Ballard Pacific, deep grooves! advice please.

[flintlocke]

I have an old Ballard 45 Govt. Pretty frosty and dark in the grooves but not horrible with a tight dry patch. So I slugged it, throat and muzzle, and come up with .450 to .451 ish on the bore, but damn and blast, the groove is a whopping .465. Rebarrel, paper patch, custom mold, what are my options? Honestly,as far as rebarreling, I dread the thought of Murphy's Law, 18 tpi, and a 140 yr old snug fit, after 45 years in the metal trades I ain't no big fan of miracle oils. The intended use, by the way, is offhand at metal clangers for fun out to modest ranges at low (1100fps) velocity. We all dream of the moa slug rifle but I understand reality and would be tickled to death with 2 1/2" at a hunnert paces. Boys, I need more than your 25 cents worth, I'm in over my head. Flinchlocke

[bigted]

Welcome to the forum pard! as i see it you have only 2 options ...

1- get .452 inch boolits and patch with .004 inch printer paper. then shoot em over a stout charge of BP and a lube cookie and have a blast with that old rifle.
2- this is the option i would recommend tho ... carefully wrap it in bubble wrap then install in a stout box and send it to me for a continuous test till i feel comfortable it will be safe for ya ... :drinks:

i would try another thing as well ...

shoot a round and then take the fireformed case and slightly flair the mouth so the crimp is gone and measure the case neck for what your chamber will accommodate. when you have this diameter in hand then try to get some boolits ...[greasers]... that diameter and shoot em to see if your barrel will stabilize them.

last but not least ... photo's will enable us the drooling that goes along with this forum.

again WELCOME and im sure the other intelligent folks here will steer ya in the rite direction.

[uscra112]

Might want to have a Ballard expert look at it to see whether it's a forged or a cast frame. (Don't assume based on the literature!) Cast frames have been known to crack and worse when fired with large cartridges and "stout" loads. That metal is over 120 years old, may have developed cracks or corrosion damage that aren't visible to the naked eye. (Not bashing Ballards - I've got four of them and love 'em to bits.)

[Nobade]

USCRA112 is right on - have it checked by an expert first. If it is deemed safe to shoot, a soft bullet, 20:1 or softer, that fits the fired case with a slip fit, over a full load of black powder, won't have any problems with the deep grooves. If you can't get it to work, a hollow base bullet certainly will. Lyman made a 45 caliber minie' that works great with light loads and will seal no problem. Or, as Big Ted said, paper patched and pure lead will work just fine too. My .433"X.447" rolling block shoots great with .425" bullets patched to .436" over a full load of black. Bump-up is not a problem if bullets are soft enough and the load is stout enough.

-Nobade

[Mk42gunner]

I have absolutely no experience with Ballards; but since it is chambered for the .45 Gov't, I have to believe that a softish hollowbase bullet will work. That was what was used in the Trapdoor Springfields after all.

I hear lots of good things about the book by Spence and Pat Wolff, I think I would hunt down a copy of it to read for ideas.

The advice to get your rifle checked for safety is what I would do first, then worry about making loads that work.

Robert

[bigted]

i totally agree with the safety first method. THEN package it up and send it to me for a complete shake down ... :kidding:

[John Taylor]

I have a barrel that has a .450 bore and .465 groove. I was looking for a deep groove barrel to play with and ask Orion barrel co. to make one up but I was thinking smaller bore with a .458 groove. Seemed to feel funny when I was doing the chamber so I slugged the bore. When I found out the bore size I opened up an old bullet mold to .465 and made an oversize chamber reamer. The rifle is still in the locker, unfinished, because I found other things to work on.

My Ballard book does not show a 45-70 on a cast frame, most of the cast frames were for rim fire or pistol calibers.

[flintlocke]

Firstly, I thank the kind gentlemen for responding, all your input is valuable advice, saving me a ton of heartache and money. I will proceed with the simplest solutions first. Secondly, close detailed inspection of the frame would suggest a billet or forging, (thanks Mr Taylor) none of the usual indications of cast anywhere at 10x magnification. A poor boy magnaflux of diesel and chalk dust doesn't show any flaws, I think she's good to go with prudence. But, at the risk of wearing my welcome out I've got to ask about preferred lubes in a rough bore. I did a search in the lube section, but didn't find anything specific. My personal trials and tribulations with an old Heber Scheutzen muzzleloader with rifling so rough it would pull lint off a dry patch led me to believe the old timers had it right with beeswax compounded with unsalted animal tallow. But that's a patched round ball, different world? Sure would appreciate your input. By the by, I see this is the only Ballard that came with a ramrod stowed under the barrel, intended for wiping betwixt shots? For knocking out George Custers fatal balloon head cases? (talk about Balloon Heads, no wonder we invented "fragging"). Thanks, Paul

[John Taylor]

Was doing a bit of reading on the Pacific (#5) and it appears that all were in hunting calibers for the west with drop forged frame. There is a story in Outdoor life, Dec, 1912, where a Sam Steven took 6 turkeys at a turkey shot and was accused of using an elephant gun because his pacific rifle was a 40-90.

[bigted]

dependent on a safe bill of health this would be my serious advice.

1- i would begin with a hollow base paperpatch slick boolit in the .444 inch diameter.
2- patch this as thick as possible and plan to seat it in the case till it will just barely chamber. patched with copy paper will prolly bring it up to .459 .460 inch with this .004 inch paper patched wet. allow to completely dry before loading in a case.
3- load 55 grains 2F blackpowder in the case and cap this with a card for compression and isolation purposes.
4- measure the depth needed for chambering + thickness of the lube cookie + the thickness of the over cookie wad. take this measurement and compress the total amount from the case mouth.
5- install the lube cookie and over cookie wad and press them down with the patched boolit.
6- no need to crimp the boolit in the case. it will not come out of the case once it is chambered in the rifle.
7- with a clean and open bore ... fire this round ... swab with water a couple swabs and dry barrel ... repeat with the next round.

the cookie can be made with a glass pie plate and a concoction of 1/2 bee wax and 1/2 clear Vaseline ... this is heated very gently until everything is melted and stirred for around 3 to 5 minutes ... pour into the glass pie plate to a thickness of 3/16th inch ... set level and allow to cool and solidify completely. when solid i take a 45-70 case and drill the primer hole out large enough to use a "pusher" to remove the cookie from the case [cutter] and now you have a lube cookie. these lube the barrel for the next shot as well as mix with the fouling to ensure a soft foul and make clean up far easier.

reason for the paperpatch boolits is the barrel healing aspects of paperpatch shooting. this paper will do much for your bore and probably wont do any special accuracy till a bunch have been shot thru it.

reason for the blackpowder is the pressure it develops and will definitely not hurt a sound rifle and i would hesitate to suggest using any smokeless powder for your paper conditioning because of the ease of a slight mistake in load that would or could ruin a fine rifle at least and at worst could end the shooters eyes or life in most dire effect.

just ensure that you patch the boolits OVER the beginning of the ogive [beginning of the taper on the front of your boolit] far enough that the paper patch begins into the rifling ahead of the tightness that may happen that if a slight edge of paper is encountered ... could slip the patch and lead the snot outta the barrel.

this seems like a lot of work but i can guarantee you the smiles and fun of shooting this ol hummer in a safe and constructive manner and in likeness of the original article.

oh yea and then as to the questions ... there are no stupid questions and we all ask questions when we get stumped and sometimes like myself im sure i ask the same a bit later as my mind seems like a siv sometimes ...so ask away my friend and no worries.

[uscra112]

Was doing a bit of reading on the Pacific (#5) and it appears that all were in hunting calibers for the west with drop forged frame. There is a story in Outdoor life, Dec, 1912, where a Sam Steven took 6 turkeys at a turkey shot and was accused of using an elephant gun because his pacific rifle was a 40-90.

A Pacific should have a forge receiver, but after 120 years, can one be certain without looking for the clues?

That said, I am mortally jealous of the O.P. ! I've wanted a forged frame for years and years, but have never had one come my way that I could afford.

Anyway, if his is forged, cautions about shooting it with that big-base cartridge are off the table. Still, it ain't no High Wall. Any proper load of black will be safe, but if smokeless is ever used, loads from the "Trapdoor" section of the manuals would be best.

[John Taylor]

I lucked out several years ago. One of my customers owed me about $150 and he paid me with a Ballard rifle. He says, I know you like these old single shots, will this cover my bill? I had to bite my tong to keep from smiling and said it would be fine. Someone had put a 22 barrel on it and home made wood but it was a forged action. First thing was to make up a 38-55 barrel for it. A few months later a customer came in with a Ballard for a barrel and I set him up with one. In talking to him about his rifle he said he was going to replace the wood so I ask for his old stock and he gave it to me, including butt plate. Now if I can just find the time to make up a forearm and put sights on it.:) The rifle had a single trigger but the lever is big enough for a set trigger so that's in the proses also. Another customer gave me a breach that was almost rusted beyond recognition but there is enough there to copy the triggers and sear for my block.