Bullet master-type furnace

[RoGrrr]

I've been corresponding with Uptickk, who is building a BULLET MASTER.

I'm building a 100 pound furnace (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218037-My-Boolit-Master) for my OLD (late 1970s vintage) BM since the original heating element burned out.
Magma used a custom-formed tubular element and immersed it directly in the molten lead but they experienced too many which burned out, so they changed to a cartridge-type element that is inserted from the sides into holes in an inch thick base plate. That's the style I'm going with now. I'm using my old pour valve on the new crucible.
I will be updating the thread as I continue construction of mine. I have yet to drill the 9" deep holes in my 1-1/4" base plate, which is no real easy task.
Anyway, since uptickk needs to build the pour valve for his and since I have mine completely disassembled, I took some pics and measured it for him. I figure some of you might be interested in what Magma uses. I don't know if this is still the design they use but it's a start for your imaginations.
I've broken my pics down into 3 groupings:
LOWER BODY
POUR PLATE
UPPER BODY

And if you have any questions, by all means, ask me

[RoGrrr]

LOWER BODY - 9 Pics
88867 88868 8886988871 88872 8887388874 88875 88876

The gaskets, probably asbestos, .035 thick.
The 7th pic - 1385669785 - shows the dividing chamber which splits the melt so it flows out the 2 holes in the pour plate. It is milled with a 3/16" ball end mill.

[RoGrrr]

Upper body
88903 88904

[RoGrrr]

Pour plate
88923 88924 88925 88926

[RoGrrr]

Complete valve assembly
88927 88928

[VHoward]

That's neat.

[Uptickk]

Thought I would show you guys what I have been working on. It has been a slow moving process but it is coming along. Need to first thank RoGrrr as we have been going back an forth discussing various things related to casting and he has been a huge help! My hat off to you kind Sir.

91910

The pot measures 10''x8''x5''. I have a divider set so 2/3rds of my pot is for pre-melting and the other 1/3 is the pour side. Still working on the float that opens and closes the hole in the divider. The first attempt didn't plug the hole completely and so alloy was pouring into the pour side from the melt side prematurely. The pot also has a 1'' lip around it that I need to source some insulation for as well as the bottom. Was thinking Kaowool or something similar. Having some difficulty finding R values for various insulation products to determine what is the best bang for my buck. The needle and pour assembly is the same one on my Magma Master Pot (I should have made this myself but was trying to get this done as my shop is about an hour away and I was getting a little antsy with my lack of progress). The two holes in the plate on the top are for the thermocouples so that I can regulate both sides of my pot.

91913

This pictures shows the 3 heaters in the 1'' base plate. The two on the side are 1,500 watts each and heat the melting section while the other one is 1,000 watts and heats the pour section.

91917

Shown here is my two PID test setup. I made a project box (don't worry it isn't made out of wood) since I couldn't find the necessary size for a reasonable price. Turns out I might have made it too small. (Note to self... complete the wiring before making the enclosure Captain Obvious!) I was able to track down a heavier duty terminal block so I will be able to fit it all on one as opposed to the two shown in the picture.

Any suggestions or comments are welcome. I will try to update this as I make progress but with the two hour round trip to my shop things tend to move a lot slower than what I would like.

[RoGrrr]

Uptickk
Looking at your PID controller, I'd suggest you add some kind of heat sinking to your solid state relays. They generate heat which needs to be dissipated. Not sinking them might cause them to fail. Considering how much current they control, the more sinking, the better. You might also consider adding a fan, maybe something like from a discarded computer power supply to draw air thru the enclosure. You might even use the computer power supply enclosure for your controller.
I still don't have mine finished, as I've been gone for a few weeks. I stopped at Magma while I was in Arizona and bought one of their valve assemblies. Yes, I could have built it myself but they gave me a time consuming tour of their factory so I thought at least I should buy something. I asked a lot of questions and learned a lot while I was there.
One thing I learned is that the pour side of their furnace only carries about an inch of melt at any given time which is kept fed by an almost continuous feed from the melt side. My pot is 6" deep so I need to extend my valve arm or it will provide a little over 2 inches of lead. However, I wonder if that will make any difference.

[Uptickk]

Thanks for the suggestions. I was kicking around the idea of putting some heat sinks on the relays. This setup was just to test to make sure everything worked before tucking it away in a box. I ended up going with 40 amp relays which is overkill but they were almost the same price as the lower rated ones and I figured they wouldn't heat up as much. Regardless I have some heat sinks off some old computers.

Nice to hear about your Magma tour. Would love to look them up if I am ever in the area. The bit you mentioned about the 1'' level in the melt side lines up with what they recommend in the manual they have posted on their website.

Have you given any thought to what you will use to insulate your pot?

[Salmon-boy]

Nice work, BOTH of you!!

Uptickk, I've been thinking of the same thing - what to use as insulation. I've got 2 projects for melters right now and have been mulling that over..

For the 6 spout electric casting pot, I'm think that I'll go with 1" of Kaowool (picked up a 24"x36" wood stove blanket: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CJNE3QI/ref=oh_details_o03_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and will also make a small lid for the 8" pot.

For the smelter, I have not decided on a heat source (either wood or propane) and was thinking of keeping it simply to fiberglass insulation since it won't be in direct contact with the heat.

Chuck.

[Uptickk]

Thanks for the link Salmon-boy. Do you have any idea on what the R value or K value is? In a thread a few years back Matt3357 suggested this stuff, http://www.mcmaster.com/#9328k41/=q2s0g7 which is cheaper but I am having difficulty doing an apples to apples comparison on each product. I was also looking at this stuff, http://www.mcmaster.com/#93315k74/=q2sdai, but don't need 25 ft of it I am probably over thinking it but just trying to get the most bang for my insulation buck.

[Salmon-boy]

Most of my high-temp insulation experience comes from backyard foundry and forge building. I'm definitely not sure what the R value is, but it's got to be pretty high.. I've melted copper with about 1" of it and a 3/4" propane venturi burner (Mike Porter style).

The links you posted are for the rigid board and roll (essentially Kaowool). For melting lead, you should only need to use about 1" of either. Most of the radiational cooling will be from the surface. Since the rigid board is inexpensive and you've got square joints - If you want to be super efficient, go with 2", including a cover!

I'm going with the fiberglass on the smelter just because I want to keep it really cheap. It'll be most of a 20lb propane tank welded into a cut-down 40gal water heater. I don't want to burn 20lbs of propane per melt!

[RoGrrr]

Uptickk
The difference between relays is simply ability to carry more current. It's like using a 3/4 ton pickup to carry a skid of shingles when you also have a 1/2 ton truck. They will both do the same job adequately, but the 3/4 ton just gives you more confidence.
In my case, I'll be handling 4000 watts on melt side, which is less than 20 Amps for that one SSR. A 25 Amp SSR will handle it but I'll be using the 40 Amp SSR just bcuz I have it. It's like, I shoot paper targets with my 45ACP just bcuz I have it. My 9mm will put a hole in the paper, too. As my good friend Heather LaCroix on YouTube says, "I like a big boom!"
As for insulation, I have a bunch of leftover fiberglass insulation that I used in my garage so that will be what goes in my furnace. I'll have about 1.5" of cavity to fill so I will stuff that full of glas. I really don't care what the R-value is. It won't make any difference that I care about since I'm doing this as a hobby. Also, I smelted about a thousand pounds of range scrap ore with one 20 pound jug of propane, FWIW.
And your test setup, well, I guess you could justifiably call it a testBOARD !

Salmon-boy
I built a smelter and heated it with propane. It's far more convenient than wood. However, if you use wood you won't need any insulation since all the fire's heat will lap up along the sides of your pot.
I built my own propane-fired smelter with a chimney surrounding the crucible.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?195618-My-Smelting-Furnace&highlight=smelter
It works very will but I will probably build another one a bit wider and not as deep, making it easier to flux and skim dross. It might have the chimney but I won't put the tall shield in front. I did that one before I smelted anything bcuz I was a bit paranoid about some lead jumping out while I was pouring ingots. I have since found that kind of stuff just doesn't happen. The tinsel fairy normally only visits when loading the pot. When I build the new smelter, this one will be for sale. It weighs close to 50 pounds.

[Salmon-boy]

.<snip>. As my good friend Heather LaCroix on YouTube says, "I like a big boom!"
^-- Happy, Perky!! Her videos are a lot of fun to watch, she always seems to be having a good time..


.<snip>. It works very will but I will probably build another one a bit wider and not as deep, making it easier to flux and skim dross. <snip>....
When I build the new smelter, this one will be for sale. It weighs close to 50 pounds.
I've been wondering how hard it will be to remove jackets from a 3/4 propane bottle.. I take it that stirring was difficult? Were there any other issues with the large volume?

If I lived closer I'd be obliged to buy it from you..

[RoGrrr]

Heather is about 6' tall so to impress her with a big boom, it gots to be really BIG !
I use a long handle (stainless steel kitty litter) scoop to remove jackets from my crucible. I also wear a long gauntlet welding glove so I don't burn my wrist/forearm on the side of the vessel when I scoop. Quite honestly, mine is a bit too deep (prototype).
Shadowcaster has one that is about 15, maybe 18 inches wide and only about 4 inches deep. He's posted several pics here. I'm thinking there's a happy medium somewhere inbetween, depth vs width. That 20 pound propane jug might be Goldilocks' friend's "just right" size if it's not too deep, but scraping the dross off that curved bottom might prove difficult, too. (I'm thinking surgical cleanliness, ya know)
By the way, "mdxdm" built a neat smelting (propane bottle) pot integrated INTO a 55 gallon drum which is good for smelting with wood. I forgot to mention it earlier. He has a real good design, tho I'd redesign the valve to an easy to open, dead-man-type valve, but he must like it so I'm not going to throw daggers about it. He uses the same design valve as Shad.
My crucible holds 75-100 lbs of melt (when I fill it completely with ore. 100 Lbs of ore will yield about 25 Lbs of jackets and other crep with the rest being lead) but what I've found is that the deep crucible is not all that great for HANDLING the jackets or stirring/sorting/scooping. The stuff on the bottom melts while what's resting on top takes longer to melt. Also, what lead drains down gets caught in the open-ended jackets so it's difficult to drain all the melt out of those jackets when scooping. So fewer jackets is better from the handling standpoint. Stirring the melt when fluxing is a bit difficult only due to the depth of the crucible.
What I now do is melt a couple quarts of ore, scoop out the jackets and dump in another couple quarts. Repeat until I get to the point where I can pour about 15-20 3 pound ingots with a couple inches of melt left. Then I start over with enough melt remaining that it makes a fairly quick hit, due to the heat retention bcuz of the melted mass on that newly introduced/cold ore. I know, some of you are going to say it's dangerous and I'm inviting the tinsel devil-lady. Been there, done that. Once. Now I dump into the corner with enough loose ore covering the batch so that if what hits the melt starts to boil any moisture, the loose ore on top of it will shield the splash. Also I have a screen over the top so if it does explode, it'll be caught by the screen. So those of you who dislike my procedure, please simply shake your head and remain otherwise silent. I don't have problems even with ore/range scrap I washed "yesterday and let dry overnite to smelt today" (most of my smelting is done in the summer so my ore dries quickly in the sun). Follow procedure and even tho there might be a wee bit of sizzle, Tinsel Devil-Lady never gets to sing her song.



^-- Happy, Perky!! Her videos are a lot of fun to watch, she always seems to be having a good time..
I've been wondering how hard it will be to remove jackets from a 3/4 propane bottle.. I take it that stirring was difficult? Were there any other issues with the large volume?
If I lived closer I'd be obliged to buy it from you..

[Salmon-boy]

Heather is about 6' tall so to impress her with a big boom, it gots to be really BIG !
ROTFLMAO!!! Wow, would never have know it but she does handle the 12ga well!!


That 20 pound propane jug might be Goldilocks' friend's "just right" size if it's not too deep, but scraping the dross off that curved bottom might prove difficult, too. (I'm thinking surgical cleanliness, ya know)
The beauty of making my own crucible is the ability to make my own tools to fit!!

By the way, "mdxdm" built a neat smelting (propane bottle) pot integrated INTO a 55 gallon drum which is good for smelting with wood. I saw that and completely stole the idea!! :-)
Not sure I'm going with the bottom pour design. I think the head pressure would be too much..

I've found is that the deep crucible is not all that great for HANDLING the jackets or stirring/sorting/scooping. The stuff on the bottom melts while what's resting on top takes longer to melt. Also, what lead drains down gets caught in the open-ended jackets so it's difficult to drain all the melt out of those jackets when scooping.
Ahh that is one thing that ONLY experience can teach!! Thanks for the info!

What I now do is melt a couple quarts of ore, scoop out the jackets and dump in another couple quarts. Repeat until I get to the point where I can pour about 15-20 3 pound ingots with a couple inches of melt left. Then I start over with enough melt remaining that it makes a fairly quick hit, due to the heat retention bcuz of the melted mass on that newly introduced/cold ore.
Yes, melting with an established heal is alway much quicker. The trick is to pre-heat the addition. The "Tinsel Devil-Lady" is more of a bitch with Aluminum.. I let a piece slip and talk about an explosion! That is one experience I'll never forget and I thank God that none landed on me!!

I REALLY like the ingot trolly and would probably make it long enough so the first ingot is cooled before I was pouring the last ingot..

[RoGrrr]

Salmon-boy
Heather handles a 10 GA really well, too. Her 'shock absorbers' steady the recoil, you know.
Head pressure from the smelter should not be a problem since you're not trying to control into a small cavity. I wouldn't worry about it at all. Besides, you won't need that much fall anyway. Plumb it so there isn't more than a couple inches fall.
Yes, some of the experience I get is from making stupid moves. NO, WAIT ! I won't admit doing any of that in MY life....
I realized that a boat of ingots would get heavy quickly and since I had a track with about 50 of those wheels (I saw it at the scrap yard and couldn't pas it up, not even having ANY idea *** I would ever use it for but I bought it, anyway). I like playing Rube Goldberg. He's my idol.
Anyway, I agree with you about the longer ingot trolly except for the overall weight (experience,,,,, remember) so after the wasted delay from waiting for them to cool enough to dump without them shattering when they hit the concrete, I built a second copy. The handles are 1) for guiding the trolly and 2) handling it when it's "warm". They are unwieldy but I manage, and have no plans to redesign them when I make a new set of trolly molds. I don't like how the triangular ingots stack so I'm going to make a new set out of channel irons which will be roughly rectangular.

[ReloaderFred]

Don't worry about the melt level on the pour side of your pot. Magma has it set at about an inch, but I've held the valve open on our Mk. 6 to fill the pour side from the melt side, and it didn't make any difference in the actual pour, and resultant bullets. I'm sure there is a good reason they've made their pots that way, but I suspect it has more to do with taking the pour alloy from near the bottom of the melt side, so as to reduce the amount of dross that gets on the pour side.

We've finally got our machine working well now. We're able to put out bullets by the thousands during a day of pouring, but the old M-A Systems collator is going to have to be rebuilt for the Lube Master. We're feeding them through the LM using tubes right now, and that's working OK, but it takes time to fill the tubes.

Hope this helps.

Fred

PS: Who is Heather????

[RoGrrr]

Fred
I'm glad to hear your BM is up and running. Mine's not, but that's strictly MY fault.
I was wondering about the depth in the pour chamber and am kicking myself that I didn't ask the simple question of WHY 1" when I was at Magma. I just spoke with them on the fone and find that the depth is not critical. In their opinion, the critical item is repeatability of the pour. With their float controlled valve, the pour/head pressure is tightly controlled.
Another thing to watch is that the stream of melt is smooth without spiraling as it goes into the holes of the mold.
They have also gone to several heating elements under each chamber of their furnace for temperature uniformity throughout the chambers.

Fred, it seems that you have led an extremely sheltered life if you don't know who Heather is. She's one of the redneck stars on youtube. She's from that kingdom of Redneck - LOUISIANA ! You know, where the Duck Dynasty comes from. She's a tall (6') attractive blond with BigN's. She's a shooter, hunter, fisherman and a good comedienne.
Do a youtube search for Heather LaCroix and you will find many funny and informative vids created by her and her husband - jeff3230. You'll also find HeatherVlogs.

[ReloaderFred]

Roger,

I made a special tool for reaching in and cleaning the orifices on the pour spout to get a smooth stream of lead hitting the sprue plate holes. I did the same thing for my Master Caster a couple of years ago and it greatly helps to get good bullets.

I'll have to look up this Heather and see what you're talking about.

Thanks,

Fred