How fast do you push your .38 Special Wadcutters?

[101VooDoo]

Just bought my first .38 Wadcutter mold, a Lyman 358495 4 banger. Should be here today. :)

Read a lot of posts, there seems to be a ton of different loads running from the 750's to 1000+.

I know there's a lot of variables; alloy, 148 vs 160gn, 25 vs 50 yards, targets, tin cans or varmints, etc. Just asking what your favorite/standard wadcutter load chrono's at. If you'd like to list your load, what you use it for and why you picked it, that'd be great too.

I plan on using 50/50 COWW/SOWW with 2% tin, either Clays or Titegroup for targets/plinking to 50yds. Figure 850 fps or so +/- dependent on best accuracy. My Saeco 382 loads chrono at 860 and hope to get the sights close to that POI.

Jim

[Shooter6br]

Article on Castpics 143 g WC with 5.3 Unique 1080 fps http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.38%20Special.pdf

[firefly1957]

In 38 i keep them in the 800 to 900 f/s range in 2001 when ii was practicing before taking my CPL class i loaded 357 mag cases with wad cutters to around 1000 f/s they were tack drivers at 25 yds accurate at 50 yds and some were around 75 yards started to yaw at 100 yards they could be 6 feet from point of aim. I just set the progressive press to load the Lyman wadcutter with 3.8 grains of Red Dot i have them powder coated instead of lubed last batch were tack drivers loaded with Green Dot.

[paul h]

I load wadcutters over various powders and to different velocities. That's partly due to the fact I have some older powders I'm trying to use up. My approach to loading any cast bullet is to get top accuracy out of the gun I'm loading for. So I'd let your gun tell you what load it prefers.

I've shot wadcutters well past 100 yds and have found them to be reasonably accurate for such use when plinking. I even took some rediculously long shots just to see if I could kick up some water in a distant pond and sure enough I was able to do so once I figured out the elevation.

[ruizhernandeztrust]

The last batch of bullets I reloaded was 148 grains wadcutters with a velocity of 682 fps average @ 10' from the muzzle. Excellent plinking load with almost no recoil using my ruger GP100 6". I love this load. :)

[opos]

Arthritic old guy...shoot a GP100 among other guns and really like Trail Boss powder with a Missouri "cowboy" 125 grain boolit with a 12 hardness....just sort of lopes along...really accurate and very very minor leading if any at all...soft and gentle on the old hands for a day at the range.

[dragon813gt]

Right around 850fps. It's a hollow base design and I have no desire to blow the skirt off.

[osteodoc08]

800-850 of I were gonna load a wadcutter. Same velocity I load my SWC. Easy on me and the gun. Minimal powder. Loads of fun.

[bhn22]

It's been a while since I've reposted this.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/75f11fe4e235da7c69cabf94daa7dbd9-932.html

I too cast my own DEWC, so I don't have any real velocity restrictions.

[rintinglen]

Factory stuff runs allegedly 770 fps, though When I chronographed some Federals I had it was more like 690 from a 4 inch M-66. I load mine low. I have shot many, many thousands loaded with 2.8 grains of Red Dot, along 2.7 grains of Bullseye, those don't get over 750 fps. I have loaded the 358-432 over 4.0 grains of Red Dot, seated out to crimp in the crimp groove. Those move out over 900 fps

[Char-Gar]

It's been a while since I've reposted this.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/75f11fe4e235da7c69cabf94daa7dbd9-932.html

I too cast my own DEWC, so I don't have any real velocity restrictions.

Some years back, Terry Murback wrote an article on full charge wadcutters in the 38 Special and 357 Magnum. This got me started with the effort. A couple of years back, Terry told me that he always keep coming back to the charge of 3.5/Bulleye for this purpose (38 Special) as it did the best over and over again. I don't think it surprising that Ed Harris came to the same conclusion. I follow suit and do the same.

Thanks for the link, it is a good one.

[starnbar]

I use 3.0 grs bullseye in the 38 148gr wadcutters and 3.9 grs bullseye in the 45acp 200gr lwc. They both give excellent results at 25 yds.

[seaboltm]

2.7 grains of Bullseye under a Lee 148 WC TL out of WW WC gives me 717 fps in a Ruger BH 6", 831 fps in a 24" Rossi, and 746 fps in an 8" Contender. Standard deviation in all 3 guns is 20 fps or less. The Contender is scoped and at 25 yards shoots these into 1 ragged hole. Deadly on any small critters to be sure. I will likely move the next batch up to an even 3 grains of Bullseye.

[LowPE]

McGivern shot a full power 38 wadcutter often one that was loaded on the range. I was always curious at what the load was, but was never able to find it. I do have his book...

[fouronesix]

Not very fast. If I want to shoot something faster I shoot a different bullet or I shoot a 357.

[lancem]

Only fast enough to be super accurate, it's a target load, accuracy not power is what it's about..

[Wayne Dobbs]

I shoot the 3.5 BE/148 DEWC combination for all WC shooting now. I know it's close to sacrilege, but I could use that load for all my .38 Special revolver shooting chores if that was necessary.

[Char-Gar]

I shoot the 3.5 BE/148 DEWC combination for all WC shooting now. I know it's close to sacrilege, but I could use that load for all my .38 Special revolver shooting chores if that was necessary.

Not a sacrilege at all, just good sense and experience. More that a few "old 38 hands" have come to the same conclusion.

[Char-Gar]

A couple of thought re the 38 Special wadcutter.

The wadcutter came into being not because it was super accurate, but because it cut clean holes in the paper target. A clean hole was needed for good scoring and match winning.

A good RN is fully as accurate is not more so than any wadcutter every made, but makes ragged holes in paper if that matters. On game, it works well for full grown bull frogs, but above that there are better bullet shapes to employ. Bunnies are probably OK, but I would use a WC or SWC.

So, if a fellow does not have the need to punch clean holes in paper, why does he even want a wadcutter? The answer is "meplat", the flat end does as much damage to tissue as can be had in a cast 38 Special bullet. Therefore push it as fast as the standard pressures will allow without pushing the red line and doing something really stupid.

A full snort wadcutter in either the 38 Special case or the 357 Magnum case is very effective on living flesh, but does not carry the maximum accuracy as far as a semi-wadcutter, hence the purpose for the SWC.

Life and pistol shooting is full of compromises, so a fellow needs to know what he want his sixgun and load to do and be governed by that knowledge. There is a place for RN, WC and SWC in sixgun shooting, but those places are different. There may be some overlap in use, but the operative word is "some".

[Grump]

Haven't loaded my own, but factory reloads out of a 4-inch go maybe 720 fps and they make our big jackrabbits fall over at 25-40 yards like you flipped a switch on the Energizer Bunny. FLOP!

[Char-Gar]

Now the hollow base wadcutter. Target shooters wanted a little recoil as possible consistent with winning scores. We all do out best with less recoil, so how do they get the best accuracy out of powder puff loads in the 38 Special. The answer was the hollow base wadcutter.

The hollow base shove the center of gravity forward and things tend to fly true that way. Think of a shuttle cock and you will get the idea. The notion was not to allow the skirt to expand and fill the cylinder throats as some folks posit.

The HBWC is a real special needs child. This is where the wadcutter brass is almost necessary, as the long parallel sides of the base gives room for the longer HBWC to fit without hitting the taper toward the bottom of the case and crushing the fragile skirt. An extra long expander really helps in this regard.

I see no purpose for HBWCs, off the paper target range, but for that purpose they really shine. Depending on design, push one too fast and you run the danger of blowing off the skirt, leaving a barrel obstruction behind for the next bullet to encounter.

[Piedmont]

The hollow base shove the center of gravity forward and things tend to fly true that way. Think of a shuttle cock and you will get the idea. The notion was not to allow the skirt to expand and fill the cylinder throats as some folks posit.


There is a post right right now on this board with a picture of a pulled swaged 158 gr. SWC hollowpoint from the famous FBI load. It has a hollowbase.
Is that to make it 'fly like a shuttlecock'? I don't think so. Roundnose swaged bullets in most handgun calibers have a hollow or cupped base. Is it to make them fly like a shuttlecock? I don't think so. The original factory BP .45-70 400 gr. loads had a slightly cupped base that allowed them to obturate. The 500 gr. load was a flatbase because the extra 100 grains of resistance allowed it to bump up without needing that cup. It had nothing to do with the center of gravity.

[2shot]

Piedmont you are comparing apples to oranges. The hollow base on the bullets you mention looks nothing like the 38 cal 148 grain HBWC's from Speer, Hornady, Remington or any other HBWC. The examples you give are more of a cupped base than a hollow base. Char-Gar is correct with the shuttlecock statement. The HBWC does obturate but the weight is forward (unlike the examples you give) and this does tend to make it fly like a shuttlecock.


2shot

[Piedmont]

The examples you give are more of a cupped base than a hollow base. Char-Gar is correct with the shuttlecock statement. The HBWC does obturate but the weight is forward (unlike the examples you give) and this does tend to make it fly like a shuttlecock.


2shot

Some of the examples given are cupped, some are not. (For example, one of the traditional conical .45 factory loads is a cup base and the other is a true hollowbase, speaking of Rem. and Win. here.) My point is they all are made to obturate and fit a variety of guns and the .38 hollow base wadcutter does the same thing. Chargar is saying that is not why it is made that way. The proof of the pudding is do they obturate or not? If they are made that way just to shuttlecock then the hole in the base would be too small to obturate or the alloy too hard to obturate. The manufacturers are careful of design and hardness when they do all the set up and testing on a particular load.

[catboat]

Depends on whether it is a flat base (solid base), or a hollow base wadcutter (hbwc). I get better accuracy from my S&W model 14's ("k38") running home cast solid base wadcutters (Lee 358148 tumble lube, and H&G mold 50) at 3.5 grains of Bullseye. I don't have a chrono, so I'm guessing I'm in the 800-825 fps range with that load.

If I load a 148 grain hbwc, I get best accuracy in the 2.5-2.7 grain range of Bullseye. I'm guessing I'm in the 675 - 700+ fps range with those loads. HBWC will seal the bore at lower pressure due to its skirt. They (hbwc) will also blow out their skirt if pushed at higher pressure/velocity ( that velocity varies depending on the hollow base skirt design and alloy of the bullet), therefore, HBWC definitely require to be approached differently than a solid base wadcutter. HBWC= lower velocities.

A flat/solid base wadcutter can be stepped to to literally as fast as pressures will allow (depending on alloy/hardness), and whatever meets your criteria for accuracy, "power", or use. I feel solid base wadcutters are underappreciated, as they don't have to be loaded to "weany" target levels. I find it interesting that there is a great deal written of the stopping power/tissue upset of WFN (wide flat nose) bullet designs over SWC designs. Nothing is more WFN that a flat base wadcutter.

Load them to whatever you goals are, within obvious safety levels, and go from there. A solid base wadcutter is a very versatile, accurate bullet which can loaded slow, medium or fast. If anyone is casting for a 38 special, a good 140-150 grain wadcutter mold should be in his/her inventory.

[StrawHat]

I do not own or have access to a chronograph. I have two loads for the 150 grain DEWC, 2.8 grains of Bullseye and 3.6 grains of Bullseye. The lighter load is a bit more accurate but the heavy load is a good hunting load.

[77ruger]

38 wadcutter loads,#1 priority should be rated in grains of accuracy..

[SawmillJack]

Arthritic old guy...shoot a GP100 among other guns and really like Trail Boss powder with a Missouri "cowboy" 125 grain boolit with a 12 hardness....just sort of lopes along...really accurate and very very minor leading if any at all...soft and gentle on the old hands for a day at the range.

Wow there's someone else that doesn't like having their fingers ache all night? I thought I was the only one. I could use a tip like that for .44 spcl out of my target Bulldog.

[Rangefinder]

Guess I should have looked before voting. My 356402 runs about 975. But I keep the wc 's down around 750.

[Char-Gar]

There is a post right right now on this board with a picture of a pulled swaged 158 gr. SWC hollowpoint from the famous FBI load. It has a hollowbase.
Is that to make it 'fly like a shuttlecock'? I don't think so. Roundnose swaged bullets in most handgun calibers have a hollow or cupped base. Is it to make them fly like a shuttlecock? I don't think so. The original factory BP .45-70 400 gr. loads had a slightly cupped base that allowed them to obturate. The 500 gr. load was a flatbase because the extra 100 grains of resistance allowed it to bump up without needing that cup. It had nothing to do with the center of gravity.

My comments were about the 38 caliber hollow base wadcutter designed and used for paper target shooting at low velocity (675 +- 25 fps). I made no reference to hollow based bullets in other caliber and other firearms. I didn't mention the 58 caliber Minie ball either. Not all hollow bases are alike nor do they all have the same purpose.

[ironhead7544]

Since the factory 38 Spl. wadcutters are loaded to about 1/2 the pressure of a standard 158 gr lead load, the hollow base is probably made to take the rifling better.

I used WW231 for wadcutters when I was loading them. Just work up from the start load until you get the accuracy you want. Dont go over the MAX of course.

[Comrade Mike]

I shoot the Hornady hbwc's out of my 4 inch model 10 I use 3.2 grns of Win231. Out of my two inch model 36 this load works wells but 3.5 grains will edge it out slightly. I use the 3.2 grain load more often than not to save powder and because 3.5 out of the M10 is close to that 850 fps cap.

[Char-Gar]

[QUOTE=catboat;2526. I feel solid base wadcutters are underappreciated, as they don't have to be loaded to "weany" target levels. I find it interesting that there is a great deal written of the stopping power/tissue upset of WFN (wide flat nose) bullet designs over SWC designs. Nothing is more WFN that a flat base wadcutter.

Load them to whatever you goals are, within obvious safety levels, and go from there. A solid base wadcutter is a very versatile, accurate bullet which can loaded slow, medium or fast. If anyone is casting for a 38 special, a good 140-150 grain wadcutter mold should be in his/her inventory.[/QUOTE]

Amen and Amen! I have never shot anybody with anything and hope I never do. But, I have shot critters and hold the opinion that the wadcutter is at least as effective as any other non-expanding bullet design on living flesh. Considerably more effective than most.

[fcvan]

Let's see, a .357 stoked with a boolit that has a .358 meplat sounds pretty much like a 35 Devastator!

[Outpost75]

It's been a while since I've reposted this.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/75f11fe4e235da7c69cabf94daa7dbd9-932.html

I too cast my own DEWC, so I don't have any real velocity restrictions.

The Ed Harris article hosted by Grant Cunningham is spot-on and agrees with my experience.

In a sturdy gun you can safely drive solid-based DEWCs over 1000 fps with excellent accuracy, but grouping deteriorates beyond 50 yards because a spin-stabilized right-cylinder becomes dynamically unstable.

In a faster twist and at higher velocity you can push the range envelope a little, but any wadcutter load in .38 Special, at any velocity from 600 to 1300 fps and in any rate of twist from ten inches to 32 inches, will be less accurate at 100 yards than any plain vanilla 158-gain lead roundnosed "cop bullet" of the M-Squad, Dragnet and Naked City TV era.

Over the years I've tried them all, firing various bullets and loads from heavy 1-1/4" cylindrical test barrels, shot off a concrete test pad with return-to-battery rest, having the best facilities your tax dollars could provide, with a virtually unlimited budget, and all the ammunition factories being anxious to please a big customer.

Go to the NTIS and access a copy BRL Report 1630, entitled "Aerodynamic Data for Small Arms Projectiles to Cal. .50" by Dr. Robert L. McCoy, PhD., Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Can you provide a link? Tried searching for the report on the NTIS site with no luck.

[Outpost75]

The old BRL reports are still stored on microfilm and many are not available online.

[bobthenailer]

I have pushed solid base wad cutters up to 1,400 fps in other calibers than 38 special with excellent accuracy @ 25 yards ( under a inch ), at 50 yards accuracy was dismal ! like 3 to 5 inches.

[TMenezes]

I load my Lee 148gr wadcutters in 38 Special with 3.3 gr of Tight Group. Very accurate, low recoil, and if I remember right Hodgdon claims that load moving right along in the mid 900fps range. I don't have a chrono so really don't know how fast or slow they are going.

I loaded up some 357 wadcutter loads with varying amounts of powder but haven't been able to shoot them yet so no comment about those.

I really like the huge meplate of wadcutters and in my opinion most people under rate their versatility. As far as their accuracy falling off around 50 yards or so I could care less as I use carbines or rifles at that point.

Some kind fellows here have sent me some samples of 44 and 45 cal wadcutters as I am having a hard time finding full weight wadcutter molds. My little one takes up most of my time but I am looking forward to trying them out soon :-)

[WRideout]

I don't know the actual velocity, but I load my 38 WC (35891 Lyman) with 3.8 gr Red Dot. It's funny but the Lyman manual shows you can go up to 4.1 gr RD, while the Lee manual shows that to be above the "never exceed" load.
Wayne

[TMenezes]

I don't know the actual velocity, but I load my 38 WC (35891 Lyman) with 3.8 gr Red Dot. It's funny but the Lyman manual shows you can go up to 4.1 gr RD, while the Lee manual shows that to be above the "never exceed" load.
Wayne

Yes I have noticed load manuels vary allot more on wadcutter loads than on other loads. I assumed it was because they were just going for low pressure target loads and weren't loading them up to full pressure. Which I am fine with for the most part.

Here's the rub, my wife is small and very recoil sensitive. She think 9mm in a full size handgun recoils too much. So I was looking at loading up 38 wadcutter for her personal defense. Lyman's data came in useful as it was more potent than most.

[rhead]

Yes I have noticed load manuels vary allot more on wadcutter loads than on other loads. I assumed it was because they were just going for low pressure target loads and weren't loading them up to full pressure. Which I am fine with for the most part.

Here's the rub, my wife is small and very recoil sensitive. She think 9mm in a full size handgun recoils too much. So I was looking at loading up 38 wadcutter for her personal defense. Lyman's data came in useful as it was more potent than most.


Does Lee differentiate between the hollow base and the solid base wadcutters? Many of the Lee customers are beginners. A lot of their loads run to the conservative side.

[RedHawk357Mag]

Rhead just looked in my Lee Second Edition for 38 Special and 357 Mag they do not specifically list the HBWC. Alliant Powder Catalog has loads for 38 Special HBWC. (Free from Website)

[44Vaquero]

rhead:

I think it would be safe to say Lee Manual's ignore the existence of HBWC's, for the simple reason that they do not make a mold for them. Nor do they mention them in their glossary of bullet types.

[TXGunNut]

Just ran across my load notes for PPC loads using a swaged 148gr swaged HBWC, velocity was 679fps for my open gun, took 720 fps to stabilize it in a stock S&W. My 158gr loads were zipping along at a blazing 740fps. PPC loads only need to be stable and accurate to 50 yds.

[Thomas Traddles]

RCBS 38-148WC over 5 grains of Red Dot in .357 cases for around 1050fps. These are my EDC rounds that I load in both a 4" GP100 and a 2.25" SP101.

[Dale53]

I shoot both the original H&G #251 dbl ended w/c and the original H&G #50 BB solid wadcutter in my various .38 Special and .357 revolvers. They are loaded a bit hotter than the old "normal" HBWC charge of 2.7 grs of Bullseye. My preference is 3.2 grs of Bullseye for target use (I will shoot several thousand of these this year). My preference for field use is 3.5 grs of Bullseye and I can testify that they do yeoman's work on edible small game. Instant stops without destroying more meat than necessary (point of impact IS important).

I shoot rabbits in the head if close and in the slats at longer distances. No real meat damage but they stop right there. If I were going to use the .38 Special in a handload for self defense, I would simply load up to maximum allowed and have at it. Ed Harris' article is spot on (as a feller or gal would expect considering his experience). He has another great article on target loads with the .38 Special wadcutters. It is excellent, also. Unfortunately, I don't have the link for this. Maybe someone else does?

I have had the privilege of using a Ransom Rest for a number of years and my personal experience tally's with his recommendations.

FWIW
Dale53

[Wayne Dobbs]

Here's a ton of Ed Harris material, including his article on the full power wadcutter:

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/backcreekdiary.htm

Enjoy!

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Like Dale 53 I use the H&G #251 and the #50 a great deal in my target guns namely the 52 and a couple of Smith 14's. The bullets for the 52 have to be seated flush to function, but work very well. I have worked with various Bullseye loads successfully, but for the 52, I settled on 2.6 grains of 700X and that has worked best for me. Never had a Ransom Rest or or Chrony which would have helped a lot, but sometimes we have to do without. LLS

[Petrol & Powder]

Back when I had access to a chronograph I recall measuring HB wadcutters at less than 800fps and they may have even been < 750. I wasn't casting in those days and those bullets were likely Speer HBWC. I never had any problems with those loads. The Speer HBWC is a great bullet if you don't cast. A friend of mine has a very old Colt that he likes to shoot at family gatherings but he doesn't want to stress the gun. I load low pressure HBWC cartridges for that gun that will reliably get the bullet out of the bore and to the target but I doubt those rounds are even going 750fps.
Now that I'm casting I use solid wadcutters but I find they do better when pushed a little harder but I no longer have a chronograph around.
Most of my 38 Special shooting is with SWC but I like having WC's available. Just another tool in the tool box.

[roverboy]

I don't shoot many wadcutters now but, I used to shoot a lot of Hornady hollow based with 4.0 gr. Herco. It shot awesome, with very good groups at 25 yards. I found out if you push hollow based wadcutters to fast they'll come apart in the bore. Freaks your shooting buddies out. Because it will sometimes leave two holes on target with one shot.

[ghh3rd]

A couple of friends from work met me at the range one day. I was using my .38 snub with 148 gr wadcutters over 2.7 gr of Bullseye. They were off to the side a little bit, with the sun at just the right angle... it shocked them to discover that they could see the boolit moving toward the target. I still get ribbed about that. Funny how people assume that no one can ever see a boolit in mid flight.

They were also surprised at how accurate those rounds were.

[David2011]

A friend taught me to load 148 gr WCs with 2.3 grains of Bullseye back when primers were well under a dollar/hundred. In a 6" .357 it was like shooting a .22lr. I think I prefer the more solid feel of 2.7 grains. We used to shoot at the numbers on the targets, when I was much younger. I think I need to cast a batch of WCs!

David

[EdS]

"Some years back, Terry Murback wrote an article on full charge wadcutters in the 38 Special and 357 Magnum. This got me started with the effort. A couple of years back, Terry told me that he always keep coming back to the charge of 3.5/Bulleye for this purpose (38 Special) as it did the best over and over again. I don't think it surprising that Ed Harris came to the same conclusion. I follow suit and do the same. "

I too think 3.5 gr of Bullseye is the ticket for "full power" .38 Spl wadcutters. But...since I have a jug of 700X and only a little Bullseye left, I've been loading 3.7-3.8 grains of 700X behind any of 4 wadcutter boolits for about 875 fps in my revolver. Excellent accuracy and should be very effective against groundhogs, etc. -Ed

[Shooter6br]

Ed Harris Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter Reloading, Ammunition, Hunting GrantCunningham.com (http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/75f11fe4e235da7c69cabf94daa7dbd9-932.html)

[35remington]

EdS, likely 3.8 grains of 700X is a bit Plus P with a wadcutter seated to the usual depth. Just thought you might like to know.

[Tar Heel]

135778

[40-82 hiker]

Soft SOWWs +2% tin, 2.7grs. BE, H&G #50, sized 0.359".

Very accurate load for me. Not sure about the velocity, though.

[Geezer in NH]

Rhead just looked in my Lee Second Edition for 38 Special and 357 Mag they do not specifically list the HBWC. Alliant Powder Catalog has loads for 38 Special HBWC. (Free from Website)Buy more manuals

[Geezer in NH]

My last 38 HBWC are loaded in 38 cases at recommended powder amounts but I screwed up. They end HB up. They work great for small game (always shot under 20 yards) They will work for 2 leg varmints further as they are bigger.)

Rabbits and such no diff from other WC bigger = coon fox, coyote nice expansion and penetration. Way better tan a 22lr or 32.

[Thomas Traddles]

Anyone have a recipe for shooting 148 grain hard cast DEWCs in .357 cases with 2400?

[bottomline]

I load .38 special pretty low, can barely see the powder - 1.7 - 2.0 grs. Titegroup, W231 and 700x. Velocity at 10' is 575fps (1.7 700x) for the slowest and 625fps on the high end (2.0 Titegroup).

My buddy's wife loves the super light ones and nicknamed them 'cream puffs' - like shooting .22's.

[Thomas Traddles]

I loaded an RCBS 38-148-WC over 10 and 10.5 grains of 2400 in starline brass and tested them out last week. The 10.5 grain load was very accurate from my 4 5/8" barrel NMBH. I don't have a chrony, but I am thinking that the velocity was between 1000 and 1050 fps. The cases were easily extracted and I saw no other pressure signs. I'm going to give it another try soon to make sure it was not a fluke. Generally, I load these bullets over 3.5 grains of Bullseye or Red Dot in .38 brass. These are "cream puff" loads in the NMBH. They give some stiff recoil in my LCR.

[454gene]

I have the M&P 358395 HBWC mold to feed a S&W 52. Since these bullets are loaded flush with the case mouth I assume it would be advantageous to use WC brass.
I have a lot of 38spcl. brass how do you tell if it is WC brass?

[40-82 hiker]

I have the M&P 358395 HBWC mold to feed a S&W 52. Since these bullets are loaded flush with the case mouth I assume it would be advantageous to use WC brass.
I have a lot of 38spcl. brass how do you tell if it is WC brass?

The .38spcl. WC brass will have a single distinctive cannelure in the middle of the case, or two cannelures spaced around the middle of the case. Yes, there is a true benefit if you are using real soft alloy, as I do (only soft SOWWs with 2% tin). Not sure of the benefit if you use hard lead.

[tazman]

I tried out shooting the light load with wadcutters. They were extremely pleasant to shoot. The only drawback I found was that they didn't hold groups beyond 20-25 feet in my guns. Probably has to do with the twist rate of my barrels.
I bumped up the powder charge a bit and got much tighter groups. I feel confident with the ammunition out to 25 yards now.

[jaysouth]

3.0 grs. Bullseye or 3 grs. Clays. Don't know the speed, both just work for plinking or more serious target work that I am capable of.

For many decades the standard bullseye combo was a 6" Model 14 Smith, a 148 HB wadcutter and 2.7 grs. Bullseye.

[greenwart]

Great thread sticky maybe? I just picked up an old Taurus model 82 made in 1994. The only other 38 special I have is a S&W 10-5 which is the safe queen. So I now have a 38 I can shoot. My go to cast bullet for 357mag is the 358477 SWC so the WC got relegated to the women and children category. I have a few hundred WC I had cast up at a friends house years ago and are now itching to try them for both target and general purpose loads. I will have to also revisit E. H. Harrison Cast Bullets. Which had numerous articles on 38 special. I wonder how much history and data that the NRA put into that book years ago that has been lost and/or forgotten. I my search for bigger. faster, newer, better I basically skipped over 38 special articles.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/CastBullets-s.pdf

[Char-Gar]

I am glad to see this thread alive and still kicking.

I will just add the following;

1. Like others I think the 38 wadcutter is a 50 to 60 yard deal with accuracy falling off after that.

2. I have pushed the SB wadcutter up to 1,100 fps in a 357 Magnum and accuracy held up just fine. I keep a mess of them loaded to this speed for use in my Smith Model 19 in the field.

3. Factory match/target loads are held to about 700 fps +- not because they are more accurate at that speed, but because of the light recoil which helps folks handle the revolver better in a match. A WC going several hundred fps faster is just as accuracy or perhaps a smidge better.

[Walkingwolf]

Bayou 138 WC at 1200fps in a GP100.

[mr surveyor]

Bayou 138 WC at 1200fps in a GP100.


another fan of Mr. Donnie's 138 gr bnwc's .... I load them for a Smith 36 and SP101, and run em fast (in the SP)

jd

[williamwaco]

3.5 gr Bulls Eye or 4.5 grains of Unique is the all time standard load for the .38 Special. with bullets of 148 to 160 grains.
Many years ago 2.7 grains was the favorite of the Bulls Eye target shooters.

I use the 148 grain wad cutter almost exclusively and this is what I have found.

2.7 grains will tear the paper and will not cut clean holes at 25 yards with an occasional oval shaped hole. An occasional complete tumble at 50.

3.0 grains will give good accuracy and round holes at both ranges. It will cut clean holes at 25 yards but will still tear the paper at 50 yards.

3.2 grains will give good accuracy and nice clean round holes at both distances. I get around 1" 6 shot groups at 25 yards and around 2 inch groups at 50 yards.
( That is with a scope. I can't see that good with my naked eye balls.)

[Hick]

148 grain wadcutter over 2.9 grains of 700X in my S&W Model 64, 4" barrel, gets me 692 fps. Very nice load that shoots well easily out to 50 yards.

[Good Cheer]

Three grains of Bullseye brought home a lot of rabbits in the Security Six.

[TenTea]

How fast do you push your .38 Special Wadcutters?



~ four hundred seventy seven miles per hour

700 foot/second = 477.272 727 27 mile/hour (mph)

[Sur-shot]

I do not load much in the way of wad cutters any more. Most times if I do load them, it is for teaching absolutely new shooters to handle a revolver. However, I actually prefer using the 158/162 SWC as it loads easier with a speed loader and can be loaded to comparable velocity and recoil.
Ed

[FergusonTO35]

I load the Lyman 35891 (not 358091) with 3.1 grains Bullseye for a very consistent 712 fps in my S&W 637. Very accurate, easy to shoot, and gel tests indicate mild wadcutters actually penetrate quite well when fired from a snub nose, even compared to pricey JHP's.

[Walkingwolf]

1200 fps out of a Ruger GP100. 900 fps out of a Rossi 352.

[cosmoline one]

148 grain wadcutter over 2.9 grains of 700X in my S&W Model 64, 4" barrel, gets me 692 fps. Very nice load that shoots well easily out to 50 yards.


Are you seating flush with case or to 1st crimp/lube ring of WC?

[Norske]

I load Hornady or Speer swaged HBWC bullets for summer carry for my wife's snubby 38. It's a light load, but the very soft bullet will expand because I load it backwards making a big hollowpoint. That's an idea I got from a Skeeter Skelton article many years ago. It's so pleasant to shoot and so accurate, I like it in my 6" Model 19 for practice and rabbit shooting.

[marlin39a]

My favorite wadcutter is a Lyman, 112 gr. I load it low and slow. Like shooting a 22.

[Jesse Heywood]

The fastest I have loaded? 148 gr WC, WW, water quenched and tumbled with Alox.
IMR 4227, 15.0C gr., magnum primers, IMR shows 1,185 fps.
Unique, 6.0 gr., Lee shows 5.8 gr. (1,344 fps) to 6.4 gr. (1,465 fps)

I have also loaded them slow, but what's the challenge in that?

[Treeman]

I chose every speed. Different cartridges different applications.

[jerry6stl]

My Every-Day-Carry CCW is a very lightweight S&W 442 snub-nose .38 Special. I load my practice ammo way down to 700-750 f.p.s. because the regular loads hurt my hand. Gun is almost too light weight to be a .38. I do carry factory HP's for self defense.

[catboat]

Don’t have a chrono-so no idea about MV for any load.

I have two S&W K38 revolvers ( one a full lug, the other with standard barrel).

I have tested Hbwc 148 grainers from. 2.25, 2.5, 2.75 grains at 50 ft and 25 yards. Both pistols shot best with 2.5 grains of Bullseye.

For various solid base 148 ish home cast WC , Bullseye loading in 3.25 to 3.5 grains were most accurate. This include H&G mold, and Lee tumble lube ( a very accurate bulletin in my two K38 revolvers ).

My S&W model 49 2” bbl Bodyguard shoots well with solid base 148grain flat base WC over 3.5 grains Bullseye.

Velocities? Who knows.

[35remington]

In a 1 7/8” Smith barrel 3.5 Bullseye will obtain 780 fps with a 148 solid base wadcutter. 3.1 grains will obtain 705-710 fps.

[evoevil]

I use a bunch of different powders, Like to keep it in the 800-900 range, nice for teaching newbies easy on the hands and shoot very good out of my 686

[Walks]

I grew up shooting the H&G #50 over 2.7grs of BULLSEYE. Cast from 3 differant 10cav molds. I inherited 1 of them about 35yrs ago & used it until arthritis caught up with me. Then I sold it (WITH HANDLES) and switched to a LYMAN #358495. I couldn't tell the difference between the 2 bullets. Maybe when my stock of OLD wadcutter brass wears out I will. I also load that same #358495 in worn old .357MAG brass using 3.5grs of BULLSEYE until the primers fall out or the case mouth cracks.
But I have never loaded WC's for a defensive load. Just plain paper punching or Jackrabbit tumbling when I was a kid. These days my hands aren't good enough to cast perfect bullets or hold well enough for small groups. Sometimes I'll buy some HORNADY swaged WC's and try for that small group with, 3.0grs BULLSEYE.

[Walter Laich]

I'm a slow and easy guy

no need to have the bullet get to the target in record time

[greenjoytj]

I'm shooting a Cam-Pro brand 148 grain fully copper plated HBWC (looks identical to Berry's brand bullet).
Berry's says to launch their bullet with at least 800 fps. When I started loading the Cam-Pro HBWC with 3.1 grains of Hodgdon's Titegroup powder, my first effort didn't include enough powder to make the recommended 800 fps, my load averaged 723.5 fps.
The extreme spread was a disappointment at 113.6 fps the standard deviation was 29.6 fps.
I did not make a effort to ensure the powder charge was back at the primer during the chrono testing.
I didn't want to drive the HBWC too fast in case the hollow base flared like a badminton shuttle cock and loose all accuracy.
This load shot better than I can hold it so I will continue to experiment with this load combination.
For my next reloading attempt I think I'll increase the powder quantity a little closer to the max charge weight.

[tazman]

I try for at least 800 fps. My revolvers seem to be more accurate at that speed. Below 800fps, I get more flyers and the groups aren't as tight. Going faster than 800fps doesn't improve the groups.
There again, I don't shoot beyond 25 yards. It might make a difference at the longer ranges.

[Pioneer2]

If you want a defense /pest load with rapid expansion load 3gr of Unique with a 148gr HBWC upside down.These expand to .70-.75" Skeeter Skeleton used to use these in a 2" snubby hideout gun while on Border Patrol.Makes gophers six feet long and able to fly.I used these in a S+W model 10 /4"

[OldFotoMan]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this question, but it sure seems like a good place to get the info or answer that I need. I just acquired some reloaded 38 Special wad cutters from a sale of a gentleman who was known to be a very meticulous re-loader in our area. These are 148 gr hollow base (double ended hollow), loaded with 3 of Bullseye. Could anyone here tell me the approximate pressure and velocity these would generate? I know it would vary somewhat depending on what they are being fired in. I purchased them with the understanding that these would be lower power and pressure loads. I have an S&W Air Crewman and a Colt Cobra which were both designed for lower power loads due to their aluminium allow cylinders. Also own a 1864 Remington Navy that was converted to shoot 38 Long Colt. I'm hoping this ammo would be safe to fire in any of these. I've fired many rounds of standard 38 special through the Cobra, so I'm not really worried about it, but certainly don't want to risk damaging myself or either of the other revolvers if these loads would be to strong for them. So I guess the question actually could be if this load would be about equivalent to a standard 38 Long Colt load, since I know they would be safe in either gun. Thanks in advance for any help or info anyone can provide.

[35remington]

Those loads would be in the standard pressure range. Actually below it by a fair amount. Velocity from a snubby should be around 700 fps.

Be sure you know the loading info is correct. I would check rather than take it on faith.

[JoeJames]

From my 4" Smiths - Model 67, and Model 15, 3.1 grains of Bullseye - 148 grain wad cutter = @ 800 fps

[imashooter2]

2.8 grains of Bullseye and an H&G 50 was good enough for Daddy and it’s good enough for me.

[Kosh75287]

I usually make .38 Spl. in two forms, either 3.6-4.0/Red Dot/158 gr. RNFP, at 800 + 50 f/s for inanimate or harmless targets, or _._/Unique, BE-86 or Herco/158 gr. RNFP, for 1050 + 50 f/s, for animate and potentially troublesome targets. ALL of my loads are launched from a Ruger Police Service Six in .357 or a S&W M28, so I'm not straining any poor .38 special revolvers.
Were I to shoot the excellent 148 gr. HBWCs with any regularity, I'd likely drop the load to 3.0 + 0.2 gr./Red Dot/148 gr. HBWC with the idea to get an honest 750 - 800 f/s from a 4" barrel. No need for nor gain in pushing this fine old projectile any faster.

[rintinglen]

Per Lyman's 3rd edition Cast Bullet Handbook, a 358-63, a double-end, 148 grn., WC bullet would generate 8,400 CUP when loaded with 2.4 grains Bullseye, and 16,100 CUP at a max load of 3.8. OAL was listed as 1.152" but these are not hollow based.
Assuming you have a similar bullet, it would be likely that your pressures would be slightly higher, due to differences in case capacity occasioned by the greater length resulting from the hollow cavities, but they would still be quite low. At a WAG, something in the 11,000-13,000 CUP range.

However, I would not shoot an Aluminum Cylinder Aircrewman save in the gravest extreme. They only made 600 or so, most were destroyed by the govt back in the 50's and are worth the price of a decent used car. The reason the Air Force got rid of them was they were deemed dangerous to shoot. If they were breaking with the 130 grain 16,000 psi military, I would be very hesitant about turning a 3,000-5,000 dollar collector's item into a hundred bucks worth of parts using any handload I did not personally craft. And I don't think I would fire more than a handful even then.

[rhill]

Another reloading question...I have a bunch of .38spl dewc loaded with 2.8gr. bullseye(148gr. bullet) for my smith 52. I was shooting them in my model 60 and was hitting about 8" low at 7yds. I switched to 158lswc with 4.5 Unique and was dead on. As I have an endless supply of wadcutters to reload, any suggestions for raising the point of impact? By the way the light wc loads are a lot snappier than the 158lswc loads, not that the wc loads are like .357mag.

[anothernewb]

mine go out the barrel at whatever 2.8 BE or 2.4 TrailBoss push them. basically just enough to punch the paper.

[one-eyed fat man]

My favorite was Remington 148 grain hollow base wadcutter over 2.8 grains of Bullseye. 755 fps out of my S&W model 52-1. Seems like no one sells a good hollow base wad cutter anymore.

[Rodfac]

I load Lyman's 358091, using straight wheel weight alloy with a pinch of tin for mold fill out. My standard load in .38 Special brass with light taper crimping in the first groove, is 3.5 gr of Bullseye. This chrono's at 823 fps from my 4" M-66 Smith. I size to 0.358" BTW. Best regards, Rod

[racepres]

I load Lyman's 358091, using straight wheel weight alloy with a pinch of tin for mold fill out. My standard load in .38 Special brass with light taper crimping in the first groove, is 3.5 gr of Bullseye. This chrono's at 823 fps from my 4" M-66 Smith. I size to 0.358" BTW. Best regards, Rod
Like Most here... I have burned probably more than my share of Red Dot, and quite a bit of Bullseye, especially in 38 wadcutters!!
Recently acquired a Lee 358-148 wadcutter mold.. Button nose one. Fooled with "hotter" wadcutter loadings.. even 357 mag hot, well over 1000fps!! Not for me.. Youngest owns a stainless 3" 85 Taurus..the one with ported barrel... we found that not much gass gets out with Red Dot, at 700fps. Decided on more powder bulk, and Trail Boss is Not the answer with wadcutters..3.7 grains of Unique works about as well as anyone could expect...while delivering some bit of gass out the ports, maybe even helping control...(I doubt it)
more than a couple comparisons show a bit under 800 fps with 3.7 grains of Unique.. and some excursions pushing 830fps at 4.0 grains..
Probably going to leave it at 3.7...and just enjoy it!!
Oddly it feels the same as that guns Favorite load, the Lee 358-158 RF, over 4.2 gr of Trail Boss at 730-740 fps..
Just an aside from Bullseye and Red Dot... etc...

[Electrod47]

For my " down on my clanger range", all my single action .357's and a few double actions are 90% shot with .38's. 148 DEW's purchased in bulk from the usual suspects. Loaded with 3.5 grains RED DOT. launched from 2"-7 1/2" barrels. I get good "enough" results. That's also my carry load for the Charter Undercover .38 spl. circa 1972.

[old70]

I found a load for my 6" Model 66 today that shoots very well out to 25 yards, which is as far as my eyes work with handgun iron sights. it is 2.5gr. Competition in Winchester brass with federal match primers. I'd feel comfortable with head shots on bunnies at that range. I haven't chronoed it, but i'm sure they are moving slowly.

Old70.

[Jcm800]

I use a precision delta 148 hbwc in my Davis model 10. These groups were with 2.9 Bullseye but I get similar results with WST and Titegroup. They are around 750 fps.
312518

[Good Cheer]

My favorite was Remington 148 grain hollow base wadcutter over 2.8 grains of Bullseye. 755 fps out of my S&W model 52-1. Seems like no one sells a good hollow base wad cutter anymore.

A tumble lube HBWC mold would seem like a natural seller.

[LabGuy]

I recon I could crono them, but they are well below max, more like starting loads.

[Charlie Horse]

I've never had any problems doing this:

324419

In fact, results have been pretty decent, considering I hate buckhorn sights. (I've pushed them harder.)

324420

[35 Rem]

I've not shot wadcutters much but did recently buy a Lee 148 grain TL mold. I shoot it in my Uberti Stallion in 38 Special with 5" barrel using both 3.2 and 3.6 grains Red Dot. The 3.6 gr load gives about 890 ft/sec. Oddly the lighter (3.2 grains) load started about 820 ft/sec when firing a string of shots recently with that load, and each successive shot was faster than the shot before until it got to about 900 ft/sec. The leading was horrendous. I think the velocity was due to the bore becoming more fouled with each shot and that in turn increasing pressure. The rear couple inches of the bore looked like it had molten lead washed around 360 degrees. Obviously, I must have a bad fit issue and I need to do some measurements.

[35 Rem]

I do like the idea of full power 38 Special wadcutter loads. They make sense for self defense. For any cartridge/gun combo where you don't have enough velocity to guarantee expansion, a wide meplate is the obvious way to go at least for defensive loads which will be used up close. In spite of the terrible leading, I've gotten good accuracy with the 3.6gr Red Dot load for 50 or more rounds without cleaning.

[gwpercle]

For those who like the idea of full power 38 special wadcutter loads ...
Take a look at the old Lyman 358432 - 160 grain mould (the same number also comes in a 148 gr. weight so watch for which one you get .)

This is like a cross between a SWC and WC with a solid plain base and a crimp groove below a longish WC nose ... looks like an old school WFN boolit .

Lyman has discontinued 358432 but NOE makes a reproduction , which is an improvement on the lyman design ... a little wider front driving band , it weighs 160 grains and perfect for hard hitting , full power loads .
Powder coat it and shoot in 357 Magnum .
So if you wish to experiment with full power wadcutter loads , this is the boolit to try ... I replaced my old Lyman 1-cavity with a NOE 4-cavity and it's about the only boolit I load in 38 special now days . It is very accurate in all my revolvers .
Check it out ... a very interesting boolit design !
Gary

[racepres]

For those who like the idea of full power 38 special wadcutter loads ...
Take a look at the old Lyman 358432 - 160 grain mould (the same number also comes in a 148 gr. weight so watch for which one you get .)

This is like a cross between a SWC and WC with a solid plain base and a crimp groove below a longish WC nose ... looks like an old school WFN boolit .

Lyman has discontinued 358432 but NOE makes a reproduction , which is an improvement on the lyman design ... a little wider front driving band , it weighs 160 grains and perfect for hard hitting , full power loads .
Powder coat it and shoot in 357 Magnum .
So if you wish to experiment with full power wadcutter loads , this is the boolit to try ... I replaced my old Lyman 1-cavity with a NOE 4-cavity and it's about the only boolit I load in 38 special now days . It is very accurate in all my revolvers .
Check it out ... a very interesting boolit design !
Gary

What I use in 38-44 Loads...kinda Hot !
Edit; as I had Highlighted the wrong Boolit...

[onehousecat]

Not very fast. If I want to shoot something faster I shoot a different bullet or I shoot a 357.

My thoughts exactly. I use a very sedate load with 148 HBWCs. According to the manuals it is a safe load, but a very low charge of powder.

[JSnover]

I do like the idea of full power 38 Special wadcutter loads. They make sense for self defense. For any cartridge/gun combo where you don't have enough velocity to guarantee expansion, a wide meplate is the obvious way to go at least for defensive loads which will be used up close. In spite of the terrible leading, I've gotten good accuracy with the 3.6gr Red Dot load for 50 or more rounds without cleaning.

Up here in the People's Republic of New Jersey expansion is a moot point; Thou Shalt Not use hollow points for defense (we actually are allowed to have them but only for sport/rec/competition). Not that matters with a snubby; wadcutters are as good as anything else out of that short barrel.

[Good Cheer]

May as well have a soft lead wadcutter with gas check base.

[tazman]

Up here in the People's Republic of New Jersey expansion is a moot point; Thou Shalt Not use hollow points for defense (we actually are allowed to have them but only for sport/rec/competition). Not that matters with a snubby; wadcutters are as good as anything else out of that short barrel.

Question. Do the police carry\use hollow points in New Jersey?

[Kosh75287]

If I've already mentioned this, please forgive my lapsing memory:
1.) MY experience with hollow-based wadcutters is that they deliver superb accuracy (of course) and formidable terminal performance in small game, when velocities are kept below ~800 f/s.
2.) Pushing them faster decreases accuracy and presents a true hazard of skirt (rear-most part of the bullet) separation, with lodging in the barrel. If the skirt lodges and is not detected, the subsequent shot could have catastrophic results.
3.) Solid-based (Double-ended) wadcutters can be pushed at pressures well into +P+ levels, if cast slightly harder, and will retain most of the terminal effect of the HBWC.
4.) Loads with either style of wadcutter are probably as good as one may have for the first cylinder-full of rounds. Due to their "flat-faced" profile, however, they are no joy to use for refilling a revolver cylinder, especially under time pressure. The PPC folks do not seem to struggle much, but if memory serves, the time intervals involved allow for fairly leisurely manipulations. Not so, when shooting for one's life.
SEMI-wadcutters seem to work better for some defensive shooters, though there are also those who find two sharp shoulders on one projectile doubly troublesome. The SWCs seem to shed velocities slightly less than the full wadcutters, also, which can matter at typical .38 Special velocities, if distances exceed "conversational" ranges.
A reasonably good bullet profile for the next salvo from a revolver if (God forbid) one is necessary, may be the 158 gr. RNFP, or a similar weight Wide Flat Nose. In effect, this is a truncated cone, but with a wider meplat in relation to bore diameter, than usually seen in TC bullets intended for use in auto pistols. Neither bullet profile will quite deliver the terminal effect of the "flying beer can" shaped wadcutters, but either is well ahead of a full-round nosed shape, and the "funnel shape" should make aligning case mouths with revolver chambers faster and easier during reloading.