Looking for help identifying a rifle

[Gdsjr77]

Hello All, I was directed to this forum by a friend that said there were many knowledgable people here.

I have owned this rifle for the last 18 years. It was given to me by someone who knew nothing about it. From what I can tell it is an old Military rifle that has been highly modified (butchered). The engravings have been worn almost completely off and re-stamped with 7mm and some sort of serial number. It is a Mauser action, and the only part of the engravings I can clearly make out is "LOEW" on the 2nd line and the last 2 letters on the first line are "OL". My friend who is much more knowlegable than I on rifles said it looked to be close to a 303 British since it was rimmed? The 303 casing was close, but would not fit. Just a little to big and would not catch in the bolt.

I would simply like to find the right cartridge and determine if it is safe to shoot? When the bolt is pulled back it seems to be very loose. We weren't sure if its the wrong bolt, or simply worn? Below are some pictures. Thanks in advance for the help!

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/gdsjr77/IMG_1109.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/gdsjr77/media/IMG_1109.jpg.html)http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/gdsjr77/IMG_1110.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/gdsjr77/media/IMG_1110.jpg.html)http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/gdsjr77/IMG_1115.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/gdsjr77/media/IMG_1115.jpg.html)http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/gdsjr77/IMG_1114.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/gdsjr77/media/IMG_1114.jpg.html)http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/gdsjr77/IMG_1116.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/gdsjr77/media/IMG_1116.jpg.html)http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/gdsjr77/IMG_1117.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/gdsjr77/media/IMG_1117.jpg.html)http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/gdsjr77/IMG_1120.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/gdsjr77/media/IMG_1120.jpg.html)

[Mk42gunner]

Welcome aboard,

You have what looks to me like a 93 Mauser, due to the flat bottomed bolt. It has been drilled and tapped for a scope mount, at least the front ring has, I can't tell about the rear from the pictures I can see.

It is probably chambered for the 7X57 Mauser cartridge, I see no evidence of it requiring a rimmed cartridge.

Some one who knows more should be along in a little while to tell you more.

Robert

[Gdsjr77]

Thank you sir! 7x57 came up in conversation earlier today, we did not have one on hand to check.

Yes, the rear has also been tapped. The stock is aftermarket….Fajen. Its been completely converted from original, the stamping of "7mm" does not look original.

[3006guns]

The entire stamping on the side should say "Ludwig Lowe Berlin". Lowe built a large number of the early Mausers and they were VERY high quality.

[pietro]

.

It's a military Mauser, deliberately designed with loose bolt fitment so they will be reliably operable under dirty/muddy battlefield conditions.

The barrel appears to be the original military bbl, stripped of the military sights, and the trigger is also the original military.

The front scope mount holes' C/L doesn't appear to be inline with the bore - it could just be the pic, or a problem with zeroing.

The M93 is a "cock-on-closing" small ring Mauser.

It apparently has been partially what is called "sporterized" (aka: a "project" gun) - i.e. only the sights removed, the military stock replaced, and the receiver D/T'd for scope mounts.

A proper/full conversion would entail, at a minimum, the installation of a commercial/adjustable trigger, a low-scope safety ( some triggers have a low/side safety) and a complete metal polish/refinish, in addition to the restocking that's been done.

The military-issue safety lever and the bent bolt handle would most likely not clear a scope, unless very high rings are mounted.

The 7x57 chambering is a good hunting cartridge - provided the bore doesn't resemble the inside of an old sewer pipe.

Any new-to-you rifle shouldn't be considered safe to shoot (especially a mil-surp) before a qualified gunsmith (not some AR parts-changer) checks the action & bolt lugs for microscopic cracking and for proper headspace.





.

[Gdsjr77]

Agreed on the safety aspect. Part of the reason I have had it for so long, yet I have never fired it. I don't chance things like that.

Nice to know that the loose bolt is normal, the more I search the more that seems to be the case. "Sporterized" is the case with this one. The barrel is clean and the rifling in good shape. Obviously I have no clue about possible microscopic cracking. Im sure a gunsmith is in my future.

Thanks again

[leeggen]

Here is some imfo on the 1917, hope it helps.
CD
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/the-model-1917-us-enfield/

[Bullshop Junior]

Its hard to make a Mauser unsafe to shoot...

[Bullshop Junior]

The bolt should also be serial numbered somewhere, so you can check and see if the numbers match the reciever. Id say it is still chambered for the original 7x57 and would try shooting it i the bolt number matches. If the bolt number doesn't match, I would just be careful and check for headspace issues.

[Who's this Guy ?]

I think this is a Spanish 1916 Rifle that was reworked from a 1893 Long rifle or 1895 carbine. Ludwig and Lowe later became DWM in the late 1890's. 7mm is 7x57. Some of these were even later converted to 7.62x51/.308 with the 7mm scrubbed off. Don't take what I said completely to the bank, do some more research on the 1916 Spanish short Rifle.

[Dutchman]

It does resemble a m/1893-16 short rifle only because of that retro gas escape hole. Most of this model we see are Spanish made though the early m/1893 Spanish contract long rifles were made by Ludwig Loewe of Berlin. These were the same rifles used by the Spanish in Cuba in 1898 that showed the world what was coming in small arms technology. These rifles opened a severe case of whoopass on American soldiers in the Spanish-American War.

That 7mm marking is not original. It was put there probably by the same hammer mechanic who removed the rear sight base. Notice all those marks/dings where the rear sight base was... It was not skillfully removed.

That serial number stamping on the receiver is way too sloppy to be original but the number does fall into known serial numbers of Loewe rifles. The number may have been copied from the number on the barrel shank.

http://masterton.us/Spanmauhome

There appears to be the remains of some crest on the top of the receiver. It looks like a portion of a perfect circle. It does not come close to matching any of the Spanish crests on this page:

http://masterton.us/Spanish_Markings

It would take a ~forensic~ examination with magnifying glass to gleen any more information from that rifle.

Your rifle looks like....forgive my bluntness.... a beat up, worn out ***. However, seeing that the rifling is good, as you say, I wouldn't hesitate to make a cast bullet shooter out of it but I'd not think about shooting full power ammo out of it anymore. It is, after all, around 116 years old, give or take. Be kind to it :).

Good information on the m/1893 Loewe Mauser:
http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/1893-spanish-american-war-mauser-3.htm

This is what the side rail looked like originally.

http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/images/1893-spanish-american-war-mauser-3/1893-spanish-american-war-mauser-3.jpg

[dbosman]

Since you have it in pieces, how about a chamber cast? That would clinch the cartridge question.
Your gun smith could do it for you when it's being checked for safety.

[Gdsjr77]

Since you have it in pieces, how about a chamber cast? That would clinch the cartridge question.
Your gun smith could do it for you when it's being checked for safety.

That was mentioned to me by a friend. I have no experience with this….are we talking $100 or $500?

Bare with me, since I am a newbie, but I am a little mixed up on the Mauser model I have. As described in the posted link above (American Rifleman), the 1917 sounds similar with the nickel barrel. All others that I have seen are black. It has the gas escape of an 1893-16. I can definitely tell you that it is spanish. Its hard to make out from the pictures above, but in the 2nd photo I posted you can see the last two letters of the word that precedes "LOEW". The last two letters are "RA" and from the other pics I have seen (like the one above) this is "MANUFACTURA".

And trust me, I don't mind the bluntness. I know the rifle has been used and abused. I am appreciative of all info given! Does anyone know of a good gunsmith to visit in the Frederick MD area (or within 100 miles or so). Someone that won't look at it, laugh and tell me I ma better off buying a new one.

[Gdsjr77]

By the listings on this site, it would be an 1896…..that is if the sledge hammer stamp is correct. http://masterton.us/Foreign_Serial_Numbers

I will try to take some better pics and maybe disassemble the bolt. Maybe there is a marking of some sort, so far I have not seen any marks other than on the back of the safety switch (3 position). They are unclear as well, best I can tell is "C55".

[Kent Fowler]

Looks exactly like my 1909 Argentine Cavalry Carbine.

[Dutchman]

Looks exactly like my 1909 Argentine Cavalry Carbine.

Your m/1909 Mauser doesn't have a flat edge on the bottom of the bolt face nor a 2 lug bolt.

Dutch

[Dutchman]

By the listings on this site, it would be an 1896…..

That 1896 is year of manufacture, not the model year. The model year is 1893.

Look under bright light the top of the receiver ring and see if there are any remaining marks ever so faint. That circle remnant is very telling but I can't figure what it's trying to tell us:).

Dutch

[leadman]

I have 2 1893 Mausers that also have the info on the left side of the receiver missing. Also read an old article on what some used to do to sporterize these mil-surp guns and apparrently the drilling of the gas escape hole on the side of the receiver was sometimes done by a gunsmith or an owner to try to make the gun safer. Don't know how accurate this info is.

[Kent Fowler]

Your m/1909 Mauser doesn't have a flat edge on the bottom of the bolt face nor a 2 lug bolt.

Dutch

I thought all 98 Mauser type actions had a two lug bolt. Only difference I can see is it's a tad shorter than the regular 98.

[Gdsjr77]

That 1896 is year of manufacture, not the model year. The model year is 1893.

Look under bright light the top of the receiver ring and see if there are any remaining marks ever so faint. That circle remnant is very telling but I can't figure what it's trying to tell us:).

Dutch

It is rubbed pretty smooth….the only indication at all is the slight circle at the bottom. This can be seen below. http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/gdsjr77/IMG_1131.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/gdsjr77/media/IMG_1131.jpg.html)

I believe mine is nearly identical to this one.http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=qX-mSS5uJIQE3M&tbnid=OkQv-gFEPXsogM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunauction.com%2Fbuy%2F115869 88%2F&ei=rtOfUuSyB6rPsATJ14GABQ&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cWc&psig=AFQjCNHdMVjfX5bK3fSOZW8mGk9cHM9f0w&ust=1386292498347820

[Dutchman]

It is rubbed pretty smooth….the only indication at all is the slight circle at the bottom. This can be seen below. http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii57/gdsjr77/IMG_1131.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/gdsjr77/media/IMG_1131.jpg.html)

I believe mine is nearly identical to this one.

No, that one is made in Spain at the Oviedo arsenal. Yours is German made.

Dutch

[Dutchman]

I thought all 98 Mauser type actions had a two lug bolt. Only difference I can see is it's a tad shorter than the regular 98.

98 Mausers have two forward lugs and one rear safety lug. The 98 is a much better designed action than the earlier 93-95-96 action. Much beefier receiver and much better gas handling characteristics.

The Argentine m/1909, of which I have 2, is far and above a much superior action compared to the m/1893 Mauser.

Dutch

[Dutchman]

This is a Spanish-made m/1893 long rifle made in 1902 at Oviedo arsenal.

http://images47.fotki.com/v1474/photos/2/28344/981703/s1-vi.jpg

This rifle has a new beech stock. If it's original to 1902 I don't know. The gas escape port and thumb relief cut in the left side wall of the receiver may have been normal upgrades by 1902 over those earlier rifles that had no thumb cut or gas escape hole.

http://images109.fotki.com/v78/photos/2/28344/981703/s6-vi.jpg

The rifle stood in an Indiana barn for who knows how long before I bought it at auction about 2000 for $65.

http://images109.fotki.com/v79/photos/2/28344/981703/s3-vi.jpg

[Kent Fowler]

98 Mausers have two forward lugs and one rear safety lug. The 98 is a much better designed action than the earlier 93-95-96 action. Much beefier receiver and much better gas handling characteristics.

The Argentine m/1909, of which I have 2, is far and above a much superior action compared to the m/1893 Mauser.

Dutch
Agree ,wholeheartedly, with what you posted, but I don't have a '93 Mauser. I have a 1909 Argentine Calvary Carbine and a 1909 Argentine rifle both in 7.65mm. Which, as you say, are far superior to the '93. Also both are slick as glass. Just wish the heat treating/carburization had been tad better back in those early days. But have no problems with the caliber as they are.

[MtGun44]

Definitely agree that the 'Loew' faint mark proves original German manufacture. The gas relief
hole was not original, added later, as was the 7mm marking. Agree totally with Dutchman on the
rear sight Bubba job.

If the bore is good, it could be a useful rifle. Try a 175 gr factory 7x57 like Federal or Remington
and if it groups well, you have a well worn, not so beautiful hunting and plinking rifle. If it doesn't
group, you have a project.. . . . . .

Bill