A Theoretical Question...

[NYBushBro]

I have considered taking a BB and dropping it into a mold cavity to plug a HP hole prior to casting.

Has anyone tried this, and used it on game?

I'm wondering whether it would act like a Remington 'Bronze Point' bullet, and initiate expansion by having the BB driven back into the bullet during impact.

In theory, it sounds plausible... but if anyone has actually done it - and used it on game - I would be interested in hearing your results.

Conjecture aside, I would prefer to hear any actual hunting experiences, either pro or con.

[JeffinNZ]

Sounds like a great idea.

[dnepr]

Thought about trying that with the lee 312-155-2r mold , as the boolits from this mold seem to be very cooperative but not what I would consider a good game boolit unfortunately I haven't tried it so I have no first hand experience

[tommag]

Never tried that, but I would think the lead would float the bb.

[gray wolf]

A HP bullet depends on fluid filling the cavity to initiate expansion. A BB in the cavity may look cool but I don't think it will contribute to the bullet opening up. I think more counter productive.
Just sayin.

[Digital Dan]

Pondering the geometry of a hollow point mould and haven't figured out how one would do this. Perhaps after the bullet is cast?

[Sasquatch-1]

I agree. Isn't the hollow point made by an additional piece of metal that keep the lead out of the nose of the bullet?

88751

Unless you are planning to do some modification to the part that makes the hollow point or just trying to use the BB to fill the hole it goes into, I don't see how this would work. (picture is for example only)


Pondering the geometry of a hollow point mould and haven't figured out how one would do this. Perhaps after the bullet is cast?

[375RUGER]

He's talking about the pins being removed and a BB plugging the hole like a blank pin.

[Larry Gibson]

I have considered taking a BB and dropping it into a mold cavity to plug a HP hole prior to casting.

Has anyone tried this, and used it on game?

I'm wondering whether it would act like a Remington 'Bronze Point' bullet, and initiate expansion by having the BB driven back into the bullet during impact.

In theory, it sounds plausible... but if anyone has actually done it - and used it on game - I would be interested in hearing your results.

Conjecture aside, I would prefer to hear any actual hunting experiences, either pro or con.

I read about doing this probably 40+ years ago. It does work very well and the BB does not "float" up in the mould. The old copper BBs were my preference but are hard to come by these days. The steel BBs work fine though. I've done this with numerous moulds when I want a "solid" for testing purposes and have hunted with 2 different bullets with BBs in the nose. The 2 cast bullets I have hunted with using BBs in the bullet nose were the 311299 and the 323471. Alloy for both was a softer alloy similar to todays COWW + 2% tin mixed at 50/50 with lead. In expansion tests using sopping wet newsprint I did not find expansion any better than with a FP bullet of the same alloy and velocity. They killed the deer I shot with them but I did not really see any improvement in terminal effectiveness as in the deer dying quicker than if shot with a 311041 FP for instance.

With a couple moulds with more tapered nose designs the BB will come out after the bullet cools which leaves a dished half BB sized cup in the nose. That also makes a very effective hunting bullet. If the alloy and velocity is sufficient expansion is then excellent.

As I'm mentioning I did not find that the BB, when cast in the front of the nose, acted like the bronze tip driving into the alloy for rapid expansion. The plain HP always worked better. However, when taking the soft alloy HP cast bullet with the typical long Lyman HP stem and drilling a hole in the bullet nose slightly smaller in diameter than the BB and only deep enough to swage around and hold the BB in place makes for a very deadly and violently expanding cast bullet. The BB is seated Into and slightly swaged in place at the top of the long HP cavity during the sizing of the bullet in the lubrasizer. That leaves the long hollow cavity under the bullet for the BB to be driven into on impact. I did not hunt with that bullet (311041HP) but expansion tests in the wet newsprint showed very quick and violent expansion, more than I wanted.

In casting with BBs I put the tin lid from the old Hornady GC can with the BBs in it on the mould warm up holder on top of my Lyman furnace. This kept the BBs hot and the alloy cast well around the BB. I used tweezers to pickup the hot BB and put it in the mould before closing the sprue plate and casting.

Larry Gibson

[elk hunter]

I've used lead shot to plug the hole in a 45 caliber, 330 grain hollow point mould and for what I wanted, no violent expansion and more weight, it worked great. I simply dropped the shot in and rolled it around till it stopped in the point hole and poured the bullet. The bullets look a little strange, but shoot well. You wouldn't want to use them in a tubular magazine as the BB nose might set off the round in front of it.

[montana_charlie]

He's talking about the pins being removed and a BB plugging the hole like a blank pin.
A Theoretical Answer ...
The (steel) BB being lighter than lead, it would probably float on molten alloy just like a cast iron Lyman dipper.
With the 'plug' floating, it probably wouldn't close the hole until all of the alloy was in your lap.

CM

[Larry Gibson]

A Theoretical Answer ...
The (steel) BB being lighter than lead, it would probably float on molten alloy just like a cast iron Lyman dipper.
With the 'plug' floating, it probably wouldn't close the hole until all of the alloy was in your lap.

CM

Except the BB doesn't "float" to the top in the cavity as the alloy solidifies around it too quickly. If the BB is not preheated before it is put into some moulds there are real ugly wrinkles and voids around it.......but the BB is still in the nose of the bullet. Many "Theoretical Answer"s when put to the test don't pan out.

Larry Gibson

[paul h]

Something to consider. The reason bronze points, plastic tips and hp cavities are gradually tapered is so that they can wedge the bullet open. Some as using a splitting wedge on firewood.

Using a BB would be akin to wacking a round of firewood with an 8# ball pein hammer. It's not going to split the wood.

[NYBushBro]

I read about doing this probably 40+ years ago. It does work very well and the BB does not "float" up in the mould. The old copper BBs were my preference but are hard to come by these days. The steel BBs work fine though. I've done this with numerous moulds when I want a "solid" for testing purposes and have hunted with 2 different bullets with BBs in the nose. The 2 cast bullets I have hunted with using BBs in the bullet nose were the 311299 and the 323471. Alloy for both was a softer alloy similar to todays COWW + 2% tin mixed at 50/50 with lead. In expansion tests using sopping wet newsprint I did not find expansion any better than with a FP bullet of the same alloy and velocity. They killed the deer I shot with them but I did not really see any improvement in terminal effectiveness as in the deer dying quicker than if shot with a 311041 FP for instance.

With a couple moulds with more tapered nose designs the BB will come out after the bullet cools which leaves a dished half BB sized cup in the nose. That also makes a very effective hunting bullet. If the alloy and velocity is sufficient expansion is then excellent.

As I'm mentioning I did not find that the BB, when cast in the front of the nose, acted like the bronze tip driving into the alloy for rapid expansion. The plain HP always worked better. However, when taking the soft alloy HP cast bullet with the typical long Lyman HP stem and drilling a hole in the bullet nose slightly smaller in diameter than the BB and only deep enough to swage around and hold the BB in place makes for a very deadly and violently expanding cast bullet. The BB is seated Into and slightly swaged in place at the top of the long HP cavity during the sizing of the bullet in the lubrasizer. That leaves the long hollow cavity under the bullet for the BB to be driven into on impact. I did not hunt with that bullet (311041HP) but expansion tests in the wet newsprint showed very quick and violent expansion, more than I wanted.

In casting with BBs I put the tin lid from the old Hornady GC can with the BBs in it on the mould warm up holder on top of my Lyman furnace. This kept the BBs hot and the alloy cast well around the BB. I used tweezers to pickup the hot BB and put it in the mould before closing the sprue plate and casting.

Larry Gibson

Thanks, Larry... I figured someone tried this (there is nothing new under the sun.)

Now I know how to pursue further testing.

(NOTE: for the other posters, the HP molds I was thinking about are Lyman/NOE type HP cavities, not the Cramer/Mihec captive pins.)

[bhn22]

Except the BB doesn't "float" to the top in the cavity as the alloy solidifies around it too quickly. If the BB is not preheated before it is put into some moulds there are real ugly wrinkles and voids around it.......but the BB is still in the nose of the bullet. Many "Theoretical Answer"s when put to the test don't pan out.
Larry Gibson

Hmmm... I tried this a couple of years ago, and my BB floated out of the channel. I had preheated the BBs in a Lee dipper, floating on top of the melt. I'll bet this is be the first time two guys tried something and got different results. :)

[beagle]

Yes, it was tried years ago without much success but it worked so so. There was also an article on using the 457122HP in the .45-70 and a BB. The HP cavity was filled with liquid. Water, oil or hydraulic fluid as I recall and a BB placed in the cavity and swaged down to seal it with a TP. Then, the bullet was loaded in the case as normal. This trapped the fluid and upon impact, it ruptured the nose and cause enhanced expansion in the .45/70. Believe this was in an American Rifleman in the past. Something to mess with./beagle

[Sasquatch-1]

I think I remember this and the liquid was actually Mercury. This was a good 25 to 30 years ago before the Government started trying to protect us from our selves. Looking back, it didn't catch on and probably was not healthy, but as I remember it was suppose to be a man stopper.



Yes, it was tried years ago without much success but it worked so so. There was also an article on using the 457122HP in the .45-70 and a BB. The HP cavity was filled with liquid. Water, oil or hydraulic fluid as I recall and a BB placed in the cavity and swaged down to seal it with a TP. Then, the bullet was loaded in the case as normal. This trapped the fluid and upon impact, it ruptured the nose and cause enhanced expansion in the .45/70. Believe this was in an American Rifleman in the past. Something to mess with./beagle

[44man]

In todays world you can shoot a creep full of holes but if they find mercury you will be accused of making deadly boolits.
However, werewolves, zombies and vampires are open game.
You can tell one, it is chicken and comes up behind people and punches them.

[Bloodman14]

Hasn't some commercial company done this with muzzleloader bullets using food-grade grease in the cavity? I think I saw this in a Cabela's catalog.

[fcvan]

I have two Lee molds that are single cavity hollow point back when they made such things. The hp cavity is .177 and a BB fits nicely. Upon impact the BB does push back causing greater expansion. Theoretically, a small pistol primer is the same size and would cause an even greater expansion upon impact. Such a thing would be a huge no no as explosive boolits are pretty much verboten. I never got up the nerve to try such a thing but as a kid I did muzzle load some small primers in my Red Ryder and shoot them at the neighbors chimney and they did go boom on impact.

[T-Man]

I actually tried that. Didn't work out too well. My solution was to chuck up some brass rod in my trusty little bench top lathe and turn out some Spitzer end plugs and after swaging a batch of 140gr 284's for my 7mm mag, I chucked them in my drill press and hollowed out the pointy end and then crimped the plug in. You have to make a taper crimp die and use judicious pressure. I finally settled on a torque wrench mounted in place of the handle on my RCBS Rock Chucker to crimp the plugs in the bullets consistently. All in all, Buy the Bronze Points by Remington and save yourself a whole slew of trouble.

[303Guy]

Such a thing would be a huge no no as explosive boolits are pretty much verboten.Funny thing is it was the use of explosive bullets that saved the life of press secretary James Grady. The bullet that struck him exploded on his forehead shattering his scull but there were no heavy bullet fragments to penetrate his brain. Reagan was hit by a ricochet which did not explode. It still did a lot of damage to Grady who was left disabled. But I digress ....

[fatnhappy]

Funny thing is it was the use of explosive bullets that saved the life of press secretary James Grady. The bullet that struck him exploded on his forehead shattering his scull but there were no heavy bullet fragments to penetrate his brain. Reagan was hit by a ricochet which did not explode. It still did a lot of damage to Grady who was left disabled. But I digress ....

Frangible. The word we're looking for here is frangible.

sorry, I just can't stand the term "explosive bullets" when it's nothing of the sort.

[Larry Gibson]

Ah, but there is and was "explosive bullets". They had a hollow cavity that was filled with a compound that did explode on contact. They were made in multiple cartridges including .22LRs. I still have some 9mms and maybe one 44 magnum left. Keith also made them with .22 blanks and BP in the nose of large cast bullets for SS rifles. I did the same following his writings many years ago for 45-70s. Lot's of fun on long range rocks:)

Larry Gibson

[williamwaco]

Except the BB doesn't "float" to the top in the cavity as the alloy solidifies around it too quickly. If the BB is not preheated before it is put into some moulds there are real ugly wrinkles and voids around it.......but the BB is still in the nose of the bullet. Many "Theoretical Answer"s when put to the test don't pan out.

Larry Gibson


WOW! AMEN! That is the understatement of the year!

[facetious]

I worked with a guy who told me that he screwed screws in to the HP's for what ever hand gun he had. I do not know how well it worked but I would think you would want a brass screw.

[Bret4207]

Played with this years back. You need a soft alloy and some speed. Thing is, with a soft alloy and enough speed you'll get some distortion anyway. Might be better off looking at a HP with dead soft lead and paper patching is expansion is your thing.

[Sasquatch-1]

Well annealed jacket and dead soft lead. 240 grn bullet weight hollow point with 7 grns of unique fired from a 7.5" SBH in 44. Personally, I don't think you can ask for better expansion.


89281

[375RUGER]

What medium did you fire those into?

[Sasquatch-1]

The first two were fired through a 2x4 and into a berm, the third was fired into a 1 foot square box of losely pact dirt. It penetrated the box and fell to the ground after hitting the stump the box was resting against. Distance was about 15 yds. on all.


What medium did you fire those into?

[Bret4207]

The first two were fired through a 2x4 and into a berm, the third was fired into a 1 foot square box of losely pact dirt. It penetrated the box and fell to the ground after hitting the stump the box was resting against. Distance was about 15 yds. on all.

Okay, no offense, but those mediums are not flesh and bone. IME what mushrooms great in dirt and sand may not do squat in flesh. Just want to make sure people realize that.

[Old Dawg]

All airgun BB's are steel.

[Larry Gibson]

All airgun BB's are steel.

Didn't used to be, even had lead ones.

Larry Gibson

[Oreo]

I thought there were laws prohibiting this kind of ammo in handguns. I mean, I know you guys are talking about increasing expansion but legally the steel tip would be considered a penetrator of body armor. No?

[Sasquatch-1]

Compared to the rounds I have dug from the berm that are cast, none come close to this type of expansion. The point is try the softer lead and hollow point and there should be no reason to place anything in the tip.



Okay, no offense, but those mediums are not flesh and bone. IME what mushrooms great in dirt and sand may not do squat in flesh. Just want to make sure people realize that.

[Bret4207]

I thought there were laws prohibiting this kind of ammo in handguns. I mean, I know you guys are talking about increasing expansion but legally the steel tip would be considered a penetrator of body armor. No?

Not sure where you got that. Would the Remington Bronze Point be illegal then? Don't think so. A BB is not going to penetrate street level body armor until you get it way up in speed and it's even less likely when it's in a HP cavity that would theoretically collapse on impact.

Now, would Diane Fienstein say it should be illegal? You betcha!

[Bret4207]

Compared to the rounds I have dug from the berm that are cast, none come close to this type of expansion. The point is try the softer lead and hollow point and there should be no reason to place anything in the tip.


Okay, now I get you.

[Oreo]

Not sure where you got that. Would the Remington Bronze Point be illegal then? Don't think so. A BB is not going to penetrate street level body armor until you get it way up in speed and it's even less likely when it's in a HP cavity that would theoretically collapse on impact.

Now, would Diane Fienstein say it should be illegal? You betcha!

It might be a Maryland thing but I know there are some definitions of AP that cover this. Some materials like copper, lead, and brass are ok and some like steel, tungsten, and Beryllium-copper are not. There are also parts of the law that differentiate between the core and the jacket and which can be made from what, etc.

[Larry Gibson]

I thought there were laws prohibiting this kind of ammo in handguns. I mean, I know you guys are talking about increasing expansion but legally the steel tip would be considered a penetrator of body armor. No?

No. The BB is there to cause bullet expansion, not penetration. Besides I only used it in rifle bullets anyway.........as Sasquatch-1 mentions a proper alloy and HP is really all that's needed. Only time I use the BB in the nose now is simply to cast a solid with my 323471 mould for the 8x57 and that's not very often anymore as the HPs shoot so well.

Larry Gibson

[Oreo]

Don't bring them to MD then. Bad juju, I think.