ohland
11-30-2013, 08:33 PM
Oh my, the Lyman '58 HCB also has more...
Scrounged up some descriptions for .357 / .358 diameter molds from a variety of sources. If some of you-all have better descriptions from Ideal or Lyman catalogs, please post to this thread with the correction or description of the boolit.
Disclaimer: It is well known that (at times) cherries have been used too long, with undersized cavities resulting. Some throats are too big compared to the groove diameter. Over time, manufacturers held different tolerances and dimensions for the chamber and bore. Different alloys will turn out different diameters. What follows below is simply a collection of the various Ideal and Lyman mold descriptions, which does NOT mean that any particular mold will cast a boolit like you expect. What does this mean? Slug your bore if you don't know the bore/groove dimensions for your gun. If the mold is undersize, you may have to beagle / lap it out some. [ed]
NOTE: Any loads mentioned are taken from period documents, and are not in any way tested. Please refer to modern loading manuals for safe loads. [ed]
v/r,
A fellow servant to the heavy metal :coffeecom
.358 is the proper diameter of bullets for all arms using the .38 Smith & Wesson
cartridges; it is also the correct size to fit the shells for the old .38 Short, .38
Long, and .38 Extra Long. They will not, however, fit the barrels that are bored
for the outside lubricated bullets.
357443 Designed for the .357 Mag. and .38 Spec. with special crimping groove in top band. (PB, SWC, 158 - TP is 395)
357446 The most popular bullet for the .357 Mag. Can also be used in the .38 Spec. (PB, SWC, 162 - TP is 429)
357453 A long nose semi wad cutter for the .357 magnum. (PB, SWC, 151 - TP is 429)
357511 Designed by Jim Harvey. (GC, SWC Core, 107 - TP is ?)
357512 Designed by Jim Harvey. (GC, SWC Core, 130 - TP is ?)
#357514 156 gr. ??? Z
3589 (GC, FN, 282 - TP is ?)
35842 (PB, SP, 195 - TP is ?)
35863 (PB, WC, 148 - TP is ?)
35864. This is the regular .38 S. & W. bullet. (PB, RN, 145 - TP is 311)
35865. This is the same shape as the regular .38 Long Colt's inside lubricated bullet. (See No. 35870.) It has not the cavity at the base, and we do not recommend it for those arms, because it will not expand and take the rifling, although it fits the shell correctly, and seats with same tool. (PB, RN, 155 - TP is ?)
35866. Round ball for short range indoor or gallery practice for the .38 Smith & Wesson. Fits all the shells for the .38 Short, .38 Long and .38 Extra Long. Round ball for .35 caliber rifles, and also for short range in .38 Smith & Wesson. For use in rifles follow the same principle of loading and same powder charge as for 31113. For revolvers use 5 grains FFFg black powder. (71)
35870. Standard bullet. Regular bullet for the .38 Long Colt's cartridge, the cartridge used in the old model .38 double action Colt Military revolvers. The hollow base causes the bullet to expand to fill the grooves. Powder charge 17 grains FFg black, or 3 grains weight Hercules Bullseye powder. (HB, RN, 150 - TP is 311)
35871 Designed for regular .38-44 S. & W. Target revolver. (PB, RN, 146 - TP is 311)
35872 Special light weight bullet for the .38-44 S. & W. Target revolver. (PB, RN, 115 - TP is 430)
35873 Same as 36072 except with a flat point and hollow base for expanding. Good for .38 Colt Navy. (HB, FN, 105 - TP is 430)
35875 This bullet is correct for the old style .38 Stevens and Maynard. (PB, FN, 160, 200 - TP is 425)
35887 (PB, WC, 140 - TP is ?)
35891 (PB, WC, 148 - TP is ?)
35893 (GC, SP, 125 - TP is ?)
35897 (GC, RN, 232 - TP is ?)
358101 (PB, WC, 75 - TP is ?)
358156 Designed by Ray Thompson. (GC, SWC, 155 - TP is 429)
358158 (Heel, RN, 125 - TP is ?)
358159. This is the standard .38 Short Outside Lubricated bullet. The heel or base of bullets of this style fits the shell; the largest diameter that fits the barrel
is .375, same as .38-55 M. (Heel, RN, 150 - TP is 311)
358160. This is the regular factory bullet for the .38 Long outside lubrication.
For the new .38 Long inside lubrication see bullet No. 35870. (Heel, RN, 150 - TP is 311)
358161. This is the standard .38 Extra Long bullet. There has been much trouble about this cartridge. The old Ballard rifles were all bored and rifled for the O. L. bullet, which is .375, but all of the factory ammunition has a straight, one-sized ball .358 in diameter that fits the shell only. For such the Ideal Tool No. 1 is made, which is correct for the Wesson rifles, but not for the Ballards, as the ball will drop through the barrel. For the Ballards we would recommend bullet No. 35870, which may be seated in the regular No. 1 tool. (PB, RN, 145 - TP is 311)
358210 Regular bullet for the .38 S&W military revolver. (PB, RN, 167 - TP is 311)
358212 Another round nosed bullet for the .38 Special or .38 Auto. (PB, RN, 146 - TP is 311)
358238 Standard bullet. A fine bullet on the Kephart design for short range, up to 200 yards, in .35 Winchester, .35 Newton, .35 Whelen, and .35 Magnum cartridges. Size cases to hold bullet friction tight without crimp, mouth of case to come just to bottom of front band. (PB, RN, 163, 220 - TP is 311)
358242 Standard bullet for .38 Colt's Automatic Pistol. Cast of 1 part Tin to 15 Lead. Powder charge 4 grains weight Hercules Bullseye powder. No. 10 tool only furnished. Very satisfactory load and much cheaper than factory ammunition. (PB, RN, 121 - TP is 311)
358246 Standard bullet for .38 Smith & Wesson bullet. Case to crimp in top groove preventing bullet from receding. The extra band in front gives a longer bearing for the rifling. Powder charge 12 grains FFFg black, or 2 grains weight Hercules Bullseye powder. (PB, RN 147 - TP is 311)
358250 Excellent for the .38 Spec. Many prefer this to 358311 because of the better distribution of lubricant. (PB, RN, 156 - TP is 311)
358269 A round nose bullet for the .38 Auto, also a good light bullet for the .38 Special. (PB, RN, 129 - TP is 311)
358271 Designed by B. F. Wilder, recommended by A.L.A. Himmelwright, Past President of W.S. Revolver Assoc. (PB, SWC, 150 - TP is 429)
358302 (PB, WC(?), 112 - TP is 302)
358311 Standard bullet for revolvers using .38S. & W. Special and .38 Colt Special Cartridge. These two wide bands are strong and hold the rifling well. Case should be slightly crimped in bevel groove. (PB, RN, 158 - TP is 311)
358313 (PB, FN, 170 - TP is ?)
358315 Standard bullet for .35 caliber Remington rifles. High velocity and very fine accuracy, with less wear on the barrel. For autoloading and tubular magazine rifles crimp lightly in bevel groove. These bullets may also be used in other .35 caliber and 9 m/m rifles. (GC, RN, 200 - TP is 311)
358318 For .35 caliber Winchester Model 95 rifle. Excellent accuracy, with light recoil, and no wear on the barrel. Good killing power on almost all big game. Can also be used in .35 Whelen and .35 magnum rifles. For .35 Magnum use 2 grains more powder than given for .35 Winchester. (GC, RN, 245 - TP is 311)
358339 Good light weight blunt nose design for the .38 Spec. or .357 Mag. (PB, RN, 136 - TP is 430)
358344 Square nose bullet for .38 Special designed by C. C. Crossman. Cuts a full size clean hole, giving shooter full count. (PB, WC, 150 - TP is 344)
358345 Designed by J. B. Crabtree for a clean cutting bullet in the .38 Special. (PB, SWC, 115 - TP is 429)
358356 A short, blunt nose bullet for the .38 Special. (PB, RN, 108 - TP is 430)
358363 A light short range bullet for the .38 Special to be used with 2 grains of Bullseye. (HB, RN, 70 - TP is 395)
358385 A round nose design with crimping groove for the .38 Auto. (PB, RN, 150 - TP is 311)
358394 A good short, hollow base bullet for cellar loads with the .38 Special. (HB, RN, 87 - TP is 430)
358395 Designed by the late Ed McGivern of Lewiston, Montana. Seated deeply in case and crimped on forward band makes excellent mid-range bullet. (PB, WC, 148 - TP is 395)
358396 A round nose bullet for the .38 Special. (PB, RN, ? - TP is 311)
358416 Colt special type used to same sizing diameter and with same charges as 358311. The flat point is desired by many humane societies for purposes of animal destruction. A very accurate and satisfactory bullet. (PB, FN, 158 - TP is 411)
358425 This bullet is highly recommended by Sergeant J. H. Young of the Portland Police Department, one of the best police shots in the United States. Sergeant Young states that for indoor shooting with a charge of about 2 1/2 grains of Bullseye this is not surpassed in accuracy by any other wad cutter bullet of corresponding light weight. Designed originally by F. L. Sanders of Gladstone, Oregon. (PB, WC, 121 - TP is 402)
358429 Designed by Elmer Keith for .38 Special and .357 Mag. (PB, SWC, 168 - TP is 429)
358430 Designed by John Leonard of Avon, Conn. Very accurate in the .38 Spec. (PB, RN, 150, 200 - TP is 430)
358431 Same as 358429 except it has a hollow base. Designed by Elmer Keith for .38 Spec. and .357 Mag. (HB, SWC, 160 - TP is 429)
358432 Wad cutter designed by H. A. Nott, cuts very clean holes and is most popular for .357 Mag. and .38 Spec. cartridges. (PB, SWC, 160 - TP is 429)
358439 Designed by Elmer Keith, very accurate and good game bullet. (PB, HP, SWC, 154 - TP is 429)
358477 Semi-wad cutter bullet designed for the .357 or .38 Special. (PB, SWC, 150 - TP is 429)
358480 A popular lightweight semi-wad-cutter which cuts clean holes. (PB, SWC, 133 - TP is 429)
358495 Seated deeply in case and crimped on forward band makes excellent mid-range bullet. Same bullet as 358395 except solid base instead of hollow base. (PB, WC, 141 - TP is 429)
358500 Prot-X-Bore bullet with zinc washer. (Zinc washer, SWC, 149 - TP is ?)
358501 124 gr. ??? Z
358502 Prot-X-Bore bullet with zinc washer. (Zinc washer, WC, 125 - TP is ?) [Dark Canyon says 119. ed.]
358503 Prot-X-Bore bullet with zinc washer. (Zinc washer, SWC, 149 - TP is ?) [Dark Canyon says 125. ed.]
358504 135 gr. ??? Z
358624 170gr. SWC Composite
358627 (GC, SWC, 215 - TP is 429)
358665 (PB, FN, 158 - TP is 495)
Scrounged up some descriptions for .357 / .358 diameter molds from a variety of sources. If some of you-all have better descriptions from Ideal or Lyman catalogs, please post to this thread with the correction or description of the boolit.
Disclaimer: It is well known that (at times) cherries have been used too long, with undersized cavities resulting. Some throats are too big compared to the groove diameter. Over time, manufacturers held different tolerances and dimensions for the chamber and bore. Different alloys will turn out different diameters. What follows below is simply a collection of the various Ideal and Lyman mold descriptions, which does NOT mean that any particular mold will cast a boolit like you expect. What does this mean? Slug your bore if you don't know the bore/groove dimensions for your gun. If the mold is undersize, you may have to beagle / lap it out some. [ed]
NOTE: Any loads mentioned are taken from period documents, and are not in any way tested. Please refer to modern loading manuals for safe loads. [ed]
v/r,
A fellow servant to the heavy metal :coffeecom
.358 is the proper diameter of bullets for all arms using the .38 Smith & Wesson
cartridges; it is also the correct size to fit the shells for the old .38 Short, .38
Long, and .38 Extra Long. They will not, however, fit the barrels that are bored
for the outside lubricated bullets.
357443 Designed for the .357 Mag. and .38 Spec. with special crimping groove in top band. (PB, SWC, 158 - TP is 395)
357446 The most popular bullet for the .357 Mag. Can also be used in the .38 Spec. (PB, SWC, 162 - TP is 429)
357453 A long nose semi wad cutter for the .357 magnum. (PB, SWC, 151 - TP is 429)
357511 Designed by Jim Harvey. (GC, SWC Core, 107 - TP is ?)
357512 Designed by Jim Harvey. (GC, SWC Core, 130 - TP is ?)
#357514 156 gr. ??? Z
3589 (GC, FN, 282 - TP is ?)
35842 (PB, SP, 195 - TP is ?)
35863 (PB, WC, 148 - TP is ?)
35864. This is the regular .38 S. & W. bullet. (PB, RN, 145 - TP is 311)
35865. This is the same shape as the regular .38 Long Colt's inside lubricated bullet. (See No. 35870.) It has not the cavity at the base, and we do not recommend it for those arms, because it will not expand and take the rifling, although it fits the shell correctly, and seats with same tool. (PB, RN, 155 - TP is ?)
35866. Round ball for short range indoor or gallery practice for the .38 Smith & Wesson. Fits all the shells for the .38 Short, .38 Long and .38 Extra Long. Round ball for .35 caliber rifles, and also for short range in .38 Smith & Wesson. For use in rifles follow the same principle of loading and same powder charge as for 31113. For revolvers use 5 grains FFFg black powder. (71)
35870. Standard bullet. Regular bullet for the .38 Long Colt's cartridge, the cartridge used in the old model .38 double action Colt Military revolvers. The hollow base causes the bullet to expand to fill the grooves. Powder charge 17 grains FFg black, or 3 grains weight Hercules Bullseye powder. (HB, RN, 150 - TP is 311)
35871 Designed for regular .38-44 S. & W. Target revolver. (PB, RN, 146 - TP is 311)
35872 Special light weight bullet for the .38-44 S. & W. Target revolver. (PB, RN, 115 - TP is 430)
35873 Same as 36072 except with a flat point and hollow base for expanding. Good for .38 Colt Navy. (HB, FN, 105 - TP is 430)
35875 This bullet is correct for the old style .38 Stevens and Maynard. (PB, FN, 160, 200 - TP is 425)
35887 (PB, WC, 140 - TP is ?)
35891 (PB, WC, 148 - TP is ?)
35893 (GC, SP, 125 - TP is ?)
35897 (GC, RN, 232 - TP is ?)
358101 (PB, WC, 75 - TP is ?)
358156 Designed by Ray Thompson. (GC, SWC, 155 - TP is 429)
358158 (Heel, RN, 125 - TP is ?)
358159. This is the standard .38 Short Outside Lubricated bullet. The heel or base of bullets of this style fits the shell; the largest diameter that fits the barrel
is .375, same as .38-55 M. (Heel, RN, 150 - TP is 311)
358160. This is the regular factory bullet for the .38 Long outside lubrication.
For the new .38 Long inside lubrication see bullet No. 35870. (Heel, RN, 150 - TP is 311)
358161. This is the standard .38 Extra Long bullet. There has been much trouble about this cartridge. The old Ballard rifles were all bored and rifled for the O. L. bullet, which is .375, but all of the factory ammunition has a straight, one-sized ball .358 in diameter that fits the shell only. For such the Ideal Tool No. 1 is made, which is correct for the Wesson rifles, but not for the Ballards, as the ball will drop through the barrel. For the Ballards we would recommend bullet No. 35870, which may be seated in the regular No. 1 tool. (PB, RN, 145 - TP is 311)
358210 Regular bullet for the .38 S&W military revolver. (PB, RN, 167 - TP is 311)
358212 Another round nosed bullet for the .38 Special or .38 Auto. (PB, RN, 146 - TP is 311)
358238 Standard bullet. A fine bullet on the Kephart design for short range, up to 200 yards, in .35 Winchester, .35 Newton, .35 Whelen, and .35 Magnum cartridges. Size cases to hold bullet friction tight without crimp, mouth of case to come just to bottom of front band. (PB, RN, 163, 220 - TP is 311)
358242 Standard bullet for .38 Colt's Automatic Pistol. Cast of 1 part Tin to 15 Lead. Powder charge 4 grains weight Hercules Bullseye powder. No. 10 tool only furnished. Very satisfactory load and much cheaper than factory ammunition. (PB, RN, 121 - TP is 311)
358246 Standard bullet for .38 Smith & Wesson bullet. Case to crimp in top groove preventing bullet from receding. The extra band in front gives a longer bearing for the rifling. Powder charge 12 grains FFFg black, or 2 grains weight Hercules Bullseye powder. (PB, RN 147 - TP is 311)
358250 Excellent for the .38 Spec. Many prefer this to 358311 because of the better distribution of lubricant. (PB, RN, 156 - TP is 311)
358269 A round nose bullet for the .38 Auto, also a good light bullet for the .38 Special. (PB, RN, 129 - TP is 311)
358271 Designed by B. F. Wilder, recommended by A.L.A. Himmelwright, Past President of W.S. Revolver Assoc. (PB, SWC, 150 - TP is 429)
358302 (PB, WC(?), 112 - TP is 302)
358311 Standard bullet for revolvers using .38S. & W. Special and .38 Colt Special Cartridge. These two wide bands are strong and hold the rifling well. Case should be slightly crimped in bevel groove. (PB, RN, 158 - TP is 311)
358313 (PB, FN, 170 - TP is ?)
358315 Standard bullet for .35 caliber Remington rifles. High velocity and very fine accuracy, with less wear on the barrel. For autoloading and tubular magazine rifles crimp lightly in bevel groove. These bullets may also be used in other .35 caliber and 9 m/m rifles. (GC, RN, 200 - TP is 311)
358318 For .35 caliber Winchester Model 95 rifle. Excellent accuracy, with light recoil, and no wear on the barrel. Good killing power on almost all big game. Can also be used in .35 Whelen and .35 magnum rifles. For .35 Magnum use 2 grains more powder than given for .35 Winchester. (GC, RN, 245 - TP is 311)
358339 Good light weight blunt nose design for the .38 Spec. or .357 Mag. (PB, RN, 136 - TP is 430)
358344 Square nose bullet for .38 Special designed by C. C. Crossman. Cuts a full size clean hole, giving shooter full count. (PB, WC, 150 - TP is 344)
358345 Designed by J. B. Crabtree for a clean cutting bullet in the .38 Special. (PB, SWC, 115 - TP is 429)
358356 A short, blunt nose bullet for the .38 Special. (PB, RN, 108 - TP is 430)
358363 A light short range bullet for the .38 Special to be used with 2 grains of Bullseye. (HB, RN, 70 - TP is 395)
358385 A round nose design with crimping groove for the .38 Auto. (PB, RN, 150 - TP is 311)
358394 A good short, hollow base bullet for cellar loads with the .38 Special. (HB, RN, 87 - TP is 430)
358395 Designed by the late Ed McGivern of Lewiston, Montana. Seated deeply in case and crimped on forward band makes excellent mid-range bullet. (PB, WC, 148 - TP is 395)
358396 A round nose bullet for the .38 Special. (PB, RN, ? - TP is 311)
358416 Colt special type used to same sizing diameter and with same charges as 358311. The flat point is desired by many humane societies for purposes of animal destruction. A very accurate and satisfactory bullet. (PB, FN, 158 - TP is 411)
358425 This bullet is highly recommended by Sergeant J. H. Young of the Portland Police Department, one of the best police shots in the United States. Sergeant Young states that for indoor shooting with a charge of about 2 1/2 grains of Bullseye this is not surpassed in accuracy by any other wad cutter bullet of corresponding light weight. Designed originally by F. L. Sanders of Gladstone, Oregon. (PB, WC, 121 - TP is 402)
358429 Designed by Elmer Keith for .38 Special and .357 Mag. (PB, SWC, 168 - TP is 429)
358430 Designed by John Leonard of Avon, Conn. Very accurate in the .38 Spec. (PB, RN, 150, 200 - TP is 430)
358431 Same as 358429 except it has a hollow base. Designed by Elmer Keith for .38 Spec. and .357 Mag. (HB, SWC, 160 - TP is 429)
358432 Wad cutter designed by H. A. Nott, cuts very clean holes and is most popular for .357 Mag. and .38 Spec. cartridges. (PB, SWC, 160 - TP is 429)
358439 Designed by Elmer Keith, very accurate and good game bullet. (PB, HP, SWC, 154 - TP is 429)
358477 Semi-wad cutter bullet designed for the .357 or .38 Special. (PB, SWC, 150 - TP is 429)
358480 A popular lightweight semi-wad-cutter which cuts clean holes. (PB, SWC, 133 - TP is 429)
358495 Seated deeply in case and crimped on forward band makes excellent mid-range bullet. Same bullet as 358395 except solid base instead of hollow base. (PB, WC, 141 - TP is 429)
358500 Prot-X-Bore bullet with zinc washer. (Zinc washer, SWC, 149 - TP is ?)
358501 124 gr. ??? Z
358502 Prot-X-Bore bullet with zinc washer. (Zinc washer, WC, 125 - TP is ?) [Dark Canyon says 119. ed.]
358503 Prot-X-Bore bullet with zinc washer. (Zinc washer, SWC, 149 - TP is ?) [Dark Canyon says 125. ed.]
358504 135 gr. ??? Z
358624 170gr. SWC Composite
358627 (GC, SWC, 215 - TP is 429)
358665 (PB, FN, 158 - TP is 495)