38 Super Help

[Master_Mechanic]

Hi Everyone,
First off wanted to mention that I have been reading this forum for a while now and have learned a ton, so thanks for the info. I have only been shooting a few years but it has grown into an addiction, naturally this turned into the addiction to reloading and then casting. I have a free steady supply of wheel-weights so casting is the cheap way to go to support my hobby. One of the old guys at my local club swears by his 38 super and has let me try it a few times, which lead my father to buy a brand new Kimber Stainless target 2, we tried 3 or 4 types of factory ammo and couldn't seem to find acceptable accuracy. After reading lots on this forum it lead me to think that it could be from undersized bullets in the factory loads. So off to the loading bench I went, I had some lyman 358311 boolits cast from air cooled clip on wheel weights sized to .357 and lubed with dragon bullet lubes yellow dragon lube. (I slugged the bore and used a micrometer, they measured out a .3555) the load was 4.4gr of unique (the only powder I had data for) accuracy was a bit better but in my eyes still very bad. 20 yards offhand not getting all shots on a 12x12 inch piece of paper (I am not that great of a shot but I know I'm not that bad) A friend suggested using a load of 4.0gr 231 (will try them later this week) do you guys have any other suggestions for me to try, I am beginning to believe its the gun that's the issue but I've never had a problem with a kimber and the gun seems tight. Any ideas are appreciated.

P.S I did load a boolit and pull it and remeasured them still .357

[geargnasher]

My FIL bought a "Frankenpistol" 1911 that was fairly well put-together and with a bit of tweaking it will reliably group two magazines-full into an inch hole at 25 yards from sandbags. I have fired several other .38 Supers with both jacketed and cast handloads and found similar results, so I know that the potential for accuracy is very high compared so some of the other autos.

The issue I had with cast boolits was a step in the barrel at the end of the throat.....muzzle end. Step at end of chamber, then a second one like the reamer was too short and smaller than groove diameter. That caused leading issues until I lapped it out.

The load we settled on used Alliant Power Pistol worked up fairly warm, but below published data with equal weight jacketed bullets. The Lee 150-grain round nose shot the best for me out of this one pistol.

I'd put it on some bags and maybe ask someone else to give it a go. The powders you have been using ought to work perfectly, but the charges seem a bit light (like starting loads?), you might also try working up a bit if your data indicates there's room.

Gear

[WineMan]

Original Colt 38 Super barrels used a semi rim and did NOT headspace on the case mouth. I solved the problem, by using a heavy 0.360", 158 grain cast bullet seated to "jam" in the lands and act as the headspace. The accuracy of M1911 Series 70 went from paper plate to paper cup at 25 yards. I used Unique and the load went for 900 fps +/-.


Dave

[geargnasher]

I just used the barrel as a case gauge and gave it about .005-8" clearance in a clean throat, if nothing else it headspaces on the boolit. That's my MO with all my automatics. Using generic OALs from the books never got me where I wanted accuracy-wise with any of my autos.

Gear

[gwpercle]

If the gun does not group factory ammo well....it's the gun. A trip back to kimber is in order. Thier " target " series should do much better.
That being said, the 38 super never was known as a "tack driving " round, but Kimber should have all the head spacing bugs worked out.
Gary

[khmer6]

My RIA 38 super shot exceptionally well out of the box. .356 hard cast 122gr swc. I believe it was unique or titegroup. I would have to double check. She has only see a diet of lead at first until I started developing a self defense load. I switched to blue dot for the little extra oopmh. Same findings. Very accurate. I find mild to hot loads shoots very well.

[khmer6]

Oh and I was using mix range brass as well as new 38 super comp starline brass. Like previous posts check to see if it Headspace's on the rim, mouth, extractor and work with an OAL specific to your gun

[Floydster]

I have a Witness Elite Match in 38 Super, it is one of the most accurate pistols I have along with my high end 1911's.

[rintinglen]

Prior to the mid 80's, I never saw a 38 Super that would group worth a darn. But when the toy shooters took over IPSC, things changed markedly. If the best your Kimber will do is "Sheet of Paper", I'd be calling them for a shipping tag. There is no excuse for a quality 38 Super to shoot that poorly--they know how to make them better!

[earplug]

Just about all the USPSA Open gun shooters are using a 38 super based gun. The brass is 38 Super Comp. A rimless variation of the 38 Super.
Lots of info at Brian Eno's forum online, Not much cast lead info due to the compensator they use.
I think Starline and Dillion sell the brass.
I'm a 625 revo shooter who watches stuff.

[geargnasher]

Ace Hindman told my FIL when he worked for him that if you asked 10 top pistolsmiths to build the most accurate 1911 they could for a million-dollar prize, 100% of them would show up at the contest with a pistol chambered in .38 Super.

Any progress on this?

Gear

[Cherokee]

Are you going to send it back ? I think you should. My 38 Supers are very accurate, using .356 barrels chambered to headspace on the case mouth. My accuracy loads are with Lyman 356402 or Lee 356120TC CB's; Jacketed are Hornady 124 HAP and 115 or 124 XTP.

[Echo]

Dick Shockey, in El Reno, OK, used to make match grade .38 Supers that were tack drivers. As I remember, the recommended load was for a -402 Lyman boolit, but I never knew how much of what powder. He did some work for me back in the day, and was a good guy - and his guns did the job. As I remember, he took new barrels and chambered them himself to get rid of the dependence on the miniscule rim headspace system, headspacing on the mouth, or actually on the boolit as it contacted the origin of the rifling.

[MtGun44]

I have shot a lot of .38 Super through a Wilson LE Comp. The bore is .357 and I used .358 diam
commercial cast for most, and pushed it hard to make major caliber in IPSC competition. I used a
hot load of the no-longer-available HS7/W571. I think Blue Dot may be able to approximate those
velocities. I suggest you push your Unique harder and give HS6 or Blue Dot a try, again at hotter
levels. Alliant shows 6.2 gr Unique as a max under a 124 Gold Dot jbullet, so you should be OK at around
5 or a bit more under a 158 boolit. Alliant shows Blue Dot making 1300+ fps with 9.2 gr of Blue
Dot under a 124 Gold Dot, so probably OK to use 7 or so grains under a 158 boolit. Since you
have a good bit heavier boolit, be sure to start low and work up to these loads. Hodgdon
shows 7.1 as max with HS6 under a 150 cast boolit.

Headspacing has been on case mouths for a long time now, the old semi-rimmed headspacing on a
tiny rim - ONLY existing in the hood of a 1911 was hopeless. So maybe seating a bit longer will
help get consistency by headspacing on the boolit.

Bill

[Master_Mechanic]

Just a bit of an update for your guys, I tried a load of 231 today and still not accurate. We shot a friends ammo in my gun, way better. We tried my load in his gun and we determined that it could be the boolit sizing, .357 seems too big, as my friends was sized to .355. I will try .356 withe the same load and try agaim

[Master_Mechanic]

Update, We took the gun out this past weekend, groups are getting better with hotter loads, but still seems to shoot left, adjusted the sight still left, different shooter still left. Took the gun to a local gunsmith he took a look at the sights and found the front and rear sight to be off centered by about .015'' each. Just got to move them and we'll be good to go i think. thanks again for the help.

[khmer6]

Hot Rod that sucker!!! Hope she shoots straight next time out. Love this caliber

[Master_Mechanic]

With some time and patience i will get it working good, learned lots due to the fact its the first 1911 to give me any troubles.

[geargnasher]

Once you figure out the details of fit, load, and alloy those things can shoot like a laser. You may find that different load levels will move the POI around quite a bit, even left/right.

Gear

[MtGun44]

My old LE Comp Wilson is still very accurate after maybe 70-80K rounds. Just broken in well
at this point. Hotter is often better with .38 Super. My loads were always raggedy edge because
of the need to make major caliber. Current 'major' is much lower than what we had to meet, 180,000
boolit wt X vel. 158 gr at 1250 fps gave me a good margin. I can drive 9mm 124 Hornady JHPs
at an honest 1400 fps. Yahoo!

Bill

[geargnasher]

My old LE Comp Wilson is still very accurate after maybe 70-80K rounds. Just broken in well
at this point. Hotter is often better with .38 Super. My loads were always raggedy edge because
of the need to make major caliber. Current 'major' is much lower than what we had to meet, 180,000
boolit wt X vel. 158 gr at 1250 fps gave me a good margin. I can drive 9mm 124 Hornady JHPs
at an honest 1400 fps. Yahoo!

Bill

Lawdy, Bill, who needs a Desert Eagle, eh?

Gear

[MtGun44]

Pushing on the edge of .357 Mag. My hottest ever chronoed factory .357 125 JHP was
some S&W brand ammo, chronoed at 1495 fps from 6" Sec Six. At 1400 fps
the .38 Super is not far behind. The competition load of 158 SWC at 1250 was
no slouch either, again pretty much match a .357 load from a 4"bbl.

The IPSC load was 7.1 W571, which did show up as a max load in one of Hodgdon's
little reloading books in the 90s, after I had been using it for many years. Right
at 35,000 psi, IIRC. Rock and roll load, made the comp work well. LOUD, and is
safe in Rem +P, PMC, and Starline brass. Win brass of any flavor (+P,+P+, etc)
would blow out at the unsupported area, so I had to carefully check headstamps
because on the range I would occasionally wind up with a few of someone else's
brass - maybe Win.

Neat old gun.

Bill

[Bzcraig]

I just used the barrel as a case gauge and gave it about .005-8" clearance in a clean throat, if nothing else it headspaces on the boolit. That's my MO with all my automatics. Using generic OALs from the books never got me where I wanted accuracy-wise with any of my autos.
Gear

Gear.....thanks for this post. I have never read anything as clear as this to determine OAL or it just didn't sink in when I did read it. I have always used published data, now I should hit the next level in my accuracy with all my autos.

[Legion489]

My .38 Super Taurus PT1911 is FAR AND AWAY a better gun than the Kimber I have! First the PT1911 worked out of the box, the Kimber didn't. The PT1911 had an EXCELLENT trigger pull out of the box, the Kimber was off the charts (I am a dealer so I get the joy of checking every gun that comes through and an amazing number of them don't work out of the box). The list can (and does) go on and on. Bottom line, buy a good gun and you will be happy. Better send the Kimber back and see if they can (or will) do anything with it. I have not been impressed with the majority of the Kimbers I have seen.

[felix]

Apparently, they are not the gun they used to be when they were first made. But, what name brand is? It seems the newbees getting guns have no idea of quality from past experience, so why would the manufacturers do otherwise? It is really sad to see our manufacturing going into the pits. If a company does not use computerized machining, you can bet the accountants are draining the operations and paying their investors (owners) off. The Turkish manufacturing plants are all brand new (computerized) for the most part, and their average quality is top notch these days. Their pistols are for sale over here, and have been for a few years. If I were buying a rifle made now, it would be a CZ brand for the same reason. They started renovation ten years ago. ... felix

[Master_Mechanic]

My father owns two kimbers (one gold match stainless 2 45acp, one stainless 2 38 super) and a rimfire target upper. The 45 is an amazing gun shoots well trigger is good and the 38 super is very accurate (had a club member put 5 rounds in a 1" group at 25 yards offhand) so to say kimbers arnt good guns seems a little harsh from my experience. I've narrowed the inaccuracy in the 38 super to be the load and the shooter, gun works mint.

[blaser.306]

I am shooting a Springfield armory Custom built by Mike Johnson I beleive he is in either Montana or North dakota. It started life as a 9mm but when it finnished growing up it turned into a 38 super. It shoots very accurately with a water dropped 130 gr truncated cone boolit from a Lyman mould sized .357" and propelled by 6.8 gr of power pistol. My other Major load is 9.2 gr of sr 4756 lit off with a win Small rifle primer . I cannot remember the exact velocity , but suffice it to say that with a 124 gr copper coated thingy it make major with a "small" margin!

[sbeatty1983]

I would send it back to kimber, the one I had would do 1" groups at 25yrds from a bench. I screwed up and sold it when I got in a tight spot for cash one time.

[Master_Mechanic]

I would send it back to kimber, the one I had would do 1" groups at 25yrds from a bench. I screwed up and sold it when I got in a tight spot for cash one time.
The gun shoots tight groups, it shoots jacketed (I have to fine tune the cast loads to shoot tighter) but there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the gun

[geargnasher]

I have owned two Kimbers and most likely will not own a third. When they started making 1911s they were excellent, on par with most "custom" tuned raceguns, and a much greater value than buying a base Colt or Springfield and having it "built" to the same fit, function, and feature level of a top-of-the-line, box-stock Kimber. But then the Kimber automatics got a reputation, and they couldn't make them fast enough. Then they took on LEO and (I think) some military contracts, expanded production capability, and things fell back to "decent production-level" quality instead of fine-tuned custom quality. The price is still going up. The value has diminished greatly in my estimation. I won't say that they aren't still good handguns, but I think "overpriced average" has been a good label since about 2006-8 or so.

Gear

[Cherokee]

38 Super is a great cargridge. My fav load is with Hornady 124 TC (now I guess its a HAP) and lots of Bluedot. Power Pistol does well with the bullet too. For everyday use I use the Lee 124 TC (lube grooves) over AA7 in Starline SuperComp cases for 1260 fps. Boolit size .356 with CR Lube, no leading.