question about paperpatched bullets

[johnson1942]

years ago i talked by phone to a famous long distance muzzleloader shooter who's name i dont remember right now. he told me that he didnt use a felt or fiber wad behind his paperpatched bullets and it was just powder and patched bullet. i always thought that the powder would burn the paper up? can any one expand on this? special papaer or special lube? he was noted for great accracy. you would think their would be a lot of blow by before the bullet bumped up. he also said his bullets didnt go down the barrel overly tight and they bumped up just fine. the paper had to stay on the bullet in the barrel. i dont doubt what he said but i hope i can get specifics. thanks before hand.

[Maven]

johnson1942, You may want to ask Idaho Ron about this, as he's an expert on paper patching.

[Doc Highwall]

Remember even with high burning temperatures the heat is only applied for a few milliseconds at most that the bullet is actually in the barrel, not enough time to ignite the paper let alone melt the base of a plain base bullet, at most just leave impressions of partially burned powder on the base of the bullet.

[oldracer]

When I finally bought my Pedersoli Gibbs I found that there are two ways to treat that 540gn bullet, either lubed (pan or soft) or paper patched. In addition I also found that for both there are two methods to protect the bullet, a wad or no wad (no protection). For the wads I found there about as many material types as in the cartridge loading AND weather to use a lubed wad or dry! So far I am about half way through my testing but was derailed by a mini-stroke a couple months ago so it will continue shortly. I did talk at length with Lee Shaver, who just competed on the national long range team in South Africa and he uses paper patched bullets with no wad if I remember correctly. He noted at the match that there was a mix of lubed and patched shooters and also a mix of wads and no wads.

I think the best bet would be to shoot some patched bullets and then see if you can find any of the paper, similar to what I do with my round ball guns to see what is coming out of the barrel? I would marks the paper with a marker so I could tell how it was wrapped on the bullet as I bet it gets pretty banged up?

[johnson1942]

thanks old racer, as you gave me the name of the man i talked to, lee shaver. that confirms what he said to me. also i never thought about the very short burst of heat and that it was too short to burn the paper. i really feel the less things behind the bullet to upset it, the better it may shoot. maybe nothing at all is best. i have a new reduceing die comming and im going to switch paper with that reduceing die and as weather permits,i will try no wad shooting. its a snow storm here the last two days. off subject, sorry to here about your mini stroke, i was wondering why we hadnt heard from you of late. im finally getting some strength back my self from west nile virus. sure is fun to get back to shooting. thanks for post. also i hope idaho ron reads this and gives us info also.

[idahoron]

I have tested with wad and without. I saw improvements with the wad but here is the reason. I am using the Lee 500 S&W bullet. That bullet is actually a Gas Check bullet. So in my case the base of the bullet is much smaller so I do believe I was getting some cutting. I could not proved it other than to try both. I also played with wad diameters and lube. I found that again with the Lee, I needed a wad that was .62" diameter. These tend to pucker a bit when I insert them into the muzzle. But these wads sealed the gas not doubt about that.

I also did find that for a second fast reload I was in the neighborhood so I could go without the wad for a follow up. As with everything the more you use it the more your opinions change. A lot of guys want a fast reload, I don't. If I need to reload because the animal is still on it's feet I take the time to do the full reload with the wad. I want the peace of mine that if I did have a problem with the first shot My second would be as perfect as I could reload. I don't want to second guess my load after I loaded it. In my case so far with these bullets I have not needed a second shot on anything.

After the testing I did with the Lee 500 S&W bullet, I just copied that with the rest of my loads and rifles. My 45 is using a .446" flat base bullet. It slides down pretty easy so I side with my thinking that the wad can't hurt. That load will shoot sub 1" if I do my part.
The testing I did never showed any burnt paper when no wad was used but all I ever found was just the round piece that was against the bottom of the bullet and it was indeed smaller than the bore since the base was smaller due to the Gas Check's smaller base.

In the end I think there are a lot of things to take into consideration. Bullet design, paper quality, the bore of the rifle, maybe even the type of powder used. I don't think there is a blanket way that is best. A guy just has to see what works. Ron

[johnson1942]

thanks ron. my .45 shoots a wad behind the bullet and is extreemly accurate. my .50 is the pain. as soon as my new push through sizer comes im going to try chase patches and freezer wrapper paper, number 18 paper one wrap(chase). and double wrap with some thin tough art traceing paper. will see which one works the best. instead of starting out at .492 im going to try .494. im going to also try with or without a wad. i to clean between shots, i also if i hit a deer, they go down. some guns just shoot, some you got to find what they shoot. my target big .50, 1/23 twist i gave up on for paperpatch. i then reamed the muzzle ,like modern inlines do, so a sabot can fit easily in it. i got some .50 sabots for .458 bullets. i then cast up a 466 grain .459 diam bullets. i then trued them up in my swageing .459 die. i shoot just 80 grains of 2f black and they are so accurate it is unsettleing (almost). they shoot so well im going to do some real paper punching and even long distance shooting with it. the hunting .50 i think it can bring it around. i did knarl some .492 bullets to .494 and chase patched them with one wrap of freezer paper. they shot well. that is a long way around to get what i want. so i put the gun away untill i get the .494 sizer. p.s. the sabots shot so well i ordered 500 of them. mmp/s prices are pretty good. thanks every one for your input and lee shaver cant be wrong. another p.s. i should just stick with douglas barrels. they all shot paperpatch very well. tested my sons new inline with paperpatch, shot as good as the sabots he uses. its a douglas barrel also.thanks again

[Nobade]

If I wipe between shots, no wad is required. If I want multiple shots without wiping, I use a LDPE wad on the powder followed by a lubed felt wad. This combo is nearly as accurate as wiping between shots, but is way faster to load and saves patches. If I were shooting in competition like Lee Shaver does I would experiment a whole lot and figure out what works the absolute best. But for normal fun shooting or hunting, what I do now works fine.

-Nobade

[johnson1942]

thanks

[Good Cheer]

Same for me with the gas check bases, lubed ones and patched ones.