Anybody know about the Auto 5?

[MtGun44]

I know the old hump backed John Browning was the first semiauto shotgun,
and I have seen them around, but never shot one. I was thinking about an
inexpensive auto shotgun for self defense and it crossed my mind.

I have found that the Rem 11 and Savage 720 are 'basically' the same design,
perhaps even literally interchangeable parts.

1 - Are the parts interchangeable - esp barrels, so if I needed to swap would one
maker's barrel fit the other?

2 - I can get an extended magazine tube. Any reason that this wouldn't make
a cheap Savage (may be able to get for $225 in good shape) 720 into a decent
self defense gun, cutting a 30" tube back to 18" - making it cyl bore in the process?

Any info on why this may or may not work well would be appreciated. I know
handguns and rifles very well but an woefully ignorant on scatterguns.

Thanks!

Bill

[Vopie]

Bill, most parts are not interchangeable, Bbl's are not. I have seen receivers cracked from someone swapping bbl.'s. All three are very reliable if kept clean. Make sure forearm is solid, not cracked or chipped around base were it meets the receiver, this controls forward Bbl. stroke {recoil operated } and thus function. Hope this helps, Jim.

[pipehand]

Bill, a guy over on Shotgun world did this with a model 11:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/99195/normal_2012-05-18_15-57-28_736.jpg

Also, while I know zip about the Savage variant, the old Model 11 I have is a slow loading proposition. You have to push in the button on the right side of the receiver to insert shells in the mag. Pre-1954 Browning A-5's were like that too, but they changed the lifter to allow topping up the magazine w/o pushing the button. I have heard of people modifying Rem 11's to take a late Browning two-part lifter.

Realistically, the slow loading is probably not the issue in a true HD gun as much as it would be for, say, a 3--Gun match.

[Janoosh]

I would check the gun parts suppliers and see which firearm has the most spare parts available and go with that firearm. That being said, I have an Auto 5, a Great gun, it's my go to crow gun, always used, never abused. I even shot sporting clays with it.

[scb]

The m11 has two parts that the others do not. Recoil buffer - fiber cushion that is held in with a rivet. http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/Remington-33454/Shotguns-37896/11-41186.htm #'s 13 and 14. If the gun has been fired a lot or was ever re-blued it is probably gone. Browning's and Savages don't have one. I think Remington shortened the receivers some which made the buffer a requirement. Shooting a M11 with out it even with light loads can cause the back of the receiver to break out. It can also cause the bolts to crack, a very common problem. There was also a rather major design change during it's manufacturing life where there are 2 different barrel extensions and 2 different cartridge stops being the main difference. Numrich has them listed as 1905 and 1931 series. While barrels on these were never interchangeable it makes if very difficult fit a 1905 bbl to a 1931 receiver and visa-versa.

[MtGun44]

Thanks guys, valuable info, I appreciate the replies. I may get the Savage and see what
happens. Are there any good books or web sites that actually discuss the design?


pipehand - That is an AMAZING transformation, I guess the handguard keeps the barrel
free to function no matter where your hand is or if rested on a wall or such.
Almost impossible to recognize the old girl.

Bill

[oscarflytyer]

I have a clone. There is apparently a small cult following of A5 guys in 3 gun. It is supposed to be the fastest repeat shooting auto! Mine shoots well, but currently has (apparently) something broken in the trigger group. Has a dead trigger. I need a competent A5 'smith to look at it, as I understand the trigger is more complicated than most.

[w5pv]

My father in law toted a load of # 6 shot around with him,for years. from trying to dislodge a swollen up paper hull shot shell in a Remington model 11.He recoiled the barrel and bolt far enough to the rear that the firing pin went forward into the primer and set the round off.It got some of one lung but most of the shot went into his arm.Be careful if you recoil the barrel by hand.

[Billybob123]

I would suggest getting a used 870 or 1100 Remington instead of the A5. Just my 2 cents worth from having used all 3.

[Char-Gar]

They make fine defense shotgun when properly set up. The magazine cut-off is a nice feature. I have been using these shotguns since 1954.

[dverna]

Self-defense.......

Mossberg 500 or Remmy 870. Reliability is everything.

Plus parts are everywhere and they are easy to fix.

Don Verna

[jmort]

"It is supposed to be the fastest repeat shooting auto!"

It is fast but not the fastest. The fastest semi-auto shotgun is the Winchester SX2/SX3 and FN SLP which is based on SX2

[evan price]

I have a Savage 720. Barrels do not interchange and are rare. Cut it if you want but I've been looking for a spare for mine, the last one on eBay went last month for around $140, well used. I paid $185 for my complete Sav 720 in good shape.
Some small parts interchange like the mag caps. Most major parts do not.

Barrel extensions are problematic in this design as the entire barrel recoils whereas the mag tube does not; a mag extension can't clamp on the barrel for support. Last I saw mag extensions were roughly $40. Plus a longer recoil spring.
To load a 720 you have to push in the button on the right side of the receiver to get the shell lifter to raise out of the way, and the 720 does not have the mag disconnect like an Auto-5 has.
Don't get me wrong, they are great guns, not particularly valuable like a Light 12 A-5, but very functional licensed versions of the Browning design.
If it floats your boat, chop it up. Just don't expect to find a cheap barrel to replace the choked barrel if you want it long again.

[SPRINGFIELDM141972]

I have a Model 11 with a shorten barrel and installed rifle sights. It is my smooth bore slug gun. I purchased a Ram-Line stock for it for use in the brush of Alaska. I have grudgingly fallen in love with the "plastic" stock. It looks like hell in my mind but it really turn the gun into a no nonsense workhorse. I did install a second recoil bushing ring to tame the recoil on the action. The configuration is now ring under the barrel lug, then bushing, then ring and then spring. This really smoothed out the cycling under the heavy recoil of slugs.

[Dan Cash]

Ihave several auto 5s and one M11. The A5 is much preferred for many reasons. The gun shoots very rapidly and is very controllable once you get used to the uniqe recoil of the system. Browning, once upon a time, made a riot or trench gun with full magazine and forestock but I bet such a set up is rare and spendy. one drawback to the gun is if the barrel is in contact with any obstacle as when in firing from cover, it will probably fail to extract/eject or fail to feed; the nature of the long recoil system.

Having the Brownings on hand, I would not hesitate to use them but the Mossberg pumps, older Reminton pumps and autos are much better choices. I can't speak regarding some of the newer blasters on the market.

[Jeff Michel]

The A-5 is recoil operated, if you do not have it properly mounted, i.e. shoulder or equivalent, it will not provide enough resistance to cycle reliably. I've seen it a number of time with recoil sensitive shooters too many times for me to consider a fluke. A sturdy pump gun would be tough to beat for reliable.

[Combat Diver]

I just sold my 1946 dated FN Browning A5. Before I got in the in the early 80s someone had cut down the stock to LOP 12.5" and cut the bbl back to 22" cylinder bore. Loved the bank vault lock up and ringing of steel. I know on the Browning you can use a Remington 870 extentsion but you need a 1/8" spacer. As stated do not use a mag clamp to the barrel. An assumption is that you could also use the same 870 extentsion on the Model 11 but don't know about the Savage.


CD

[MBTcustom]

I know my way around these guns as I have reblued and worked on quite a few of each.
The A5 is not fast cycling. It's slow as dirt, but pretty darn reliable. Very good design.
The Remington 11's have a leather disc in the rear of the receiver, and any smith worth his salt would make a replacement and rebuck the rivet. Leaving it out is just uncouth.
The triggers are nothing out of the ordinary. Very simple design that works really well.

The problem is getting one that is in good enough condition to bet your life on its function without paying an arm and a leg for it.
Personally, I would recommend something newer, but that's just me.

When it comes to automatic shotguns, nothing has impressed me like the offerings from Beretta. The very very first gun I took in when I got my business set up was a Beretta Extrema II 3 1/2" magnum. That gun is built like a tank. The oprods are welded to the bolt, the piston is absolutely massive, and it cycles so fast that the last shell clears the chamber before the first one is 36" away. Buddy, that's fast!!!
I do believe you could run 100 shells through that gun every morning before breakfast for 5 years and never wear anything out.

As far as vintage shotguns go, the old Winchester model 1400 was about the zippiest that I have worked on. Very fast cycling and very reliable but only holds three shells because the gas system is part of the magazine tube. But seriously, how much convincing does a bad guy really need after three rounds of #4 buck 5 feet away?

[jmort]

"The dead trigger is due to dropping the hammer before the gun is in battery."
From "Speed Shotgun" by Patrick Kelley published in Front Sight magazine, official journal of the United States Practical Shooting Association. Somewhat dated from 2001, but nothing has really changed.

"Using the same videographic techniques that we applied to the 1100, we found the limit for the Benelli: 13 hundredths of a second. That's it. Any faster, and the hammer follows the bolt."

"The initial reaction of many shooters to this information is, "Who cares? Who really goes that fast?" or "Where would I use that speed?" Practical shooters (and some tactical shooters) are different. This is why I penned my "on the range" experiences. If you KNEW that your pistol stopped working at .13 seconds and your ability exceeded that, you would be at the gunsmith getting it fixed. Why should you expect less from your shotgun? If you worked on a SWAT team, and the Benelli was your main shotgun, wouldn't knowing that you were carrying a gun guaranteed to fail at under .13 second splits give you pause?"

"Okay, drum roll please. Will the real world's fastest cycling shotgun please stand up? What? We have two guns standing? How can this be? We can thank the people at Winchester and Browning for this situation. They have unwittingly given us a choice between two "world's fastest cycling shotguns." The Browning Gold and the Winchester Super X2 are both built on the same basic platform, and these guns haul!"

" I got a chance to spend a little time (very little) with the Winchester Super X2 and found what may pull me away from my beloved Auto 5. After a few speed drills on three pepper poppers, I was already well pleased with this self-loader's performance. Using 00 Buck loads (does this thing smooth out recoil or what?) I ran a three-popper course with each popper a yard apart and 12 yards down range. From the port arms position I was able to "draw" and knock down all three in just under one second. Considering a reaction and first engagement time of .68, split times between the next two poppers were 12 and 13 hundredths respectively. This is as fast as my Auto 5! At this speed, the Benelli's hammer follows the bolt!
Idaho state police officer David Neth was kind enough to let me perform this test with his personal Winchester SX2 Practical. He also demonstrated this shotgun's true capability by pulling off some 11 hundredths splits along with a handful of 12's. To top that, he beat my personal record for the fastest five shots. This is a little thing I have been doing since the speed bug hit me. With the timer running you let loose of five rounds as fast as you can, counting the first shot as zero and totaling the remaining four split intervals. My best to date has been 56 hundredths. David amazed the small gathering at a 3 gun match in Winchester, Idaho by firing those five shots in 51 hundredths! The splits were three .13's and one .12. This gun is full auto fast! By the way, this was with Federal 00 buck. No, not the low recoil stuff, this was Federal MAX 2 3/4 Classic."

[seaboltm]

As far as a magazine extension for the A-5, if I recall the magazine tube end cap threads for the A-5 and the Remington 870 are identical, meaning a Remington 870 extension should work on an A-5.

[MtGun44]

I got a deal on a Rem 11 that has no finish, but otherwise looks pretty reasonable. Bead
blast and rust blue, refinish the stock and deepen the checkering. It has a Cutts with what
appears to be a full choke tube on it by the length. Probably will find or make a
spreader. Definitely install a new fiber buffer - Gun Parts has them.

Thanks for all the info. Wasn't actually looking for the best self defense shotgun, was looking
for info on Auto 5s. I have a Mossberg 500 and an Ithaca Riot Gun pump and they are fine
for the job. I just wanted to fool around with an Auto 5 or clone to learn about another
classic Browning design and maybe make a useful self defense shotgun out of it. The
info on using an 870 mag tube is REALLY great news, appreciate hearing that. Hope the
Rem 11 has the same situation.

Reid Coffield had a series on rebuilding a Rem 11 and I have read several of the installments.
If anyone has the Part 2 of 'Salvaging a Remington 11", I'd love to borrow it or maybe
you could scan the article and send it.

Thanks again for all the info - learned a lot already, will certainly learn more. I think
$150 is a fair price, we'll see once I get it in my hands!

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

Bill: I bought an Auto 5 a few years ago for $300 specifically to make into a riot gun. I have had it apart 15 times trying to get the bolt to stay open after the last shot. Finally wen to Brownells and they sent me the right part but I never put it in and the gun has sat. I am going to talk to Tim about fixing and re-bluing it. It was made in 1950 and I think that was prior to the speed load function being added. It also has a Cutts Compensator but it will be removed for the shortened barrel, and open sights added.

Don't go below 20" on your barrel cut, it makes the gun look and feel weird, and also replacement barrels are not interchangeable on any of them. They all have to be fitted to each individual gun. IF you are going to put sights on it make sure they are "Open Sights," since the barrel moves so much a rear sight mounted on the receiver won't be too accurate. Also If you shoot with both your eyes open seeing the barrel coming at you the first few times can be distracting.

I have a pristine 1964 Light 12 that my favorite uncle gave me before he died, it has the speed load function where the first round you stuff in the magazine automatically feeds to the chamber. This gun came with both full and modified barrels from the factory in the Browning hard case. It is not going to be modified in any way except it does need a new recoil pad which I can do.

Just my take on these guns

Randy

[scb]

If you are going to mount sights on the barrel just be really careful about the position.
One day Bubba drug is Browning A5 into the shop. He had silver soldered one of these on.
90446
He attached it too far to the rear. When he fired the first round it split the top of the old A5 about half way back. Was gona to save a few bucks and do it his self.

[W.R.Buchanan]

SCB: Where did that sight come from , who makes it? I am looking for rear sights for my gun as we speak.

Obviously I need a steel one so it can be silver soldered onto the barrel.

That doesn't work with Williams Aluminum ones.

Randy

[scb]

Remington factory. 700's, 742's 760's etc. I think they still use them. Haven't paid much attention lately.
Yup they do. http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/sights/rear-sights/sight-assembly-rear-prod10696.aspx?avs|Make_3=Remington
I would caution against using this on a recoil operated barrel. I have seen them used but the inertia of the barrel slamming back and forth makes it hard to keep the elevation set.

[HighHook]

I know on the a5's I change the spring settings 12 ga load specific and really eats the recoil force on shoulder.

[MtGun44]

Randy,

Beautiful shotgun, super nice case and extra bbls. I got a already bubba'd barrel on e-bay for $40 without bbl extension, so will swap
them and leave the original unmolested. Cleaning out a lot of grunge and it all actually looks pretty good inside, including the
bbl.

I appreciate all the info, and a friend has an 870/1100 extension that we will try. So - where exactly does this 1/8" spacer go?

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes Bill: the one in the case is a nice one. The one I'm making into a riot gun is and older one I got for $300 a few years ago.

I have seen Remington and Savage military guns at several gun shows and they are not uncommon. Apparently they were highly regarded since during those War times all of the alternatives were pump actions.

Having 5 shots on hand to instantly fire into a problem was a good thing. Being able to load on the run is something you have to learn. IN your 3 gun comps the mantra is if you're not shooting, you're reloading.

I have been using a Mossberg 500 that holds 8 but I assure you that you can go thru them just as fast as you can 5 rounds and you still have to reload anyway. The extra work running the pump gets old pretty fast. And an extension tube for the Browning is something I just have to find. that gun with 8 on board would be a pretty formidable weapon.

The one thing about the A5's is that you have to decide which level of loads you want to run and set the guns recoil system up for either light loads or heavy loads. The bronze bushing under the fore end has two ways to run it, depending on what you are shooting. If you are planning on shooting 3 gun or any tactical type of use then I would recommend running the lightest birdshot loads you can find or make and make your own buckshot and slug/ball loads out of the same recipe. Mine are my standard trap load with either #8 shot, 000 buck or a .665 round ball that weighs 422 gr. All in the same hulls, with the same wad and powder charge.

This way the A5 will run all of them and never know the difference.

One thing to note is that a light birdshot load is only a relative thing. Any shotgun load used on meat is devastating, and getting hit by anything that comes out of a shotgun will ruin your day, and in most cases permanently. The point is to minimize the wear and tear on your shoulder by shooting light loads for games or home protection. Getting hit by a 1oz slug at 1100 fps will not be more pleasant than getting hit by one at 1300 fps or 1600 fps. But your shoulder will certainly know the difference. It is also the same as a 435gr .45-70 boolit at the same velocity so that should give some point of reference.

Randy

[MtGun44]

NO doubt that at short range, ANY 12 ga load is going to be fatal to any part of the trunk.
Even #8s at in-the-house ranges, although I'd choose #6 or #5 for that application first.

How do the round balls shoot as far as accy out to 50 or even 100. I have been amazed at
the accy of ordinary Foster slugs at 100 yds. Do you load these in a normal poly shot
cup?

Arms and legs not as likely fatal, but may be a missing limb.

Mine will be just as a house gun, but I may put the cutts barrel back on from
time to time and hunt with it, too.

Bill

[W.R.Buchanan]

Bill: My normal trap load is an old style Win AA hull with 20ish gr of Green Dot, and a Claybuster WAA12 clone for a wad and Win primers. I use the exact same setup for buckshot and the .665 round balls except with the round balls I use a 1/4" thick felt wad under the ball. The crimp folds down exactly like it does with #8 shot.

This is all coming out of a Mossberg 500 and I have not shot it to 100 yards yet. At 50 I was able to hit Clay pigeons laying on the berm but had to aim low to do it as the front sight was not high enough. I got a more proper sight mounted yesterday so after it is sighted in we'll see what it will do further out. It should be minute of man at 100 although coming from a smooth bore there is really no telling where the round will end up.

I think the inertia from the speed of the round is what keeps it going in the intended direction, and as the speed drops off the thing is prone to wander. This is essentially the new model Repeating Brown Bess Musket.

Don't expect rifle accuracy cuz it ain't ever going to be there. Some loads are definitely going to be better than others however you can only do so much with a round ball with a big sprue cutoff sticking out . It can and will influence the direction of travel depending on how it is oriented in the shot cup and how it comes out of the barrel. There is little you can do to alter this fact.

Could you hunt with them? Sure, and anything inside of 100 yds. is definitely doable. My Balls weigh 422 gr!, any way you look at it getting hit by one is going to create a serious problem .

Randy

[Hooker53]

Weren't some of the early A5 and Rem 11 shotguns 2 1/2" shell only guns??

[Cap'n Morgan]

I've seen a few old Belgian made A5 with straight stocks and they all where 2 1/2", this chamber length was quite common for European shotguns. One had no lock screws, indicating it was made before 1909.

Lots of info on the A5 here: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=216472

[Ragnarok]

Young kid down the road bought a nice nice Browning A5 3 incher from his uncle for like $400(a store would've priced it at like $800-$1000 it's so nice!). Anyhow..the Browning wouldn't run very well(at all) with 2 3/4" shells. The kid took it to his neighbor for inspection..and they both brought to me. I know how to take the A5 apart and reassemble it..but don't know how to set-up the friction rings. We cleaned the petrified grease out of the recoil spring and off the mag-tube. Cleaned the entire gun and lubed....

Got some destructions online to assemble the friction rings for various length/power shells and set the thing for 12ga 2 3/4" shells and it ran pretty good with 1 1/8 ounce 3 dram loads. I had thought the A5 had a decal inside the forearm illustrating the friction-ring settings(but maybe not?)...also was not aware a 3" Browning A5 could handle 2 3/4" shells as an auto!!

[Hooker53]

Thanks Cap. The reason I was asking. I also came into ownership of a Mod 11 I know they are a lot alike it and the A5. When I had it down cleaning and looking it over I had a spent 2 3/4" shekel on the bench and picked it up for comparison. It almost would not clear the port and maybe didn't. So I was just wondering about that. I think mine is of or around the 1925 vintage. Not sure on that. Good story Ragnarok. I don't think mine would pass a fired 3" thru the front of the port.

[Finster101]

The A 5 sure does look good too. Here is a project that I started a while back with the help of some fella's here on this board. Randy, recognize that mag tube extension?

112523

112524

[W.R.Buchanan]

Finster: Yes I do. The problem I had is that tube would thread on my 1964 gun but wouldn't thread onto my older 1950 gun. That's why you got it.

I'm still looking for one that will work on mine.

How long did you cut your barrel? Looks like 20"?

Also I like your usage of the TRS 25 on that gun. I may do the same thing. The Red Dot on that gun will help you get on target faster than anything there is, and it also will work very well at Night.

You'd also be surprised how that green front sight will work at night with a good light on the gun. I have several Streamlight TLR 1 S's mounted on Carbines and one on my Mossberg as well. They make using Iron Sight's completely possible at night. The Day Glo Green sights are like LED's with the Streamlight on.

The S means Strobe function. Very disorienting. These things are on sale for < $100 in a lot of places. Good addition to your shotgun.

Your gun came out nice!

Randy

[Finster101]

Randy, I believe the barrel is just over 20". The deciding factor was the mag extension. I wanted the barrel either even with it or just past the end of it, I like the look better that way. I still have the original factory vent ribbed barrel as well. I put the red dot on mostly for slugs. I tried a couple with just the bead up front and had no clue where they were hitting. No problem with that now. The only thing I have left to do is a recoil pad, because I would like a little more reach. I have one I'm just a little leary of doing it myself.

James