Lets hope they shoot!

[waco]

88824
.308 twice fired 1974 LC brass, CCI LRP, 39gr IMR4895 C.O.L. 2.715"
LEE C309-180-R GC and PC
Hoping for around 2400FPS, WW alloy + 2% Tin
Rifle is a Rem.700, Heavy barrel, McMillan A-3 stock, Leupold VX111 3.5X10X50 Mildot scope, Harris Bi-pod.
The gun shoots J-words like a dream.
88826
This is five rounds @ 100 yards off a bench.
88828

[AlaskanGuy]

Nice... The look real cool... But can they shoot... Cant wait for this one...

[kbstenberg]

Isn't that the gun you got from your friend out of the pawn shop?

[Rainier]

Proof is in the paper - looks like the old 700 and it's shooter can at least hold minute coyote with J-words :) Here's hoping the PCs do equally as well!

[waco]

Isn't that the gun you got from your friend out of the pawn shop?

Yes it is! Got the rifle as you see it for $600!:)

[BNE]

Cool loooking. Please post the target when you get it!

[dverna]

waco

At last, a real rifle, with a real load. To determine real accuracy.

Be sure to get all the copper fouling out and put a few cast loads through it before shooting for groups - but I gues you already know all that.

I have some Lyman 311334 bullets that have been produced from a sinlge cavity mold using Linotype and culled to a +/- .2 grain tolerance. This is a good bullet for the .308. The mold produces a very consistent bullet. If you want to coat them, shoot them, and post the results I will send them to you.

This is one of the few threads I am subscribed to.

BTW, you stole the gun/scope - great buy on the outfit and it shoots.

Good luck sir!!

I can make space for a spray and bake set up if I need to.

Don Verna

[waco]

Don.
I would love to give some a try. I'll shoot you a PM.
I might be able to get out to the hills this weekend and get some shooting in.
What top punch does that Lyman mold use?

[sparky45]

Fantastic group with the jacketed bullets, I hope the PC'd do as well.

[MacFan]

I have some Lyman 311334 bullets that have been produced from a sinlge cavity mold using Linotype and culled to a +/- .2 grain tolerance. This is a good bullet for the .308. The mold produces a very consistent bullet. If you want to coat them, shoot them, and post the results I will send them to you.
Don Verna

Don,
I wrote to you in another thread, you may not find it if you don't subscribe to it.
If you want to send me a few dozen bullets, I'll PC them and send them back to you. I'll pick up the return shipping. This way you can set up a control group to your standards and do a direct comparison with PC coated. All I ask is for you to publish the results for the rest of us. Send me a PM and I'll give you my address.

[Rangefinder]

Well, if you get the kind of results with pc boolits that I did in a rifle platform, you're gonna be amazed by what happens. Can't wait to see.

[dverna]

Hi MacFan,

I am unwilling to test at this time. I live in northern MI and this AM is was 0 degrees. I am eager to see if PC'ed bullets work (by that I mean give good accuracy at 2400+ fps), but not that eager. That is why I have offered to send what I consider good bullets to someone who can do both the coating and the shooting. I am probably going to send a bunch to waco as he has a good platform to test with, but I appreciate your offer.

If we still do not have an answer to the quesiton "Are PC rifle bullets accurate at 2400+ fps" by the srping, I will reach out to you to get some bullets coated and tested. I have two .308's to work with, a M700 with McRee chassis and Vortex Razor HD 5-20 scope that I just put together and a M70 Coyote with a Millet scope. The M700 was going to be set up for the 175gr SMK and the Coyote was going to be a decicated cast bullet rifle for "cheap" practice. Both guns should be moa with jacketed but I have not fired them so I need to establish the baseline.

My goal is wring out a lube (ordered a bunch of White Label 2500 and Red) in the .308 as that is an easier caliber for cast, and then move to working up cast loads for the AR's I have. If PC'ed bullets work better, then I will set up for PC'ing but there needs to be a significant advantage to PC'ing.

Don Verna

[waco]

So. First things first. C.O.L of 2.715" will NOT chamber in my rifle. We had to go back and re-seat all ammo to 2.650" and even then, the it was a slight crush fit. Not sure what this might do for the accuracy of the loaded rounds.

With that being said, here are our test results thus far.

Elevation 1000 feet
Air temp. 50 Deg.
Range, 100 yards.
Load- .308, LC 1974 twice fired brass, CCI LRP, Lee 180gr RN GC Boolit, PC with HF matte black
All boolits were sorted by weight, 182.0-182.3 Grains after GC and PC.
39.0 grains of IMR4895 @ 2325 FPS

All groups shot off a Cabelas one piece inexpensive shooting bench, on gravel, not very stable.
89101

The rifle was scrubbed down to bare metal to remove all copper fouling. We utilized five fouling shots to obtain Chrony info.

I shot four, five shot groups @ 100 yards.
89102

Number 2 was my best group. (pic sideways)
89103

I only went out with 25 loaded rounds. More testing is in order, and I believe a higher BC boolit is in order.
I will also run a higher BHN alloy next time.

89107

Any suggestions for further load development would be welcome.:drinks:

[waco]

I'm going to go clean the rifle and post results.

[Love Life]

Hmmm. This raises more questions than it answers. Just a quick glance would say NO, they are not up to snuff with jacketed.

However; standing back you have to ask if the threshold for the alloy was exceeded. Did the "RPM" threshold rear it's ugly head? How much would changing seating depth alter the groups? All very interesting indeed and thank you for your post. Maybe a test with the 311365 would be in order here.

[waco]

I believe a harder alloy is in order. Seating the boolits right the FIRST time will help also I believe. I was able to get two different five shot groups under 2"
Like I said, this my first go at .308 cast PC boolits.

On the plus side, after shooting 25 rounds it only took two wet patches, ten passes with the brush, and six dry patches, the bore was clean.

89113

[waco]

Lovelife, keep in mind this is my FIRST attempt at PC .308

Don wanted to see results at 100 yards with loads of 1800-2200fps

I did just that. Is there room for improvement?....Yes there is.

I was kinda stoked with the results for my first try at it!

A higher BC boolit and better alloy would be the ticket I think!

BTW. This is the first time this rifle has ever seen anything other than J-words.

[Love Life]

I'm not saying you did anything bad. I think the results for the 1st time, at those velocities, without any load development are outstanding.

I think the potential is definitely there. I wish I could travel this road with you, but alas my uber accurate 308 is now a .243.

Seriously, thank you for these tests and the follow on posts. I hope my initial post here did not come off as combative, as that was not my intent at all.

Oh, and you stole that rifle and setup!! Heck, you paid $600 for the stock and got a free barreled action and scope!!

[leadman]

waco, I believe you need to harden your alloy as you said. Even straight linotype was not hard enough when I was experimenting with the 30-06, 314299 sized .310", and max jacketed bullet loads of 4350 and 4831. I had to heat treat it and modify the baking of the Hi-Tek coating. I went to 2 times in the oven instead of 3, and when the temperature hit 375 degrees I turned the oven way down and let the 10 minute bake finish. I only lost 2 BHN this way.
If you have straight linotype try that and see what happens. You may also want to experiment with heat treated boolits and modifying your PC baking to see what happens.
You may also want to investigate the boolit oal seating. Is the nose engraving in the rifling? I think it is best to slightly engrave the front driving band into the rifling for higher velocity loads.
Using the formula out of Richard Lee's second edition manual to figure the pressure of reduced loads I get approx. 41,433 psi. Figuring your WW& tin alloy at 12BHN your alloy is good for 15,536 approximately. The manual says 32BHN is needed for the pressure of your load. I have found that the PC and HT coating are able to cheat this to a small degree.

[waco]

Not combative at all. I respect your opinion Love Life, and all in the know.

All feedback is appreciated and welcomed.

A real bench, better alloy, and maybe a better boolit design would help.

I'm going to keep at this, and will let you guys know.

[waco]

waco, I believe you need to harden your alloy as you said. Even straight linotype was not hard enough when I was experimenting with the 30-06, 314299 sized .310", and max jacketed bullet loads of 4350 and 4831. I had to heat treat it and modify the baking of the Hi-Tek coating. I went to 2 times in the oven instead of 3, and when the temperature hit 375 degrees I turned the oven way down and let the 10 minute bake finish. I only lost 2 BHN this way.
If you have straight linotype try that and see what happens. You may also want to experiment with heat treated boolits and modifying your PC baking to see what happens.
You may also want to investigate the boolit oal seating. Is the nose engraving in the rifling? I think it is best to slightly engrave the front driving band into the rifling for higher velocity loads.
Using the formula out of Richard Lee's second edition manual to figure the pressure of reduced loads I get approx. 41,433 psi. Figuring your WW& tin alloy at 12BHN your alloy is good for 15,536 approximately. The manual says 32BHN is needed for the pressure of your load. I have found that the PC and HT coating are able to cheat this to a small degree.

Yes, the boolits were a slight crush fit into the rifelings. I will WQ a better alloy next time around. I think a better boolit design would be better also!

[AlaskanGuy]

Can you tell me what the pressure on your load was? Seems to me that the pressure should be about 10% below what the strength of your alloy is for testing... From what i found in the manual, the pressure for your round was in the 57000 - 58000 range... That would mean to obtain best accuracy, you would need a very hard alloy for best accuracy for a lead cast boolit... Maybe a different load would be best to test this with?? I am sure i have this all wrong, but i remember reading a paper on this.... I wish somebody like Larry was reading this... He prolly knows... Once that is all figured out and the alloy is correct for the load you want to use, then you can add in the PC factor in.... I am sure i am stepping all over stuff.... The old brain is straining purty hard...lol

AG

Oh crud... Leadman has already posted about most of this stuff.... Sorry Leadman... See what happens when you leave thw window open while you get sidetracked....

[Rainier]

Great work Waco! Looks like you may be on to something. Considering this was your first run I'm very encouraged. Keep the good reports coming!
I scanned through the thread and didn't see it - What's the twist rate in your barrel?

[Love Life]

Good question on the twist rate. Also, what is the length of the bullets?

[HNSB]

Waco, thanks for taking the time to post results and pictures.

I'm very encouraged by your test. I think that's pretty good for a first go with powder coat and higher velocities.

Keep it up, and if you have the time the load development and thought process as you go is extremely helpful to folks like me.

I have no doubt you'll get sub moa groups eventually.
I like to see the process unfold.

[geargnasher]

I'm betting that a long bake (30 minutes at least) an water-quenching will cut those groups in half. Or at least heat treat and size them first, then do the minimal-anneal bake like Leadman has come up with. I'm also betting that moving down to H335, Varget, or even 4350 to cut about 15-18K PSI off the peak pressure and give a more gentle start would cut them in half again based on your initial results.

Like most, I'm armchair coaching this one 'cuz I have no personal experience, but am cheering your effort!

Logically it seems to me that good fit is is still important for accuracy whether coated or not to prevent crooked starts and the resulting damage that kills accuracy at high velocity/rpms.

You've already doubled the effective velocity of a non-checked, WW+tin boolit using just lube just by coating, and it looks like there are a lot of things you can add back (throat fit, reducing neck clearance, gas checks, hardening the boolits, slower powder, using compacting buffer, eliminating the lube grooves for more bearing surface, even adding traditional lube) that should substantially improve the way they shoot.

Gear

[Love Life]

In the OP, the pictures of the boolits show a ring around the nose. Was that caused by the top punch or is that a trick of the light? Also, the groups opened up as you fired. I wonder why.

What is your usual brass prep? Did you go through the same steps for brass prep for these boolits as you did with the jacketed? You sorted the boolits by weight, but what about bas to ogive sorting?

How round are the boolits? I'm assuming that since they were sized, that the outside diameter was quite concentric?

Hmmm. What is your run out? I wonder what just a different boolit with a better nose profile would do.

[dverna]

Waco,

Great first outing!!!

Seat a bullet long with medium neck tension and run it into the chamber. Extract carefully. Do this a couple of times. That will give you COL for the bullet seated to touch the lands. Play with seating at that length and .010" longer (jam fit - pressure will be higher) and shorter (short "jump")

I agree with the others. A harder alloy is better. If you need linotype I can send you 10 lbs at no charge when I send my 311344 bullets to you (those bullets are 100% linotype). I do not have a Lyman top punch as I use a Star for sizing.

Also, a "slower" powder should help. I cannot ship any to you as the HazMat fees are prohibitive.

One last item, I hope you are using an "M" die, or similar to slightly bell the case neck before seating the bullets. It may not be 100% necessary with GC's but it cannot hurt to ease the bullet into the case.

Again, a very good start.

Don Verna

[waco]

Good question on the twist rate. Also, what is the length of the bullets?


1.041" boolit lenghth

1:10 twist

[waco]

In the OP, the pictures of the boolits show a ring around the nose. Was that caused by the top punch or is that a trick of the light? Also, the groups opened up as you fired. I wonder why.

What is your usual brass prep? Did you go through the same steps for brass prep for these boolits as you did with the jacketed? You sorted the boolits by weight, but what about bas to ogive sorting?

How round are the boolits? I'm assuming that since they were sized, that the outside diameter was quite concentric?

Hmmm. What is your run out? I wonder what just a different boolit with a better nose profile would do.

Yeah, the light ring on the nose is from the top punch

The groups did seem to open as we went along. 25 rounds total i think.

Brass was all '74LC twice fired, trimmed to 2.0", flash hole deburred, and FL sized

Base to ogive sorting? Not sure how to do that one! :)

After coating and running through the sizer die, they were a very round .3113"

Not sure about the run out. I don't have those tools here.

[waco]

Gear,
I have H335 and Varget on hand. I'll give them a try next along with stonger ally, and play with the seating depth.
PS, these WHERE GC boolits if you didn't catch that in the pic. They have just been installed before the PC.

Loading cast in a rifle is very new to me, PC or otherwise so I'm very open to all your guys help.

Don is sending me some of his boolits of a better design to try out. Maybe I'll have better luck with those over a different powder.

[waco]

Waco,

Great first outing!!!

Seat a bullet long with medium neck tension and run it into the chamber. Extract carefully. Do this a couple of times. That will give you COL for the bullet seated to touch the lands. Play with seating at that length and .010" longer (jam fit - pressure will be higher) and shorter (short "jump")

I agree with the others. A harder alloy is better. If you need linotype I can send you 10 lbs at no charge when I send my 311344 bullets to you (those bullets are 100% linotype). I do not have a Lyman top punch as I use a Star for sizing.

Also, a "slower" powder should help. I cannot ship any to you as the HazMat fees are prohibitive.

One last item, I hope you are using an "M" die, or similar to slightly bell the case neck before seating the bullets. It may not be 100% necessary with GC's but it cannot hurt to ease the bullet into the case.

Again, a very good start.

Don Verna

Don,
Thanks for the offer for the Lino. You hold on to that. I have about 400LBS myself.
I do have some slower powders to try out.

Yes, I used a Lee universal case expanding die to flare the mouths.

[MUSTANG]

Don,
Thanks for the offer for the Lino. You hold on to that. I have about 400LBS myself.
I do have some slower powders to try out.

Yes, I used a Lee universal case expanding die to flare the mouths.

Watching thread with interest.

I have found that a .30 Lyman "M" die results in much better down range performance than using Lee Universal Case Expanding die (I have both) with cast boolits. Would postulate that would apply to Powder Coated also.

Mustang

[popper]

WW alloy + 2% Tin Try without tin and add 1% Cu., WD after cooking. I'm shooting that @ 2400 with H4895 in a 1:10 carbine, 39gr., LC, CCI LRP. I posted some recovered PC 40SW in the PC thread. > 90% recovered weight into a shale pile. It just works. I can send you 25 or so bare Accurate 31-165B to try. I use the M & FC dies. H335 was a tad more accurate(16"). I tried LeverE, slower than Varget and got good results out of the 24" upper. I am nowhere near as good a shot as you.

[waco]

So we just mixed up a new batch of alloy and cast some of the same Lee boolits.
80%COWW 20%Lino, water dropped.
Maybe I can send some of these to one of you both pre, and post PC to test the hardness for me?
I don't have the means to do that testing right now.

[waco]

So we just mixed up a new batch of alloy and cast some of the same Lee boolits.
80%COWW 20%Lino, water dropped.
Maybe I can send some of these to one of you both pre, and post PC to test the hardness for me?
I don't have the means to do that testing right now.

Popper, do you think this mix has too much tin in it?

[geargnasher]

My bad, Waco, I thought you loaded these without checks, I must be getting your project mixed up with Popper's.

LL was referring to a jacketed bullet sorting technique that involves a gauge to measure seating depth from an exact point in the ogive (where it will first touch the lands when fired) rather than OAL or whatever part of the boolit/bullet nose your particular seating punch touches. If your coatings have slight variances, the effective "jump" to the lands or amount of crush will vary and inconsistencies in this area can have a very negative effect on accuracy when you're working in the 1 moa are or less.

Here are a few "101-level things to consider about loading cast for rifles: Most rifle sizing dies are made for copper-jacketed bullets and tend to squeeze the case necks down much smaller than we want for our typically larger cast boolits. A good way around that is to use some sort of neck sizer die (bushing, collet, or just hone out the neck of a cheap FL die). Another important thing is uniform neck tension. A properly sized cast-boolit-specific expanding tool that passes through the whole neck and adds a small amount of bell to the mouth really helps. In my experience, having an expander spud about .002" smaller than the boolit diameter to be used works the best, but it depends on how hard the necks are, and how much you sized them down before expanding again. I prefer RCBS rifle cast boolit expanding dies rather than the M-type dies because more spud options are available and they flare rather than make a step at the case mouth. Others prefer Lyman M dies. Another trick is to use a VLD inside chamfer tool. I have two rifles with precision neck fit that require no bellmouthing at all, just expansion to .0015" below boolit size and a gentle VLD chamfer.

Gear

[45 2.1]

All feedback is appreciated and welcomed.

I've been doing the 308 for several decades now. You can benefit greatly from reducing your cartridges pressure level and gain accuracy. You can get 2400 fps at at a little less than 40K by using 50 cal. and 20mm surplus powders. If you want to know more, PM me. I would also be interested in the thickness of your coating in 0.0001" units.

[leadman]

The Lee boolit you are using should be capable of moa. It is in my 1903A3 Springfield along with the 200 gr Lee boolit. These are at slower velocities but can't shoot a rifle yet 'cuz of my recent surgery but hope to soon to do more testing.
I was able to get 3,465fps with a 45gr Lyman RN GC in my Contender 23" rifle barrel. Accuracy was 1.8" at 100 yards. Soon I will reshoot these with a different powder to see what the max velocity is as I had no more room in the case for additional H4895. I may set this up as a pistol to shoot it. This same barrel will shoot bulk Hornady 55gr jacketed softpoint in the 1/2" the majority of the time.

[popper]

Waco - My opinion of using tin is different from others. I began using #2, then cut with pure 50/50, then used sulfur, now just use Sb & Cu. 2% Sb worked @ 2400 in the carbine, seemed to open up a bit in the long bbl, guess fps is ~ 25-2600. 3% worked better. You might take some of your new alloy, add CuSO4 ( check the thread in lead) and compare (very close to what I use). The Cu will replace the tin, you get a fine powder dross - dispose of it. Makes a very tough alloy. I posted the pic to show that coopered alloy held up as well or better than jacketed when fired into a gravel pile. I don't have a hardness tester either, but guess your alloy should be ~ 20 BHN when WD. I cook the PC as specified, then drop back to 350F ( the PC hardens a bit) for another 20 min, drop into cold water. Copper'd will be 90% hardness in ~ one day. I pour @ 720F.

[waco]

I've been doing the 308 for several decades now. You can benefit greatly from reducing your cartridges pressure level and gain accuracy. You can get 2400 fps at at a little less than 40K by using 50 cal. and 20mm surplus powders. If you want to know more, PM me. I would also be interested in the thickness of your coating in 0.0001" units.

I don't have access to powders that slow ( that I'm aware of :) )
I'm not sure how to go about measuring the thickness of the coating down 0.0001" other than taking measurements with a micrometer at different places on the boolit.

[45 2.1]

I don't have access to powders that slow

http://www.hi-techammo.com/hitech.zkb?root&GENMENU61&object-menu6

http://www.gibrass.com/gunpowder.html

http://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=278|283|999

Wideners has WCC 867 which works well in the 308............

[xacex]

I think your going to need a booster for that. I have never tried a duplex load, but if you end up trying it I think you will get some good advice on where you should start from that fella. ^^^^^

The 400 yard 6.5 thread, and alternative loading practices still have me wrapped up in combing through every word. I don't think I will be walking down that path for a few more years or longer. Good luck!

[waco]

http://www.hi-techammo.com/hitech.zkb?root&GENMENU61&object-menu6

http://www.gibrass.com/gunpowder.html

http://www.wideners.com/itemview.cfm?dir=278|283|999

Wideners has WCC 867 which works well in the 308............

Thanks for the advice, but I cant afford to drop that kind of cash on super slow powder just for some cast experiments!

Thanks for the response though. I will be trying a different alloy and slower powders for better results.

I still need someone who can test the BHN on the same naked, and PC boolit....any takers???

Shoot! Maybe I just need a 1:14 twist .308 instead of my 1:10 :)......Some of you will get this.......No harm meant fellas!

Just kidding!

Waco

[Springfield0612]

WACO,
It sounds like you're allready on the right track and have most of this figured out. So this may be more bennificial for newer members following this and trying to figure it out as well. I've been starting into rifle reloading myself and have a thread in the Lever Gun section about my .300 Savage. We are about on the same course, the only difference is you're jumping straight to powder coat and I started my load development prior to getting my PC setup going so I started with traditional cake cutter lubing. My thought process of pistol reloading has almost zero application for getting accurate ammunition for rifle reloading. If I wouldn't have been set on the right path from members here I'm sure I'd still be trying to chase my tail to figure out this whole shooting cast in a rifle process.

How I understand it right now and others please correct me if I'm mistaken but your steps generally should be:

1) Fit the boolit in the chamber. Having the boolit kiss the rifling is key as has been explained above. Here is a great article explaining this with some how to. The only difference is he's not loading cast.

http://www.loaddata.com/articles/PDF/LD-12%20Haviland%20LR.pdf

2) Once you have your seating depth figured out, then look for the bullet fitting the barrel. Slug your bore, then size 1-2 thou over bore diameter etc.
3) Once you find your boolit design, figure out what velocity and pressures you'll be loading. Match your alloy to meet your velocity and pressure. Different BHN alloy will perform differently. If your looking to punch holes in paper and push the velocity you need a hard alloy, if your looking to work up a hunting load you need a softer alloy that will expand and not break apart. Heres a great read on the subject.

http://www.lasc.us/TaylorBulletWeakEnough.htm

Looking at your velocity of ~ 2400 FPS you need a 27 BHN alloy but if the previous post about your pressure being at ~ 56000 PSI you need 40 BHN alloy. So I think the reccomendation of a new powder is to try and get your velocity to match the PSI to match the BHN of your alloy.

4) Now make your loads. Once you do be aware that bullet run out will and can affect accuracy as has been explained above and also explaind very well in the loaddata article that I mentioned above.

5) As with reloading cast in pistol if you crimp the necks down too hard onto the boolit you can and will swage it and make it smaller than it should be. Just add enough tension to prevent bullet setback and hold the boolit straight and true.

Thanks for your efforts and keep it going! We are all anxiously awaiting more results and data!

[waco]

Thanks for the advice. I'm trying to decide what powder to try next. I have a few that are slower that 4895.
None of my manuals show cast loads with slower powders , so so research is in order for load data.
I'll be sure to report back when more testing has been done.
Waco.

[geargnasher]

Waco, you need to PM 45 2.1. He can teach you a thing or two and he dang sure won't stunt your brain. Powders that tend to burn more slowly than what you're used to seeing recommended for the .308 make it easier, in some ways, to maintain excellent accuracy at high velocity, but that isn't the whole story so don't think any of this is carved in stone. I suggested the powders I did because they got me to the place you want to be with a rifle having an even shorter barrel than yours, and without the benefit of PC.

Gear

[popper]

Have you gotten to try the harder alloy yet? I don't see any problem getting to 2400 with 4895, I do it with a 1:10 carbine. Varget should work good too. I've used HF red & white, no experience with black yet. It may perform different. I did find (when I had the safety on) that I flinch-push, then during dry firing, my shoulder moves when I pull. Lots of practice when it gets above 40F.

[waco]

I'll try and PC some of the new boolits this weekend. I'm going to send some to Alaskanguy for a BHN test, both as cast WD, and after PC and WD.
We just got 6" of snow here today, (odd for us), so I'm not sure when I'll be able to get out again. Not going to be above freezing for a few days either. Once again, us sissy coastal folks aren't used to this kinda weather!

I'll let you guys know when I have more to add to this.
Waco

[popper]

waco - be glad for the snow. we're iced in, son hasn't had power for 2 days -trees ice and take out the power lines. Prickett had some problems with HT the PC boolits, don't know his alloy but they got soft after the HT/WD. You have arsenic in the alloy?

[waco]

It's an 80/20 mix. COWW/Lino

Maybe trace amounts in the WW?

[popper]

That should be fine.

[waco]

I might break down sometime and buy a bag of shot just for the arsenic value alone....

[waco]

So I just heard from Alaskanguy. He received my test boolits in the mail today and was able to test the BHN for me.

The alloy was 80/20 COWW/LINO that was water dropped from the mold.

I am VERY excited about the results he gave me.

The boolits as cast, then WD, had a very consistent BHN of 20-21

The same boolit that had then been PC and put in a 400 deg. oven for 20 minutes, then water quenched had a very consistent BHN of 32-33

This, in conjunction with a slower powder, I believe I should be able to reach speeds of 2400-2500fps with MOA accuracy.

This time around I will also seat the boolits to the proper length, the FIRST time, and will also neck size instead of FL sizing the brass.

This will be a good test as to whether or not the strength of the previous alloy was not up to snuff @ 2325fps in a 1:10 twist barrel.

4895 was the first and only powder I had tried. This time I'll give some slower powders a try. Maybe some...

Varget
4320
4064
4350

I must say I was shocked by the 10 BHN gain in the alloy!

This gives me hope.

Thanks again for the help Mark.

[AlaskanGuy]

My pleasure... Glad to be of service to this experiment.... :drinks:

Give the 4064 a try... Varget will be great.... But i dont have much varget...lol i do have a ton of 4064 though....lol

[waco]

My pleasure... Glad to be of service to this experiment.... :drinks:

Give the 4064 a try... Varget will be great.... But i dont have much varget...lol i do have a ton of 4064 though....lol


You and me both.

[Cane_man]

what about 2400?

[waco]

what about 2400?


I'm thinking a slower powder will have a more "gentle" push on the boolit.

[waco]

I have an NOE 311365 mold on the way. Will test these once I get a chance.

[waco]

Got the new NOE 311365 mold yesterday. Cast some up tonight. 80-20 WW-Lino water dropped.

Hope to PC over the weekend and load some up.

More to come.

94313

[Love Life]

Sweet!!

[waco]

So I just received my new 5 cav. NOE 311365 mold the other day. Awesome mold.

After break in, I mixed up some 80-20 coww-Lino and water dropped them.

The next day I tested them at around 23 BHN with my pencils.

I was able to get some PC tonight. HF black with some HF red mixed in. Kind of a dark plum look in the right light.

94403

I sized them to .311" after the PC

The GC were installed before PC

94404

The boolits all weigh a very consistent 203+_ .5 gr

94405

I hope to get some loaded soon to test. Shooting for 2200fps and 1.5 MOA @ 100 yards and hitting steel at

500 yards.

[dverna]

Very nice Great looking bullets.


I have the same mold but, with temperatures averaging 10 degrees here for the next week, I do not have the dedication to cast anything right now.
Your accuracy goals are identical to mine. Sub moa would be nice but that is why the make 175 SMK's. Getting a cast bullet to consistently shoot 1.5 moa would give a lot of inexpensive practice

Good luck!!

Don Verna

[waco]

Thanks Don. I'll be sure to post the results.

[geargnasher]

Continuing to watch with interest....

Gear

[waco]

The loaded rounds.

94538

35.5gr of IMR 8208 XBR
37gr of H335

Might be a couple weeks till I can go shooting.
The wife has two surgery over the next two weeks.
I'll post results when I can.
Walter.

[Beagle333]

'Best of luck to the Mrs and I hope all goes smoothly. :smile:

[waco]

'Best of luck to the Mrs and I hope all goes smoothly. :smile:

Thank you Beagle.

[popper]

Waco - that seating puts the GC below the shoulder?

[waco]

Waco - that seating puts the GC below the shoulder?

Yeah, I know. The boolit is touching the rifling as it is.

Whatcha gonna do?

I was concerned about this myself as far as how they will perform.

[popper]

As long as the GC is the only part in the shoulder it should work OK. I seated the base inside the neck and groups @ 100 were close to the ones @ 50 with deeper seating.

[waco]

I seated them as long as I could. There is a fair amount past the shoulder. That's a long boolit!!! :)

[waco]

Upon further inspection, the gas check is the only thing that just gets below the very base of the shoulder.

[waco]

94596

[classicballistx]

Waco's initial effort and the cerebral followups here have really gotten me stirred. I'm anxious to see the next turn of events and the time gap has me concerned for both the perseverance of the players and their wellbeing. It's been a lousy winter.

[Love Life]

I believe Waco is dealing with a loss in the family at this time.

[waco]

I know it's been awhile. My wife had surgery on both of her eyes, my father passed away, and I'm working 56 hours a week until July. It's been hectic. I'll post more results when I can work up some different loads and hit the hills. I'll keep you posted. Sorry for the delay.
Walter

[sfcairborne]

waco, you probably know this but, close your bolt on the 700, run a cleaning rod down to touch the closed bolt, make a mark on the cleaning rod with a marker, now pull the cleaning rod out, remove the bolt, drop a bullet into the barrel, hold there with light pressure ith a tooth brush, now run you cleaning rod down the barrel until it touches the bullet, make another mark, meassure the distance of the two marks with your dial calipers, this is your max COAL now back that down,some rifle like to have bullets seated to touching the lands, some will like them seated .5 to .20 thousandths off, liking a little jump. hope this helps.

[popper]

Keep the GC in the neck. Yes, this one doesn't have a GC but the base is where it should be located. With only the GC out of the neck, it did OK - rear band out of the neck, not so good. Even without the GC these are close to MOA @ 100 ~ 1600. And your brass is prettier than mine.
99884

[waco]

I'll just have to shoot them. I can't seat them any longer.

I also need to revisit the Lee 180 RN.

I shot a 6 shot .910" group at 50 using SR4759 and a Dacron filler.
These were not PC but lubed.

I'll try PC and moving back to 100 yards, but they showed promise.

[w5pv]

In my old 06 I had what I considered awfulf good luck with IMR 4831 3/4 inch at 75 yrds with a 200 grain gas checked sp.I guessamated around 2200 fps with 40 grains IMR 4831.

[Walter Laich]

always appreciate you folks that are willing to do the work, then report it to us. Usually twice the work but we do realize this and thank you.