Shortest barrel leanth

[Bullshop Junior]

So, ive got one of the NEF Tracker 2 barrels rifled 12ga. Its 28" long. I wanna cut it down for using in the brush and as a truck gun. What is the shortest i can get away with, from where to barrel hits the reciever to the end. I heard some feds dont count the chamber in the leanth and i dont wanna get into trouble

[220swiftfn]

The feds measure from the muzzle to the breach face with the action closed. The legal length is 18" for a shotgun, but every one that I've cut has been 18.25-18.5, to keep my butt legal (if you cut it right to 18", and loose a little squaring it up.......OOPS!!!!)


.....or you could pay the fee, get the stamp for an SBR/S, and cut it to whatever you want.......


Dan

[Bullshop Junior]

18" is probably fine. What about minimum over all leanth?

[Combat Diver]

IIRC a type 1 shotgun is min 18" bbl/min 26" OAL. Anything shorter requires a SBS license.


CD

[bikerbeans]

BS Jr,


You might have to load with a bit faster powder once you chop your slug gun as you will loose some velocity with the shorter barrel. With a 1oz fullbore slug & Blue Dot in a 20ga tracker II, I lost 150 fps between a 24" barrel and 18.5" barrel.


Just for grins I shot a 20ga fullbore slug over I4759 in my 18.5" Tracker II, I think most of the powder burnt on the ground. Gonna try it again at dusk and have my kid video it.:bigsmyl2:


BB

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Brother BikerBeans, just to let you know even in my 24 inch barrel when I used 4759 powder with Fed. 209A magnum primers I would see unburnt powder in the hulls when ejecting the hulls.

Like you said for each inch shorter the barrel you loose about 25 fps and this test was done way back in early 70's and that's for other powders and if you carefully check your 4759 your figure could be easily around 200 or more fps, sadly!

That was one reason why I bought TC Pro Hunter in 12 & 20 gauge with 28 inch SS barrels but little did I know that the barrels are not very strong like the H & R Ultra Slug Hunter for $279 a far better bang for the money!!!

Feel free to read my post on faster buck shot loads here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...uck+shot+loads
&
VdoMemories Blazing Buck & Ball or Buck & Slugs post here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...zing+buck+ball

Be on the look out for more pure Gold!

Passing the torch of knowledge is something done out of genetic responsibility!

Hoping it helps.
Best regards,
Ajay Madan
Super Blazing Sabots
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
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http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/slug-gu...old-is-gold-!/[/url]
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We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.

[6pt-sika]

You can go to a Class 3 dealer have the barrel cut down as short as you like and pay the tax stamp and it's perfectly legal .

However practicality in a shotgun barrel for "practical" use is another thing .

The gunsmith shop I operate out of has a Class 3 sales and manufacture permit . We have done a good number of short barrel shotguns . Mater of fact we've done 4 or 5 double barrel 16's and 20's that were cut down to about 6" and had the stocks cut down to just the pistol grip .

The fellow that owns the place has a Remington 870 12 gauge with a 13" barrel and full length stock that he carries in the cane brakes down in southeastern Arkansas when he piggie hunts .

For my own personal use I've found 20" barrels to be about optimum . Had an 1100 and an 870 with factory smoothbore slug barrels that did nicely in thick brush with buckshot and Foster slugs . In a side by side or over under 24-26 inch barrels are a smidge better for me from the balance factor !

[Bullshop Junior]

Ok. But what if i stick it on a SB2 rifle frame, can I then cut it to 16"?

And whats the rules in canada?

[NoZombies]

Ok. But what if i stick it on a SB2 rifle frame, can I then cut it to 16"?

And whats the rules in canada?

I don't know a lot about CA laws, but please make sure you do before doing anything that might get you in trouble.

As for the other question, Since the caliber of the gun is still a shotgun caliber, even though it's rifled, it's still classified as a shotgun. Basically, the projectile isn't the important part, it's the shell that it uses, in this case, a shotgun shell. I would suggest not shortening any shotgun gauge barrel to anything shorter than 18" unless doing so with an approved tax stamp in hand.

Hope that helps some!

[pipehand]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?222085-ANother-shotgun-question&p=2506120&viewfull=1#post2506120

[Apocalypse]

...

And whats the rules in canada?

If the barrel left the factory at any length, it is legal. If the barrel is later modified by anyone, 18" is the minimum length it must be, and the resulting over all length of the shotgun must be 26" or more, or the shotgun must be registered as a Restricted firearm that can only be transported to/from an approved range and never fired outside of these sanctioned locations.

[nanuk]

+1

in Canada, keep it 18" or longer (18.5 on a semi-auto IIRC) and the overall length 26" or longer

we measure with the chamber empty, drop a stick down the barrel until it hits the breechface and mark the stick at the muzzle, that length is what matters. that and the OAL.

on the H&R's I just take the barrel off, measure, and add about 1mm to get the absolute minimum.... but I'd never take one down to the minimum

[6pt-sika]

Ok. But what if i stick it on a SB2 rifle frame, can I then cut it to 16"?

And whats the rules in canada?

We are a Class 3 dealer AND manufacturer . And we have had several folks bring shotguns in to cut the barrels below 18" . My gunsmith buddy has an 870 with a 13" pipe he uses when he piggy hunts in Arkansas . And two other guys have brought in cheap 16 and 20 gauge double barrels and cut the barrels to about 6" .

The tax stamp on this is $200 if my memory is correct . And you still have jump through the same hoops as if you were buying fully auto or a suppressor .

As to Canada I have no idea I see no reason if I had suck an item to carry it up there . Come to think of it I've never set foot in the country .

[6pt-sika]

Okay here's the straight poop !

IF you want to cut one and want it perfectly legal you need to bring it to a place that has a Class 3 manufacturers license . You CANNOT do the work yourself and then try to register it as such that is 2000% illegal !

Now as to cost if you want a "SBS" short barrel shotgun with a full length stock it costs $200 and IS the same as a suppressor or fully auto . You do your paperwork and when approved the "manufacturer" can do the work then you wait 6 months to get it back as thats how long the ATF is taking these days .

The $5 thing is if you take a shotgun and cut the stock down to the pistol grip and trim the barrel some length below 18" . This is called a "AOW" and this one costs $5 . And it works the same way you must put in your paperwork and wait for approval , then a Class 3 manufacturer does the work and again you wait 6 months for your tax stamp . AOW stands for ANY OTHER WEAPON and was actually brought about for collectors that had Marble's Game Getters or some such and wanted it more as a collector thing .

[Combat Diver]

Okay here's the straight poop !

IF you want to cut one and want it perfectly legal you need to bring it to a place that has a Class 3 manufacturers license . You CANNOT do the work yourself and then try to register it as such that is 2000% illegal !

Now as to cost if you want a "SBS" short barrel shotgun with a full length stock it costs $200 and IS the same as a suppressor or fully auto . You do your paperwork and when approved the "manufacturer" can do the work then you wait 6 months to get it back as thats how long the ATF is taking these days .

The $5 thing is if you take a shotgun and cut the stock down to the pistol grip and trim the barrel some length below 18" . This is called a "AOW" and this one costs $5 . And it works the same way you must put in your paperwork and wait for approval , then a Class 3 manufacturer does the work and again you wait 6 months for your tax stamp . AOW stands for ANY OTHER WEAPON and was actually brought about for collectors that had Marble's Game Getters or some such and wanted it more as a collector thing .

Don't you have to start with a virgin receiver to do a AOW? If your going to just pistol grip a Title 1 shotgun then isn't it still a SBS? I do love the portablility of a 14" 870.


CD

[NoZombies]

The $5 thing is if you take a shotgun and cut the stock down to the pistol grip and trim the barrel some length below 18" . This is called a "AOW" and this one costs $5 . And it works the same way you must put in your paperwork and wait for approval , then a Class 3 manufacturer does the work and again you wait 6 months for your tax stamp . AOW stands for ANY OTHER WEAPON and was actually brought about for collectors that had Marble's Game Getters or some such and wanted it more as a collector thing .

That is incorrect.

As combat diver pointed out, the only way that you can have a $5 transfer AOW shotgun pistol is to start with a virgin receiver.

If it started life with a stock, then it is a "weapon made from a shotgun" and requires a $200 stamp for transfer, no matter what the final configuration is.

A person can make an SBS themselves, but cannot do the work until after the tax stamp is approved. The making tax is the same as the transfer tax ($200) except with AOW's, where the making tax is $200 but the transfer tax is $5.

[6pt-sika]

Don't you have to start with a virgin receiver to do a AOW? If your going to just pistol grip a Title 1 shotgun then isn't it still a SBS? I do love the portablility of a 14" 870.


CD

The guy who's a...s...s is on the line with the ATF says a SBS is a gun that has to have whats considered a full length stock and can only have the barrel lopped off !

The same guy says an AOW can be made from a double barrel or single barrel etc . But to be an AOW it MUST have the stock lopped off at the PG as well as the barrel chop .

[6pt-sika]

That is incorrect.

As combat diver pointed out, the only way that you can have a $5 transfer AOW shotgun pistol is to start with a virgin receiver.

If it started life with a stock, then it is a "weapon made from a shotgun" and requires a $200 stamp for transfer, no matter what the final configuration is.

A person can make an SBS themselves, but cannot do the work until after the tax stamp is approved. The making tax is the same as the transfer tax ($200) except with AOW's, where the making tax is $200 but the transfer tax is $5.

Well mighty funny the guy who has the license has taken several full length shotguns and converted them to AOW's and the ATF gave no problems . But I'm sure you know way more then the folks who have the license to do the work and who happen to have attorny's that have checked everything before they did it the first time.

You may be correct about being able to do the work yourself , but they told me that was not the case .

Perhaps the Zombies are getting to you :drinks:

[turtlezx]

is it really worth the headache??? go 18.5 and call it good

[Bullshop Junior]

Ok. Its cut pollished and crowned at 18 and 5/8.

[6pt-sika]

is it really worth the headache??? go 18.5 and call it good

I suppose if a person is set on having one yes it is !

For my own use I tend to say no it's not !

But then I don't like the BS one has to do for a fully auto or a suppressor hence I have none of that stuff .

Much easier playing with one's belonging to sonmeone else then pay the taxes etc .

[NoZombies]

Well mighty funny the guy who has the license has taken several full length shotguns and converted them to AOW's and the ATF gave no problems . But I'm sure you know way more then the folks who have the license to do the work and who happen to have attorny's that have checked everything before they did it the first time.

You may be correct about being able to do the work yourself , but they told me that was not the case .

Perhaps the Zombies are getting to you :drinks:

Listen, I don't want to be a jerk, but you are wrong, and have been filing your F2's incorrectly and need to remedy that before it comes back and bites you bad. You also clearly need to read up on NFA weapons, and have a better understanding of the various forms used by the ATF.

Let's start with the 'doing the work yourself' thing. It's pretty simple, you file in duplicate an ATF form 1, an 'application to make a firearm' in this case, they mean a title II or 'NFA' firearm. along with the form, you send whatever documentation is needed depending on whether you file the form as an individual or as an entity, along with the $200 fee. Whenever the ATF approves the form (current estimates from the NFA branch are 9-15 months) they return one of the forms with the tax stamp affixed, and at that point you are authorized to 'make' the weapon.

As for you making "AOW's" from previously full stocked shotguns, you are breaking the law in doing so. What you are making is a "weapon made from a shotgun" and it is treated as a SBS. Here's a link to an ATF page that show exactly what you're talking about: identification-firearms-section-4 (http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/identification-firearms-within-purview-national-firearms-act/identification-firearms-section-4) It's the second item on the page. Note that the rate of transfer tax is $200, not $5. Don't believe me? call and ask them.

We all make mistakes, but I recommend that you delete some content from previous posts. And if you're ever in the neighborhood, I'll buy you a beer. :drinks:

[DRNurse1]

Wow, great stuff here. Just further confirmation that Mr Big Gub'ment is making things sticky for the law abiding folks. Than ATF notice from 2001 declaring previously legally purchased and owned firearms illegal if not registered by ## date is just a way of confusing the law abiding folks and extorting their hard earned cash. Criminals, by definition, flout the laws applying to them so are unaffected unless apprehended with that $200 x 8200 known purchasers collected.

[6pt-sika]

Listen, I don't want to be a jerk, but you are wrong, and have been filing your F2's incorrectly and need to remedy that before it comes back and bites you bad. You also clearly need to read up on NFA weapons, and have a better understanding of the various forms used by the ATF.

Let's start with the 'doing the work yourself' thing. It's pretty simple, you file in duplicate an ATF form 1, an 'application to make a firearm' in this case, they mean a title II or 'NFA' firearm. along with the form, you send whatever documentation is needed depending on whether you file the form as an individual or as an entity, along with the $200 fee. Whenever the ATF approves the form (current estimates from the NFA branch are 9-15 months) they return one of the forms with the tax stamp affixed, and at that point you are authorized to 'make' the weapon.

As for you making "AOW's" from previously full stocked shotguns, you are breaking the law in doing so. What you are making is a "weapon made from a shotgun" and it is treated as a SBS. Here's a link to an ATF page that show exactly what you're talking about: identification-firearms-section-4 (http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms/firearms-industry/guides/identification-firearms-within-purview-national-firearms-act/identification-firearms-section-4) It's the second item on the page. Note that the rate of transfer tax is $200, not $5. Don't believe me? call and ask them.

We all make mistakes, but I recommend that you delete some content from previous posts. And if you're ever in the neighborhood, I'll buy you a beer. :drinks:



Wow I didn't know you were a Class 3 dealer and manufacturer also !

My friend that owns the place has a father and brother that are both attorny's in our state and his word to me was they checked out what we are doing and it's 100% legit . Now I will say "AOW's" are not a large part of the buisness but thre have been a few made and transferred here . Also several "SBS's" . But the main reason for the license is the manufacture of suppresors and the transfer of class 3 weapons and other suppressors .

[NoZombies]

Wow I didn't know you were a Class 3 dealer and manufacturer also !

I'm not currently, but have worked for and with several. I'll have my 07/02 if I ever get a shop built large enough to use my equipment, currently there's only enough room to store it.

The regulations can be misunderstood easily, but when read in depth are relatively clear. I would suggest directing the owner to the page that I linked to as a start, as well as re-reading the relevant sections of the US code.

As I said, we all make mistakes, there's certainly plenty of room for it. I'm serious about that beer if you get to the neighborhood though, and FL is nice this time of year. :)

And for the record, I don't think that these laws should be on the books, they do about as much to stop crime as a dandelion does to preventing winter. But as long as they're the law of the land, and they carry the ridiculous consequences for failure to adhere to them, I'd just hate to see someone run afoul accidentally.

[6pt-sika]

I'm not currently, but have worked for and with several. I'll have my 07/02 if I ever get a shop built large enough to use my equipment, currently there's only enough room to store it.

The regulations can be misunderstood easily, but when read in depth are relatively clear. I would suggest directing the owner to the page that I linked to as a start, as well as re-reading the relevant sections of the US code.

As I said, we all make mistakes, there's certainly plenty of room for it. I'm serious about that beer if you get to the neighborhood though, and FL is nice this time of year. :)

And for the record, I don't think that these laws should be on the books, they do about as much to stop crime as a dandelion does to preventing winter. But as long as they're the law of the land, and they carry the ridiculous consequences for failure to adhere to them, I'd just hate to see someone run afoul accidentally.

My comment about you being Class 3 was made in jest !

Florida isn't somewhere I go regularly , think I been there once in my life . At the moment I'm saving my pennies for my annual trip to the Philippines to visit my wife and daughter . And the rest of our family of course !

When hunting seasons over in early January here I start cleaning all my junk and putting it away for next DCP season and then I clean up around the old homestead in preperation for my Feb 15th flight and when I return home in March I start preparing loads etc for the upcoming DCP season . This year we started hunting in July . Damage Control Permits typically run until the end of September and then archery season starts October 1st or so and regular hunting season ends in my county the first saturday in January . So at the moment I'm kinda burned out on the deer/bear aspect of life .