Pedersoli 1858 enfield 2 band load

[chickenmcnasty]

Does anyone have experience with loads for this rifle? It is a .58 and has a 1:48 twist. I'm considering this rifle for taking deer out to 200 yards and I'm unsure if this would be a good shooter for round ball and/or minie ball. Also wondering if minie is readily available for people like me that have no experience in casting. If not, what would it take to cast/size for this rifle?
Thank you very much for your time.

[BruceB]

You are asking an awful lot of a .58 rifled musket if you intend to CLEANLY kill deer at 200 yards. The trajectory of the 500-grain Minie' bullet is very poor indeed over that distance, although the energy is certainly sufficient for the task.

I've killed barren-Ground caribou with a .58 Parker-Hale musket, and it killed cleanly....but I kept the range to 100 yards or less. If you scale down your expectations a tad, the rifle and that 500-grain bullet at 1100-1300 fps will certainly do the job. It will also kill animals much larger than deer, but that wasn't the question...

[BruceB]

With regard to casting, it's simple for these rifles. I would forget the round ball and get either a LEE Minie' mould, or the Lyman 575213. The Minie' bullets should nOT need sizing and may be hand-lubricated with a good nlackpowder lube.

Get a SMALL cast-iron skillet and some stick-on wheelweights or lead sheeting. Bend the 'bowl' of an an old tablespoon to a suitable trough shape, and put a 90-degree bend at the end of the handle. hold it with a small set of vise-grips, and start casting! (Or, just buy a LEE ladle!) You will soon pick it up.... the biggest problem will probably be getting bullets without voids in the hollow base. Use LOTS of heat!

[chickenmcnasty]

You are asking an awful lot of a .58 rifled musket if you intend to CLEANLY kill deer at 200 yards. The trajectory of the 500-grain Minie' bullet is very poor indeed over that distance, although the energy is certainly sufficient for the task.

I've killed barren-Ground caribou with a .58 Parker-Hale musket, and it killed cleanly....but I kept the range to 100 yards or less. If you scale down your expectations a tad, the rifle and that 500-grain bullet at 1100-1300 fps will certainly do the job. It will also kill animals much larger than deer, but that wasn't the question...

Is there another BP muzzleloader rifle that you feel is better suited to the task?

[Outpost75]

I used to have an original W.J. Jeffery 2-band artillery rifle which had 5-groove Enfield type rifling and I killdd alot of game witb it using a .577" ball cast 1:40 tin lead with 0.012" patch of "pocket drill" Muslin, lubricated with Bag Balm, which is alanolin-based salve. Charge was 100 grains of 2Fg with RWS cap. Shot to the original sights and gave 4-5" groups at 100 yards. It would shoot through a cow elk broadside. Ball fit was very tight and required useof mallet and short starter to get it into the muzzle. Heavy iron ramrod did the rest of tbe job. Spit patch wipe between shots.

[BruceB]

Is there another BP muzzleloader rifle that you feel is better suited to the task?

A self-imposed limit of 100 (estimated) yards should suffice to make your .58 a very effective hunting rifle.

The difficulty lies in the high trajectory. I might even stretch the zeroing distance to 125 yards, but the impact at 60 yards would be rather high....several inches at least. The best bet is to get CLOSE.....amaybe that's why it's called "hunting"?

Is this rifle intended to be used in a muzzle-loader season?

There is no doubt about the effectiveness, as I said earlier. The question lies in the ability of the shooter to calculate that looping trajectory. I do believe 200 yards is out of sure-kill range.

I really can't think of anything more effective, unless it's one of the Savage smokeless-powder front-loaders. Unfortunately, I think they've been discontinued. The Minie' rifles really do hit hard...when we can do the required calculations to hit correctly.

If we decide to hunt with a muzzle-loader, it's very much a case of having to accept the limitations of the earlier technology.

[chickenmcnasty]

It's more a matter of replacing my center fire. I love my other muzzleloaders, but the sights seem to be unacceptable for the longer yardages. I routinely hit minute of Bambi at 200 yards with the buckhorn sights on my .30-30 so adjusting for bullet drop is not an issue. Would looking at a .54 be better to produce a lot flatter trajectory for the task at hand?
If so, which twist/projectile would produce the best results?

[Nobade]

Another thing to keep in mind is wind. I routinely shoot my P-H Enfield to 300 yards at hanging steel, so am very familiar with wind drift. At 200 yards, a wind so light you can't hardly feel it will move that minie' bullet a foot easily. Missing a deer's vitals by a foot will either mean a clean miss or a gut shot deer. As Bruce B says, keep it under 100 yards and it is no problem to make a sure kill. But pushing it to 200 is not advisable.

Now, what muzzle loader to use at 200 yards? Well, an Enfield Volunteer or Whitworth would certainly work. Or any normal sidelock or inline firing a proper long for caliber paper patched bullet. My own Gonic 45 caliber or Ruger 77/50 50 caliber inlines can easily hold 2 MOA with long bullets to as far as you care to shoot them. Repeated hits on steel at 500M are not a problem. Pretty much duplicates a caseless 45-90 or 50-110. Read Idahoron's posts here for more info and great pictures on how this works. But a rifled musket, while great for war since you can reload it so fast, is not what you want as a long range hunting arm. Those minie's that shoot into the same hole at 50 yards are hard pressed to hold 8 MOA at 200 yards. They just don't have the proper ballistic shape to do it compared to long sleek bullets.

-Nobade

[chickenmcnasty]

Thanks for the great info so far. I feel I should stop and explain that we hunt an open plains area of Ks where most deer are killed around the 200 yd mark. I have a .50 investarms hawken, but the sights are horrible and there is no way I would dream of anything past 100 yds with that rifle.
I'm starting to see in studying the ballistics of rb and minie that it sure would be a long drop to calculate for. I'm also starting to understand the effect of wind at that distance and that is pretty ugly. This may be a pipe dream, I'm just so tired of killing deer with my cf and want more of a challenge.
I'm thinking I may look at getting a 58 gpr or similar rifle and going at it that way. I know the enfield would require some sight work for shorter ranges and may present it's own issues.
I thought the minie might hold promise of better trajectory, but if appears I may be mistaken. With that being said, the gpr and limiting to closer ranges may be the best avenue.
Any thoughts?

[fouronesix]

Think about changing the paradigm. Instead of hunting for a 200 yard shot with a scoped 270 bolt gun that operates easily and effectively at 200, think about hunting for a 75 yard shot with a traditional muzzleloader where it operates easily and effectively at 75.

[Nobade]

If you get a GPR, pay attention to the twist rate. They make them two ways - 1:66 for PRB and 1:28 or so for bullets. A 50 cal. fast twist percussion one shooting good paper patched bullets and wearing a good peep sight would not be any big deal to shoot a deer at 200 yds. But again, the above advise is even better if you can manage it.

I don't know about the 58 cal ones - a 58 cal PRB is still a ball and has lousy ballistics far out. And a 58 cal. bullet is maybe a bit more recoil than most folks care to experience if you get it going very fast. Inside 100 yds, it would be sure good medicine with a PRB though!

-Nobade

[Southron]

Back in 1862 the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia ran an exhaustive series of tests to determine which Rifles and Rifle-Muskets were the "Most Accurate." What was discovered was that while the average rifle-musket was accurate out to approximately 500 yards, the Enfield Naval Rifles were accurate out to 900/1000 yards. The proviso was that they had to use British made ammunition. The Confederacy imported a tremendous amount of .577 Enfield ammo from England made by Eley.

Back in England, members of the British NRA regularly competed in rifle matches with members of the British army. ANY COMPETITOR USING EITHER A NAVAL RIFLE OR AN ARMY SHORT RIFLE AUTOMATICALLY HAD 10% DEDUCTED FROM HIS FINAL SCORE BECAUSE THE SHORT RIFLES WERE ACKNOWLEDGED TO BE SO MUCH MORE ACCURATE THAN THE REGULAR P-53 ENFIELDS.

Hence, the Naval rifle and its Enfield Army Short Rifle (which had an identical barrel) with its "Magic" 1 in 48 inch Twist became the arm issued to the men of the Sharpshooter Battalions of the Army of Northern Virginia.

These Sharpshooters were trained in range estimation and marksmanship. In many ways they served as the "Shock Troops" of the Confederacy. They also took a tremendous toll of Yankee soldiers at long ranges out to 800 yards due to their shooting skills.

Shooting patched round balls from Minie Rifles is backwards. For one thing, Minie Rifles have SHALLOW GROOVES that make them totally unsuitable for shooting PBR's.

Pedersoli has a reputation for making some very ACCURATE BARRELS. Here is what you need to do to get the best in accuracy out of your Pedersoli Enfield Naval Rifle:

1. Work on the lock to get the trigger pull down to 3 pounds. Here is a tutorial on how to do that-

http://www.nwtskirmisher.com/useful-locks.shtml

While you are at that site, also check out the tutorial on casting lead bullets.

2. Glass Bed the Breech or your Pedersoli. All I can say is that makes one heck of a difference when it comes to accuracy! Always shoot with your TANG SCREW TIGHT.

3. CAST YOUR MINIE BALLS OUT OF PURE LEAD ONLY. Hard lead will not work in Minie Rifles period.

One of the BEST Moulds to use is this one:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/609127/lyman-1-cavity-minie-ball-bullet-mold-575213ph-58-caliber-575-diameter-566-grain-parker-hale-style

Again, cast your Minie BAlls out of PURE SOFT LEAD. No other lead will do.

4. Weigh all of your Minie Balls. The light ones go back into the pot because they have hidden air voids in them. If you keep a record of the weights of your Minie Balls, you will get a "Bell Shaped Curve."

YOU WANT TO SEPARATE YOUR MINIE BALLS INTO PLUS OR MINUS 1 GRAIN "LOTS." The ones you get closest to 500 Grains are your Match/Hunting Bullets.

5. Size your Minie Balls 2 Thou of an Inch UNDER BORE DIAMETER. This is very, very important.
Any competent machinist with a lathe can make you a Sizing Die and Ram you can use on a regular handloader's press. You size your Minies by placing them on the ram and pushing them thru the die.

6. Sighting your rifle in-

Order one of those high, DOVETAILED front sights from S & S Firearms. Find a competent gunsmith with a milling machine and have him install it in the place of the factory front sight. You adjust the "Windage" by tapping the front sight back and forth in its dovetail until the windage is "zeroed."

http://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=58S148A&cat=87

Hint: When adjusting the Front Sight, you have to tap it in the Opposite Direction to move your point of impact on the face of the target.

So, there you have it.

Oh Yes...if you have further questions about your Enfield, check out this BB.

http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/forumdisplay.php/8-Civil-War-Small-Arms

[HARRYMPOPE]

My PH 1858 has a progressive depth rifling( tighter the muzzle) I am not sure if the Pedersoli's have this detail. it shoots balls OK but the 58560 PH .574 dia minie' mold will shoot 2-3 moa at 100 quite often.At 200 yards 4-5 MOA.I cast of pure lead but have never weight sorted them and never will.
A 1g weigh variation in a 500-560g bullet is such a small amount you are wasting your time sorting(IMHO) its more important to get a good casting style and rhythm to keep the HB plug hot and the sprue puddle large enough to not suck in a void on the nose.
With that my culls still shoot 4" at 100.

[nhrifle]

An effective killing machine, of that there is no doubt. Look at the historical records of the civil war for proof. As I recall (been awhile, so don't hold me to it) there were accounts of successful hits with .58 cal Minie Balls at distances of around 500 yards, but I would have to attribute those to either exceptional marksmanship and range estimation, or just flat out luck. The trajectory warnings posted above are valid. I have a reproduction Enfield that will connect at 200 yards and I have no reason to think that farther ranges are a possibility. My shooting was at stationary targets with plenty of shots to dial in the elevation and Kentucky windage. On the shots that missed and hit the berm at 250 yards, bullet splash was much lower than point of aim by maybe a foot or so. Best shooting was done with conicals as my rifle won't group roundballs worth a darn beyond 50 yards. As to the effectiveness on deer, with proper shot placement it will knock them flat, dead right there. A friend has an original 1863 Springfield which is basically the same rifle more or less. He connected with a nice buck in his back yard that had been eating his corn and it simply flopped onto its side and didn't move again.