Reduced loading?

[wvmedic]

I have been thinking about this for a while and since I found 2400 to be so good in my 357 magnum, I'm considering using it in the 30-06. For reduced loads to take deer out to 200 yards or so, and to narrow the list of powders for me to try to stock. Since I can not seem to find any currently, I lucked into the pound of 2400 I bought and paid a King's ransom for, $ 27.99 + tax.

Sorry for straying, the thing is with the 16 grain starting load of 2400 in .30 caliber cases. Will there be any ill effect on the brass, I was told that shooting reduced loads would cause the firing pin to slam the case forward hard enough to push the shoulder back. Also that the powder charge is not enough to expand the case, resulting in the case being trash in five or so reloads.

Will the 16 or so grains of 2400 cause this, any experience with this?

Thanks, Jeff

[paul h]

If you've fired full power loads through the brass a few times, I doubt that you'll find the firing pin drives the cases hard enough to set the shoulders back after repeated firings with reduced loads. If it does become a problem, just fire a full power load to put the shoulder back to where it belongs.

[ShooterAZ]

You won't push the shoulder back with 16 grains of 2400. Only the "mouse sneeze" loads might. Some guys enlarge the flash holes to prevent this, and the brass needs to be marked in a way to prevent using with full power loads.

[cbrick]

Medic, don't know where you heard that or who said it but think logically for a moment. Does the firing pin spring have the power to re-size 06 brass?

If there is excess headspace the firing pin strike can move the case forward until it seats in the chamber against the case shoulder as it should. If the charge is low enough the sides of the case will not grip the chamber walls and firing can push the entire case rearward against the breech creating the same scenario in the next firing. With excess headspace if the pressure is sufficient to cause the forward portion of the case to grip the chamber walls the rear of the case is pushed back stretching the case forward of the web. This will certainly shorten brass life from one firing to a few depending on the amount of excess headspace.

Properly fire formed brass in your chamber will prevent excess headspace. If you have concerns about your brass being properly fire formed to your chamber simply seat your reduced loads with the boolit ogive against the rifling leade, this will keep the case head against the breech and properly fire form the cartridge shoulder to your chamber. In fact this is how I fire form wildcat cartridges to a new chamber.

Rick

[ShooterAZ]

My understanding of it is this: With greatly reduced loads ie: "mouse sneeze", the primers can back out, forcing the shoulder forward. I have not personally had the shoulder set back, but have had primers back out a little with really light loads on cases that were properly headspaced to start with. I think this may be a result of many, many firings of such light loads.

[cbrick]

Speer wrote an article back in the 50's (was in one of the Speer loading books) about primers backing out on mouse phart loads. If there is enough pressure to get any grip of the forward case walls against the chamber but not enough to stretch the brass internal pressure can cause the primer to back out.

Rick

[44man]

I am 100% in Ricks court here but I have an issue with the OP.
16 gr of 2400 for up to 200 yards in an 06????? Where is the energy? Do you understand the drop?
Firing pins DO NOT FORCE SHOULDERS, where in the world did that info come from?
I have no idea of 16 gr velocity but with a 150 gr boolit and 20 to 21 gr of 2400, you are looking at a shade over 1700 fps.
There is a question of brass grip, case stretch, primers backing out and so on but a case fit to the chamber can shoot anything safe. But 16 gr of 2400 might be a poor 50 yard hunting round.

[wvmedic]

Thanks for the replies.

This is what I was told, which I believe is essentially what your are saying Rick. Just worded a little different. I got this info when I asked about reduced loads in the 30-06 using H4895, this poster advised they had been using SR4759 and included the information bellow.

I would suggest any brass you use for reduced loads to be kept separate from other brass. After a couple of firings, the firing pin has hammered the datum line a hair forward on the brass and using these cases for full loads is akin to excessive head space. Not good. I only use brass 5 times at reduced loads and then they are garbage. By then the primers are starting to back out of the pockets.

Further explanation of the datum line, since I didn't understand it at the time.

The datum line is how deep a chamber is suppose to be cut. The measuring point on a 3006 case is at the shoulder where the brass measures 0.375. That's the datum line. For minimum headspace the depth should be 2.0487 and max at 2.0587. Now consider the firing pin at 25 lbs/Newtons which is about average for a 3006 rifle. You have a 25 lb sledge hammer hitting the primer at fairly high velocity or as we like to call it, lock time. It hammers the brass forward into the chamber and because there is low pressure from the reduced loads, will shorten the case at the datum line with every drop of the firing pin. Now that the case is short, it yields the same condition as excessive head space as it no longer fits the chamber. Should you use brass in this condition with normal pressure loads, when the round goes off, the sides of the brass will grab the chamber walls like it suppose to but the head of the case will be hammered backward from the combustion pressure causing it to split at the head, just like in an excessive head space condition. I've seen 3006 cases that folks have repeatedly fired with reduced loads that were having issues with the rounds going off. It was because the firing pin wasn't traveling far enough to hit the primer in the short brass. When the round is suppose to measure at least 2.0487" but measures 2.0220,for example, that's getting into dangerous territory even with reduced loads.

[Char-Gar]

I have been thinking about this for a while and since I found 2400 to be so good in my 357 magnum, I'm considering using it in the 30-06. For reduced loads to take deer out to 200 yards or so, and to narrow the list of powders for me to try to stock. Since I can not seem to find any currently, I lucked into the pound of 2400 I bought and paid a King's ransom for, $ 27.99 + tax.

Sorry for straying, the thing is with the 16 grain starting load of 2400 in .30 caliber cases. Will there be any ill effect on the brass, I was told that shooting reduced loads would cause the firing pin to slam the case forward hard enough to push the shoulder back. Also that the powder charge is not enough to expand the case, resulting in the case being trash in five or so reloads.

Will the 16 or so grains of 2400 cause this, any experience with this?

Thanks, Jeff

Yes, I have experience with this.

No, it will not cause your cases to shorten headspace.

Carry on!

[wvmedic]

44man, thanks. The data I'm looking at shows a 170 grain GC bullet with a velocity of between a little over 1500 FPS @ 14 grains to 2310 FPS at max charge. Will it make a good 50 yard or 200 yard load, I do not know. I'm trying to find out, I just want to make sure that I am not going to do anything dangerous with reduced loads.

Thanks, Jeff

[wvmedic]

Char-Gar, thank you.

[cbrick]

Well, the solution to putting your mind at rest is simply as I said earlier, seat the boolits long so that the ogive engages the rifling when the bolt is closed. In this condition the case head is held against the bolt face, the boolit is preventing the case from moving forward and nothing moves or stretches. The brass will be perfectly fire formed to your chamber.

Seating a jacketed bullet this way if the load is already maxed out can raise pressure but your talking both a boolit and reduced charges, raising the pressure is not an issue.

Rick

[wvmedic]

I understand Rick, thank you.

[44man]

Char-Gar, thank you.
Char-Gar is correct, you will NOT shorten the brass, the problem is you will not stretch it to fit. Once fit you never size full length again, just enough to chamber. The ideal is to have the shoulder contact and the bolt close with feel so head space is zero. Then light loads can be shot a hundred times from the same brass. Maybe more, the brass will never stretch.
High pressure loads will make brass flow some and might need trimmed once in a while but case life is still long.
Even in my Marlin 30-30 with bolt spring, I set the die so the case just chambers and the lever closes. Yes it is harder on brass with bolt spring but a bolt action is not hard on brass.
Each rifle is different and needs a different size die setting AFTER shooting a load that expands brass to fit. If you use new brass with light loads it might never expand and if you full length every time your brass life is short.
Brass flows backwards with pressure and if you FL, it stretches just ahead of the web and will crack. It is because you set the shoulder back, increasing head space so the brass again flows backwards, thinning the brass in front of the web. The case grips the chamber but the head will go back to the bolt.
Shoot some hot loads first, then size to fit the chamber and no more. Now light loads will not back out primers.
TOSS the measurements. Fit the brass first. Every single chamber is different.
Will a firing pin drive a shoulder back? You will have to beat me to prove that. The primer absorbs any impact, soft metal. Space to compound and anvil. Then the very short pin extension with the bolt taking impact that stops the pin.
Many here shoot light loads with military rifles, strongest firing pin springs ever.
Ask how many toss brass after five shots.

[Wolfer]

I believe your worrying about nothing here. I shoot a lot of 2400 in rifles. In the 30-06 and 170 ish boolits 16 gr at 1500 fps is far from a cat sneeze load. I started with 16 gr and went up in one grain increments until accuracy started falling off. With my soft alloy it was 20 gr and 1700 fps. This is a very accurate load in my three 30-06 and has proven very deadly beyond 200 yds. My boolit is the 311041 with a small HP 1/4" deep. I have one recovered boolit from the deer beyond 200 and it's mushroomed below the crimp groove. It was in the hide on the far side after about 20" of penatration. The other shot was a pass through. Most of my deer shooting is under 60 yds and these loads work great. I have my doubts that the HP is necessary especially if you hit the shoulder but I like the insurance in case I hit behind the shoulder and go between two ribs.
I believe everyone who wants to shoot cast in a rifle start with 2400. It's simple, consistent and very accurate. It will have a top velocity with accuracy at 1700/1800 fps. Once you have this you can work on going faster with something else if you so desire. I personally find the 2400 loads to be all I need. Woody

[dverna]

It is great to see people who do not want to use 3000 ft-lb loads to shoot 125 lb deer.

A long shot here in northern MI is 200 yards and most are under 75 yards. One of the guys I know uses a 300 Remington Ultra Mag. --- I do not understand.

[cbrick]

It is great to see people who do not want to use 3000 ft-lb loads to shoot 125 lb deer.

A long shot here in northern MI is 200 yards and most are under 75 yards. One of the guys I know uses a 300 Remington Ultra Mag. --- I do not understand.

:mrgreen: It's good to know that I'm not the only one that thinks like that. I don't understand the need or desire for an uber magnum at normal deer ranges either. It's really just a matter of how deep in the dirt behind the deer do want the bullet to go.

Rick

[Wolfer]

I was talking with my nephew this weekend about deer hunting. He said he would like to get a bigger rifle. I asked what he was using now. 7mm mag he replies. I said I would be looking at going smaller.

[wvmedic]

200 yards is a long shot for most hunting here, though there places that are a lot farther. Most shots are well under 100 yards. I don't want to shot over 200 yards, and I do not want heavy recoil. When I was young I loved to shot my 30-06, recoil was no issue. Not so much now days, I want something that is pleasant to shot in a bolt action that will take deer to 200 yards.

[williamwaco]

Cbrick +1

.

[wvmedic]

I thought about getting a 260 Rem, but I already have the 30-06 and do not want to buy another riffle. The 77/357 is nice and does fine at say 125 yards or less, I would like to use the 30-06 to extend the range a little and let the wife hunt with the 77/357.

[Char-Gar]

The 30-06 has been around for 110 years now and generations of shooters and hunters have found it to be an excellent round. Taking deer with cast bullet loads in this round has been done as long as the round has existed. It will suit your purposes admirably without the need to invest in another rifle.

Do, clean all of the metal fouling out of the barrel before going to cast bullets. With products like Wipe-Out we have today, this is a fairly easy job.

[44man]

Would anyone here use a 30-30 to 200 yards for deer? Well, maybe, I don't know. But to take an 06 to less then a 30-30 and want to shoot that far does not seem right.
You all know I am against magnum 7mm's and .300's for deer at short ranges, they are for looong range or very large game. They have a place and it is not 50 yards for deer.
The 30-30 is a great gun at deer ranges and the size of deer.
It comes down to things like the .357 revolver that can lose 50% of deer hit at close range. But someone will always say it is great after one or two deer. Same as a long shot with a slow boolit from the 06 or a 30-30 where a few deer were killed. Conditions right and a 30-30 could kill at 1000 yards but do you think it is 100% kills?
There is the problem. Some say yes but energy is needed, not just a hole. The amount of energy is not the question, it is where it happens in the animal. Shoot your deer at 200 with no energy, then find the deer. You might, then tell everyone it is good to go.
To reduce a 30-06 to a 30-30 does not make a 200 yard rifle. I am sorry, can't take the 30-06 recoil, retire from hunting, you are a not ethical any longer. The 06 is a good gun, to make it less then what it is sucks.
I will never go along with shooting at any animal with less then needed.
What is a deer? A target?

[LAH]

Used a bunch of 2400 in my '06 over the years, 20 grains mostly & the RCBS 30-180-FN. This does 'bout 1800 fps. It will shoot just fine at 200 yards but the longest deer shot I've personally made was 85 yards, one shot, one deer. The 16 grain load is world famous & is used in many military rounds with cast boolits.

[wvmedic]

44man, no I am not saying a deer is merely a target and I certainly do not want to nor will I use this load if it is that poor. As far as a 30-30 being a 200 yard deer gun, I absolutely believe so in the right hands. The kinetic energy is 990 foot pounds at 200 yards, given the 1000 foot pounds most gun righters suggest, why not?

Also given that I have killed deer with the 357 magnum with less kinetic energy than that, why is it not possible?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm seriously asking for answers so I can understand.

Thanks, Jeff

[Wolfer]

While it seems my load is less than a 30-30 I like to look at what I know. While some charts will show a factory 150 gr round going 2200 fps or faster mine will sometimes break 2000 with a 150 Winchester factory load. I haven't shot any 170s over the chrony but I doubt they'll go much over 1800 in my gun.
Therefore I consider a 177 gr HP at or near that velocity to be its equal.
I've never shot a deer or coyote with this load that didn't show serious expansion, even the one at 200 yds. Since I've shot several deer with a 45 colt and a 58 rem cap and ball I know that if I put a reasonable sized hole thru both lungs I'll have a dead deer shortly.
Since my weak 30-06 loads have shown no problems with penatration and expansion I believe the limiting factor is how far I can reliably place this boolit under field conditions.
I personally would not hesitate to take a 200 yard shot if I felt I could make it. By that same token I never take a shot that I'm not certain I can make. I'm not saying I can't miss, it is hunting and for the record I'm an excellent tracker.
While I'm not recoil shy I do enjoy the fact that these loads have none.
Just my opinion formed from my experience. Woody

[Outpost75]

I suppose it is time for me to chime in on this thread. Going back to the OP, dealing with reducdx loads in the. 30-'06 in particular, head to datum length is not set back by the firing pin impact, but rather by the primer blast, when chamber pressure is insufficient to expand the case walls to grab the chamber. In this case, using very mild loads, below about 20,000 psi, rimless cases will shorten after several reloads, unless held against the boltface by a Springfield or Mauser type claw extractor, which limits forward movement oc the case head away from the boltface.

Using subsonic gallery loads in the '06 with 150-grain plainbased bullets, I have had no issues with headspace loosening, when fired in the Springfield, Mausers, M1917 US Enfield or pre-64 Winchester Model 70 or earlier Model 54s. But it is an issue witb " slam-feeder" rifles having a springloaded plunger ejector.

The easiest way to mitigate against this is not to remove case sizing lubricant from rimless cases used for reduced loads, letting gas pressure hold the case against the boltface and maintain shoulder position.

There is no issue with rimmed or belted cases inthis regard, and the 16 grain #2400 load st about 1600 fps in tbe '06 with 150-160-grain bullet, is enoughto expand the case normally.

[runfiverun]

i'll throw in another direction here just to give you something to look at.
if the 30-06 is a bit too much and the 30-30 is too little, think about this.
you are a reloader you can use different components to make the rifle do what you want.
there is no reason why a hy-brid load with a 150gr 30-30 bullet at 2550 fps wouldn't do everything you want it to do out to 200 yds through your 0-6.
it would definately lower the recoil of the rifle but still perform exactly how you want the bullet to.

[wvmedic]

Thank you to everyone for the information, how does someone learn these things? I have read for example the 2400 load I'm referring to here from people on this board that I would consider to be very experienced, this isn't the only place I've seen it. But I wouldn't read something from the web and just go try it either, so how do you learn about such? I haven't found this information in any manuals, I want to be as educated as I can so I don't do something dangerous.

runfiverun, that is what I want to accomplish. We are in the 300 Savage area there, but is that doable with cast?

Basically what I want to do is get as much trigger time in as inexpensively as possible on my hunting riffle, so I can be as familiar with it as possible. While I can handle the 30-06, shooting full throttle 30-06 off the bench just isn't fun for me anymore. Even with that though even in hunting situations I think I could throttle the 30-06 back some to be a more enjoyable shooter and still be more than enough gun to take deer and maybe the occasional black bear.

Thanks again.

[Wolfer]

Yes there is very little printed, lab tested info out there. Getting more power from your gun is pretty well understood. Cutting it back is not.
I hunted for 20 years with r5rs loads with excellent results. Not intentionly of course. When I didn't have a chrony and I believed what I read in reloading manuals. From the Sierra #2 I was shooting a 165 SBT 2800 fps. This load was very accurate in my old 760 and did a great job on deer. I never had a bullet blow up or come apart. The ones I've recovered are picture perfect. But alas all good things must come to an end.
Several years back I got a chrony. Much to my dismay my favorite proven loads were just breaking 2500 fps. After a lot of testing and trying I learned a couple things. My old 760 shoots great with reduced loads, it will not shoot great with full power loads. Useable but not great. When I didn't know my loads were inferior I hunted with confidence. The many deer I shot didn't seem to be aware I was using a substandard load. I now have 3 loads, the cast load, a 2500 fps load for my 760 and 2800 fps load for my bolt guns.
As the years go by I use the jacketed loads less and less.

While getting to 2500 in a 10" twist may be doable it is far beyond my expertise.

The best way I've found to get reduced loads with accuracy is to use full pressure loads with faster powders. I've never had any luck with rifle powders at lower than full pressure. 4895 is an exception but it's still best toward its top end.
Lees reloading manual lists loads in order of velocity. This makes it very simple to sort thru. He also has a section on reducing loads. I have a lot of manuals but I use the lee the most because of its simplicity.
Woody

[Newtire]

Jim Carmichael wrote a great article in either Handloader or Rifle magazine years ago called "Light Loads for Light Rifles". In it, he listed some loads using RX-7 at around 2400-2500 FPS. One of those 150 grain Ballistic Tip bullets is made for that kid of expansion. I loaded up some of these with 33, 38 and 41 grains in my 06 and the 38 grain load was deadly accurate. A cast boolit at those velocities should be OK for speed and energy. Don't have any experience with .30 cast and deer shooting here though.

[captaint]

Getting back to the headspace issue - there's a way to completely eliminate headspace in handloaded bottleneck rifle ammo.. it's in the sizing die. First, take the cocking piece and firing pin spring out of the bolt. Now, the bolt will close just on the weight of the bolt handle - completely into battery. Take a fired case and see how it "feels" on closing the bolt. This works especially well on Mauser 98's and old Winchesters. Even with bolts with plunger ejectors, you can still really feel the brass when it just touches at the shoulder on the closed bolt.
Later after a few firings, the sizing die will have to be adjusted a little, but what the heck, NO HEADSPACE.. No worries. Just my experience. Mike

[1Shirt]

As usual, I fully go along with the comments of 44Man! He speaks common sense and logic!
1Shirt!

[44man]

What you ask can be done and done with cast. Still it is going to be accuracy and energy at the animal above all else.
An old saying from experts is the .45 is as large as an expanded .30 but experience will show it is not what is going on because it is just a hole from the .45 unless you also have energy.
The muzzle energy stuff is not what kills fast, look at ball ammo with high ME, you never hunt with the stuff. It is what your bullet/boolit does when deer are hit. You must regulate your boolit for the velocity but you need accuracy no matter what so going too slow with a mile of drop at range or the wrong alloy is all working against you. A .30 caliber hole only is not what you want, the same as only a .45 caliber hole.
You need to remember that recoil when hunting is never felt so looking for none at the bench is also against you.
I am a revolver hunter and use from the .44 to the .500 JRH and even the .44 will put deer down very fast at close ranges but once 100 yards is reached, deer will go farther with less of a blood trail. To understand this means a different alloy or a hollow point is better at 100 then what works at 50. Then the size of the animal also changes what you need.
Shooting cast is like jacketed, there is a different bullet for everything. Shoot a deer with a tough moose bullet and you have a problem. Shoot a moose with a light fast opening deer bullet and you have a problem.
You will not find cast hunting info in any manual, it is only found with experience. Cast works but I am not in a position to tell you what you need for what you ask.
Nobody carries different boolits for different ranges when hunting.
It reminds me of an old friend I hunted small game with long ago. He used a double and had a rabbit sitting next to his foot. His hand loaded 12 ga was for birds, he opened the gun, took out the shells and put two lighter loads in. He snapped the gun shut and reached down in a flash to catch the rabbit by hand.
Unless you can run a deer down, you are at the mercy of what you shoot.
I have far exceeded 500 deer kills with every gun and arrow that can be used and am still learning. Tons of meat with revolvers and I am still learning, several revolvers I will not hunt with this season because I did not do boolit work.
You need to work the hard way but it is going to cost you animals, animals that should never be lost.

[Char-Gar]

Thank you to everyone for the information, how does someone learn these things? I have read for example the 2400 load I'm referring to here from people on this board that I would consider to be very experienced, this isn't the only place I've seen it. But I wouldn't read something from the web and just go try it either, so how do you learn about such? I haven't found this information in any manuals, I want to be as educated as I can so I don't do something dangerous.

Thanks again.

Cast bullet rifle shooting has always been a "sub-culture" of the rifle and hunting people. It is quite old but just not very visable in the popular press. When smokeless powder and jacketed bullets came on the scene, folks jumped on it, just like folks threw away paper and pencil when the typewriter came along and later the digital stuff. New always trump old.

But "back in the day" money was very hard to come buy and some folks continued to cast bullets and find ways to adapt the old technology to more modern smaller caliber high velocity rounds. When the Great Depression set in, there was an uptick in bullet casting and continued through WWII when ammo became very very scarce. At war's end, the ammo started flowing again and folks when back to shooting the dreadful little yellow thingies.

Everybody except a few hard core caster who continued to practice the craft and learn as we go. In the late 90's the few were able to gather on the internet and this board was born. With the current economic downturn and political uncertainty with the current administration, people are once again turning to bullet casting in larger numbers.

The information you seek has always been out there and is generations old, just not very visible, due to lack of popularity. So you are at the right place. I would also suggest you check out the Cast Bullet Association and it's forum as a good source of information.

This board is quite large, which is both good and bad. It is good in that large numbers can gather and learn from each other. It is bad in that some of the folks post stuff that opinion, hearsay, and myth they have picked up somewhere and not backed up with experience. Of course, we do have a village idiot or two that makes the rounds here. We also have some very knowledgably and experienced people as well. Your task is to determine who is giving trustworthy counsel and who is not. Making this decision is something like walking across a frozen lake. Test the ice before you put your weight on it.

[LAH]

Will there be any ill effect on the brass, I was told that shooting reduced loads would cause the firing pin to slam the case forward hard enough to push the shoulder back.

C.E. Harris had this to say:
Repeated loading of rimless cases with very mild loads results in the primer blast shoving the
shoulder back, unless flash holes are enlarged with a No. 39 drill bit to 0.099" diameter. Cases which
are so modified must never be used with full powered loads! Always identify cases which are so
modified by filing a deep groove across the rim and labeling them clearly to prevent their
inadvertent use. For this reason on I prefer to do my plain based practice shooting in rimmed cases
like the 30-30, 30-40 Krag, 303 British and 7.62x54R which maintain positive headspace on the rim
and are not subject to this limitation.

You can & should read the whole article as it's an easy read & informative. You may find it here: http://home.comcast.net/~gavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf

[Wolfer]

This was the article that got me into cast rifle shooting.

[LAH]

This was the article that got me into cast rifle shooting.

And many others.

[wvmedic]

Char-Gar and 44man thank you very much for giving me some teaching, I really want to go straight cast. I will keep working toward that goal. I just want to get away from jacketed, although I have a couple hundred bullets of them from Nosler, Barnes, Sierra and Speer as well as three pounds of H4895. I will get a plinking load started with the 30-06 and work up from there. Might use the others for hunting for now, till I get some knowledge and experience under my belt.

Wolfer thank you for your input as well as everyone else.

LAH, I have C.E. Harris' article saved as a PDF. I've had it for a while now, that was another trusted source of the 2400.

[cbrick]

Interesting, I sometimes attend the SHOT Show with a media badge meaning I get press releases from several manufacturers. I just received this from Hornady and except for using them ugly brown projectiles goes hand in hand with this thread.

The link includes a 1 1/2 minute video to announce Hornady Custom Lite ammo. I wonder if they were reading this thread? :mrgreen:

Hornady Custom Lite ammunition (http://www.hornady.com/store/Custom-Lite-New)

Rick

[wvmedic]

Thanks Rick, I've got loads like that using them ugly brown projectiles. Just not for cast, other than what is in the 2nd edition of the Lee, Speer has some reduced data though not for cast.

Jeff

[44man]

C.E. Harris had this to say:
Repeated loading of rimless cases with very mild loads results in the primer blast shoving the
shoulder back, unless flash holes are enlarged with a No. 39 drill bit to 0.099" diameter. Cases which
are so modified must never be used with full powered loads! Always identify cases which are so
modified by filing a deep groove across the rim and labeling them clearly to prevent their
inadvertent use. For this reason on I prefer to do my plain based practice shooting in rimmed cases
like the 30-30, 30-40 Krag, 303 British and 7.62x54R which maintain positive headspace on the rim
and are not subject to this limitation.

You can & should read the whole article as it's an easy read & informative. You may find it here: http://home.comcast.net/~gavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf
There is the way it is, primer blast, not firing pin impact. Primers come back with a lot of force and there is not enough pressure to expand the brass to re-seat and fill the chamber. That could move shoulders back.
The question is; when brass fits first, will primer back pressure also force shoulders back?
Loads must be very light but so is back pressure. With zero head space the shell head is against the bolt. This is in the realm of a pellet gun where you can watch the boolit go to the target.
I sure don't know. The only experience I have is with rubber boolits shot with only primers that will back out so holes need drilled.

[cbrick]

Thanks Rick, I've got loads like that using them ugly brown projectiles. Just not for cast, other than what is in the 2nd edition of the Lee, Speer has some reduced data though not for cast. Jeff

:mrgreen: I wasn't suggesting to use these, just an interesting coincidence that as we speak of this Hornady comes out with the same thing.

I would never suggest using them ugly brown things when a perfectly good "real" bullet is available. Been 25-30 years since I've bought a store bought loaded round cept rimfire.

Rick

[Char-Gar]

Your goal is very reachable. After 35 years as a serious handloader and shooter, I decided to go all cast about 20 years ago. Jacketed bullets cease to give me the challenge and satisfaction they once did. There are so many variables in cast bullet shooting that they provide a lifetime of enjoyment and learning.

The basics of cast bullet shooting are not that complex though it may seem so from time to time. A good 30-06 bolt gun is a very good place to start or finish for that matter.

Any counsel given by C.E. "Ed" Harris will support your weight and can be relied on. Allot of his writing and cast bullet wisdom has been collected and published on Grant Cunningham's web site.

[MtGun44]

As far as I can see, the only issue with the low velocity loads is the wind drift and drop at 200 may be
an issue - making it harder to put the boolit where it needs to be. If you can reliably judge the
range and make the hold necessary, you should be fine.

Bill

[303Guy]

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is the heavier boolit. Similar velocity, better velocity retention at range and higher muzzle and downrange energy. 2400 may not be optimum for a heavier boolit though, I don't know - I'd think that in the 30-06 more powder would not be overpressure for an alloy that will expand on impact. I'm thinking 200 to 220 gr boolits.

[LAH]

I haven't used 2400 for the heavy stuff though my RCBS 30-180-FN bullet does cast 190 grains. I'm using the 311284 with IMR 4895 & so far so good from 2000-2200 FPS.

[wvmedic]

Well, I certainly have some food for thought. Now to just get started on working up different loads with the 30-06 and try to gain some knowledge.

Thanks

[wallenba]

2400 is really versatile for cast boolits, and it sounds like you are fond of it, and set on using it. But... have you considered SR-4759 as a reduced load powder?

[ShooterAZ]

Or 5744?

[LAH]

5744 is a great powder. I use it in my 45-70.

[wvmedic]

Wallenba, I'm not what you would call set on it. I have three calibers I'm going to be casting and reloading for, possibly four. They are 357 magnum carbine X3, a 1911 in 9mm and the 30-06. I do have a Savage 170 in 30-30, while I have taken a deer with it and it is a nice gun. The trigger is horrible on it, very stiff. I'm not sure a smith could do anything with the trigger or not, from my understanding the trigger group on them can be a real pain to do anything with. The Savage 111 in 30-06 with the adjustable trigger is very nice, and it's a bolt. Which I'm extremely found of, I have two 92's that I like. But I do prefer a bolt, that's why I bought the 77/357. The trigger on it is stiff as well, but I just got a new sear spring in the mail today for it.

But no, I'm not set on 2400. It is what I am using in the 357 magnum and thought it might be able to pull double duty due to the difficulty in getting powder at the moment. As it is now I can not get any powder, every where I check for the powder I need. There is none, I only have about a half pound of 2400, Unique, H110 and three in a half pounds of H4895. So that's why I was thinking 2400.

Thanks, Jeff

[Certaindeaf]

Don't forget Red Dot and "The Load". It certainly won't reach the upper levels of 2400 but 13 grains of Red Dot should be close to the lower end loads of 2400. I've been using The Load under a Lyman 190 grain spitzer for years.. paper, small game and varmints.

[JohnH]

Get yourself a Lyman reloading manual. They are chock full of reduced load data. If you frequent gun shows, you can locate older Lyman manuals as well. Also the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual 4th edition will very likely serve your needs well.

[wvmedic]

JohnH, are you referring to the 49th edition? That one I do not have, I've been thinking about ordering the 4th edition.

[runfiverun]

the lyman cast bullet manual [third edition] is worth looking for online or at the shows.

[wvmedic]

Thanks runfiverun, I will look for it.