Rimmed 9MM for revolver??

[grampa243]

the wife is getting a taurus model 905 9MM revolver for a carry gun.

while looking at reviews of this gun I ran across a thread on one of the forums i only read when it comes up on Google.

one of the guys was trimming down 38 spec. and 38 s&w then sizing them with 9mm dies and loading them with 9mm data.

the reasoning was that it would ad ejection without the moon clips.

anyone here have input on the subject??

[DeanWinchester]

.38 special is a good bit smaller at the base. I wouldn't feel comfortable with it. About .012 difference. Even if they would fire form, how would you center them in the chamber?
Google 9mm Federal.

[texassako]

You are trying to recreate the 9mm Federal Rimmed, basically. The .38 S&W brass would be your best bet if it is sturdy enough for the higher pressure 9mm loads. It should be about the same base diameter as the 9mm.

[dbosman]

Here is a thread from - here. See post #8 for specific details.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?181160-9mm-rimmed-advise-please

[Outpost75]

9mm Federal was a dog... If you can find a 9mm revolver which uses moon clips,you are better off. The S&W J-frame 942s has misfire issues from light strikes and are not suffciently reliable for carry. Ruger SP101 in 9mm had extraction issues, S&W 647/947 had extraction issues.

If you want a revolver, stick to.38 Spl. in a sturdy revolver that can handle an unlimited diet of+P or +P+

[MtGun44]

Been done, as said, Fed 9mm. The problem was that this hot round would fit
a .38 S&W chamber and there are lots of old guns out there that will not stand
that pressure, so dropped quickly by Fed. You'd be in the same place.

The advantage to the moon clips is the ultra fast reload.

Bill

[Bob in Revelstoke]

Have a look at Charter Arms. They make a 9m revolver that does not use use moon clips. Made in USA.

[bhn22]

9mm Federal ammo is also more expensive than buying the guns! I once saw four boxes on 9mm Federal that came with a free Charter Arms Pitbull. I don't think 38 S&W brass will be a great idea because It's only made for use at around 11,000 CUP, while 9mm operates at over 30,000 CUP. I had a S&W 940, and got rid of it because of the firing pin strike issue, which I tracked down to the springiness of the moon clips. If they get a bend in them in your pocket, you could get a light firing pin strike, or they'd bind the cylinder a bit, causing erratic trigger pulls. Maybe moon clips are sturdier nowdays. Rugers SP101 moonclips were skeletonized, and in my opinion, the worst of the bunch. I really wanted to like that revolver.

[zxcvbob]

Either cut-down .38 Special brass or .38 S&W brass should work, but probably not both. The big difference is the rim thickness. 38 S&W has thinner rims, and the difference is significant (I found that out when trying to use cut .38 Special brass in a Webly and a Colt PP)

The strength of the brass doesn't matter in a revolver.

[bhn22]

The big different between them is the case body diameter. 38 S&W is larger than 38 Spl. 9mm is even bigger. 38 S&W is .386, 38 Spl is .379, and 9mm is .391. 38 Super cases show .384 too, and are semi-rimmed. Hmmm...

[Combat Diver]

You can fire .38 Super in a .357 mag chamber as you just noticed it is semi rimmed. At least the two rounds I tried in Germany worked thru my Coonan.


CD

[bhn22]

At one time I got into a big discussion on the 'net about 38 Super loads in 357 cases. As you mentioned, you can simply drop 38 Supers in a 357 mag and blaze away. However, the 38 Super is now rated with higher pressures than the 357 magnum. Technically, it's not considered safe to fire the Super in a 357 mag revolver. I'd like to offer special thanks to the companies making lightweight 357 mags for prevailing upon SAAMI to derate the 357 so lighter guns could be made. This practice has to have reduced the warranty repairs on guns like S&W K frames, which were never designed for such a cartridge in the first place.

[Multigunner]

The main reason the .38 Super and .38 Auto before it were not safe to fire in the .38 Special cylinder (haven't heard of anyone using them in a .357) was because the bullet would bump up in the longer chamber forming a momentary plug.

Oddly enough older revolvers with .38 Long chambers could often handle these and even .357 cartridges because of the lack of any choking down at the chamber mouth. Enough gas escaped around a .357-8 bullet that full chamber pressure was not achieved. Not a recommended or safe practice, but something known to have worked at times.

They said when the 9MM Federal came out that a similar effect allowed occasional firing of this cartridge in .38 S&W chambers, the broader chamber mouth and larger bore diameter letting out much of the gas,but I would not bet on it being safe.

Years ago a revolver with generic chamber allowing use of many 9mm and .38-.357 cartridges was marketed. The chambers were gently straight tapered.

[grampa243]

if I did try this it would only be for target ammo.. /curiosity.

I hate to waste brass that would go in a GP100

[bhn22]

No. SAAMI maximum avg. pressure specs for 38 Super are 36,500 PSI. 357 Magnum is 35,000 PSI. 38 SPL Is 17,000, 9mm Luger is 35,000.

According to SAAMI, you should not fire 38 Super in 357 Magnums.

[sandman228]

I realize it would be way to big and heavy for a ccw but ive got a ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum convertible that comes with the 9mm cylinder and it don't use moon clips.

[Tackleberry41]

I don't think he was saying load 38 super ammo in a 357, but use the load data.

[Multigunner]

More to the point would a semi-rimmed .38 Super Auto case trimmed to 9X19 length make a suitable case for the 9mm revolvers?
Would the rim be thick enough?
Would the rim be of large enough diameter that it would extract easily without the extractor slipping past the semi rim?
Would it be necessary to inside ream the case mouth?

[scattershot]

Back to the original question, just use the moon clips and be happy, or buy a .38 revolver to begin with.

[grampa243]

More to the point would a semi-rimmed .38 Super Auto case trimmed to 9X19 length make a suitable case for the 9mm revolvers?
Would the rim be thick enough?
Would the rim be of large enough diameter that it would extract easily without the extractor slipping past the semi rim?
Would it be necessary to inside ream the case mouth?

i have some 38 super brass picked up at the range.. might have to check this out :)

[Outpost75]

I realize it would be way to big and heavy for a ccw but ive got a ruger Blackhawk 357 magnum convertible that comes with the 9mm cylinder and it don't use moon clips.

Have you ever cast or slugged the chamber throats in your 9mm cylinder? Just curious. My understanding is that the throats were made intentionally tight (.354-.355) to provide best accuracy with jacketed 9mm ammo, and that the cylinder throats on the 9mm cylinder are actually smaller than barrel groove diameter (.357+/-). The owner's manual from Ruger says that lead bullets should not be used in the 9mm cylinder, because rings of lead will be shaved off the bullet base as it exits the case mouth, interfering with proper headspace. This has been my experience as well.

On my .45 ACP Ruger convertible I was able to improve accuracy with cast bullets significantly by lapping the entrances to the ball seats of the .45 ACP chambers, by lapping them with 600 grit paste on a piece of .30-'06 brass. This simply broke the wire edge at the front of the chamber where the case mouth rests and provided a slight chamfer so that the shoulders of H&G68 wadcutters would not impinge against the ball seat entrance.

You can do the same thing on the 9mm cylinder by taking .223 Remington brass and necking the front end in a 7.62x25 TOK sizing die, then using the Tokarev shoulder to lightly lap the ball seat entrance ahead of the stop shoulders of the 9mm chamber. This reduces the tendency to shave lead bullets and lets you use cast in these guns with satisfactory results.

[grampa243]

started the project
97233
made a jig for ruff cutting the cases with a hack saw.
97234
then trimming down with a foster case trimmer
97235
here is a look at the tops. 38spec.; hack sawed; final trim; and 9mm.

in a week or so i can size and load some :)

[Comrade Mike]

This ought to be interesting. I'll be watching! :D

[beagle]

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByFireArm/Cast%20in%20the%209mm%20Blackhawk.pdf

I tried it years ago and here's the article. Several members on here shoot the "9mm Special". It worked well in my Blackhawk 9mm convertible but as I had so darn much 9mm once fired brass I stopped doing it but it can be done and works./beagle

[grampa243]

thanks for the link Beagle.. so good info

[grampa243]

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByFireArm/Cast%20in%20the%209mm%20Blackhawk.pdf

I tried it years ago and here's the article. Several members on here shoot the "9mm Special". It worked well in my Blackhawk 9mm convertible but as I had so darn much 9mm once fired brass I stopped doing it but it can be done and works./beagle

i'm wondering about case life of the ''9mm special''.

i was talking about making this brass with my gunsmith.(he is a caster and reloader but has not done much with wildcats or cast forming.) he was worried about the case splitting at the web do to the size different in size (9mm .391) (38 spec .379) at the base of the shell.


p.s. i ordered the shell plate for 38/357. hope to start loading next week.

[grampa243]

got to load some of my rimmed brass. looks like they will work it 38spec. speed loaders.
99620

99621

[Geraldo]

The advantage to the moon clips is the ultra fast reload.

Bill

Unless it's ultra slow...ammo has to be tested. My 940 would eject a clip of Federal +P+, but CorBon required a lot of work. FWIW, the 940 fired loose rounds fine, but obviously wouldn't eject them. As a backup to a 9mm semiauto my last ditch plan was to fire the ammo in the moon clip, then if necessary/possible to load single rounds from a magazine, then, well, it'd be over one way or the other.

[grampa243]

well i got out and test fired 26 rounds. then i noticed it is leading bad right after the forcing cone.

no lead in the chamber/cylinder throats. and clean at the muzzle.

but the rifling is full after the cone.