Thinking about blueing methods - for the smiths out there

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Howdy,

For quite a number of years, I helped a buddy of mine's gunsmith business. I've cleaned, repaired, polished and refinished many a gun during that time. I've done a lot of polishing for hot blue salts and blasting for parkerizing. I know the difference in color between Brownell's Oxynate #7 and Du-lite salts.

Years ago, I polished a 1911 compact model I had to 555 Black, then blued it using Du-lite salts. The end result was a deep black that went perfect with some yellow ivory grips I installed. I was very pleased with the end result.

Time passed, the pistol was stolen and has recently, through great luck and the honesty of a man, came back to me. Unfortunately, it was dinged up and scratched up on one side, looks like it was dropped in a concrete parking lot, then kicked about ten feet. It is going to need to be refinished. Some of the dings are a lot like little rust pits. I may be able to draw file out or sand on a flat stone/tile for most, but perhaps not all the dings, but I will definitely have to do that before repolishing and reblueing.

My buddy currently is using Oxynate #7 salts and just bought a 5 gallon pail and he prefers the Brownell's salts for most of his finishes, so chances of getting another Du-lite black oxide finish from him are slim to none.

My son in law has a S&W .357 blued gun he inherited from his father. It too needs to be polished and refinished. It appears to have been blued with Du-lite black oxide salts.

I have several stainless steel pots and pans sets I bought from Harbor Freight to do parkerizing small parts with at home. I also have heat sources in couple three burner gas burners I can use as a heat source. So I could do hot salts if I had to. Unfortunately, Brownells doesn't have "home kit" blueing chemical setups and I only need to do these two guns.

I have also been thinking of trying my hand at Browning/blueing using the prep metal, rub on chemical application, hot water soak, card rust method I think it's called. Labor time is not an issue, since I'm doing it in a hobby scenario where the results is my only interest.

Would love to hear opinions about the rust blue vs. hot caustic blueing salts approaches for my scenario. What do you guys think?

[flydoc]

I prefer the hot blue finish but have done several dicropan IM finishes ( Brownells) on old double barrels , since the hot blue would melt the solder. I have been very pleased with the finish, but would urge you to use meticulous cleaning and de-greasing, as well as distilled water for the boil, so as to reduce spotting. De-greasing the carding wool is a must. Never had the chance to use Belgian rust blue preps but have read most of the posts here and some really like them. Give the Dicropan a try, not too expensive, simple method , not really that much labor involved, finish has adequate durability.

[Goatwhiskers]

Flydoc has it right, cleanliness cannot be stressed too much. Dicropan works well, I have also used the same technique with Oxpho, it works well and is a phosphate finish. I have used the old Neidner rust blue formula and prefer it, but the process is somewhat labor intensive. On the other hand a rust blue wears like, well, like iron. GW

[roysha]

"Would love to hear opinions about the rust blue vs. hot blueing salts approaches for my scenario. What do you guys think? "

When you say hot blueing salts do you mean the hot bluing method or are you using the generic term for hot caustic blacking?

If the former I have no opinion. If the latter, I would like to suggest the formula in Dunlaps book that uses ammonium nitrate and lye (sodium hydroxide). It is very tough and depending on the final finish you give the metal, the color ranges from very dark gray to a beautiful lustrous black. Plus it is extremely durable and you can mix up as much or as little as you want and it seems to last a long, long time.

There are a couple of down sides;
1. When you mix them initially they give off a HUGE amount of ammonia gas and generate quite a bit of heat and fizz. I found the best way was to mix the AN with water then carefully and slowly sprinkle the lye on. The stories I could tell about my first use of this formula are for another time. Suffice to say, they were exciting and interesting. Definitely an outside job. After that they smell just pretty much like any other blacking solution.
2. Thanks to our ever vigilant government most lye now has stuff added so the meth idiots can't use it for their junk and likewise the ammonium nitrate is adulterated with stuff so bombs can't be made from it. However, the "pure" chemicals are available with minimal searching.

[oldred]

Since the hot blue would melt the solder.


Just to clear up a common misconception, hot blue does not melt solder. The melting point of solder is quite a bit higher than the bluing solution's max temperature so it is in no danger of melting rather it is chemically attacked by the solution and the solution will react with soft solder regardless of temperature, it does however work a heck of a lot quicker at the solution boiling point. This becomes important if a person selects a solder by it's melting point when making repairs in the mistaken belief that it will be safe for hot blue because the melting point is a lot higher than the solution, solder must be chosen for it's alloy and melting point is not the deciding factor. The solution will even dissolve an Aluminum frame gun or any Aluminum parts also just as it will soft solder.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

"Would love to hear opinions about the rust blue vs. hot blueing salts approaches for my scenario. What do you guys think? "

When you say hot blueing salts do you mean the hot bluing method or are you using the generic term for hot caustic blacking? When I say rust blue I mean the rust/hot water/card method and when I say hot blue I mean what most gunsmiths use today because of lack of time.

If the former I have no opinion. If the latter, I would like to suggest the formula in Dunlaps book that uses ammonium nitrate and lye (sodium hydroxide). It is very tough and depending on the final finish you give the metal, the color ranges from very dark gray to a beautiful lustrous black.Can you elaborate on this? I'm interested in getting a beautiful lustrous black for sure. I normally think in terms of various grits of Polish-O-Ray, then throw it in the hot salt tank, so I'm not sure what method you're working on to get the final finish. I truly an not familiar with other methods, as this method we used was very effective when working to make money. Is the mix you're talking about for a rust blue using a wipe on/rust/hot water/card setup?

Plus it is extremely durable and you can mix up as much or as little as you want and it seems to last a long, long time.

There are a couple of down sides;
1. When you mix them initially they give off a HUGE amount of ammonia gas and generate quite a bit of heat and fizz. I found the best way was to mix the AN with water then carefully and slowly sprinkle the lye on. The stories I could tell about my first use of this formula are for another time. Suffice to say, they were exciting and interesting. Definitely an outside job. After that they smell just pretty much like any other blacking solution.
2. Thanks to our ever vigilant government most lye now has stuff added so the meth idiots can't use it for their junk and likewise the ammonium nitrate is adulterated with stuff so bombs can't be made from it. However, the "pure" chemicals are available with minimal searching.

I'm at a point I think I generally prefer pre-made chemicals, simply from a time and shipping costs standpoint. I've found if you look for individual chemicals, you have to buy enough to do a small ton of guns. I'm only looking to do two pistols, so I'm thinking not a lot is required.

[flounderman]

I personally like the Mark Lee Express rust blue. You need something to boil the parts in and you can clean steel wool with acetone and card with that. It does a good job and it only takes a few hours and requires minimal equipment and, it does a good job. I don't think there is anything better to do a few guns.

[rattletrap1970]

I use Mark Lee Express and I could not be happier with the ease or use, durability or appearance.

[roysha]

"Can you elaborate on this? I'm interested in getting a beautiful lustrous black for sure. I normally think in terms of various grits of Polish-O-Ray, then throw it in the hot salt tank, so I'm not sure what method you're working on to get the final finish. I truly an not familiar with other methods, as this method we used was very effective when working to make money. Is the mix you're talking about for a rust blue using a wipe on/rust/hot water/card setup?"

Polishing. In this case I am referring to revolvers in particular. For the very nicest finish it is a lot of work. I hand polish through 500 emery cloth using appropriate backers to keep things flat and not dish out any screw holes or round off corners, etc. Then I finish with a buff of Brownells 555 on a loose (unsewn) muslin wheel.

The mix is a hot caustic black, not acid blue (hot or cold rust) which it sounds like you are leaning toward. Personally I have not had much luck with the rust bluing processes because somewhere along the line I always manage to contaminate the surface somehow.

The above formula is very forgiving in regard to oil contamination. Once, just as an experiment (my salts were about depleted so I really didn't care what happened) I washed an assembled revolver in my parts washing tank, Stoddard solvent, rinsed with brake parts cleaner, dried, dipped in muriatic acid to strip the blue, neutralized the acid in cold tap water and threw into the bath. A little residual oil and cud that didn't get completely removed in the washings, floated to the top where I could skim them off and the parts all came out properly blacked with no indication of any blotching or spotting due to oil contamination. Definitely NOT a recommended thing to do but I was curious about the claims made for this formula and they proved, at least to my satisfaction, to be valid.

One last thing. I was under the impression that the acid blues did not affect the soft solder of ribs and some sights and that is why those methods were used to blue in those situations. Hot caustic blacking on the other hand, will most assuredly eat the soft solder. Voice of experience speaking here.:sad:

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I don't have Dunlap's book, so I don't have the formula, but that might provide me a way to make my own caustic salts without having to buy 40 plus pounds from Brownells. What is the formula from Dunlap's book?

[wrench]

Interested in this thread, has anyone used this stuff?
http://www.rustblue.com/

[roysha]

Formula:
5 pounds lye (sodium hydroxide)
2 1/2 pounds ammonium nitrate
1 gallon water (distilled)

You can, of course make any amount you need/want as long as you keep the ratios the same. The water is a bit much and it takes a while to reach the operating temp of 285*-295* when you are working with a fresh batch but after that just add a cup or so of water, depending on the quantity you have made up and you're good to go. If the bath gets too hot you can cool it a bit by putting ice cubes in. However, DON'T try adding water to the hot mix. It will spatter badly and actually evaporate about as fast as you add it. Again, been there, done that. The burns hurt like ****!

Ideally when you mix the chemicals together, you would have a light breeze so you can work upwind. When I say it generates LOTS of ammonia gas, that is exactly what I mean. After the mixing and first heat all is well.

You can add the lye OR the AN (yes I know that is not the proper chemical designation but I'm to lazy to keep spelling it out) to the water with no problem, BUT when you add the other one, that is when the gas and heat is generated. BE CAREFUL!

For small items (handguns for example) I have a stainless steel deep fat fryer that I use on a Coleman camp stove. For long guns, I have a 5 gallon tank with pipe burner setup. I have also blacked bolts for antique auto restorers. They really like it because it is very durable and the color is very correct.

The new salts black very quickly then gradually slow as they are used again and again.

Temperature is important, too cool and pretty much nothing happens and too hot and you have instant rust. This can be taken off with 0000 steel wool after the parts have been dumped in the neutralizing cold water tank. They can then put back into the blacking tank after the temp has been brought down with ice cubes. Reducing the heat source won't do it.

The lye is readily available on ebay, Amazon, Lowe's, Ace Hardware, etc.

The AN can be a bit more of a problem I am fortunate to have a major fertilizer applicator in this general area and, although I haven't purchased any for several years, they would sell me small amounts (4-5 pounds) without too much hassle. The big concern is that it will be used in explosive devices but the small quantity seemed to ease the concern a bit plus the owner is a shooter/hunter so when I explained what I was doing with it he eased up even more.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Roysha,

Is the Red Devil Lye from Ace Hardware pure enough?

I can get the pure ammonium nitrate. My wife manages a nursery, so plant chemicals are no big deal for her to get.

Is the ammonium nitrate the preferred chemical in this case? I'm wondering if another nitrate that didn't give of ammonia gas could be substituted.

I'm surprised you're blueing in a stainless steel pot. I have several big pots I use for parkerizing. Brownells advised against using stainless when I talked with them on the phone about blueing Wednesday.

Thank you all for the information.

[roysha]

Red Devil is what I have used in the past. Also at one time I used Lewis Lye but the Red Devil was more readily available.

Having your source for AN is great!

I don't pretend to even remotely understand the reaction of various chemicals so all I can say is that if the formula calls for this, that or the other, that is what I use.

Well, I guess in my ignorance I didn't know I wasn't supposed to use SS when blacking so have been fortunate with the couple dozen guns I have done over the last 20 years or so. Prior to that I did everything in the big tanks which was a bit inconvenient because either I had to wait till I had enough guns to make it worth while or I was wasting a lot of propane and time heating the big tanks for just one pistol. That is why I went to the smaller tank. After researching this a bit, perhaps I need to change that part of my process if I decide to do anymore. I seldom black now, so this may be the deciding factor in not blacking anymore at all. My big tanks are mild steel so I guess I'm OK there.

A couple more points; This formula is no good for cast parts.(Rugers for example) They will turn red, plum or whatever color you want to call it. Brownell's additive to prevent this in their salts does not work for this formula. Also I've had one, and only one, M-12 WIN receiver turn red. All the rest of the M-12s I have done over the years were no problem. Never did figure that one out.

Another thing I like about this formula is that is stays in the tank. I have had salts that one could literally watch them climb up the sides of the tanks and I was constantly scraping them back down into the tank. In fact, Brownell's sells, or at least they use to, a product to help prevent this with their salts. No big deal, just a pain.

[rattletrap1970]

See I haven't done the caustic bluing yet. I have all the stuff, just never get around to it. The slow rust bluing just simply works.. Every time. As long as the the parts are as reasonably clean as you can get them.the surface finish will never be "mirror like". The process does etch the metal to some degree, so you end up with somewhere just south of a gloss finish. Once you finish and oil the parts they do shine nicely. But I have found if you warm up the parts with a torch till they are just on the uncomfortable side to hold with your bare hands and then apply the Mark Lee Express Blue so that it evaporates off the metal almost immediately, you get very good results AND with the heat, the process is more tolerant of parts that are less clean than they should be.

This isn't a great picture but you can see the color ain't bad.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rattletrap1970/3aebb5f4e89a5ef083ab3439366ce7e7_zpsa5538553.jpg

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

rattletrap,

That is a handsome looking shotgun you have there. I'm still very interested in the rust blue process, but after talking with the Brownells tech guy I'm not sure pistols and revolvers are the best place to try it out. He suggested it worked much better with shotguns. Of course, he may have been trying to sell me a hot caustic blueing kit, who knows.

If you're out there and you've done pistols and revolvers with rust blueing, I'd like to hear from you.

Roysha,

I may be just a bit cynical, but the Brownells guy also suggested buying one of their hot blueing kits might be the way to go. He didn't seem to like I had a home made parkerizing setup for pistols, but maybe that was just my perception. If you've blued that many firearms in stainless steel pots, maybe it's just Brownells salts that have a problem.

Any chemists out there that can answer if stainless steel would affect a hot caustic blueing salt process?

[rattletrap1970]

Works great on pistols.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rattletrap1970/Guns/Colt%20Gold%20Cup/f969d5d06965f26c6239812338992463_zps9de16608.jpg

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Works great on pistols.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/rattletrap1970/Guns/Colt%20Gold%20Cup/f969d5d06965f26c6239812338992463_zps9de16608.jpg

How much time/work was involved with that frame? That's a nice professional looking weapon flat black.

[rattletrap1970]

Well, that particular frame needed work because it was gouged up and some yo-yo drilled 10 holes in the dust over to mouse a scope mount to it. (Drilled the holes by hand ). So, I had to tig weld the holes then sand the frame down on wet/dry sandpaper that I spray adhesived to a granite block (for flatness). Finished it all up with 320 grit wet. The frame isn't flat black, I'd say just shy of a gloss. The process has a way or "evening out" so if you grit blasted with say 180 to 240 aluminum oxide I'd say you'd end up with a satin finish. The benefit of the slow rust process is it's cheap, simple, relatively non toxic (pretty much just don't eat it), it is exceedingly though and rust resistant (particularly after a 24hour heated oil bath, although I find just warming the parts and applying a good quality oil works fine) then wiping off.

[flydoc]

The pilkington solution is generally well liked and here is a homemade solution you might try:It supposedly duplicates A.O.Niedner's recipe.
2.5 oz. Nitric acid
2.0 oz. Hydrochloric acid
1.0 oz. iron nails
30.0 oz. distilled water

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Rattletrap,

Posted some questions in your post quote below.


Well, that particular frame needed work because it was gouged up and some yo-yo drilled 10 holes in the dust over to mouse a scope mount to it. (Drilled the holes by hand ). So, I had to tig weld the holesDid you end up having color variation where the tig welds were? I'm curious because in the past, I've run into frames and such we've had to draw file, but none with holes bad enough to need a weld, so I'm curious with the blueing if there was a color difference. I don't currently own a tig welder, but I have access to one and the pistol I'm refinishing has some fairly deep rock gouges in it. Appears to have been dropped in a concrete parking lot, so it'll take a good bit of draw filing to get the dings out.

then sand the frame down on wet/dry sandpaper that I spray adhesived to a granite block (for flatness).
Don't have a granite block, but I do have floor tiles I used to use to sharpen my wood plane blades with. They should work for that.

Finished it all up with 320 grit wet. The frame isn't flat black, I'd say just shy of a gloss. Fooled me, probably due to the angle, so a semi gloss, which looks real nice. Pics on the net can be tricky, due to monitor variation, camera, etc.

The process has a way or "evening out" so if you grit blasted with say 180 to 240 aluminum oxide I'd say you'd end up with a satin finish. That would look real nice on the .22 rifle I'm redoing for my son in law. I've been working on coming up with a cheap park tank to park it, but it's not went as well as I'd like, mostly due to the cheap heating elements made in china and now either 100% stainless or with crappy chrome coating. Sounds like this may be the way to go, as even bead blasting hasn't taken out a lot of the pitting on the outside of the barrel, so losing some writing going to a heavier grit and rust blueing could be a better option.

The benefit of the slow rust process is it's cheap, simple, relatively non toxic (pretty much just don't eat it), it is exceedingly though and rust resistant (particularly after a 24hour heated oil bath, although I find just warming the parts and applying a good quality oil works fine) then wiping off.I think I'm going to have to setup to do rust blueing, even though I may or may not use it for these two pistols, due to the fact I'm wanting a high gloss on them. But would be perfect for that .22 rifle.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

The pilkington solution is generally well liked and here is a homemade solution you might try:It supposedly duplicates A.O.Niedner's recipe.
2.5 oz. Nitric acid
2.0 oz. Hydrochloric acid
1.0 oz. iron nails
30.0 oz. distilled water

I prefer making my own, but the epa liberal regulation stuff has made getting all these various chemicals somewhat expensive in most cases, unless the formula is pretty simple. Shipping can just kill you and the area I live in just doesn't have such things in stores much that I can find. Have gotten too many blank looks from clerks over the years.

[rattletrap1970]

Well, that particular frame needed work because it was gouged up and some yo-yo drilled 10 holes in the dust over to mouse a scope mount to it. (Drilled the holes by hand ). So, I had to tig weld the holesDid you end up having color variation where the tig welds were? I'm curious because in the past, I've run into frames and such we've had to draw file, but none with holes bad enough to need a weld, so I'm curious with the blueing if there was a color difference. I don't currently own a tig welder, but I have access to one and the pistol I'm refinishing has some fairly deep rock gouges in it. Appears to have been dropped in a concrete parking lot, so it'll take a good bit of draw filing to get the dings out.

>>The color difference is very-very minimal. I’d imagine that the alloy used for the Tig-weld could end up a different color. You’d be best served to do some research and find out what alloy the gun is, then match as closely as possible your fill wire.<<

then sand the frame down on wet/dry sandpaper that I spray adhesived to a granite block (for flatness).
Don't have a granite block, but I do have floor tiles I used to use to sharpen my wood plane blades with. They should work for that.

>>Anything flat will work, the flatter the better.<<

Finished it all up with 320 grit wet. The frame isn't flat black, I'd say just shy of a gloss. Fooled me, probably due to the angle, so a semi gloss, which looks real nice. Pics on the net can be tricky, due to monitor variation, camera, etc.

>>Yes, and photographing black is a mother.<<

The process has a way or "evening out" so if you grit blasted with say 180 to 240 aluminum oxide I'd say you'd end up with a satin finish. That would look real nice on the .22 rifle I'm redoing for my son in law. I've been working on coming up with a cheap park tank to park it, but it's not went as well as I'd like, mostly due to the cheap heating elements made in china and now either 100% stainless or with crappy chrome coating. Sounds like this may be the way to go, as even bead blasting hasn't taken out a lot of the pitting on the outside of the barrel, so losing some writing going to a heavier grit and rust blueing could be a better option.

>>I have a park tank made out of 1/8” stainless that a friend welded up for me. I also do my boiling for rust bluing in that tank (I just wash it out well). I find for heavily pitted things that cannot be fully buffed out, I clean them up as best as I can, then grit blast, then Zinc Parkerize (I like the greenish grey look). I just did a .22 over stained the stock ebony (almost black) and Zinc parked the metal. Looks pretty bad As$<<

[Whiterabbit]

I personally like the Mark Lee Express rust blue. You need something to boil the parts in and you can clean steel wool with acetone and card with that. It does a good job and it only takes a few hours and requires minimal equipment and, it does a good job. I don't think there is anything better to do a few guns.


I use Mark Lee Express and I could not be happier with the ease or use, durability or appearance.

Hi guys,

Can you describe in a smidge of detail about what kind of blue you get with this product? I have it in my Brownells shopping cart for my safari rifle barrel that's coming at the end of January. Seems to be a favorite, but not sure 100% what the finish is like, whether I can blue straight over the (cz550) action that is already blued, etc.

[rattletrap1970]

I posted pictures

[Whiterabbit]

is that blued over existing blue? or did you strip off old bluing after repairing the holes?

[rattletrap1970]

Completely stripped to the metal

[Whiterabbit]

what's your preferred chemical to do that?

[rattletrap1970]

I like Mark Lee Express blue. I've used pilkingtons and another. But I like mark lee.

[David2011]

Whiterabbit,

There are several products for removing bluing but swimming pool muriatic acid will strip the bluing effortlessly. Apply all safety and ventilation precautions. The vapors are pretty noxious. The finish will appear very dull but it polishes back very easily.

David

[Whiterabbit]

well I have two gallons of THAT laying around from making circuit boards. That'll work nicely. Thank you. now that I think about it, you couldn't ask for a better copper solvent when mixed with hydrogen peroxide. Not sure if that's OKfor bare steel, but it'll dissolve copper quickly...

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Did a little googling and found sodium nitrate is a good substitute for ammonium nitrate in the simple bluing formula. Picked both the 5 pounds of 100% Lye and a four pound 16% sodium nitrate at Ace Hardware today. Ordered a enamel coated steel pot to avoid potential stainless contamination from Amazon, should be here Wednesday of next week. Using my turkey fryer smelter as the heat source for the bluing pot and some cast iron burners for the degreaser and hot water pots.

Going to take some "before" pics of this dinged up 1911 and then post those with some "after" pics when I'm done. Gotta pull the pistol down and start working on it this weekend. Notified my son in law to bring by his revolver when he comes by to eat dinner with his mother on his birthday.

Gonna be busy working on these firearms to get them done by Christmas.

[Whiterabbit]

Whiterabbit,

There are several products for removing bluing but swimming pool muriatic acid will strip the bluing effortlessly. Apply all safety and ventilation precautions. The vapors are pretty noxious. The finish will appear very dull but it polishes back very easily.

David

tried this today on a barrel stub. WOW is all I can say. You weren't kidding! Perfect chemical to use.

[leftiye]

I just gotta say this.... I just refinished (was tempted to say restore, there was so much rust & carp) a Remington model 25. I polished it to a fine shine (I mean polished). Blued it with Oxpho-Blue, I'm speechless. Good nuff! I know, it wears more easily than "real" blues, but I can put more on. Several of my guns (that are eye catchers) are Oxpho-Blued.

[Old Caster]

I reblued a Stevens double barrel in about 1956 with Herters Belgian blue and it still looks good today. I blued someone's Colt 1911 recently that had a sight silver soldered on the slide which of course ruined the blue job pretty far back. The top was a dull blue and the side was very shiny. I sanded the top in a circular motion with 400 grit and finished the sides with paint buffing compound until it was quite shiny. I only expected to make it kind of acceptable or maybe just better than it was, but the finished product to my surprise was almost perfect. It took a careful look when the gun was perfectly clean to see the difference. The bluing I used that time was Belgian Blue that I think I bought from Brownells which I would guess was the same formula. It was I think $35 for a container a few years ago. I could do a dozen guns with the amount. It was simple like said above, just put in boiling water, lift out apply hot product immediately while it is still hot, and card off with fine steel wool. A pistol could be done on a regular stove. My shotgun was done in a gutter with the ends bent up on an old gas stove with two burners side by side. I think the finish look depends on how the metal is prepared but if you don't like the way it is turning out, do it again until happy.

[MtGun44]

Naval jelly will instantly strip bluing and is harmless to skin.

Bill