38/44 loads

[bearbud]

I was thinking about the old 38/44 loads (38 special case, 170 LSWC, 13.5g 2400) for the S&W N frame Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman. Where can I find pressure data for these loads?
Do you think it is safe to shoot 38/44 loads, in any S&W double action 357 magnum rated revolver (k & L frames), or only S&W N frames? How about other makers? I think that a Ruger Blackhawk in 357 is probably more robust than the S&W 27, what do you think about a Ruger GP100? bearbud

[Char-Gar]

Your load is not a 38/44 but a full on 357 magnum. I would tone it down to 11/2400. Even then I would use it sparingly in K frames.

[Outpost75]

Char-Gar is spot on.

#2400 powder is no longer recommended for. 38 Special +P loads with any weight bullet, because it does not give acceptable ballistic uniformity below about 20,000 psi, which exceeds the loading limit for. 38 Special +P ammunition. The Maximum Product Average is the not the same as the loadinglimit, but is the sample mean plus 3 standard deviations.

In a .357 revolver ONLY, you could load 11 grs. of #2400 with the #358156 seated out and crimped in the rear crimp groove at 1.55" OAL. When I tested this load back in the 1980s, using bullets cast of wheelweight alloy, sized .358", in the then-standard radial copper pressure test barrel, with Federal +P+ nickel cases and Federal 200 primers the sample averages were in the range of 20,000-22,250 cup. About 20% over industry +P standard at the time.

[bearbud]

Thank you Char-Gar and Outpost. I will tone it down to 11g. I have a lot of 2400 powder and 38 special cases but no 357 magnum brass available at this time. I plan to use it for informal shooting with a Handi rifle (SB2 frame) exclusively. 22-23K cup seems reasonable for the rifle. I will keep it away from my revolvers. bearbud

[Outpost75]

If you have a Ruger Blackhawk, Service Six, Speed Six or Security Six, GP100, SP101, or any N-frame S&W or Colt New Service. 38 Special, they will handle these fine.

Do NOT use in any Smith K-frame or Colt SAA, unless factory built and proofed as a .357!

[Larry Gibson]

I have pressure tested the 358156 (160 gr) seated and crimped in the bottom crimp groove over 13.5 gr of Alliant 2400. Cases were R-P 38 SPL (brass) and the primers were WSPs. The test barrel was a Contender and the psi was done via the Oehler M43 PBL. The average psi(M43) was 28,100 and was very consistent both in psi and velocity. That is definitely 357 magnum territory.

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

Bearbud...I am not a tech guy and don't know my PSI from a hole in the ground. However, I had shot a bunch of hot 38s and learned from the experience. Elmer Keith used to recommend his heavy SWC over 12/2400 in 38 Special cases. I tried it in good pre-war Smith and Wesson Heavy Duty and after the second cylinder full, the cylinder unlatched and plopped over. After the third time that happened, I shot the rest in a good Smith and Wesson Model 28 with no problems. This was 50 years go and I learned that lesson the hard way. I don't think the pistol was injured, but stopped shooting such loads in any handgun that was not intended for 357 Magnum powder.

50 years ago, there was lots of pretty giddy stuff in print by folks who should have known better, like Keith and Skelton. But they were not alone, as many people loaded ammo that was hotter than the hinges of hell. They just didn't shoot the amount of rounds we do today and when they did they used much milder stuff.

About 1959, I was shooting at my favorite spot on the Rio Grande River when a Border Patrol Jeep pulled up having seen my tire tracks cross their "trail of dust". This time there were two agents in the Jeep and one of the was Bill Jordon who I knew from the skeet club. They all joined in and I shot Bill's service pistol (Combat Magnum) and he had it stoked with hell for leather handloaded hollow points (358156) over a mega dose of 2400. He handed it to my out of his holster. He then went back to the jeep and got some govt issue factory target wadcutters for the rest of our shooting. He then reloaded his sixgun with the hot stuff and egressed the area.

Recently I pulled down the old notebook with my reloading records from the 60's and found about 200,000 rounds of 38 Special loads and 99% of them were loaded with Bulleye powder with various bullets and the charge weight ranged from 3 to 3.5 grains of powder.

My most often fired 38 Special sixguns were the Colt Officers Model and the Colt Trooper, which was nothing but a 4" version of the Officers Model.

The 38 Special and the 45 ACP are my all time favorite handgun rounds, but if a fellow is going to "bore and stroke" the 38 Special case, they should be fired in 357 Magnum handguns.

Sorry for the trip down memory lane, but I seem to be doing that more and more these days.

I have a number of 38 Specials but the Colt remains my favorite. Here is my pet Trooper with gin-u-wine grips by Roper. It was born in 1956.

[Outpost75]

Char-Gar, those Roper stocks are wonderful! And so is the Trooper!

I agree with you that if I were to own but one handgun, it would be a sturdy .38 Special. I would have a hard time choosing between my 4" Colt OP, 6" Officers Model Match or 4" heavy barrel Ruger Service Six, but I would probably lean towards the Ruger simply because I know it is hell for strong and one chambered in .38 Special will take the abuse of Skeeter's loads and never get worn out just by shooting.

[gray wolf]

If you like you can read this article about how Elmer did it back when.
http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=24
It's a nice read, here is a snippet from it.

Keith made the 358429 to be the same length as his .44 SWC (which he designed first). The weight on his .38/44 bullet came out to 173 grains. In later years, Keith would admit that a lighter bullet (150-160 grains) was better suited for use in the .38 Special, but he remained steadfastly faithful to his 173 grain bullet for the .357 Magnum. In my experience, this bullet needs to be pushed hard for best accuracy, which is not surprising since, after all, EK designed it specifically to be pushed hard. Should one desire to re-visit Keith's .38/44 Heavy Duty loads, this bullet can be loaded over 12.0 grains of 2400 in a .38 Special case for approximately 1200 fps (this load should only be fired in N-frame .38s, or .357 Magnum revolvers). The most accurate .357 Magnum load I've fired using this bullet is powered by 14.5 grains of 4227 for about 1250 fps.

The 1930s were a fertile time in terms of .38 bullet design; catalyzed by the .38/44 loads of Elmer Keith, and later by the introduction of the .357 Magnum in 1935. However, the nose on the 358429 was too long to be seated and crimped in the crimp groove when loaded into .357 Magnum cases -- it stuck out in front of the S&W .357 Magnum's cylinder and prevented rotation. Phil Sharpe sat down with George Hensley (this was shortly before George teamed up with James Gibbs) and took Keith's design and shrunk it to 5/6 its size. Thus was born the Hensley's #51; this was the original .357 Magnum bullet. Loaded on top of 14.0 grains of 2400, the H&G #51 tops off a superb .357 Magnum load.

Also a nice read is this
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell358477HP.htm


I don't say do it now or try it now but i think it can be replicated with some common sense and a careful work up of the load.

[GLL]

Keith designed the 358429 specifically for this .38Special revolver.

http://www.fototime.com/D1C1E88A3D3343A/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/E2A985B719EF63F/orig.jpg

Jerry

[BruceB]

Memory lane, indeed!

I'm down to one .38 revolver, an S&W 642 snubbie, which I'll lose in a few weeks to divorce, along with a Model 27. My daughter was given the K-38, which serves her well as a house gun (she totes a Kahr .45 in her Jeep Liberty).

Our pair of S&W M52 target guns have gone through close to 150,000 handloaded/home-cast rounds between them.... the .38 experience here is pretty deep.

I also loaded some VERY ambitious .38s for an earlier K-38 with no apparent ill effects. The gun was still in fine condition when a friend offered me too much money for it. I was a devotee of Keith and Skelton, as were many of my compadres.

The longer this thread runs, the better I like my Model 19.... it's the best of both worlds, serving as a home for the hottest .38s I care to assemble, AND as a lighter-weight .357 carry gun when needed. .38 brass is easy to come by compared to .357s, and the 358156 gives me VISUAL identification of load level.... if the bullet is seated in .38 brass down to the FRONT groove, it's a 'normal' .38 load.... if it's seated to the the LOWER groove, it's a heavier-than-'normal' .38 load. The longer seating is a clear indicator of load level.

I tend to agree with Chargar on the one-.38 concept, with the minor caveat that it PERHAPS should be a M19 just to expand its potential usefulness. Amazing, how the K-frame has withstood the test of time so very well.

[robertbank]

I gave my K38 to my youngest as he had bought my M 27 and M 17 and a friends M29. Gun was very accurate and wonderfully built. I now rely on a Ruger GP-100 which is a heck of a gun. Very smooth trigger and superbly accurate. It did require the cylinder throats reamed and needs a little more fire lapping to cure the leading in the first 1/8th " of the rifling but it is a great pistol. I would like tp pick up a M 10 bull barrel 5" but it will have to wait behind my want for a Marlin Lever in 38/.357.

Take Care

Bob

[Char-Gar]

Bruce...Just for you old friend..just for you. A Model 19-2 with Skelton grips by Bear Hug. I lost 36 handguns in the "Great D-Vorce of 94", so there is life (and sixguns) after divorce.

[pmer]

Keep the stories coming Char-Gar and the pictures are nice too.

[Char-Gar]

Keep the stories coming Char-Gar and the pictures are nice too.


Story telling comes easy to me as I grew up sitting on the old ranch house porch near Trickham Texas listing to the various relatives and neighbors sit and tell stories to be social and pass the time. They were an accomplished bunch, but Uncle Ed, Uncle John and Uncle Bond (Featherston) never missed the opportunity to improve the story a mite with the telling, or so I was told.

Kids today grow up with electronic this or that and not stories told by family and friends. They lose their family history and the joy of hearing and repeating the spoken word. I think we have lost a part of something good and there will be a price to pay as a society down the line.

[frank505]

I shoot 11 grains of modern 2400 in my pre war Outdoorsman with the 358439. Nice load, if shooting the solid version I back down to 10 grains. Very good grouse load here in the mountains, not so much a bear defense load though.
Been messing with the Lyman 358477 for the heck of it, it shoots very well also. The 358156 solid and hollow point versions were given to me by a BP retiree. He loved the hollow point as it tore big holes in the car hood "boats" the dopers tried to cross the river with................Nice bullets all of them.

[onceabull]

Always look forward to these 38/44 threads, But,since the last local G.S. it's even better.. Traded up to a 1952 edition Outdoorsman, 95% revolver..Have had some HeavyDutys,(one less now,as it was the "victim"of the trade .) Have always stopped at 11.0 gr #2400 with any boolits 158 gr or heavier..was late to the game in getting these fine & expensive revolvers, so if seeking more power,there are some first edition Colt Trooper 357's ready . Onceabull

[Beerd]

Bears? I thought this thread was about loading the 38/44.

I don't think it was mentioned on the previous page, so here is some info put together by another member:
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/High%20Speed%20.38%20Special%20Loads.pdf
..

[Ben]

The blueing in that revolver
is simply out of this world !

Ben

[robertbank]

If any of the posters feel their post should be restored PM me and I will do so.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

Bears? I thought this thread was about loading the 38/44.

I don't think it was mentioned on the previous page, so here is some info put together by another member:
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/High%20Speed%20.38%20Special%20Loads.pdf
..

Great reference there. Like him I have a ton of .38spl cases and a GP-100 so might do some of his loads.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

A few years ago, I made mention here of plans to extend the 38 Special's envelope a little past +P ratings--but certainly not into the 38/44 realm. One of my correspondents here with whom I'm known to do a bit of horse-trading got in my ear post haste, and in no uncertain terms informed me that if I even DREAMED of trying such loads in a very nice S&W Model 10 x 5" I bought from him that I had better wake up and apologize, and perhaps return the revolver to prevent such abuses.

I hold this man's views in high respect, and the strength of his comments gave me a little pause. And, woke me up. When there are 357 Magnum revolvers on hand, but no 38/44-capable revolvers in inventory......it is DUMB to beef up the 38 Special past +P ratings. I don't and won't shoot Special-length cases in Magnum chambers. I have good numbers of 357 Magnum casings on hand, as well. On careful review, there was and is no justification for loading the 38 Special past standard pressures to service my current bevy of Specials or to practice for CCW venues--I don't carry a 38 Special for this purpose presently. This in no way is meant as a general recommendation, but is just how I see the sitch for me after some thoughtful consideration. If anything, I'm more likely to Special-ize my Magnum revolvers' loads in Magnum cases with 38 Special loads + 10% to give Special performance to the MagRevs without the chore of cleaning out crud/carbon rings left by use of Special brass in Mag chambers.

[robertbank]

Good advice Al as always.

Take Care

Bob

[catkiller45]

I'm using 12.4 grains of
2400 under a 158 gr swc
and gas checks. 1300 +/-
fps in 38 brass. Very accurate
at 25 yards.I think it would
be good for deer.

[ddixie884]

Keith designed the 358429 specifically for this .38Special revolver.

http://www.fototime.com/D1C1E88A3D3343A/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/E2A985B719EF63F/orig.jpg

Jerry
Yes, he did..............

[catkiller45]

Can you shoot the 38/44 in rifle. Rossi 92 38//357.

[RJM52]

..yes.

Your rifle is rated for .357s which will run 35k+ PSI... .38-44s only run 28k...