorBill

PS - Have any of you Paper Patchers ever done just one layer of paper ?
If I were to use one layer of Tracing paper, I would get this bullet
up to 0.461 instead of 0.463-4 with two wraps.

[longbow]

DoctorBill:

I think you about have it right. With a large volume straight case like .45-70 which was intended for relatively low pressure BP loads, I think the fast to medium burn powders give what is needed without a lot of pressure. The really slow powders are not likely suitable except for max or near max loads because they need significant pressure to get complete combustion..

It has been many years since I loaded .45-70 and like i said, I started with heavy boolits of 500 grs. (Lyman 457125) and rather large charges of IMR4227 (Hornady manual loads). The heavy boolit and fastish powder worked but had really sharp unpleasant recoil. I had a rethink and went with IMR4320 which was much more pleasant to shoot. Now I was tending toward heavy loads too. Tone it down some and recoil is not so bad.

As for single wrap paper patching, I am not sure how well it would work for cartridge gun but a fellow (Bob Schewe IIRC) had a website all about his .54 cal. muzzleloader and paper patching Minie boolits and he used single wrap. He wanted a tighter to bore fit and reduce leading. He over lapped edges by about 1/16" and glued then wrapped the paper under the base. It worked for him. Last time I looked for his website it was down though.

If I find it I will post a link. Also, I may have printed to PDF so if I have the info I can send it to you. I will look this weekend.

Longbow

[btroj]

I use powders of various burn rates for 45-70. 2400 is used for 1300 to 1400 fps loads. I move up to H322 for 1700 and stuff like Varget for 2000 fps.

[Magnum6]

Doctor Bill , are you sure that rifle has a Microgroove" barrel ? Reason I'm asking , is my S/S Marlin 45~70 Guide gun doesn't have the Microgroove barrel , it's from the Marlin factory built new , about 8 years old now, it has ballard rifling .

Magnum6

[DoctorBill]

Well, here is what is engraved on the barrel. I don't think they'd lie (like Obama does).

http://s19.postimg.org/ad5flvmzn/Marlin_Engraving.jpg

That is the Serial Number and it says North Haven, CT.

If you go back to my first post starting this thread, you can see what
Microgrooving slugs out like.

I read somewhere that sometime around when Marlin moved to New York,
they switched to Ballard Rifling then.
Someone else here may be able to document exactly when they switched.

Here are a few Google Links related to that.
http://articles.courant.com/2011-04-01/business/hc-marlin-firearms-20110401_1_john-m-marlin-frank-kenna-remington-arms
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/marlin/100148-may-11th-news-article-marlin-moving-ny.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlin_Firearms

What does your Marlin have engraved on the barrel ?

DoctorBill

[Rooster59]

That serial number says it is a 1995 made rifle. The standard 22" barrel model of that era would have come with microgroove rifling.

The North Haven barrel stamp wouldn't necessarily mean it was built by the old Marlin company. Remington was allowed to use that barrel stamp for a while after they moved everything to Ilion, NY.

[Rooster59]

Doctor Bill , are you sure that rifle has a Microgroove" barrel ? Reason I'm asking , is my S/S Marlin 45~70 Guide gun doesn't have the Microgroove barrel , it's from the Marlin factory built new , about 8 years old now, it has ballard rifling .

Magnum6

The guide guns and cowboy models used ballard type rifling.

[pls1911]

Not all guide guns use Ballard rifling...
I dead certain....almost... that my early ported gun is Micro groove.
Having stated that, both shoot equally well so long as the bullet is sized .460, is gas checked , and is sufficiently hard.

[Magnum6]

That serial number says it is a 1995 made rifle. The standard 22" barrel model of that era would have come with microgroove rifling.

The North Haven barrel stamp wouldn't necessarily mean it was built by the old Marlin company. Remington was allowed to use that barrel stamp for a while after they moved everything to Ilion, NY.

O ..... Ok There Rooster59 , I learned something NEW" there about these 45~70 . And I'm Sorry about that Dr. Bill , Your Right " Man , It sure Say's That on your barrel.

Magnum6

[Magnum6]

Well, here is what is engraved on the barrel. I don't think they'd lie (like Obama does).

http://s19.postimg.org/ad5flvmzn/Marlin_Engraving.jpg

That is the Serial Number and it says North Haven, CT.

If you go back to my first post starting this thread, you can see what
Microgrooving slugs out like.

I read somewhere that sometime around when Marlin moved to New York,
they switched to Ballard Rifling then.
Someone else here may be able to document exactly when they switched.

Here are a few Google Links related to that.
http://articles.courant.com/2011-04-01/business/hc-marlin-firearms-20110401_1_john-m-marlin-frank-kenna-remington-arms
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/marlin/100148-may-11th-news-article-marlin-moving-ny.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlin_Firearms

What does your Marlin have engraved on the barrel ?

DoctorBill
Well I can't see much of it Dr. Bill , I have the XS Lever Rail system mounted on it and I can't see most of it , but what I can see right there where yours says ( 1895SS Micro~Groove Barrel Cal. 45/70 Govt. ).... Mine says in the same place... ( **** Mod 1895GS Cal. 45/70 Govt. **** ) I presume the GS mean's Guide Stainless . My Ser.# is 96202987 Don't know if that tell anybody anything or not . Prob. Where and When it was built maybe . The checkering and wood looks the same as yours does Dr. Bill .

I think my 45~70 is about 10 year's old now , according to the ser. # so that would tell me it was built at the old Marlin plant before it was acquired by Remington and moved to NY Dr. Bill , I think I'm correct anyhow on that .

[RickinTN]

That slug did go through a Micro-groove barrel. If I remember correctly Marlin went to what some refer to as "New Ballard rifling" in the year 2000.
Rick

[robertbank]

Well I can't see much of it Dr. Bill , I have the XS Lever Rail system mounted on it and I can't see most of it , but what I can see right there where yours says ( 1895SS Micro~Groove Barrel Cal. 45/70 Govt. ).... Mine says in the same place... ( **** Mod 1895GS Cal. 45/70 Govt. **** ) I presume the GS mean's Guide Stainless . My Ser.# is 96202987 Don't know if that tell anybody anything or not . Prob. Where and When it was built maybe . The checkering and wood looks the same as yours does Dr. Bill .

The first tow numbers in the serial number give you the date of manufacture ie 1996

Take Care

Bob

[Rooster59]

Subtract the first two digits from "00" to get the serial nbr. A "96" means it is a 2004 vintage which should be Ballard rifling.

[Magnum6]

Subtract the first two digits from "00" to get the serial nbr. A "96" means it is a 2004 vintage which should be Ballard rifling.

Ok , I see fellow's , I got the gun in a trade deal I made with another fellow at the range , so I didn't what year gun I had here , Yes it has the deep rifling grove's in the barrel . So I'm guessing the rifle is about age 10 now , am I about right here with that ser. # Rooster ? Does anybody know what they put those star thing's **** on there for ?..... Does that mean anything ? or just tryin to look pretty:mrgreen: ... Re: ....> **** Mod 1895GS Cal. 45/70 Govt. ****


Magnum6

[Rooster59]

The asterisks may be filler in a roll stamp device when they don't need all the spots to stamp the desired information for that model. It takes a lot fewer spots when you don't have to stamp "micro-groove" on the barrel. Just a guess based on roll stamp tools I've seen.