Looking at a new .45 pistol. Looking for pics and reviews

[Bullshop Junior]

Starting a saving stash so for my 21st i can buy a new 45 pistol. So far the three i have looked at and liked were, of course a 1911, a Ruger SR45, and the sig P220.

So what i wanna know, is what is your favorite 45 pistol, why, how does it shoot/handle, and a pic. Im looking for a gun i will pack every day for a long time, so i wanna be sure i get the right one.

By the way....im a big guy with big hands and font want a short barrel or compact. This is gonna be shot for fun too and i wanna be able to hit stuff with it. I want a full frame 45.

[garym1a2]

Its hard to beat a Glock21SF. It's accurate, shoots lead well and is very reliable plus holds upto 14 rounds.

[Bullshop Junior]

Im sorry. I cant do glocks. Should jave daid that in my first post. I just cant stand them...

[garym1a2]

Well I had a Kimber 1911 TLE-RL2 version. Its an accurate gun, a little more than the Glock.
It hold 8 round mags verse 13 for the Glock. it has a great trigger, much better than the Glock. Its easy to fire fast just like a glock can only you are limited by capacity.
The downsides of the Kimber are heavy, tools needed to field strip and clean, safety, limited capacity and the biggest is they not near as reliable as Glock plus it costs twice as much.

[6bg6ga]

I own a Sig Tac Pac. I have owned a number of 45's. For the money the Sig 1911 is one hell of a shooter. The gun is as accurate as a 70 series Colt Gold Cup Mational Match in my hand. It has zero malfunctions and I can put a bushel basket out and catch the empties unlike the Colts. I own several Glocks but would not purchase one in 45acp.

I have a thread I started yesterday that shows a target set at 25 yards with 5 shots made off hand.

[btroj]

A 1911 is pretty hard to beat. Problem is deciding which one! The Ruger sure is priced right and being a Ruger you know it is well built.

[buckwheatpaul]

I love the 1911's....Kimber stainless Pro Carry was my carry gun....the problem with 1911's is that they are extremely high maintenance guns....that doesn't make them bad...it just means that you have to clean and service them more....some people do not like cocked and locked.....I have carried since 1974 .... and if you use your slide safety; keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to press the trigger; and practice, practice, and practice some more you will have the very best gun you can carry ...IMHO! I would recommend shooting at least a box a month to stay tuned in as well....have a happy Thanksgiving and a Merry Christmas.......your servant, Paul

[6bg6ga]

I don't see that 1911's are high maintenance guns at all. My officers which I carry 50% of the time I shoot and do not have to clean it for 3 or 4 hundred rounds and then I clean it simply because it looks kinda nasty. It was a *** out of the box when purchased over twenty years ago. I bought it when they first started to sell them and cannot remember the year. Anyway replaced all the inners and its reliable and shoots very good.

[xman777]

I own a SIG P220. I carried this weapon in Iraq and Afghanistan in the worst of the worst weather and it is still my EDC. The gun has many thousands of rounds through the barrel and I do not take it easy on this gun at all. But I do take care of it. Easy maintenance, hell and back reliability and it comes with a price. The magazines are OMG expensive, if you can break it (and I dare you to try), it will be expensive to fix as well. Those should be factors to consider when buying a handgun. My cost of ownership over the past 10 years is null though. I positively love this gun and it has saved my hide multiple times, so the answer, at least for this former Navy EOD is get a Sig! This is just my personal experience. I'll never need another pistol.

[jsheyn]

I have a Taurus FS1911...STEAR WAY CLEAR OF THIS ONE.

My best bud has a Springfield operator...best and most accurate 1911 I have shot!!

[Dan Cash]

I have a whole herd of Kimbers and Colts in government model and Officer model configuration. The Kimbers are basic guns with standard extractors (not the external spring loaded hook). The Kimbers have a definate edge on the Colts for accuracy but both breeds are equally reliable. I don't find these pistols to require any more maintenance than any other hand gun and while I am not acquainted with the Kimber TLE-RL2 version, none of my 1911s require any tool to completely strip the weapon to include removal of hammer, trigger, sear etc.

The 1911 is arguably the most reliable pistol in the world in its basic format. People tinker with them and modify them into jam-o-matics. The greatest hinderance for the pistol are the magazines people use. Short lip magazines work ok for wad cutter ammo but for maximum reliability the long lip of the GI magazine is definately wanted. Wilson magazines, while having a short lip, have demonstrated a very high level of reliability in my pistols.

[seaboltm]

I have owned more versions of the 1911 than I can recall, and I don't currently own one at all. That says something I suppose. Just sold my last Colt a couple of weeks ago. I was always a Colt 1911 / Browning Hi-Power type. I too HATED Glocks. Then I became a law enforcement officer. Now I own four Glock's including a 21 in 45 ACP. The Kriss submachine gun magazines fit nicely in the 21 (if your state allows that). But you say you hate Glocks. Nothing wrong with a Sig 220. I have owned two, loved them both. I never could get around the 8 shot limitation of the 1911 or the 220. Having said that, I would take a 220 over a 1911 any day of the week. A 1911 that will shoot reliably will likely cost you more than a 220, and the 220 is a better gun in my opinion. Also, I have owned HK USP's in 45 and loved them all.

[6bg6ga]

I have a whole herd of Kimbers and Colts in government model and Officer model configuration. The Kimbers are basic guns with standard extractors (not the external spring loaded hook). The Kimbers have a definate edge on the Colts for accuracy but both breeds are equally reliable. I don't find these pistols to require any more maintenance than any other hand gun and while I am not acquainted with the Kimber TLE-RL2 version, none of my 1911s require any tool to completely strip the weapon to include removal of hammer, trigger, sear etc.

The 1911 is arguably the most reliable pistol in the world in its basic format. People tinker with them and modify them into jam-o-matics. The greatest hinderance for the pistol are the magazines people use. Short lip magazines work ok for wad cutter ammo but for maximum reliability the long lip of the GI magazine is definately wanted. Wilson magazines, while having a short lip, have demonstrated a very high level of reliability in my pistols.

You have to compare apples to apples. The Colt officers trigger and all colt triggers except the 70 series gold cups are junk. The officers I own after getting new internals in it and trigger job will shoot with a Kimber. The trigger pull on my officers is a nice crisp safe 3.5 lbs instead of the 5 or 6 lbs stock with 1/8" of creap.

Kimbers are nice. Colts when warmed over will work fine. Never shot the 220 so I cannot comment on it. The Glock I don't like the feel of the grip with the extra size there.

It all depends on what you want and what you are comfortable with.

[bobthenailer]

I personaly have 45 acp handguns from Colt ,S&W ,Springfield ,Caspian , Para Ordance . i like them all if you have big hands test drive a double stack Para Ord ! it may fit your hands better than a single stack platform ? and there a top quality gun.
MY para is the P12 with alloy frame & 3 .5" barrel, i have installed night sights, Ed Brown grip & ambi thumb saftey's i had this gun for over 20 years now and it has several K rounds through it and is just as accurate as some of my 5" guns and showes no sign's of wear.
I also have two Kahr's in 45 acp a CW45 & TP45 I like them alot! they have replaced the P12 as my carry gun there about 9 oz lighter than the alloy frame P12 and the single stack frame doesent print on outer wear as much, there very accurate & reliable and the factory trigger pull is like a tuned S&W DA revolver trigger pull @ 5lbs

[300savage]

I have owned more versions of the 1911 than I can recall, and I don't currently own one at all. That says something I suppose. Just sold my last Colt a couple of weeks ago. I was always a Colt 1911 / Browning Hi-Power type. I too HATED Glocks. Then I became a law enforcement officer. Now I own four Glock's including a 21 in 45 ACP. The Kriss submachine gun magazines fit nicely in the 21 (if your state allows that). But you say you hate Glocks. Nothing wrong with a Sig 220. I have owned two, loved them both. I never could get around the 8 shot limitation of the 1911 or the 220. Having said that, I would take a 220 over a 1911 any day of the week. A 1911 that will shoot reliably will likely cost you more than a 220, and the 220 is a better gun in my opinion. Also, I have owned HK USP's in 45 and loved them all.

best first post i have ever seen, this guy will be an assett here.

[dsbock]

My daily carry is a Rock Island Armory Tactical model. Other than one FTE on the first magazine, it has reliably fed everything.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k196/dsbock/Firearms/RIA-Loadout.jpg

I also have a Springfield GI model. I replaced a few parts to make it more accurate for reenacting. It has also been perfectly reliable other than with very wide hollowpoints.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k196/dsbock/Firearms/Springfield-1911A1.jpg

These days, almost any 1911 from one of the major manufacturers will be good to go. As originally designed, the 1911 is a rugged, reliable, combat accurate pistol that (with reasonable care) will outlast your grandchildren.

David

[pdawg_shooter]

I have both a Colt Series 70 and Sig P220. I think the 1911 is a bit better built but when I carry it is mostly the Sig just because it is lighter. I would depend on either one for protection.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I carry a Colt as a peace officer and have for many years. I've got 2 Series 70's and am currently carrying Colt's 1911 lightweight 5" blued model. Out of the box it's dead centered accurate and has never jammed on me. The ambi safety had to go tho and it was replaced with a Wilson low profile model. A local large law enforcement agency purchased and issued Kimber 1911 .45's a while ago. The officers could choose a Glock or a Kimber. A lot of guys chose the Kimber but the Kimber didn't last and they went away from it, sorry I don't have any more details. A long time ago a bunch of guys on my law enforcement agency bought the Sig P220 but they didn't stick with them. I think they didn't like the double single trigger and single stack magazine. The guns never broke or failed tho. The Glock has proliferated the law enforcement market, but I think it's because they are cheap and simple. I'm with you, I'd never carry a Glock. If you get a Colt or a Springfield you have a platform you can work with. The Kimbers are what they are out of the box, you can't really work on them. You either get a good one and your happy or a bad one and your stuck with it.

[9.3X62AL]

Given your distaste for Glocks, it is difficult to argue against the SIG-Sauer P-220 as a 45 ACP carry pistol. Full-size grip, Commander barrel length, far simpler field-strip for routine maintenance. The only caveat I would make would be to stick to SIG OEM magazines. The P-220 is my daily carry pistol.

SIG is rolling out a double-stack 45 ACP built on a variant of their P-226 frame--the P-227. It is supposed to hold 10 rounds in the mag, which is convenient for idiot oppressive states like California that only trust their citizens with 10 rounds on board their pistols at a time. If mag capacity of 7 or 8 rounds concerns you, this might be a viable option. The P-226 is a bit wider through the grips than is the P-220, but not greatly so.

I am fond of the COLT 1911A1 variants out there, with some caveats. The base-model new guns don't impress me; the XSE series pistols REALLY do, though. Had I not found a Gold Cup at a killer price in like-new shape a couple years ago, an XSE Commander would have gotten the nod. I still might scrounge one up. USE COLT MAGAZINES--they are very close to original Browning specs, and are very affordable in the bargain. I've fired one example of the Ruger 1911A1, and it left a very positive impression; one of their Commanders may steal my heart, even though my agency doesn't authorize the make for carry. That last factor carries weight with me--I object to spending $1K on a pistol and NOT being able to cart it around as needed.

[Love Life]

Get a used Colt 1911.

[jlchucker]

I've got one of the new Remington's. A couple of sharp corners near the magazine well, but other than that, it seems like a really nice 1911. I'm more of a rifle guy than a handgun person, but this one has all the feel of the GI guns that I was familiar with back in the day. A bonus is that all of the parts are tight, and the finish is excellent. Better pistol shots than me have fired my new Remmie, and all like it--including the guys who are competition shooters.

[ShooterAZ]

The 1911's fit my hand the best, and just feel right to me. I have owned a Sig P220, but ended up trading it. I don't care for Glocks either, too top heavy for my liking. I don't have any problem with 8 round single stack magazines, just carry an extra one or 2. I have 1911's by Colt, Kimber, Para and S&W. All have been 99.9% reliable for the most part, and I use Wilson Combat magazines exclusively (except Para P14). My most recent purchase is the S&W 1911, and it is the most accurate out of the box 1911 I have owned. The trigger is a tad heavy, but it is still in the break in mode and I can feel it getting a little better each time I take it out and shoot it. It is still brand new. My suggestion is to see if you can try out some different guns...and see how they feel for you. I can't really say anything bad about any of the guns mentioned, just that they might not be right for me.

[nicholst55]

Don't overlook the S&W M&P in .45 ACP. They are offered in a compact (8+1) and full size (10+1) size, and the Compact can use the Full Size mags with an inexpensive adapter block. They also make 14-round mags that fit the full size and come with an adapter; these can be used with the Compact by adding another adapter block. The M&P does have a polymer frame, but the similarity to Glocks ends there. The ergonomics of the M&P are far better than the Glock, and it fits my hand much better.

The M&P is available with and without an external thumb safety; the thumb safety model is available with a magazine disconnect as well. My M&P has never balked with any ammo, including very wide hollow points (Cor-Bon 230 grain +P), and is more accurate than I am.

[scattershot]

I have 3 1911s. A Colt Government Model, a Ruger SR1911, and a Rock Island Armory tactical. Any of the three shoot better than I do, but for enjoyable shooting, I reach for my S&W M&P compact. I really like this pistol. As stated above, it takes 8 rd mags, but you can use the larger S&W mags if you need to. It has replaceable backstraps, so you can find the one that fits you the best. Soft shooting and accurate. Check one out.

[frank505]

My Sig C3 (officer frame, commander slide) is lightweight, easy to carry appendix style and very accurate. Wonderful trigger too. Or a PO Expert that just runs and is good, maybe not excellent, but good. Either one..............................not a fan of the plastic pistols except for the SA XDMs.

[ktw]

Had a Colt Commander a long time ago. Didn't like it. Traded it off.

Stayed away from auto pistols for a long time, but then bought an EAA Witness in 45 ACP a year ago. CZ 75 clone and 45 ACP. Best of both worlds. Use DA or SA, 10 shot magazine, it has been very reliable and the price is right.

-ktw

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have three Para-Ord wide bodies, a very early P-14 5 inch on an aluminum frame (my most carried), a P-12 with a Commander frame (hot weather carry), and a Stainless P-14 Limited (most shot). All feed and function with light 155 semi-wadcutters, Wolf steel-cased junk to Corbon +P 230 's. The two 5-inch pistols are at least 2 inch guns at 25 yards with good H&G 68 200 grain bullets and moderate loads, a 12" gong is doable over 100 yards. I do not have huge hands (Medium glove - very Tight, Large glove - easy fit) and I find these pistols comfortable. MOST after market 1911 parts work (grip safety, slide release, sears, disconnectors, hammers) but Para-Ordnance covers most desired parts. I did get rid of the polymer magazine release, its biggest fault. Ideal for big hands.

[Rick Hodges]

I would look seriously at the stainless Ruger's either the commander length or 5" version. I have owned and carried a Series 70 Colt 1911 and two Sig P220's for everyday use. I loved the Sigs but they are aluminum framed double action first shot auto's. I don't like that feature but it was mandated by my department. The only gun that I have sold that I really miss is that Colt 1911. I have handled and shot a new Ruger it would be my choice if I were buying a new 45acp.

[MtGun44]

If you can stand the cost, the Dan Wesson 1911s are absolutely superb guns, perfectly fitted
and wonderfully accurate. Don't make the mistake of comparing them to Colts, Kimbers, Sigs, Rugers,
Remingtons and Springfields. Their real competition is way upmarket - Les Baer and Bill Wilson's
semi-custom guns - at twice the price of the DW and more. If you want a 1911 that will be
100% reliable and shoot 1-1.5" groups at 25 yds, with a superb trigger and tremendous satisfaction
of owning a fine piece of machinery equal in every way to a $2500-$3500 gun for less than half
that, this is how you get there. Only my Wilson LEComps are equals, although I am a big
fan of the original Kimber Custom Classic (or Classic Custom, I can never remember) and have
put about 40-50K thru that one.

I am not connected to CZ in any way other than I know some of the folks that run it, and I own a
pair of DW 1911s that are absolutely wonderful to take to the range.

Of you can't handle the price of the DW (I wouldn't have been able to at your age!) I'd give a big
thumbs up to the Ruger 1911 5" or the Kimber Custom Classic II - although the Ruger avoids the
silly firing pin safety by using a titanium firing pin and matched spring - a much more appropriate
solution to a non-existent problem.

Bill

[Deep Six]

I have a 2011 production Colt XSE Rail Gun (1911 with a rail, basically). Supposedly Colt invested in some new machinery about 5 years back and has really tightened up the tolerances on their 1911s. Mine seems to support this as was very tight and well finished from the box. It's more accurate than needed for an auto. The one time I shot it off a rest it was inside 3" at 25 yards for 2 magazines. Reliability has also been superb with several different styles of cast and jacketed bullets, including radical hollow points, SWC, hardball, and even 255 gr flat nose boolits intended for 45 Colt. The one thing that will hang it up is if 0.452"+ boolits are seated too far out of the case as it has a tight throat.

The only other gun I considered at the time was the new Ruger 1911, because it was over $200 less, if you could find one. However, being the original, the Colt name is definitely worth something over the competition. Mine is a 2011 "100 Years of Service" gun which is what sealed the deal for me. With Colt's new machinery and improved tolerances and fit/finish of the latest guns, I see no reason to consider anything else in their price range.

[9.3X62AL]

Yeah, I'm kinda hamstrung by regulations when it comes to choice of CCW iron now. In the 1911 flavor, it is Colt--S&W--SIG-Sauer--or Springfield Armory.......9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP. For toys/recreation, there are no limits......but it seems unwise to tie up $800-$1200 in a sideiron example that can't go along loaded and ready for whatever occurs. Hence the P-220. My Series 80 GCNM has run flawlessly with my mandated duty loads (W-W Ranger SXT 230s), but that Elliason rear sight does not strike me as being real sturdy for carry use. NICE sight picture, though!

I have a REAL AFFINITY for Commander-size pistols. They do so many things so darn well, much like a 4" double-action 357 Magnum revolver. Close to half of my centerfire autopistol fleet consists of Commander-form pistols--4" to 4-1/2" barrels, full-size receivers. The recipe just works.

[robertbank]

Ummmm I am impressed with the STI Trojan. I have one in 9MM and have shot lots of the .45acp variety. The best money for value gun STI makes IMHO. Avoid the Spartan. We have a shooter up here who swears by his even though he can't complete an IPSC stage without a jam. Too, my next .45acp would be the M&P. You are into carry and the lighter weight is not to be ignored. Al's Sig 220 is an option I have yet to pursue. To many toys to buy and to little time to play with them all.

Take Care

Bob
ps I would recommend the Norinco Commander 4.25" for $349Cdn but you folks can't get them.

[Bullshop Junior]

Lots of good info here...

The 3 guns that are readaly available new here, are the Ruger SR1911, the rock island 1911, and that ruger sr45.

Surprised no one has commented on the SR45 honestly. It seemed like a very nice pistol. Not that i feel I need more then 7 rounds, but if I did, the SR45 holds ten, and had a pretty nice feel, although i wasnt allowed to shoot it.

[scattershot]

They mayhave fixed them since I had mine, but Ruger seems to have QCproblems with the sr series. I agree, they are nice looking.pistols, and feel.great in the hand, but I'm not inclined.to.take a.chance with another.one.

Of the three.you.mentioned.as.being.available, I'd go with the sr1911. I think stainless.would be a.big plus where you are.

[ole 5 hole group]

Lot of good suggestions. You may very well be horse trading 1911's for a few years until you find one that suits you.

If where you are living in Alaska presents a good chance of being salt sprayed or maybe being dropped or fallen on a time or two, you might want to think of spending a little money up front once you find the right pistol. That being either ion-bonded or the hard hat treatment of the entire pistol.

There are other options as well to spend your money on depending upon your needs. If you shoot so-so like most folks but want to do a little better without putting in a whole lot of trigger time you could mill your slide and install a red dot with a iron rear backup sight, just in front of the red dot.

The backup sight is just in case you feel you may have a need for it, if the red dot would ever fail, as you can use the backup iron sight by sighting through the red dot glass/plastic. Some have it, most don't - I do just cus.

If you like the feel of a conventional government model 1911 I would recommend you save a little more and purchase a used Les Baer PII with the 1.5" option - if found, should be able to be purchased from a low $1,200 (rare find) to $1,400/$1,600. You will probably never shoot to that particular pistol's capability but at least you'll know when you miss your target by a mile, it had nothing to do with the pistol or load.

Purchase what you can comfortably afford and what feels right to you when you're holding it, reload, and enjoy the experience of the World of the 1911.

[Bullshop Junior]

I have honestly shot quite a few 1911s. I really do like them. I was just looking at other options. The few ruger 1911s i have shot, i have been able to keep under 2" at 30 yards. I am a fair shot with a pistol. As a kid, growing up in the gun shop with all the free ammo i could dream of i shot A LOT, and developed a fairly good hand. I dont do red dots, or scopes on pistols. I prefer iron.

[Bullshop Junior]

They mayhave fixed them since I had mine, but Ruger seems to have QCproblems with the sr series. I agree, they are nice looking.pistols, and feel.great in the hand, but I'm not inclined.to.take a.chance with another.one.

Of the three.you.mentioned.as.being.available, I'd go with the sr1911. I think stainless.would be a.big plus where you are.

What exactly do you mean by QC problems?

[scattershot]

Light strikes, terrible triggers, parts breakage barrel peening, etc. I'll have to say that mine (9mm) was pretty accurate, when I could wrestle.the 12# gritty trigger into submission, but on mine when I was shooting the LCI just broke in two and fell off. As I said, they may have fixed the problems, but since I found my M&P 45, I'm a happy camper.

Check.out Ruger Forum.net for more.info on the various problems.

[robertbank]

The Ruger 1911 has only a fair rating up here. To many QC problems in a country with virtually no real service centers for the pistol. Rugers have a reputation of being good kit guns. I have their New Model Blackhawk, covertible in .45acp/45Colt. Great gun but required polishing the crown and reaming of the cylinders to shoot with accuracy. Once tinkered with I would bet my life on the gun.

Take Care

Bob

[JWFilips]

I recently got a Remington R1 in Stainless Steel and I'm loving it! For a stock pistol I can't believe how accurate it is and seems to be very well made and solid. I'm just loving it

[Love Life]

Colts have ponies on them. Buy a used one and eliminate the heart ache of depreciation. On the used market, I would pay significantly less for a used Ruger, Remington, or Kimber. That's just me and YMMV.

[Bullshop Junior]

I was lookin on gun broker and the thing i lied about the SR45 was its cheap, but i do like the look and feel of a 5" 1911. What about the rock island pistols?

[Dave C.]

The best 1911 pistol for the money is the S.A. Range Officer. It comes with good adjustable sights. It will shoot 4" groups at 50 yds. (yes fifty yards) With good ammo. The last time I priced them they sold for $800. Check out Springfield's sight for all the info.
Dave C.

[boltons75]

Everyday all day carry, look into the Springfield xds, compact light weight 45.

[scattershot]

One of mine is a RIA Tactical model, and it's a great pistol. Actually, when I got this piztol I sold a Kimber, I was that impressed with it. I don't know how it will hold up in the long run, but it's run with nary a bobble since I've had it.

[alrighty]

Non 1911 ,I really like the S&W M/P .45 and with an Apex duty/carry kit and aftermarket sights it is very nice.It is accurate , reliable and with the interchangeable back-straps it is very ergonomic.That being said I still prefer the 1911 pistol.I have a Ruger SR1911 and kept it box stock other than changing out the sights to a wider notch rear and a fiber optic front.IMO the Ruger SR1911 and the STI Trojan are good guns straight from the factory.
I have 1911's made by Springfield and Colt that I like better than the Ruger but they are neither stock nor anywhere close to the Ruger in price.

[gandydancer]

I have a S & W SS 1911 from 1997 one of the 1st of 1200 hundred made by S&W and Barrels made by Briley of shotgun choke fame. and with thousands of rounds and cleaning it only when I could not stand it my self its as tight as the day I got it.High maint? not really. I have owned them all at one time or another. If I was in the market for another one today it would be a Rock Island Tactical. with out question. I have shot six RA"s in the last two years at the LGS I hang out at and liked them over all of the others out there in the slab side 1911's and the best prices still under $600.00 the remintons where ok about $200 more would only shoot hardball "out of the box" & very heavy triggers.
PS. I never liked cocked & locked on the slab side. my S&W 1911 has the cylinder & slide conversion of carry. hammer down round in chamber safety on. Flip safety off hammer cocks ready to fire.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Too bad you don't like Glocks My G21 SF is one of, if not the, best auto pistol I have ever shot.

AS far as reliability goes I doubt anything that is made by a reputable company is NOT going to be reliable.

The simplicity of the Glock platform is second to none. You can do three things with a Glock, insert mag, rack slide, pull trigger. All other types have more stuff to do and that stuff can slow you down when you least need to be slowed down.

As far as learning to shoot a defensive pistol well, the Glock is the premier platform for this purpose and after you learn to shoot it you can more easily branch out to other platforms and be able to master them faster since you already have all the basics down. Basics that are much harder to learn on a more complicated gun.

However people seldom want to branch out after becoming that familiar with the Glock platform.

One of he biggest problems I see in people just learning to shoot a handgun is trying to learn with an overly complicated gun. Trying to learn how with a De-cocker is a virtual waste of time. Been there done that. The manual of arms is just to complicated, and rather than developing good basic skills all you do is fight with the gun.

Also, and this may offend some, if you haven't shot a pistol in a serious training environment, you may "think" you know how to shoot said pistol.

I am here to tell you that you don't. And I will use myself as a example.

My first class at Front Sight was taken with my CZ 40 P a .40 S&W Decocker and a nice gun. Since I was a seasoned pistol shooter with years of plinking and time at the local pistol range shooting at Bullseye targets, (not for scores, just shooting at them) I was pretty sure I would be taught exactly nothing in this class and in fact would be teaching said class before the end of the first day.

I managed to finish 39th out of 40 in the class and the one person I beat was the woman I was coaching who had never fired any gun in her life!

After 12 more 4 day classes I have some idea of what I am doing now. And more properly I can tell if someone else knows what he is doing or not.

What ever you decide on and it sounds like it is going to be a 1911 of one brand or another I highly recommend that you attend a reputable shooting school, and learn the proper way to operate the gun and shoot it.

You will achieve far more with ANY platform thru intensive training and drilling than you will get in ten years of plinking and shooting at targets at the local range.

Thinking you know, is not the same as actually knowing.

You will soon find out that it more about you, than which gun you chose.

My .02

Randy

[c1skout]

I've got a Rock Island in 38 super. I've only put about 700 rounds through it so far but it seems to be well made and is definitely accurate. The company has an excellent reputation for customer service also.

My other 1911 is a Springfield "loaded" 45 that I bought new about 18 years ago. I've put thousands of rounds through this one with no stoppages other than when I had poorly made (by me) reloads. I've only used factory Springfield magazines. I had to send this one back home when it was about 5 or 6 years old for a new barrel. The original developed a hairline crack on the barrel hood that I noticed when cleaning the gun. Springfield replaced the barrel and sent me the gun back inside of 2 weeks and then mailed me a check to cover my shipping costs.

I don't think you would go wrong with a gun from either of these companies.

[Love Life]

Randy, as usual, speaks the truth. I have flip flopped between Glocks, 1911s, and revolvers quite a bit through the years.

It is far easier for me to pick up either a Glock or a Revolver and get back into good shooting shape. With the 1911 I lose the muscle memory of flicking down the safety upon draw, and flicking up the safety to holster. I have to put in A TON of work to get back to where it becomes muscle memory again. Even then, being covered in grime and sweat you can still "miss" (being a weak girl and not getting a good thumb on it) and find your self in a ***** situation. Also, some people like to carry the 1911 with the hammer down (dumb) for safety reasons or what not. Why? I have no clue, but don't do that.

With the Glocks and Revolvers, you draw, aquire, shoot. Rinse and repeat all with a consistent trigger pull with no worries about flicking the safety off.

You have your eyes set on the 1911 or Ruger SR45. I can't help on the SR45 as I have never owned any of those models so I would give the nod to the 1911.

If you can't take courses (they can be EXPENSIVE) then spend your time doing draw, aquire, fire drills. Do a bunch of them. Dry fire..alot. Enter into some of those competitions that have you shooting from barriers, around walls, etc.

If you have the cheese, then go to a course.

[oldfart1956]

The first week in Oct. I picked up a new Remington R1 at the local gun show. $475 out the door. Less than the R.I.A.'s he had in the case. Go figger. But I buy a lot of guns off Ed and that might have a bearing on it. :) I just bought it because it was cheaper to shoot than a .22 rimfire given the current shortages. And I was shooting the pre-WW1 entirely too much. About 1000 rds. thru it so far and the only issue is it doesn't like the Lyman 452460. And yes I've tried several different mags. Still working on that. As mentioned, some sharp edges around the magazine well. Need to take the belt sander to that. Also, doesn't seem to be any drop-in (adjustable) replacement sights available without modifying something. Odd sized dovetails. Seems to be well made and fitted, no slop and everything works. Very accurate with the 225gr. roundnose cast boolits. Brass ejection is...erratic. Most will fall in the same pile then one bounces off my forehead. It's a fine plinker and I'd give it 8 out of 10 stars for the price. Audie...the Oldfart..

[MtGun44]

Ruger is one of the nicest made and fitted of the $700-800 range of pistols, I have tuned up one and
looked over the guts in detail. NICE GUN, way worth it and has none of the silly firing pin locking
krap that Colt, Kimber, SA and many others insist on adding to complicate the trigger mechanism
unnecessarily. Kimber Classic Custom II is very good, altho it has the firing pin block baloney. It
will be a very good gun for you, I have had one of the previous Custom Classics for 14 years and many
10s of thousands of rounds - great example of the breed.

If you can afford to treat yourself - move up to a Dan Wesson 1911, but you will pay about $1000
used to $1200-1500 new. For this you get a pistol every bit equal of the $2500-3500 class of semi
custom 1911s.

Bill

[BNE]

I went to an NRA convention ~12 years ago. I saw a $2,000 Les Baer and asked the guy why it was so expensive. He explained that all of the parts were made to tighter tolerances and the gun was more accurate because of that. He told me to push on the barrell and then try to wiggle the slide. IT WAS TIGHT. Not being able to afford a $2,000+ pistol, I went around to EVERY vendor that carried a 1911 and I found that Kimbers were the tightest "stock" pistols. A few years and a $1,000 later, I bought a Kimber TLEII in stainless. I have never regretted that purchase.

It shoots more accurately than I can shoot. (So if I miss, it was me, not the gun.)

Every single person that shoots it, gets a tighter group than they did with their gun.[smilie=b:

I have not had any maintenance problems. You will have to clean it more than a Glock.

Sigs are great and if you didn't mind the Glock, they are VERY reliable.

Be patient. Hold a LOT of guns. Save up, and get what you want. Most likely you will be able to give it to your grandchildren someday.

BNE

[Bullshop Junior]

I used to practice a lot with the 1911 i used to have. I dont carry a round in the chamber, ever, for any reason. Even my six guns were carried with hammer on a empty chamber. Ive seen guns go off and a good friend of mine almost lost his leg from it.

As for practice, its been about a year since my 1911 was stolen. I shot thousands of rounds through it. I got to were i could throw a crushed pop can in the air with my right hand, draw with my left, rack the slide and hit the popcan midair 7 out of 10. What ever it is i choose, will be shot a lot, at least 3-4 boxes a week. I loved my 1911. Only reason i was looking at other guns was because i like to try new things.

[Bullshop Junior]

Ruger is one of the nicest made and fitted of the $700-800 range of pistols, I have tuned up one and
looked over the guts in detail. NICE GUN, way worth it and has none of the silly firing pin locking
krap that Colt, Kimber, SA and many others insist on adding to complicate the trigger mechanism
unnecessarily. Kimber Classic Custom II is very good, altho it has the firing pin block baloney. It
will be a very good gun for you, I have had one of the previous Custom Classics for 14 years and many
10s of thousands of rounds - great example of the breed.

If you can afford to treat yourself - move up to a Dan Wesson 1911, but you will pay about $1000
used to $1200-1500 new. For this you get a pistol every bit equal of the $2500-3500 class of semi
custom 1911s.

Bill

A friend of mine has the limited ruger 1911. It is a dang nice pistol, and honestly what i would like to end up with. Where i live though, i have a limited selection.

[robertbank]

[QUOTE=W.R.Buchanan;2497139]
The simplicity of the Glock platform is second to none. You can do three things with a Glock, insert mag, rack slide, pull trigger.
Randy[/QUOTE

This morsel of truth also applies to:

1911
CZ
SIG
Beretta
M&P etc I would say revolver but all you have to do to it is pull the trigger

and this is just nonsense:

"All other types have more stuff to do and that stuff can slow you down when you least need to be slowed down."

And this is worse:

"As far as learning to shoot a defensive pistol well, the Glock is the premier platform for this purpose and after you learn to shoot it you can more easily branch out to other platforms and be able to master them faster since you already have all the basics down. Basics that are much harder to learn on a more complicated gun."

and these aren't much better:

"However people seldom want to branch out after becoming that familiar with the Glock platform."

"One of he biggest problems I see in people just learning to shoot a handgun is trying to learn with an overly complicated gun. Trying to learn how with a De-cocker is a virtual waste of time. Been there done that. The manual of arms is just to complicated, and rather than developing good basic skills all you do is fight with the gun."

What, you had trouble pushing down a lever. How do you manage pulling a trigger.

"Also, and this may offend some, if you haven't shot a pistol in a serious training environment, you may "think" you know how to shoot said pistol."

Yuppers all those Olympic bullseye shooters have no clue. How are the training schools handle shooting US Steel Competitions, IPSC or IDPA.

Take Care

Bob

[gandydancer]

I have had glocks. and they are a great pistol. I prefer a 1911.

[gandydancer]

Too bad you don't like Glocks My G21 SF is one of, if not the, best auto pistol I have ever shot.

AS far as reliability goes I doubt anything that is made by a reputable company is NOT going to be reliable.

The simplicity of the Glock platform is second to none. You can do three things with a Glock, insert mag, rack slide, pull trigger. All other types have more stuff to do and that stuff can slow you down when you least need to be slowed down.

As far as learning to shoot a defensive pistol well, the Glock is the premier platform for this purpose and after you learn to shoot it you can more easily branch out to other platforms and be able to master them faster since you already have all the basics down. Basics that are much harder to learn on a more complicated gun.

However people seldom want to branch out after becoming that familiar with the Glock platform.

One of he biggest problems I see in people just learning to shoot a handgun is trying to learn with an overly complicated gun. Trying to learn how with a De-cocker is a virtual waste of time. Been there done that. The manual of arms is just to complicated, and rather than developing good basic skills all you do is fight with the gun.

Also, and this may offend some, if you haven't shot a pistol in a serious training environment, you may "think" you know how to shoot said pistol.

I am here to tell you that you don't. And I will use myself as a example.

My first class at Front Sight was taken with my CZ 40 P a .40 S&W Decocker and a nice gun. Since I was a seasoned pistol shooter with years of plinking and time at the local pistol range shooting at Bullseye targets, (not for scores, just shooting at them) I was pretty sure I would be taught exactly nothing in this class and in fact would be teaching said class before the end of the first day.

I managed to finish 39th out of 40 in the class and the one person I beat was the woman I was coaching who had never fired any gun in her life!

After 12 more 4 day classes I have some idea of what I am doing now. And more properly I can tell if someone else knows what he is doing or not.

What ever you decide on and it sounds like it is going to be a 1911 of one brand or another I highly recommend that you attend a reputable shooting school, and learn the proper way to operate the gun and shoot it.

You will achieve far more with ANY platform thru intensive training and drilling than you will get in ten years of plinking and shooting at targets at the local range.

Thinking you know, is not the same as actually knowing.

You will soon find out that it more about you, than which gun you chose.

My .02



Randy

The nail on the head about training.:drinks:

[wool1]

I have to admit, I started skimming the responses about the second page....not because of anyone's answer or opinions,but having someone helping to pick a handgun that you will love, is like having your friend buy you the underwear they like. Nothing inappropriate in the comparison except, their taste and comort will be different than yours. I have students in every class shooting a wide variety of handguns with and with out problems with same model, different shooters. Narrow down the list to.....say 4 guns. You choose, S&W M&P, 1911 Para, Taurus , Glock (gen4) and give them an honest run of 25-50 rds each. Truly put 100% in each shot....stance! sight alignment, sight picture! squeeze ???front sight,,,,,squeeze. The pistol will not lie to you. Good ammo, good aiming, good trigger control.....it will shoot its and your best. One will come out on top.....you will know. Pm me if I can help.im not a grand master pooba, but I will give they knowledge I have.

Wes

[Bullshop Junior]

[QUOTE=W.R.Buchanan;2497139]
The simplicity of the Glock platform is second to none. You can do three things with a Glock, insert mag, rack slide, pull trigger.
Randy[/QUOTE

This morsel of truth also applies to:

1911
CZ
SIG
Beretta
M&P etc I would say revolver but all you have to do to it is pull the trigger

and this is just nonsense:

"All other types have more stuff to do and that stuff can slow you down when you least need to be slowed down."

And this is worse:

"As far as learning to shoot a defensive pistol well, the Glock is the premier platform for this purpose and after you learn to shoot it you can more easily branch out to other platforms and be able to master them faster since you already have all the basics down. Basics that are much harder to learn on a more complicated gun."

and these aren't much better:

"However people seldom want to branch out after becoming that familiar with the Glock platform."

"One of he biggest problems I see in people just learning to shoot a handgun is trying to learn with an overly complicated gun. Trying to learn how with a De-cocker is a virtual waste of time. Been there done that. The manual of arms is just to complicated, and rather than developing good basic skills all you do is fight with the gun."

What, you had trouble pushing down a lever. How do you manage pulling a trigger.

"Also, and this may offend some, if you haven't shot a pistol in a serious training environment, you may "think" you know how to shoot said pistol."

Yuppers all those Olympic bullseye shooters have no clue. How are the training schools handle shooting US Steel Competitions, IPSC or IDPA.

Take Care

Bob

This is just about my thoughts on the whole deal. I personaly just cant stand glocks, and that in its self makes them inferior.

[Bullshop Junior]

The main problem, is where i am, no one sells used guns, so test shooting isnt a option. So im limited to what the local store has, since he doesnt recieve firearms, and is the only ffl within 120 miles. And with the waiting period i csnt buy one in fairbanks, because wil my work i may not make it back up the day i clear to pick up the gun.

So that limits me a lot. Ron's may order me a new gun from his dealer if he is in a good mood, and thats why im asking opinions. If i was gonna go buy a gun off his shelf today..it would be the rock island sice he runs about $100-200 over market value and im not really willing to pay $1450 for the ruger. That is also te reason i asked about the SR45, since its the cheapest 45 in the case at $429...140 less them the rock island.

[W.R.Buchanan]

RobertBank: 1911's have a safety that you must depress before firing and re set before re-holstering. They are single action Semi Autos, as are some CZ's. Some Sigs and CZ's are SA some are DA,,, Berettas are DA de-cockers, and require that you first cock the hammer manually to even do a chamber check then de-cock so you don't shoot yourself.

Also all of these other guns have nice 9lb+ DA trigger pulls that you have to master so you don't waste your first shot. Then you get to master the SA trigger pull so you can actually hit something. All of these extra pieces in the manual of arms for that weapon contribute to the learning curve.

You can't begin to argue with that fact. More stuff takes longer to learn. PERIOD!

All of these guns have more things to do before firing than a Glock or an "M&P" which is just a another version of a Glock and made that way for exactly the same reasons as the Glock is. Simplicity of operation!

I didn't say these guns were bad guns, I said they are harder to learn on than a Glock. I also didn't say they were impossible to learn on, I said they are harder to learn on, and there is no intelligent argument against that point either.

AS far as Olympic shooters I don't think they actually draw a gun out of a holster do they?

I shoot IDPA every month and I do pretty good!

You are a "Moderator????" Really?

I really don't like it when people take individual sentences and regurgitate them in quotes (usually missing the point completely) for the purpose of chopping up a post.

My posts are my opinions backed by my considerable experience. If you disagree then say so and at least offer up some credible evidence to the contrary.

You implying that I am FOS, does not make me FOS!

Bullshop: sorry to go off on your thread. I took exception to being called an idiot.

Randy

[Bullshop Junior]

RobertBank: 1911's have a safety that you must depress before firing and re set before re-holstering. They are single action Semi Autos, as are some CZ's. Some Sigs and CZ's are SA some are DA,,, Berettas are DA de-cockers, and require that you first cock the hammer manually to even do a chamber check then de-cock so you don't shoot yourself.

Also all of these other guns have nice 9lb+ DA trigger pulls that you have to master so you don't waste your first shot. Then you get to master the SA trigger pull so you can actually hit something. All of these extra pieces in the manual of arms for that weapon contribute to the learning curve.

You can't begin to argue with that fact. More stuff takes longer to learn. PERIOD!

All of these guns have more things to do before firing than a Glock or an "M&P" which is just a another version of a Glock and made that way for exactly the same reasons as the Glock is. Simplicity of operation!

I didn't say these guns were bad guns, I said they are harder to learn on than a Glock. I also didn't say they were impossible to learn on, I said they are harder to learn on, and there is no intelligent argument against that point either.

AS far as Olympic shooters I don't think they actually draw a gun out of a holster do they?

I shoot IDPA every month and I do pretty good!

You are a "Moderator????" Really?

I really don't like it when people take individual sentences and regurgitate them in quotes (usually missing the point completely) for the purpose of chopping up a post.

My posts are my opinions backed by my considerable experience. If you disagree then say so and at least offer up some credible evidence to the contrary.

You implying that I am FOS, does not make me FOS!

Randy

I have to disagree. Any gun takes practice. Just because it is a glock does not make it magicly better. I learned to shoot a pistol on a Ruger mk2 bull barrel. When i got my 1911, i was good to go after a few magazine fulls.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Bullshop: I see you're still up?

I didn't say they were better, I said they are simpler. This is the distinction here. They are not more accurate either they are just simpler to operate. This makes better shooters quicker.

That is why more police agencies in the world use Glocks than all other pistols combined. They are easier to train with.

Good night, I have to rest my stomach for tomorrow. :mrgreen:

Randy

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I disagree that the manual safety of a 1911 takes longer or is more difficult to master for the first shot. Bullshop Junior is right when he says it just takes practice. I've seen footage of a guy with an "L" frame Smith doing the 'El Presidente drill with Safariland speedloaders faster than most competition shooter can do it with a 1911. In over 30 years of being a peace officer I've carried DA revolvers, double single semi-autos with and without manual safeties and the 1911. I've instructed on the law enforcement range since we went to these holsters that have more buttons, snaps, twist spring retention contraptions than most ejection seats and none of it makes much difference. It's just a matter of practicing with your system. And I shoot single action revolvers. I've timed myself with different guns and holsters on the firing range -that is timed myself actually hitting the target, and the system is far less significant than simply practicing and being proficient with the system you have. The 1911 safety is swept off after the draw and prior to the final sight picture. The DA trigger takes some getting used to and requires practice too.

[prs]

Bullshop: I see you're still up?

I didn't say they were better, I said they are simpler. This is the distinction here. They are not more accurate either they are just simpler to operate. This makes better shooters quicker.

That is why more police agencies in the world use Glocks than all other pistols combined. They are easier to train with.

Good night, I have to rest my stomach for tomorrow. :mrgreen:

Randy

HMMMMMMMMMM. Probably could have come up with a better supporting example. Police officers evidently have very poor hand gun skills in general, with exceptions noted. Come to think about it, the LEOs I have seen shoot well were using their own Smith & Wessons and preferred revolver.

Now for me, I appreciate my Glock 23. It has never jambed, it does not lead with boolits through the stock tube. It hits where it was pointed when it went bang. It does not pull my pants down if holstered in my watch pocket. It has all original parts after having shot many thousands of rounds over the past two decades. My SR1911s have been more finicky. One defective sight blade broke on recoil of target loads, the CMDR has trouble feeding 68 SWC boolits (working on that). The full sized is reliable. Several thousand rounds from each. I think the OP would be happy with the SR45 given his remarks and stated uses, but I havenot owned one yet.

prs

[robertbank]

U\ll reply in bold just to make the separation of our remarks easier to discern.


RobertBank: 1911's have a safety that you must depress before firing and re set before re-holstering. They are single action Semi Autos, as are some CZ's. Some Sigs and CZ's are SA some are DA,,, Berettas are DA de-cockers, and require that you first cock the hammer manually to even do a chamber check then de-cock so you don't shoot yourself.

The Glocks and mos M&P's do not have active safeties. The only thing stopping the guns from discharging unintentionally is a safety disconnect involving the trigger. Catch your shirt in the trigger area when holstering and the guns will go off. I personally know of two incidents of this happening. When drawing if you lay our trigger finger against the holster and for any reason your gun hand is subject to resistance when drawing there is a likelihood your finger will inadvertently strike the trigger when the gun clears the holster and the gun will discharge. I have witnessed this happening and know of others. This is the most likely reason why one name brand holster has been barred from some shooting competitions. Do you really believe flicking the safety off when drawing a 1911 slows you down. 10 years of shooting IDPA and IPSC has demonstrated to me this is simply not true. Are you aware the CZ Shadow and its iterations are the most used and winningest pistols in IPSC Production worldwide? The are DA/SA pistols and are no slower to draw and shoot then any other pistol including the Glock, a pistol you seem to have become fixed upon. Your comment about having to flick a safety on a 1911 or push a decocker lever down on decocker model is a Cunard of the first order. The M&P runs exactly the same way a Glock does, has better ergonomics than the Glock and uses the 1911 grip angle vs the Glocks use of the Luger angle. I would suspect for Americans who grew up on the 1911 platform the transition to the M&P would be much more comfortable and likely faster. Too, because the wider range of grip panels offered by S&W the gun is likely more attractive to those with shorter fingers. Lastly, for someone interested in accuracy out of the box neither the Glock or the M&P off a bench will shoot with a CZ. They simply are not made with the same built in mechanical accuracy and for the primary purpose they are made it likely doesn't matter.

Also all of these other guns have nice 9lb+ DA trigger pulls that you have to master so you don't waste your first shot. Then you get to master the SA trigger pull so you can actually hit something. All of these extra pieces in the manual of arms for that weapon contribute to the learning curve.

Actually you need not master either. The DA/SA guns when carried cocked and locked are in the same state of readiness as the Glock/M&P & XD striker fired guns and can if the user chooses half a nice crisp 2.5# to 3.5# trigger while the striker fired guns if they follow the teachings of the latest shooting garu are stuck at around 5#s. FYI my CZ & Tanfoglio run with 8# DA pulls and 3# SA pulls. I prefer the the M&P for the most part now in IDPA as I can drive the lighter gun faster in that sport. I generally use the CZ/Tanfoglio for IPSC- different sport different needs.

You can't begin to argue with that fact. More stuff takes longer to learn. PERIOD!

That is like saying the bigger the number the harder to add. I am surprised we haven't heard of the small vs large motor skill commentary that was prevalent a few years ago from the training school crowd. "OK folks notice your thumb naturally sits below the 1911 safety. When you draw flick the thumb up while bring the gun to target. Perfect lets move on." "When holstering push the decocker lever down. Tryit, perfect lets move on."

All of these guns have more things to do before firing than a Glock or an "M&P" which is just a another version of a Glock and made that way for exactly the same reasons as the Glock is. Simplicity of operation!

The decocker models have the same things to do so it isn't quite all. You draw the gun and fire it. The 1911 guys have been flicking off their safeties while drawing their guns for years with draw/fire times no different than your Glocks and my M&P's.

I didn't say these guns were bad guns, I said they are harder to learn on than a Glock. I also didn't say they were impossible to learn on, I said they are harder to learn on, and there is no intelligent argument against that point either.

Well I have given you a few only because most of your arguments are strawman arguments that have no basis in fact. In short in practice they just don't hold water. You haven't mentioned one of the primary things a Glock owner must lesrn and that is to dipthe gun down as he comes on target because the Glock grip angle will natgurally point the gun high. Once you get used to it the problem goes away. The grip angle of the M&P does bring the gun level in most hands. JMB did get it right with the 1911.

AS far as Olympic shooters I don't think they actually draw a gun out of a holster do they?

I shoot IDPA every month and I do pretty good!

I am sure you do the Glock is a great pistol for that sport. Between the Glock and M&P they represent approx. 90% of the guns shot in that sport. To illustrate how rules affect what is shot in competitions one only has to lool at IPSC Production vs USPSA Production. On the surface both divisions should be dominated by the same equipment. The only real differences involve two rules. IPSC does not allow the Glock 34/35 guns to shoot in their Production Division on the basis they are "competition guns" and secondly IPSC Production Division as a five pound first shot trigger pull rule. IPSC Production is dominated by CZ/Tanfoglios with 5#+ DA triggers ans 2#+ SA triggers while the striker fired guns like the Glocks ans M&P's are stuck with 5#+ triggers. USPSA does not have the minimum pull and you see more striker fired guns participating in the sport.

You are a "Moderator????" Really?

Yes and I double as an active member:)

I really don't like it when people take individual sentences and regurgitate them in quotes (usually missing the point completely) for the purpose of chopping up a post.

Express your thoughts in something other than absolute terms. To say it is difficult to flip a safety off or on insults ones intelligence. I appreciate they are talking points for the various combat training schools that seem to dominate the landscape these days but recognize what they are, just talking points designed to enhance the experience. If you happen to be an overweight, middle aged slightly narcotic male with a Glock in your holster you get to feel empowered or at the very least confirmed in your own mind the advertising you read in the local gun rag was bang on - you do have the right equipment for the job when the inevitable SHTF event occurs

My posts are my opinions backed by my considerable experience. If you disagree then say so and at least offer up some credible evidence to the contrary.

How do you argue a negative? You haven't even mentioned small motor skills and how difficult it is to hit the slide llock lever under stress when as every IPSC shooter I know has long since realized it is so much faster than the overhand method taught at some combat schools. Doesn't look as cool but it is faster

You implying that I am FOS, does not make me FOS!

Nope I am implying you drank to much Glock Cool Aid while attending your pistol classes. It s nice you did mention the <&P in your reply it takes the Glock Advert out of your initial post

Bullshop: sorry to go off on your thread. I took exception to being called an idiot.

Your words not mine I would never refer to you as an idiot. From your initial post a Couch Commando perhaps but not an idiot. To Bullshop Junior don't let this rebuttal and the now four posts distract you from the Glock. They are pretty solid self defense guns. Some find the grip not to their liking, my only issue with them, and prefer the grip and the angle of the grip the M&P. Too, S&W is an American icon with some history if that matters and to some it does. Steel guns do have their place and if accuracy beyond hitting a mans size chest at 25 yards is a desire than the 1911/CZ Platforms might be a better choice IMHO.

Take Care

Bob
ps LEO departments buy them primarily because they are inexpensive and work well enough to fulfill the mandate required of them. If your budget is not limited to what taxpayers will tolerate than why be bound to the same restrictions. The M&P's do as well in the LEO market for the same reason.

Randy

[Artful]

You want pictures of 45's? - these are a few of my favorite things...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/P1020211.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/P1020211.jpg.html)
Top converted 303 rifle to 45 acp - clock wise from there
Ruger New Convertable in 45 ACP/45 Colt
Detonic's compact 1911
Para-Ordinance 1911 Hi-cap P13
Sig 220
S&W 25 - 45 ACP or 45 Auto Rim
and that's not all of them - 45's are like potato chips - tough to stop at one

Handguns are like shoes, all may fit on/in your appendage but
you'll find one that is made like it was custom designed for you.
When you try it out it will feel natural and point when you expect it too without training yourself.
It's not a bad thing to have to learn an operations system if you are dedicated to it
- What is bad is when you have different systems with reverse directions of operations
Example - 1911 safety down to fire, S&W auto safety up to fire, etc

[9.3X62AL]

Bullshop Jr.......whatever sidearm you select, do yourself a favor as a self defender and STOP IMMEDIATELY the practice of carrying autopistols with chamber empty......and the same goes for revolvers. Firearms do not "go off" of their own accord, SOMEONE ACTIVATES A TRIGGER IDIOTICALLY. There are few systems that require carrying with empty chamber under the hammer--The Colt Single Action Army revolver is one such, since they can discharge if dropped on their hammer with a cartridge in place. Most others have passive safeties that are ONLY overcome by activating the trigger, often after dislodging active safety mechanisms. Don't let an idiot's acts influence your regimen. You are needlessly forfeiting advantages to no good end.

[Rick Hodges]

Robertbank,

You forgot one of the most important reasons LE agencies went to Glocks...bribery and blackmail. Yep, US sales reps went to jail for such practices....(interesting but not the purchasing agents). The decision maker on my department changed over to Glocks and got his personal safe filled with new handguns and even a brand new M1A1.....hmmmm and he refused to consult with any of the shooters on the department, saying they were biased and could shoot anything...only the opinion of the poor shooters and newbies counted...and of course his.
The history of Glock and the LE community is a colorful one. So was the language on the range as we transition trained....and had the magazines recalled three times....oh yeah, and spring sets and trigger parts. Glock may have worked the problems out but the "reliability" that we were sold was pure myth.

I still own a Glock 23...it is the weapon I retired with. I don't carry it or shoot it much. It is a safe queen and a memento of past times. There are much better weapons to carry and use.

Just my opinion....

[W.R.Buchanan]

RB: I only have a few comments

First; you push the safety on a 1911 down not up, to fire it.

Second; many de-cockers can not be carried cocked and locked, my CZ 40 P being the one I was trying to learn on had no external safety, if you did not de-cock before re-holstering you had a live gun in your holster. This is a negative for a beginner. Same holds true with 1911's, if you don't engage the safety before you holster you have live gun in your holster with a really nice (in most cases) 2-3 lb. trigger. Sure there's a grip safety, but if you are pushing the gun into the holster chances are you are also depressing the grip safety.

These are things that beginners do,,, alot.

As far as Glock ND's, the ones you speak of usually are caused by floppy holsters. The cop who shot himself in front of the kids being the most common example. Leather holster. You'll also note that the vast majority of LE users of all guns are using Kydex holsters of one kind or another, and some have elaborate mechanisms to retain the gun. This is largely due to earlier ND events with Glocks which are well known and "taught to prevent" in classes.

However just looking at the holster as you are putting the gun back in preempts many ND's before they start.

"Speed re-holstering" is a habit that needs to be nipped in the bud.

In my 12+ classes (48+ days) at Front Sight(pistol shooting classes, not counting Rifle classes) I have seen 4 ND's and one was right next to me.

The guy had a really nice Kimber 1911 and came up short on a type three clearing drill. He was 'Hi-pressure' type of guy and was so frustrated with himself that he jammed the gun back in the holster with the safety off and his finger on the trigger. As soon as his finger contacted the holster the gun went off and he shot himself in the lower thigh and the bullet came out the top of his calf.

He could have done the same thing with a Glock.

He was left handed and I was on his right so he didn't shoot me.

Others have been attributed to Sigs being holstered with out de-cocking. Sig Triggers are really big and they get hung up on holsters frequently.

You can say that 1911's and all these other more complicated pistols are just as easy to learn with, but you still must develop the extra "rote" skills necessary to run them. And those take more time to learn to an acceptable level than the simpler Glock or M&P which doesn't have those features.

It simply takes less time to count to Three, than it does to count to Four.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this subject, it is obvious that I am not going to convince you to my way of thinking on this subject.

And I am too deeply rooted in my Couch Commando ,,,, actually "Lazyboy Chair Commando" mentality ,,, to rethink mine.

Randy

[Wag]

Sig P220. I'm a huge fan!

--Wag--

[robertbank]

Randy live in peace. Even I, the mechanical slug that I am can push a decocker down. Once decocked the gun is in the same condition of readiness as your Glock and my M&P is.

Bullshop read what Al said and learn he knows of what he speaks. Carrying a gun with an empty chamber will get you killed if, God forbid you ever did need to use it to defend yourself and in your part of the word it could likely be on four legs. Too, guns are dangerous and any number of events can take place to cause an AD so treat them with respect. About the time you develop the, "It can't happen to me attitude"....it will and I speak from personal experience.

What happened to me was I had developed a habit of laying my finger along the side of my holster when drawing my pistol. It was safe enough and I have always practiced my draw wit the view of NEVER putting the finger on the trigger until you intend to fire the gun. We all know that...right. Well, one day at a local IDPA match I drew my M&P. As luck would have it I was wearing a pull over that day and as I drew my gun the thumb are of my hand caught the pullover and caused a slight tug which, as I found out later caused my hand to tighten. At this point no problem BUT as the gun came out of the holster my finger which was now pressing slightly on the holster slipped into the trigger guard and fired the pistol. I was lucky, aside from a bruised ego and three holes in my pants I was unhurt. That night, using and empty gun I tries to replicate the event to no avail. Then quite by accident I did press my finger against the holster and bingo as the gun cleared the holster the finger pressed into the holster and the striker dropped.

You can try this at home or at your desk now as you read this post. Place your trigger finger on a flat surface and press down. Draw the finger to the edge of the surface then pull it off. Note how the finger moved downward. Well if you happen to have an M&P or Glock in your hand as this happens your gun will go boom. This whole experience leads me to think why the Serpa Holster had so many AD's and was eventually modified and remains banned off of some ranges. Experienced or not when doing the draw under pressure keep your finger off your holster. I have trained myself to actually point my finger outward at 45 degrees.

As an aside I know of at least one AD over in Alberta at an IPSC match where a Glock discharged in the holster due to I suspect the same way. We had an AD in the Lower Mainland of BC with a Glock where the guys shirt got caught in the trigger guard.

Take Care

Bob

[Love Life]

There is no such thing as an AD. There is a mechanical failure of the firearm that can cause it to fire, but that is not an AD (accidental discharge).

There is a such thing as a ND (NEGLIGENT discharge). Keep those in mind.

When you draw the gun, keep your booger hook straight and high along the slide. Works like a charm. Carrying a firearm on an empty chamber (minus Colt SAA and real clones) is about as useful as carrying a really short club with limited leverage.

Regardless of what firearm you choose to buy, you know that practice is necessary. I'd pick a 1911 over the SR45.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Bob: My whole take on the ND portion of shooting is that If you have never had one, you just haven't shot the gun enough.

It has happened to me more than once with pistols, rifles, and shotguns. It has always happened when my trigger finger goes in the trigger guard at the wrong time, and usually under some kind of time pressure or heated moment.

The more you shoot the more likely you are to have a brainfart and hopefully you don't get hurt doing it.

Most of pistol shooting is done with Rote functions. Functions that are strictly muscle memory. The presentation, sight alignment and trigger control are the things we try to keep sharp, and as you well know they go away when not used daily,,, and the older we get the faster they go away.

The only way to keep these things inline is to practice, practice, and then practice some more.

I go to Front Sight usually twice a year and either do a Pistol course or a Rifle course. I have passed these courses many times but the drilled practice is what I'm after. When you shoot 800 rounds over 4 days you pretty much iron out any bad habits you may have developed.

Have a good Turkey Day.

Randy

[Love Life]

Bob: My whole take on the ND portion of shooting is that If you have never had one, you just haven't shot the gun enough.



I find this to be hard to take. It's not that he hasn't shot enough, it's that he hasn't gone lax on his safety regardless of how tired, bored, or comfortable he was.

It's akin to people saying that "if you haven't had a squib, you will at some point." Yeah, if you screw up by getting lazy. ND's are unacceptable and no amount of reasoning will ever cause me to look at them as a thing that "will" happen.

[Bullshop Junior]

I find this to be hard to take. It's not that he hasn't shot enough, it's that he hasn't gone lax on his safety regardless of how tired, bored, or comfortable he was.

It's akin to people saying that "if you haven't had a squib, you will at some point." Yeah, if you screw up by getting lazy. ND's are unacceptable and no amount of reasoning will ever cause me to look at them as a thing that "will" happen.

I was gonna say the same thing, but randy seems to be one of those guys that is always right, and no one else should have a opinion, since his is correct.

Personaly, i had one NB in a 45 carbine identical to the one in the photo a few post up (i really miss that gun). I was carrying it with one in the chamber, hammer down, and a twig caught on the hammer, pulled it back half way, but not enough for it to catch the saftey nock, and kaboom, it went off 2" away from my ear. Since that day, i will not carry a gun loaded, for any reason. My dad shot himself in the **** with a 22 pistol, and as i said a few post back a friend of mine almost took his leg off with a 44mag dessert eagle. His was in the holster, under his coat and he was walking down the road and it went bang.

[Love Life]

Now, Mr. Buchanan is a very experienced person who brings a ton of knowledge on many subjects to the table. I would not ignore all of his words. This is just a difference of opinion between ND and AD.

[robertbank]

Love Lifee the mantra you teach sounds good and is sung by many but unfortunately it is as hollow as an old log. Argue the ND/AD to the cows come home. What your debate leads to is an easy explanation for every that is bad that occurs. Had I accepted your mantra I would not have looked further. I was lazy, I was tired, I was....none of which would have led me to investigate why it happened. None of the previous conclusions would have been true. Just like the AD/ND or unexpected discharges involving the old Serpa design. It was an accident waiting to happen and in my view remains so.

Someone is going to read my post and rehearse his draw and say to himself if it happened to him it could happen to me and change his method.

Believe what you will and repeat your mantra to all who will listen. Unfortunately, it really does not address what can happen. We are humans not robots. We play with dangerous mechanical devices and sometimes things happen that are not or should not happen but they do.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

Sorry didn't even notice it. Amended. You have a very short fuse. Do what you want with your conclusion.

I don't recall suggesting it was anyone but me. My point is simple saying there is no such thing as an AD is just a sign you have no recently referred to a dictionary. Look up what the word means then come back and comment. Your comment aabout "what more is there to look into" is just silly. Why do you think we have coroners or investigations when bad things happen. It is to try to ensure it won't happen again. No doubt you would say the same thing to someone who had an AD in a Serpa holster. Shooter error would be your conclusion. The holster worked as it should. The fact it placed the shooter's finger into he trigger guard area would in your world not matter. Why? Because anyone knows to keep their "bugger finger off the boomstick......".

Never mind.


Take Care

Bob Bonenfant

[Love Life]

My apologies. I thought you were deliberately insulting me. I have deleted the offensive post.

[btroj]

Seems to me it comes down to ones definition of "accidental".

If you see it as something unforeseen I can see that as appropriate.

If you see it as being without apparent cause then I have a problem.

I prefer to think of it as negligence, it occurred due to a failure to act.

Either way, feces occurs. Learn your firearm, learn it well. Always realize that no safety can prevent stupidity.

Bullshop JR, I would get a 1911 of some sort. You are familiar with them and that is a plus. I like mine, it fits my needs. That is what matters most- what fits YOUR needs and budget.

[waksupi]

The only accidental discharges I ever had could be directly attributed to the dumb *** holding the firearm at the time.

[9.3X62AL]

There are cardinal rules of firearms safety that are meant to overlap and supplement one another. The two most prominent rules are to 1) always keep the arm pointed in a safe direction and 2) do not touch the trigger until on target and prepared to fire.

Many of the activities we engage in as a part of modern life involve risk and hazard. Driving a vehicle is far more hazardous than is operating a firearm, by several orders of magnitude--but we drive our cars pretty routinely and regularly. Situational awareness and remaining mindful of our activity is key to staying safe with any actions involving elevated risk.

[Bullshop Junior]

I forgot another thing...i shoot and carry left handed....so with the 1911 cocked and locked, the saftey is on the out side of the holster. Since i spend more time in the woods then anywhere else, thats no good. Even though there is still the grip saftey, and the trigger it still makes me uncomfortable

[btroj]

Ah, you are backwards.

That changes everything. Does anyone make a lefty 1911?

[Lead Fred]

BJ,

Ive been shooting 1911 since the 60s, after shooting, then buying the P220, I will never own a 1911.
I dont like, nor have any use for handguns. After shooting the P220, I bought it.
Still have no use for it, but its there just in case

Just loaded up some plain base 230s, and it shoots them just like J words
I do not intend to ever buy a store bought round

[kbstenberg]

btroj The reason that so many people shoot right handed is that they haven't achieved a superior level of shooting proficiency. When a person gets to that level they are allowed to shoot left handed!!:kidding:

[robertbank]

Daniel you can get ambi safeties for the 1911. Living just south of you I know something of the four footed threats you can encounter, often in situations where a long gun just won't do. The 1911 holstered cocked and locked is much more secure than say any of the three striker fired guns due, as you recognize, the designs three levels of (Grip, thumb safety, FPB). I carry mine in the bush either on the belt or in a shoulder holster. I load mine with 45-08 Cartridges which drive a 200 gr lead bullet 1350 fps. While not as effective as my 12 gauge with slugs it beats a stick when my shotgun is by my pack 50 yards away. I stream fish a lot and play gold panner occasionally.

Weight is always an issue with me but it is offset by the number of GD black and brown bears we have up here. The 1911 is my preferred carry piece and along with the 4.2 S&W M 29 in .44mag. The latter might be even a lessor concern for you given the history you have related. Six rounds will be more than enough to solve any problem you encounter. If they aren't it won't matter much to you. Anything heavier than the M 29 is going to be to heavy and awkward I suspect for your requirements.

Take Care

Bob

[MTtimberline]

The 1911, of course, but I've really been interested in the sig P227. I think it came out this year and is pretty much a p226 in .45acp with 10+1 rd double stack capacity and e2 grips. There are 14rd extended mags available too. And, it's a Sig!

88958

[45 2.1]

The only accidental discharges I ever had could be directly attributed to the dumb *** holding the firearm at the time.

Now ain't that just the truth!....... at that's from watching a few people shoot themselves at matches and gun shows..... idiots, one and all of them.


I forgot another thing...i shoot and carry left handed....so with the 1911 cocked and locked, the saftey is on the out side of the holster. Since i spend more time in the woods then anywhere else, thats no good. Even though there is still the grip safety, and the trigger it still makes me uncomfortable

You asked what one...... Get yourself a: Colt 1911 (the real deal) and put a left-handed safety on it (well within most anyone's capabilities); Sig (great handguns); or look for an old Ruger P90 on the net, a very strong good shooting 45 (very underrated also).

[BruceB]

Generally. I find myself in agreement with Robert Bank.... and this time is no exception.

For my last eight years of living in the wilds of the Northwest Territories, I carried the S&W 4" .44 Mountain Revolver that my wife and daughter gave me for Christmas of '89.

Before that, a 7.5" Ruger .44 SBH was my carry gun in the bush. The Smith was much easier to haul around, given its shorter length. The Ruger was still a great comfort, however!

The heavy-load .45 that Bob describes is interesting... compactness is always desirable, as long as we don't compromise the effectiveness of the package. I have toted a .45 ACP in the bush on occasion, but that was usually in the hibernation months for our furry neighbors.

Incidentally, I too am a left-hander, and the ambi safeties have never given me trouble. many holsters actually cover the safety, preventing its being accidentally moved to the "off" position. Carrying the gun under a coat also will prevent this movement.

(NO gun is "safe" in the hands of fools and neophytes!)

[ole 5 hole group]

I'll just state my opinion on AD vs ND. In years gone by there were only AD's, as no one that I knew of or ever heard of intentionally started the shooting day expecting to fire their firearm unintentionally. With today's thinking it's called a ND, so be it.

Now, I'll side with Randy in this, if you've never had an AD, you're probably just lucky and that includes not having a whole lot of trigger time under your belt. For those that think 5K to 10K rounds a year for 10 to 15 years is heavy volume shooting - yes for some it surely is but for some others, it's maybe a months worth of shooting.

Like Randy I've had a couple AD's with pistol, rifle and shotgun. Haven't had one in the last 25 or so years but when I experienced them, I knew my mistake immediately and since I have religiously maintained safe muzzle control since age 7, I caused no damage to persons or things - just embarrassed myself a time or two. Call them brainfarts, laxness, inattention to detail whatever - All I know is whenever I get to know an ole time competitive shooter, who was a high volume shooter during his day and also is/was an avid hunter and plinker over the decades they have all admitted to an AD or two, three etc for one reason or another.

The last AD I witnessed was about 10 years ago when a friend of mine leaned over the hood of my pickup to take a prairie dog at a distance but before he could figure out the wind conditions for the long shot the dog went down. As he brought the rifle up from the front bag he cupped his palm around the trigger guard of his rifle having a 1.5 ounce jewel trigger - well, a portion of his hand touched the side of the trigger while bringing the rifle down and put a hole in my hood and several pieces of shrapnel pierced my radiator and front left headlight. Ya, he knew he should have lifted the bolt and has lifted that bolt a 1K times in the past under similar conditions but on this day he didn't, and a AD occurred. Our only concern for the next 2 hours was repairing the radiator, as we had another 3 days of shooting left.:)

Just be as safe as you can be out there and enjoy the world of firearms and don't be too quick to condemn someone for an AD, as they do happen and occasionally they will happen to someone who has a whole lot of experience in the shooting world and practices gun safety to the max. As they say: Build bridges for 50 years and does everyone call you a bridge builder? No, but suck one **** and everyone will call you a **** ****** for life.:mrgreen:

[btroj]

Is a brain fart really an accident? I call it negligence.

I had an ND due to a high primer in my 1911. My fault. Not an accident, it was negligence in verifying that the primers were properly seated.

It all comes down to how you define accident.

[robertbank]

Is a brain fart really an accident? I call it negligence.

I had an ND due to a high primer in my 1911. My fault. Not an accident, it was negligence in verifying that the primers were properly seated.

It all comes down to how you define accident.

Well since it happened to me I can tell you it was not a brain fart, nor was it negligence on my part. Anyone who thinks it is is stupid. The line forms on the left.

Whether you agree with this or not some guns expose the the shooter to more risk then others. If you don't shoot or have never shot a striker fired gun in competition with their so called passive safeties you have no idea what is involved. I certainly have and was more than aware of the risk the M&P/Glock style pistols expose the shooter to. As an IDPA Safety Officer one of the first hings I watch for when a shooter comes to the line is his shirt. If it is not tucked in and he is carrying a striker fired pistol my first words to him after our introduction is to tuck in his shirt. Why, because I am aware of the number of AD/ND that have occurred when shooters have either drawn or holstered the guns caused by the short entering the trigger guard and catching on the trigger. Not all shooters are aware of the danger or have the mistaken belief, as some have posted here, that either they know they practice safe gun handling or they know it will never happen to them - I assume they believe or rely on divine interference.

What I had not realized until my inappropriate discharge was the involuntary action your digits do when they are pressed against an object. Call me crazy but it just had never occurred to me. Maybe some of you knew this all along...I didn't and I have been shooting for over 50 years. In fact I doubt Randy has ever heard an instructor warn their students about this. They no doubt rely on the "keep your finger off...." line. Well that is nice to know but Glocks and M&P's don't have active safeties and had I realized as I now do that any pressure applied on the side of your holster can result in the finger reacting voluntarily as mine did and will cause the gun to go off. Learn from my experience, warn other shooters as part of your instruction that it can happen or debate the AD/ND action and tell your students never to place their finger on the trigger until they intend to shoot. I care because I shoot competitively and I want my fellow shooters to be aware of the potential for doing themselves harm. Do as you please.

Take Care

Bob
ps You would be surprised how many of my fellow shooters are not aware of the need to keep their shirt tucked in and the potential that exists for the gun discharging when the shirt catches their trigger when holstering. It happens with these guns more than most realize. Fewer still appreciate the need to keep your trigger finger off your holster when doing the draw with these types of holsters. Incidentally having the finger lie along the forward portion of the holster is not the answer either.

[9.3X62AL]

Bullshop The Younger--

The SIG-Sauer pistols show considerable "right-handed bias", as do the 1911A1-series, but this was never a real disadvantage to leftie shooters. The regimen we taught at my agency (cheerfully stolen from the FBI Handgun lesson plan) was to use the shooting hand's trigger finger to run the pistol controls as opposed to the shooting hand's thumb. The safety lever on the 1911 CAN be more easily switched when an extended paddle of some sort is added to the lever meant to control that mechanism. Mr. Browning knew what he was doing, despite gun gamer insistence to the contrary. I agree that a "mirror image" 1911A1 or SIG P-220 would be a real boon to the 10% of the population that operates from port side, but so far such examples aren't in the cards.

Now, the Colt cap-and-ball revolvers and the Single Action Army that was derived from them DO favor left-handed shooters--Sam Colt was left-handed, his design reflects that bias, and this design is less bass-ackwards to portsiders than they are to right-handers.

[BD]

I believe that the proper way to carry a 1911 for self defense is cocked and locked with a round in the chamber, ready to go. I've been doing it for years. My leather holsters have a small tear drop bit of leather glued and sewn in place to insure that the safety stays put while the pistol is holstered. A trick I think I learned from Vern Humphrey years ago. In fact that bit of leather will push the safety up upon holstering when everything is fairly new. Not so much once things are worn and soft. I have no idea why the plastic fantastic holster makers don't mold this into their products.
Having said all that, there is one drawback to carrying a 1911 for self defense in the frozen north. That is the size of the trigger guard. Unless you have pretty small hands/fingers, there's not a lot of room for gloves in the trigger guard of most 1911s. Far safer than a Glock in that situation due to the thumb safety, but still not ideal. For that reason I transition to a revolver when I'm going to be outdoors a lot in the winter. More room for gloves + a longer trigger pull = safer winter handgun. If you live in a real winter climate, you really should take the time to try out your carry setup while wearing everything you'd normally be wearing. I know it was a real eye opener for me.
BD

[robertbank]

Al a lot of shooters, including me and I am right handed, switch our M&P mag release to our strong side and use our trigger finger to activate the mag release. For me it is faster than trying to activate the button with either thumb. The gun shifts less in the hand for me anyways. If I think he wants a gun for primarily bear protection he won't have to worry about doing any reloads. What he starts with he likely will finish with ....or not. This would be the case where I wonder and the country is about the same.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

If bear protection with a handgun was on my plate, there are few better platforms than a Glock 20. 10mm caliber, 15+1 round capability, and relatively light for its size. These same traits suggest the caliber and platform for social engineering venues, too. 10mm caliber is the one I miss most as an allowed carry caliber since my agency tightened up their regs in response to real or imagined Federal Things That Go BUMP In The Night a la HR 218.

[Bullwolf]

Ah, you are backwards.

That changes everything. Does anyone make a lefty 1911?

Randall Firearms made a completely backwards left handed 1911. I read that along with all the left handed controls, the mag, and barrel twist is a even backwards on the Randall.



LEFT-HANDED RANDALL PISTOLS

Randall shocked the firearms industry during the week of May 17, 1984 when it introduced the first of 10 left-handed models.

These pistols were entire mirror-images of their right-handed counterparts, including the reversal of twist in the rifling from the left-to-right in the right-handed guns to right-to-left in the left-handed guns.

What the Randall Company did was to make the entire breadth of its line available to southpaws in left-hand configuration.

All left-handed Randall's are considered to be extremely desirable and highly collectible, due to the fact that only 7.4% of total production was in the form of left-handed guns.

In order to make this truly left-handed handgun, it was necessary to re-tool for 17 major parts changes.

This even meant that special left-handed magazines needed to be produced.

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/3751/559sized.jpg


http://i14.servimg.com/u/f14/12/64/46/27/pix47010.jpg

http://i14.servimg.com/u/f14/12/64/46/27/pix46910.jpg

A few other companies have made a true left handed 1911, and not just slapped an ambidextrous safety on the gun. Safari Arms even made a left handed 1911 Renegade.

Sadly a true left handed 1911 is likely to cost a small fortune, making it likely to be out of Bullshop Junior's price range. There is a Randall currently up on GB for only $2,795.00 - Buy Now!

Suddenly that ambi safety is starting to look a lot better.


- Bullwolf

[Bullshop Junior]

Randall Firearms made a completely backwards left handed 1911. I read that along with all the left handed controls, the mag, and barrel twist is a even backwards on the Randall.



http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/3751/559sized.jpg


http://i14.servimg.com/u/f14/12/64/46/27/pix47010.jpg

http://i14.servimg.com/u/f14/12/64/46/27/pix46910.jpg

A few other companies have made a true left handed 1911, and not just slapped an ambidextrous safety on the gun. Safari Arms even made a left handed 1911 Renegade.

Sadly a true left handed 1911 is likely to cost a small fortune, making it likely to be out of Bullshop Junior's price range. There is a Randall currently up on GB for only $2,795.00 - Buy Now!

Suddenly that ambi safety is starting to look a lot better.


- Bullwolf

I wonder if it ejects to the left....


Edit - nevermind. I looked at the photos since they finally loaded. Looks strange but nice

[BruceB]

Speaking as a lefty with about 48 years of living intimately with a number of 1911-type pistols, they are really not at all bad for southpaws.

The mag catch and slide release are EASILY operated by the left fore-finger....perhaps even easier than they are with the RIGHT thumb. The only mechanical concession that I've had to make is installation of the ambi safety, and frankly, I've carried 1911s without that ambi provision without much worry.

This is because my hands are large enough to make a Condition Two carry practical (hammer down on the loaded chamber). Thumb-cocking the gun , at least for ME, is not a problem. The largest safety problem with Condition Two, as far as I'm concerned, is the lowering of the hammer to the uncocked position.... I treat this as if I'm handling an irate rattlesnake.

Even in the cold of the Arctic, I had no difficulty... the pistol was carried crossdraw inside my parka, and a second or two was enough to drop my mitten and 'haul iron' Hah! Y'all thought "mitten strings" were for kids, right? They are actually widely used by adults in those high latitudes.

Also, body warmth kept the pistol at a comfortable operating temperature even in extreme cold.

Having said all this, the ambidextrous safety is still the best idea.... it's just that a lefty equipped with a purely right-handed 1911 is FAR from helpless or unarmed!

Carrying the gun with the hammer at HALF-cock is very unsafe. That half-cock position is designed solely to catch the hammer if it slips from under one's thumb while decocking or otherwise manipulating the hammer. The gun can fire if the hammer should slip, or if the gun is dropped on the hammer while half-cocked.

NICE pistols! I wouldn't trade a good 1911 for a bushel of new plastic-fantastics, but that's just me. Many people whose opinions I deeply respect think the world of their latter-day designs... more power to them!

[waksupi]

I'm with BruceB. Just say "no" to dishwasher safe pistols.

[robertbank]

Junior Joe Dlask out of Vancouver may still make left handed 1911's. Joe is one of the best 1911 plumbers in the business and makes an outstanding 1911. His reputation is primarily known in Canada and Europe. You might want to contact him to see if he still does make the left handed model. You likely are looking at a $1,500 bill for one of his guns. For waht you want I agree with others the ambi safety arrangement has a financial appeal.

Take Care

Bob

[bigboredad]

A bonus in my mind to going with the 1911 is you can have a .400 Corbin is just a barrel change away and the .460 Rowland is also a easy but not the cheapest conversion that can give you .44 mag ballistics from a manageable sized 1911. But that is just my this thinking

[W.R.Buchanan]

Serpa Holsters are banned at Front Sight for the reasons given above. The latch on the thing puts your finger directly on top of the trigger as you draw.

I use Blade-Tech holsters and when I draw the gun my finger is on the frame above the trigger. It usually ends up right atop the slide latch which is my "home base" so to speak. On a 1911 that is on top of the slide release pin on the right side of the gun..

Re-holstering the gun after a drill is done slowly and deliberately. This is where a lot of ND's occur. Improper clothing is not allowed, and they pretty much know what is improper. They train a lot of LE guys and they show up with retention holsters, some are allowed and some aren't. This is based on past experience, and they have plenty.

I think a lot of people have conflicting views on the ND. ******* aside,,, like I said, it usually involves either shooting a lot, and all of a sudden your finger does something it shouldn't have, or your finger is not trained enough to do what it is supposed to do when it should.

You can call it anything you want but at the end of the day you shouldn't have done it.

But you did, and as long as nobody got hurt, you better figure out what you did and fix it! Most groups have low tolerance for repeated offenses of this nature.

Mine was about a year ago while loading my G35 for a stage at a local IDPA event. I inserted the magazine, racked the slide and did chamber check. The slide didn't go back into battery all the way and so I bumped the rear of the slide with my off hand. I had put my finger onto the trigger (this was the actual brain fart ) just before I bumped the slide and as soon as I hit the slide the gun fired into the ground right in front of me.

You can call it anything that you want but it was a Negligent Discharge caused by an improper "Rote Function." I drilled this for a week afterwards to make sure I didn't repeat. Let me tell you the embarrassment of doing such a thing in front of a bunch of people is pretty humbling. Like I said nobody was hurt, and we all learned a lesson. My face almost exploded from it.

I simply thought I was clearing the pistol and was doing the hammer drop before re-holstering. I know it sounds down right stupid but that's what I was thinking at the time. IE: my "Rote Functions" got crossed in the excitement leading up to the stage. I make no excuses, I f*&^ed up!

This was my first real ND in my life and I was 63 at the time. I have had a few others but they were all simply breaking a shot before I was on a target like shooting skeet or trap. Nobody knew that I had not intended to fire when I did ,,,, Except me ! Enough for a pause in the action to get my head back in the game, and No harm, No foul.

For those who don't understand Rote functions they are actions performed by muscle memory usually without any fore thought. They are automatic.You would say,,, "well you should have been "thinking!" I'm here to tell you that you don't have time to think all the time. You can't think your way thru a gun fight, you revert to your lowest level of training. If you are a 90% shooter on your best day, under life threatening conditions you revert to about 45%, which is still in the game. If you are a 50% shooter then you revert to about 25% and you suck and better run. I have experienced this first hand in a simulated event, and I failed miserably. I always "thought" that I could think my way thru any such situation. This is when I learned that I could not! This is why you train.

The entire presentation has to be done with Rote moves or else it would be so slow you'd never get a shot off. Taking 2 seconds to draw your gun puts you so far behind the curve, all you should be thinking about is where you are going to run to, to avoid being shot.

The 5 point draw is condensed down to 1,3, and 5 when you start to get fast and the gun is actually pointed at the target and the slack out of the trigger by about .8 seconds from the surrender position. When I'm on, my first shot is broke about 1.1 and the second one at about 1.3-5. The pro guys shooting Steel Challenge are breaking their first shot at about .6-.7 sec. and are done with 5 shots in 1.5-2 seconds.

I can't even pull the trigger 5 times in 2 seconds, let alone hit anything, and if I did it, would be strictly blind luck. Or,,, are all of those shots really nothing more than Negligent Discharges?

There is almost no thinking involved here. This is all reflex, and the only thinking is when you decide to break the shot, and even it is a fleeting thing, a momentary blip in time where you say go. In a competition or if it was a real shooting scenario, You would have already made the decision to shoot and all you are waiting for is for the sights to come to bare and then send the impulse to your finger. Not a whole lot of thinking here.

If you miss, was it a Negligent Discharge. Your sights weren't on the target when you pulled the trigger. Isn't that a violation of NRA Safety Rule #2? Never put your finger on the trigger until your gun is on target.

Lots of way to look at this issue.

Randy

You'll also note that this thread has generated 6 pages of discussion in 3 days. Isn't this what we are supposed to do here? Share ideas?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

...
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnVT/Guns/Ruger%20Alaskan/Inyourace.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/ShawnVT/media/Guns/Ruger%20Alaskan/Inyourface.jpg.html)

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

.....

[Silver Jack Hammer]

"Don't ever settle on a gun that is not what you really want ... You will be sorry later on!"

This comment needs to be engraved in stone on the heading of the forum.

[Baja_Traveler]

While I like my P220 just fine (It's my carry gun)
89166
I much prefer to shoot my 1911 - just something fun about it that is hard to explain, kind of like shooting a Garand...
89167

[alg3205]

Go with the Series 70 Colt 1911. A Gold Cup is a fine pistol and will do everything that you request. The current Springfield, Ruger, Sig and Remington 1911s are good guns, biggest issue is going to be whether you want adjustable sights and the type of bullet. A little tuning and the 1911 will digest everything that you can feed it, cast or jacketed. You may want to change the recoil spring to shot the lighter loads. That being said the Springfield XD45 that I own works great and keeps up with standard grade 1911 just fine.

[Bullshop Junior]

Bullshop Junior,

A few thoughts ...

Since you have owned a 1911 in the past, you should have a good idea how they run ... A proper holster should prevent it from going off before you give it permission.

I wasn't aware that AK made you wait ... I would think that once you obtained permission to buy ... That you would have a few days to complete the purchase ... Call the store and ask them what their policy is.

Don't ever settle on a gun that is not what you really want ... You will be sorry later on!

240 mile round trip is not bad to me, if I get what I want!

Call around and find a place that rents what you want to "try before you buy" ... Then make a day of driving and shooting! Take notes too!

Guns don't just go bang for no reason ... I'm curious on the occurrences you mentioned ... Do you (or anybody) know what caused it? Was it stupid human error?(touched trigger when they shouldn't?) A setup error? (wrong style holster, clothing interference? No holster?) or wear and tear (All guns wear, at some point they need replacement parts.)

Ammo doesn't just "go off" ... Or we would see millions of rounds going off in storage, just because it happens to be sitting in a chamber, does not make the round more likely to go off, it needs to have a firing pin hit the primer.

A gun in good working order will only go bang when all the safeties have been removed, and the trigger is pulled.

One thing that seems to be a big problem is muzzle control ... One reason I do not like shoulder holster that hold the gun horizontal!

I believe the reason the desert eagal went off was due to trigger and saftey ware. The rest were human error

[williamwaco]

I vote for 1911 ( your choice of brand ) or Sig 220.

If you don't already have a strong preference for the 1911, get the 220.

[Shiloh]

Colt Gold Cup.
My wishlist gun went from a Kimber to something made of steel.

Shiloh

[Bullshop Junior]

Kimbers are plastic..?

[bigboredad]

No not plastic just a lit of models that use alloy frames

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Kimbers are cast, Colts are forged. The Kimbers and Rugers have wide knurling on the slides, the Colt's have fine knurling. These differences are indicative of the cast versus forged parts.

My intention here is not to kick off a huge discussion between cast and forged, I just bought a Sharps for a huge sum of money, and I bought the cast receiver, not the forged. Cast 1911 frames have been holding up as well as forged. They are different and the finish on the two methods are different as well.

Personally I currently own only Colt Series 70 1911's.

The Sig of course is space aged alloy.

[Love Life]

Kimbers ad Rugers are Kimbers and Rugers.

Colt is Colt.

If I were wandering down the road of 1911 land That is where I would be looking. A Colt Commander or Government model. The Gold up is nice, but for a business gun I prefer the fixed sights.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My Gawd! I went to Vegas and back and this thread is still going.

Bullshop Jr,,,, Have you made up your mind yet or do you need more convincing?

Randy

[w5pv]

Remember the Colt 1911 has been around for over a hundred and still will not go away.It did the job it was designed to do quiet well and is still doing it.All the rest are copies or clones.It may not be the most accurate gun in terms of minute of angle but who cares about moa when getting shot at at the range the 1911 was designed for.Been shooting one since my Army days in 1962 and it hasn't let me down yet.

[waco]

I have a 5" Kimber custom classic. Had it about 14 years now. Love the 1911's!

[Bullshop Junior]

I went out and shot two glocks last week and they still just feel wierd. Once Inget some
Money, im looking at a 1911. There was a kimbee custum in the local paper the other day for $500 but i dont have he money.

[clownbear69]

Well heres my .02.

When it comes to a .45 ACP I always say 10 rounds and less get a 1911. 11 round and more well get it. My point is for example the Sig 220 you were looking at it uses specific mags and only can be held to 10 at the max. And the mags themselves are expensive. Where as a 1911 are from cheap to expensive and many manufactures make them.

I personally cant stand double stack mags that only hold 10 rounds. Whats the point. A big reason why I stuck away from the HK45 awesome gun but 10 rounders then what did I truly gain.

Some double stacks that are more than 10 rounds are the G21 (you said you hated) Para-Ordinance P14-45 (14 rounds), HK USP (12 rounds), M&P 45 with extended mags (12 rounds) Sig 227 with the extended mags.

Like I said if you get a gun that only takes 10 rounds mind as well go with a 1911

EDIT: you could always get a 6 shooter too if your a hunter .45 LC is a great deer gun

[bigboredad]

What are knurled sides? Rugers slides are forged only the frame is cast. If you get a colt and can't make up your mind if you want a govt or a Commander get one like mine a govt that is roll marked a commander Thats how mine came from colt

[Bullshop Junior]

My last 1911 was a springfield lower with a colt 70 upper. Both here rusted and pitted. That gun was a tank. You could cram it full of mud and dirt and snow, and i even slid down the road on it a couple of times. It always went bang. Never jammed. Never missfired. And always hit where it was aimed.

Om a sidenote. I finally handles the SR45 today and I gotta say, it had a nice feel, came up with the sights on target, and i honestly kinda liked it.

Although, availability is no longer a issue. Ill be in texas by the time I turn 21, and will hopefully have a good enough job to buy myself a nice 1911.

[waco]

My kimber

89845

[waksupi]

Dan, just a thought. I wouldn't be surprised if you can't find a .45 cheaper in Texas, than Alaska.

[Bullshop Junior]

Dan, just a thought. I wouldn't be surprised if you can't find a .45 cheaper in Texas, than Alaska.

This is true. And ita still gonna be a few months after i get to texas before I turn 21. Hopefully by then ill be back on my feet and able to buy myself a birthday gun.

[bigboredad]

Wow Texas from Alaska your body is going to have some serious culture shock. You'll be burning up your first full year year. The gun opportunity should be a lot more plentiful

[W.R.Buchanan]

Not to mention the accent you will develop immediately and find impossible to get shed of. They talk "Taxes" down there, and you will too!.

I was there 40 years ago and It comes back in a few second when I'm around people of the Republic.

Somehow figured you were a little older?

Randy

[Bullshop Junior]

Lol. I worked for a texan for awhile...i picked up pretty fast.

And everyone figures im older lol. I have no idea why.

[RobS]

Lol. I worked for a texan for awhile...i picked up pretty fast.

And everyone figures im older lol. I have no idea why.


Because you were raised right.

[Corvus]

Rumor of Glock showing a new .45acp at the upcoming SHOT Show is going around , long slide such as the G34 and G35 models. If you must have more rounds in the mag than a 1911 holds this could be a nice set up.

I have never shot a Glock 45 so this is only a guess based on owning a G35. I have fired a M&P 45 and a XD45 , then M&P at least to me is a better choice.

[KingAirNeal]

FWIW
I have had 3 different 1911's.
Springfield 1911A1
Remington 1911R1
Taurus 1911PT

Remington didn't impress me at all. Sold it pretty quick. Build quality was not there, accuracy was so so. But I did get one of the very early ones.
The Springfield was very nice, but for the money, the Taurus has more bells and whistles, (better sights, trigger, etc) shoots just as accurate if not a touch more so, and is far less expensive. I do have an issue with the Taurus magazine, but that doesn't detract from the gun in my opinion. Also I had the Springfield over 10 years ago, I would go with a Springfield again without hesitation, but budget constraints (wife wanted one too!)
Our current fleet is the Taurus 1911 for me and a Springfield XD-S in 9mm for the wife. She loves it BTW.

[375supermag]

hi..

My 2 cents worth...

I have owned and/or shot most types of handguns in most calibers, though not all.

I shot Glocks (10mm) , it rubbed the web of my shooting hand raw in one 50-round box of ammo at a range.
I shot Sigs in 9mm when a LE friend was evaluating them for his force.
I have shot a any number of other 9mm-.40S&W, .357Sig, etc . that belonged to friends, acquaintances or fellow shooters at the local gun club.

I own a couple of .45ACP handguns...A SA M1911A1 and a nickle Colt Combat Commander and about two dozen other handguns,

I can carry pretty much whatever I want, concealed carry or open carry.

I choose, after much consideration and no small amount of practice), to carry my two 1911s as my primary carry pieces 95% of the time.

Pretty much the only exceptions are that I have been known to carry one of my Colt Troopers in .357Mag under my winter coat now and then, and a Taurus Spl 5-shot .44Spl in my jacket pocket for quick runs to the convenience store.

I generally carry big-bore revolvers (.41Mag, .44Mag or .45Colt) when hiking or hunting. I usually still carry one of my 1911s concealed when hiking. I have encountered some pretty strange people when hiking...I don't trust most of them, particularly if they are carrying a gun. A nutjob shot two female hikers in an area I hike in about 20 years ago...one of them died. They did catch him ...I think he was put in a mental hospital, IIRC.

[jim 44-40]

Remington R1 , fine 45 Auto, check one out

[oger]

I have a bunch of 1911s, Kimbers, Colts, a couple of P-13s. If the Sig 220 fits your hand use it they are almost a work of art and just plain work well.

[robertbank]

If you have large hands take a look at the CZ97B. Mine from a rest will out shoot most 1911's and certainly would feel at home against any of the high end 1911's you can buy. For around $700 or less out of the box it is a steal. Not as well known in the US as the SIG though.

Take Care

Bob

[Bullshop Junior]

I managed to handle a few 1911s the other day, along with a glock, SR45, XD45 and a sig. My favorite was...the Kimber custom stainless 1911. Now I need to get a job and start saving.

[Fire_Medic]

Get yourself an M&P 45 with thumb safety, drop an Apex FSS trigger kit in it and have fun. This is as close I have found to a 1911 in a plastic 45 that shoots good and feels good. Great trigger, changeable back straps, soft shooting, and lots of aftermarket support. Easy to take down and maintain and VERY accurate.

Just my $0.02.

This was my old 4" model, I had an FDE 5" big brother to it as well. Fell in some bad luck last year and had to let them go, but both were great pistols. And for the record I love 1911's and it's what I learned to shoot with.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/IMG_6320_zpsffa1c352.jpg

[oger]

We have a difference of opinion about the MP-45 I traded mine for a well used Sig 220 and have been smiling ever since. The person I traded with always mentions that if I ever want to get rid of the Sig he is first in line.

[Fire_Medic]

We have a difference of opinion about the MP-45 I traded mine for a well used Sig 220 and have been smiling ever since. The person I traded with always mentions that if I ever want to get rid of the Sig he is first in line.

The recent production M&P's have been better out of the gate than those of the past. Especially in the 9MM flavor. On the original 9's someone at the factory screwed the pooch and they rifled the barrels with tooling for 38's so there was accuracy issues with the twist rate of the barrels and the lighter 9mm projectiles.

I love shooting, and can appreciate the craftsmanship of many firearms, but I won't touch a sig unless it's an older model and I trust the source. The newer Sig's are not what they use to be. Ever since a certain someone from Kimber ended up over at Sig the Quality has gone down hill just like it did with Kimber when he took over there.

For a range gun I wouldn't mind having a sig one day, preferably an X5. But for a training/competition pistol I will pass on anything with such a heavy first pull.

Just my $0.02.

FYI my M&P 45's were just as accurate as my old Wilson Combat 1911's and cost a hell of a lot less, are lighter, crry more rounds, and easier to maintain.

[oger]

Strange, the reason the previous owner and I like the sig is the fact that it has the finest smoothest double action trigger that either one of us (he works at the LGS) have ever felt. Sure it is long but is as smooth as glass and you know exactly when the hammer will fall unlike that disaster S&W put in the M&Ps.

[Piedmont]

The recent production M&P's have been better out of the gate than those of the past. Especially in the 9MM flavor. On the original 9's someone at the factory screwed the pooch and they rifled the barrels with tooling for 38's so there was accuracy issues with the twist rate of the barrels and the lighter 9mm projectiles.



S&W used the 1-18" twist on their older 9mms and on the earlier M&Ps. My M&P is tight at .355" so I think you are just referring to the twist rate when you say they rifled them like a .38 Special. These slower twists are MORE accurate with cast in general and if it proved to be too slow, that would affect accuracy with HEAVY bullets, not light ones. Bar-sto barrels went with 1-16" on their 9mm barrels. SAAMI spec for 9mm is 1-10" and this is widely considered to be too fast.

In my opinion S&W took a step backwards in changing from 1-18 to the 1-10" they use now in the 9mm Luger M&P.

[Fire_Medic]

S&W used the 1-18" twist on their older 9mms and on the earlier M&Ps. My M&P is tight at .355" so I think you are just referring to the twist rate when you say they rifled them like a .38 Special. These slower twists are MORE accurate with cast in general and if it proved to be too slow, that would affect accuracy with HEAVY bullets, not light ones. Bar-sto barrels went with 1-16" on their 9mm barrels. SAAMI spec for 9mm is 1-10" and this is widely considered to be too fast.

In my opinion S&W took a step backwards in changing from 1-18 to the 1-10" they use now in the 9mm Luger M&P.

Yes my apologies I was referring to the twist rate.

I agree on the change but they did what was needed to satisfy the masses. There is a long thread on another forum on all of this. My issue with my old M&P 9mm had nothing to do with its accuracy. I never once had an issue with the 45's and do wish I had not needed to sell them, especially the 4" model. I am also a fan of glocks and my previous Gen 4 9MM was a nightmare after putting close to 3K rounds through it, and trying to discuss that on an open forum was fun, lol. Because all you get is people saying I own one and haven't had an issue so I don't know what you're talking about. Anything mass produced can put out a product with issues, especially with stacking of tolerances. Doesn't mean the whole brand is garbage. What matters in the end is that the company stands behind their product and makes things right. I fixed my G19 Gen 4 on my own no thanks to Smyrna, the biggest reason I didn't send them my pistol was because of the custom work I had done to the frame. Do I hate block as a company and a brand, nope, still own some and have bought some after the issues with my G19.

But hey to each their own, that's why there are so many different platforms and brands. For whatever reason when you talk 45's conversations get very heated, because people are so passionate about what they own.

Would just be nice if the ever so popular trend on arguing on the internet would go away and people would just have humane exchanges with each other about whatever they're discussing.

One of the reasons I migrated over here, for the most part of what I have seen ever since I've been a lurker, folks are decent on this board.

I have grown older, been married, had a few kids, and not so caught up in all the macho tactical BS out in the Eworld. I just want to learn about casting, continue reloading, and shoot. And offer some solid input when I can.

My next two ventures are getting setup to cast, and then getting a nice wheel gun/lever action rifle combo to shoot my "boolits" through.

I'm a die hard 1911 fan, but I think an M&P 45 with a safety and an FSS APEX trigger setup is as close as you will get to one in a polymer pistol.

But I also just love tinkering with my Glocks too much though……..

:-D

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/20131220_230737_zps7f33fd16.jpg

[robertbank]

Piedmont my two 9MM M&P's won't shoot 147 gr boolits worth a hoot. I have had them tumble inside of 10 yards shooting IDPA. All my other 9MM guns are 1 - 10 twist and shoot lead boolits just fine. I am not sure what S&W was thinking of when they made the 1 - 18 barrels. The European guns have always been 1 - 10 including the FN Hi Power and the Inglis. Anyone want to trade a 1 -1 0 twist 5" barrel for a 1 - 18 need only PM me.

Take Care

Bob

[CLAYPOOL]

Bull shop Junior, buy everyone you see. Use the Gary Stratton rule, " If it seems like a bargain, sometimes it is".... I haven't even shoot all of them, as they are coming Hot + Heavy.

[Piedmont]

Piedmont my two 9MM M&P's won't shoot 147 gr boolits worth a hoot. I have had them tumble inside of 10 yards shooting IDPA. All my other 9MM guns are 1 - 10 twist and shoot lead boolits just fine. I am not sure what S&W was thinking of when they made the 1 - 18 barrels. The European guns have always been 1 - 10 including the FN Hi Power and the Inglis. Anyone want to trade a 1 -1 0 twist 5" barrel for a 1 - 18 need only PM me.

Take Care

Bob

That is interesting Bob. I have one of the 1-18" ones but am ashamed to admit I have shot it very little and have standardized on factory ammo that is lighter than you use. 1-18 is also Smiff's twist for their .38 specials and you never hear of any trouble with standard 158 gr lead bullets. Why do you think that is? I don't know the answer, just sitting here scratching my bald spot.

I have done some work with a Barsto 1-16" and it is the most accurate 9mm I have ever tested.

What did you size your 147s to? Or were they factory loads?

[pmer]

A used Glock can be a pretty good deal. I'll throw in my gen 3 G30, a 10+1 round compact that barley sticks out of a back pocket. They're known as one of the better shooting and easier handling weapons in their flock because of a softer recoil pulse. It's no Gold Cup but it's not intended to be one either. To fairly reject a Glock I think you need to fire two or three hundred rounds of ammo with one. By then the trigger is coming around and it's teaching you how it wants to be shot.

Get a good 1911 but I would not be without a Glock for CCW.

[Bullshop Junior]

I had a glock in 9mm for over a year. Still hated it.

[robertbank]

That is interesting Bob. I have one of the 1-18" ones but am ashamed to admit I have shot it very little and have standardized on factory ammo that is lighter than you use. 1-18 is also Smiff's twist for their .38 specials and you never hear of any trouble with standard 158 gr lead bullets. Why do you think that is? I don't know the answer, just sitting here scratching my bald spot.

I have done some work with a Barsto 1-16" and it is the most accurate 9mm I have ever tested.

What did you size your 147s to? Or were they factory loads?

I sized them .357 and they would not work in the M&P. They do well in my CZ, STI Trojan and Tanfoglio. As far as twist rates are concerned I have no answer each caliber seems to have one rate that is either Standard or just one that works. The 9MM twist rate at 1 -10 certainly works. I suspect S&W went intitially with the slower rate because that is what worked in their .38 revolvers. I know my experience has been replicated by friends of mine in Seattle who found the same experience when they went to the 147 gr lead boolit in their M&P's. The faster twist rate now being used certainly should cure the problem with the heavier boolits and likely improve accuracy with the lighter ones as well. Bar Sto and the other after market supliers will have to change to 1 - 10 or run the risk of having barrels nobody wants. You would think somebody at S&W might have asked themselves why most, if not all the other 9MM guns were 1 - 10 twists. It is certainly something less than a state secret. I do know my CZ 85 Combat off a rest will out shoot my FS and 5" PRO M&P for pure accuracy.

Take Care

Bob

[ravelode]

I've owned a fair number of pistols in my time. Some were very poorly made (a Taurus 1911 was the worst). I got rid of my Glock's after my M21 had a feed ramp case rupture. After consulting with a very experienced LE (hunting buddy), I am currently using Springfield XD in .45 - 5K rounds all with cast 200 Lee RNFP. It jams every time I use any SWC. So the RNFP is my bullet of choice,

[h8dirt]

Buy the best 1911 you can afford. Wilson, Brown, Baer, ... Buy once; cry once. But, if you're really serious about being a 45 shooter, you'll never regret getting a really good one.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I was lookin on gun broker and the thing i lied about the SR45 was its cheap, but i do like the look and feel of a 5" 1911. What about the rock island pistols?

I own 5 of them. They have all been great guns with excellent accuracy and QC out of the box. Standard grips stink, replace them with checkered. My favorite is a 4" barreled Mid length as they call it or "Commander" model as Colt calls it. I put a Videcki trigger in that gun, tuned the insides, bright blued the exterior to 555 black, put a pair of ivory grips on it and carried it for years. It's deadly accurate and I trust it with my life.

[gussiegoins2]

It kinda depends on you and what kind of approach you want to have with handguns. I love my sig 220. Best shooter straight out of the box I have owned. Reliable and accurate. Not fussy. Look at the aftermarket market for 1911 parts. Huge huge market. Why? Coz they usually need them. Look at the Sig 220 aftermarket market for parts. Very small. Why? Coz they don't need them. Now if you are the type that likes tinkering with a pistol and pouring ever more money into one, get a 1911. But if you are like I was at 21 and your pistol dollars are up against girl/car dollars then get a Sig. Hopefully you'll get a 1911 someday when money isn't so tight. And if the 1911 doesn't work out so great or you have start swapping out parts on it you'll still have that fine shooting 220. Just my opinion. Hope it helps.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Look at the aftermarket market for 1911 parts. Huge huge market. Why? Coz they usually need them.ACtually, it's because the pistol lends itself really well to customization and is an extremely popular pistol, so there's lots of folks who own one that want to modify theirs to suit them.

Look at the Sig 220 aftermarket market for parts. Very small. Why? Coz they don't need them.Actually, it's because the sigs don't lend themselves well to modification, are a pain to tune and aren't particular popular, so a company making aftermarket parts for them would not find much of a market. Just not enough guns out there.

Now if you are the type that likes tinkering with a pistol and pouring ever more money into one, get a 1911.
The most highly tuned 1911 I have cost me less than the retail price of a sig. In a firefight, I'm confident I can outshoot and outspeed a sig user. I'm an old man now and slow, compared to the last time I actually used a 1911 against a man. At that time, a very well worn and rattle trap 1911A1 military rebuild saved my rear end against men well armed with AK's and did so in short order. There is, after all, a reason they call it the "Yankee Fist." To date, sig has earned no such nickname or affection. Though you might want to nickname your sig.

But if you are like I was at 21 and your pistol dollars are up against girl/car dollars then get a Sig. Hopefully you'll get a 1911 someday when money isn't so tight. And if the 1911 doesn't work out so great or you have start swapping out parts on it you'll still have that fine shooting 220. Just my opinion. Hope it helps.ON that highly tuned 1911 I swapped out the trigger. Not because it needed it, but because I wanted a target trigger. The stock trigger was better than any sig I've shot and I've shot a bunch of them. None of their triggers were ever as good as a basic 1911, much less a tuned one. Reliable, yes, but so is a Toyota Tercel, a most miserable car to ride in as one's daily driver.

Bullshop Jr,

If you're partial to 1911's, buy one as much like you want to start with, then do a little basic tuning to it to smooth it up or just shoot it a lot. Doesn't have to be expensive and doesn't need a ton of aftermarket parts. That's the most bs I've ever heard. Of the 5 I have, only two has an aftermarket part and they're both triggers. Not because they needed them, but because I'm particular difficult to make happy when it comes to pistol triggers. Why? Because on a handgun, the sights, the trigger and the balance of the firearm are the biggest contributors to accuracy. Generally speaking, on any handgun, regardless of brand, a tuning job, including a trigger job, will improve accuracy and the pleasure of function. Including the sigs, though to me, they're miserable to tune.