Newb with big ideas ... bring me back to earth. Please?

[FriedChicken]

I have never cast, swaged, reloaded ... or done much of anything beside buy ammo from walmart.

Lately I've been obsessing over the idea of getting deeply involved in the hobby and later a business.
I'm not able to invest in any equipment now or spend time trying things out - I'm just wanting to know if my thoughts of doing this as a business (self supportive hobby to pay for the equipment and my own ammo with a little income left over. Not a full time living.) is at all feasible or if I should just get use to the idea of being a hobby reloader only.

At the moment I'm broke and 99% of my spare time is being put in working on a house for me and my family to move into.
But in about 6 months I think I'll completely debt free (including house) and most of the work should be done on the house. So I'd like to start building up my setup and skills then and maybe grow it into a nice stay at home side business over the years.

I don't know anyone personally who is into this stuff.

So ... what do I need to know before the day dreaming gets too far out of control?

1. Is there any money to be made or is the best I can hope for is making my own ammo more affordable/custom?
2. What calibers should I start with?
3. How long did it take you guys to get good at this? How long should I expect this to be trial/error and money losing before consistently producing quality/selling products?
4. Should I be working towards [legally] selling live rounds rather than just projectiles as a better and more diverse business?

I was thinking that if I was skilled and making high quality 50bmg, 50AE, 500S&W, .45LC, etc. (less common/more niche market) projectiles would be the most profitable plan?

This is definitely a thread that should cause many to role their eyes.
New guy comes in with a head full of ideas without a single clue of how things are done. Not to mention starting his own thread as a first post, lol.
Sorry to fit so many cliches in one introduction to the forum.
I don't mind anyone telling me the way it is even if you're worried about it coming off as rude.

Its just ... I'd rather pour cold water on this idea now rather than later and try to have the most realistic expectations in as far advanced as possible.

Thanks!

[jmort]

There was a recent thread on this. Lot of good information. If you are debt free and have the time and
$$$ it might be a good idea, especially if you love what you are doing.

[FriedChicken]

There was a recent thread on this. Lot of good information. If you are debt free and have the time and
$$$ it might be a good idea, especially if you love what you are doing.

Oh ****, I'm sorry. Didn't notice that there was a recent thread on this (I knew there was surely 100k started in the past though, but I wasn't having a ton of luck with the search function and got antsy)

I'll look through some more pages and see if I can find the other thread you talked about. Thanks.


edit: haven't been around long enough to know if the censorship is mandatory or a setting I have enabled but ... just for clarification the **** wasn't anything hardcore. Started with 'C' and ended with 'P' and is a more creative way to describe excrement. lol.

[RickinTN]

I will say this....Casting is the only hobby/thing I've ever done that I can remember that I could just re-melt my mistakes and start over. No loss of materials. The pages here are a great start and should be studied thoroughly. You'll still have to come back for clarification probably many times along the way. I would first work on learning the art/science of casting as a hobby and then consider it as a commercial endeavor.
Good luck with the house and the casting,
Rick

[bangerjim]

Doing what we all do as a hobby is a ton-o-fun. Doing it for a living??????????..........involves the FEDs , licenses, permits, etc. Probably not worth it...at least to me.

I sure would never attempt to cast and sell stuff that shoots.

I, as many on here, cast, load, and shoot thousands of rounds........FOR MYSELF, not for anyone else or for profit. Heaven knows, you do NOT save any money doing this. It is just the fun & satisfaction of being able to make your own stuff that goes bang in any shape and load you want......when you want it........without standing in line with a bunch of bozos at WalFart at 7AM.

Like the wife reminds me when she finds me in the shop........"Honey, this hobby that was going to save us hundreds.....is now costing us thousands."

Casting.......... is not rocket science. It takes a bit-o-practice, but after a few tries (and failures) you will be old hand at it.

And RickinTN is right! My other hobbies of metal and woodworking do not allow me a "do-over" as easy as casting!!!!!!!

Loading.....just follow the published guidelines of powder/cal/casing/weight and you will be fine. Buy the books! Once you load up a few at the starting loads, you can start cranking up the powder a bit towards the full load. You do NOT need to spend ~$600 on a Dillon multi-stage. Get a Lee $30 single stage press to start. You will ALWAYS use it in the future when/if you get something bigger.

Powder coating saves you hundreds of dollars in NOT buying a grease Lubra-matic. Use Lee $20 sizing dies in the above press. Check out the stickies on PC'ing for a good overview to see if/when you want to do it. I have a couple of guys I am mentoring that skipped the whole greasy lube thing (pan/LLA/lubra-matic) and went directly to PC........and never looked back. Use the Harbor Freight electrostatic gun for perfect results.

I do not think I have or ever will "break even". There is always that "other" mold or primers or powder that I need and must have.

Good luck with your dream. Be sure you plant some large healthy money trees around that house! You will need 'em. :drinks:


banger :guntootsmiley:

[waksupi]

Considering you are new at the game, I would most likely not be buying from you, as you don't yet have the knowledge to turn out what I could depend on being correct. As for learning, I'm still at that, after 40 years of reloading, handloading, and casting. You have a good mind set though, and will find a niche you fit in.

[blltsmth]

If you want to check out swaging, go to swage.com and check out the myriad of things dave corbin has to offer there for free. As far as making this a paying proposition without experience and a deep-pockets investor, probably never going to happen. Been casting for 44 years and swaging for 24. Lots of money invested and a great deal of knowledge obtained, but probably just now getting to the break even point of the hobby. Stay with your mindset and EXPLORE all options as presented and then make a decision. GOOD LUCK!!!

[FriedChicken]

on my phone so forgive any mistakes I make.
I'm definitely not looking to make a living off the idea, just decent side income to cover my own ammunition and maybe a little extra. however ... think I've already been talked out of the business aspect anyway. Iread on another thread that the fees to do this would be over $2000. that alone kills this idea. I got the impression from somewhere else that as long as I only sold projectiles it was really cheap and easy to stay legal ... now I'm thinking that was a mistaken impression.

also seems the point in time where I would be skilled enough might be further away than I can afford.

definitely have every intention of casting and maybe swaging later for my own reloads. but I can already see that a business isn't feasible.

sorry to start a thread with such a fast conclusion. thank you everyone for the discussion.





Doing what we all do as a hobby is a ton-o-fun. Doing it for a living??????????..........involves the FEDs , licenses, permits, etc. Probably not worth it...at least to me.

I sure would never attempt to cast and sell stuff that shoots.

I, as many on here, cast, load, and shoot thousands of rounds........FOR MYSELF, not for anyone else or for profit. Heaven knows, you do NOT save any money doing this. It is just the fun & satisfaction of being able to make your own stuff that goes bang in any shape and load you want......when you want it........without standing in line with a bunch of bozos at WalFart at 7AM.

Like the wife reminds me when she finds me in the shop........"Honey, this hobby that was going to save us hundreds.....is now costing us thousands."

Casting.......... is not rocket science. It takes a bit-o-practice, but after a few tries (and failures) you will be old hand at it.

And RickinTN is right! My other hobbies of metal and woodworking do not allow me a "do-over" as easy as casting!!!!!!!

Loading.....just follow the published guidelines of powder/cal/casing/weight and you will be fine. Buy the books! Once you load up a few at the starting loads, you can start cranking up the powder a bit towards the full load. You do NOT need to spend ~$600 on a Dillon multi-stage. Get a Lee $30 single stage press to start. You will ALWAYS use it in the future when/if you get something bigger.

Powder coating saves you hundreds of dollars in NOT buying a grease Lubra-matic. Use Lee $20 sizing dies in the above press. Check out the stickies on PC'ing for a good overview to see if/when you want to do it. I have a couple of guys I am mentoring that skipped the whole greasy lube thing (pan/LLA/lubra-matic) and went directly to PC........and never looked back. Use the Harbor Freight electrostatic gun for perfect results.

I do not think I have or ever will "break even". There is always that "other" mold or primers or powder that I need and must have.

Good luck with your dream. Be sure you plant some large healthy money trees around that house! You will need 'em. :drinks:


banger :guntootsmiley:

[RogerDat]

I'm just getting started myself and by my scratch pad calculations buying a $30 wack-a-mole Lee Loader, powder, primers, and 500 cast bullets I can reload 500 rounds of 38 special brass I already have for about 1/2 price. Maybe a little more due to some minor items I had to purchase. Next 500 will drive my overall expense for 1000 rounds down to about what I could purchase reloaded 38's for. If I cast my own bullets for that second 500 rounds while keeping my expenses down to $45 that purchasing the bullets would have cost my cost per round would still be about the same as purchasing 1000 rounds reloaded (assuming I could find them).

To produce even modest quantities I would need to purchase equipment that would allow me to be more efficient, expensive equipment which with materials would take the first few 1000 rounds to break even with just purchasing bullets. So don't see how one could easily turn a profit at least not in the short term. Especially if one is not able to provide a level of expertise above the norm for reloading or purchasing store bought.

If over time I gain knowledge of what the value is for equipment or materials It may be that I will be able to spot good deals on used items or scrap lead and reduce the cost of equipment or supplies. Or even feed my own habit at a reduced cost by swapping, or selling what I find. But even then I'm doubtful it would be really profitable unless I found a "rare" find at a really good price, knowing enough to identify that find takes time to learn. And as a community reloading and casting folks seem to me to be more about passing a good deal on to the next fellow who can use it more, rather than making a good profit. That community mind set is the market a "business" would have to operate in. Tough competition.

[Wolftracker]

Casting isn't as expensive as swaging of course. Both take time and money to learn. It is probably best to make bullets for what you shoot the most, starting small until you get good at it. Frankly, to make money at it, you have to go big or go home. ITAR registration and taxes make it difficult to make enough $ to support the hobby. I'm sure there are some who have found a way though. Good luck!

[FriedChicken]

yeah, thank you everyone. I think every post here had very valuable information. I overlooked the ITAR stuff - I read nearly the entire page here: http://www.corbins.com/business.htm and I think it was pretty misleading about the red-tape involved.

based on this my idea wasn't too far fetched but it did seem "too easy" so I knew I was missing something, hence why I came here.

Hopefully by this time next year I'll be doing quite a bit of casting and maybe even some swaging and my own reloads.

Thanks again all.

[toolz568]

You could just sell the bullets. I started swaging 45's and have a great bullet that costs about .05 a piece to make. The big problem is it it would take over a thousand to break even if you sold the bullets at .25 each. I do not think I will ever break even, but showing off BT's bullets is really neat and they shoot great.

[R.Ph. 380]

My 223 cartridges were a big hit at Alpine Range here in Fort Worth. The Range Officer inspects all magazines to ensure only hollow or soft points are being used. Was he surprised when I told him how they were made. Talking to him now and told him about this thread.

Bill

[Nickle]

FriedChicken, no problem bringing up the subject. It sure doesn't hurt discussing it often, and if doing so saves just one person the legal headaches from having run afoul of the law, I figure it's work it.

Making bullets and selling them requires a Type 06 FFL and ITAR registration. I've gotten that info from ATF, and State Department's website on ITAR.

I've heard some relief is in the works, but have seen nothing more than rumors. Now, I hope it will happen, but I just won't bet on it.

As to what caliber to start with, well, what caliber do you shoot, and how much of it?

It's going to cost a fair amount to get set up to swage, much more than casting. So, you'll want to justify the cost to yourself, if you go this route.

That's the negative stuff.

I think you can certainly make better than you can buy, except buying custom bullets. And, you can at least match that quality. It's a matter of the materials and equipment you use, and your ability.

I swage because I don't want to get caught in a shortage again, and I have rifles that warrant using custom or handmade bullets.

I use rimfire jackets for 224 practice and dubbing around, and Corbin or J4 jackets for serious use.

[fredj338]

You can make some $$, how much will depend on what you pay for the mat'ls & what you sell the ammo/bullets for. I did this back in the 90s, casting & making CAS ammo. There wasn't much available then & I only sold at major matches & had a small following. A lot of time goes into it as well as a decent equip investment, but you can make some $$. Min for commercial reloading would be a 650 case feeder. For comm casting, a Magma Master caster & Star/Magma sizer.
Regardless of doing it as a business, you can certainly shoot for at least 50% less than cheap factory. At current prices, my 45acp runs me less than $4/50 using my cast bullets.

[oldrodder]

I dabble in building streetrods for another hobby. As we say there...................if you want to make a small fortune swaging bullets (or building cars) you must first start with a large fortune!!!!

Mike

[xman777]

When you guys find a way to get rich quick, let me know. Til then, well everything takes time. You don't have to jump in head first and spend a ton of cash trying to optimize and increase throughput with automation etc... Start with what you have time for and learn it.
I read so many posts here where guys think they can just buy some stuff and turn a profit immediately by selling bullets. Unless you do it better and cheaper than the big guys, you won't be selling many bullets.
Do it because you want to first, then see if you like it enough to do it as a business.

[Nickle]

Like I said before, if you're going to make bullets and sell them, you need a Type 06 FFL, register and collect excise tax and register for ITAR.

Cast or jacketed, they don't care. Still got to do it.

Some folks try to "fly under the radar". I don't and won't.

The penalties, if caught are severe. It just isn't worth it. They won't excuse "ignorance" of the law, they do investigate and prosecute. And ITAR is run by the Secretary of State's office. You know, John Kerry. It used to be Hillary Clinton. Think they really respect your gun rights? Or do they want to take your rights and send you to jail?

Guys, simply think about it. Is it worth the risk?

[a.squibload]

I don't have all that much equipment but have accumulated
it over many years. Would not be shooting one to three times
a month if I didn't cast/swage/reload, store-bought ammo is
just too expensive. Equipment & supplies never seem to get
cheaper so I could say I got a "deal" on stuff I bought years ago,
or last year, or from a garage sale, etc.
Never considered commercial sales as regulations, fees, taxes
& liability were above my pain threshold, but some guys have
done it & I admire their fortitude!

[jgt]

You are asking questions that only you can answer. The fact that you are working on your own house and state when it is finished you will be debt free speaks volumes for your wisdom. When the time comes, get some reloading manuals. They don't have to be new, but something published in the last fifty years would be more useful. They will tell you how to reload and what equipment you need. Some reloading kits like RCBS put together had CD's in them that would help a lot also. That will give you the basic information about what to do to assemble the componants. Lyman's excellant Cast Bullet Manuals will also be good information on casting. If you can't find these for sale at a good price, try the local library. Some have all the books I mentioned and once you read them you may not want all of them for your own. Anyway that gets you over the hurtle of not having anyone you know to teach you. Once you know the tools you need you can look around for old farts like me that get too old to do it any more and are selling all their stuff. Gun clubs and ranges are a good source for this kind of search. A lot of good used equipment is better than can be found today. You do not need to even assemble all the tools from the same company. I use what suits my reloading needs, not what is in fashion or popular. When you are proficient in reloading, casting, and shooting your loads. You will be able to answer these questions yourself. You would not be able to start a business untill you had reached that point anyway so you will have lost no time in the journey. If you want to go into making bullets or ammo at that time you seem capable of making that decision for yourself.