An Imposter Amongst Us?

[Guy La Pourque]

I have heard stories of 'rebranding' where, for example a guy discovers that WD40 works well at removing moisture from gun metal so he just changes the label on the can and calls it a 'gun solvent'. (Perhaps that is a poor example but you get the idea?)

So it is that I am looking at some common bullet lubes and they bear a striking resemblance to bolt lubes used by iron workers to tighten up the rusty bolts.

If my suspicions are correct there is nothing inherently wrong with rebranding...but it WOULD tick me off to discover that I am paying twice the price for a product sold as 'bullet lube' when I can buy it much cheaper as 'bolt lube'.

Is this even an issue? I am gearing up to cast my first BPCR boolits...how much of this stuff does a guy go through?

[dbosman]

It's possible.
A lot of nifty items for many hobbies are simply re-packaged materials. Generally from a really large container to a much smaller individual user size container. MDSS forms are a great source of information. Some companies pay for researchers to scour obscure trade journals looking for novel uses and side effects of industrial chemicals.

A fairly common medical equipment sterilizing chemical at ~$20. a gallon is sold to the aquarium trade at ~$12. a pint.

[geargnasher]

:mrgreen: Some look like saw blade lube. Some look like lip balm. Some look like, smell like, and in fact ARE rebottled rustproofer. Try your "bolt lube" on boolits if you think you're getting ripped off, it just might work! After you have fun with that, come back here and we'll help you find some genu-ine, non-reboxed, purpose-made, time-proven, inexpensive, name-brand boolit lubes. Of course some of the ingredients may in fact be a product of a company with a multi-million-dollar lube R&D budget that is sort of "borrowed" because it happens to work very well in a cottage-industrialist's boolit grease mix and only costs a little compared to what it would if he/she'd done the tribology themselves from scratch. We can also teach you how to make your own from scratch so you KNOW it isn't being sold somewhere else under a different name for twice the price (if that makes ya feel better). Be warned though, you might have to use some things sold for other purposes like Lansinoh Nipple Cream, Ivory soap, two-cycle engine oil, canning paraffin, Crisco vegetable shortening, Soy candle wax flakes, Turtle Wax, Johnson's Paste Wax for furniture, automatic transmission oil, Vaseline, automotive/industrial chassis grease, and maybe even the stuff bees use to make their houses, pantries, and nurseries. Or heaven forbid someone might recommend you coat your boolits thermoset paint that was intended for refrigerators.

Maybe you'd better just paper-patch, but be careful, a lot of that stuff is sold under the guise of stationary, but at least it's cheaper than the material sold by some companies for the purpose of wrapping boolits. :kidding:

Gear

[Garyshome]

All right already, that's enough!

[MBTcustom]

:mrgreen: Some look like saw blade lube. Some look like lip balm. Some look like, smell like, and in fact ARE rebottled rustproofer. Try your "bolt lube" on boolits if you think you're getting ripped off, it just might work! After you have fun with that, come back here and we'll help you find some genu-ine, non-reboxed, purpose-made, time-proven, inexpensive, name-brand boolit lubes. Of course some of the ingredients may in fact be a product of a company with a multi-million-dollar lube R&D budget that is sort of "borrowed" because it happens to work very well in a cottage-industrialist's boolit grease mix and only costs a little compared to what it would if he/she'd done the tribology themselves from scratch. We can also teach you how to make your own from scratch so you KNOW it isn't being sold somewhere else under a different name for twice the price (if that makes ya feel better). Be warned though, you might have to use some things sold for other purposes like Lansinoh Nipple Cream, Ivory soap, two-cycle engine oil, canning paraffin, Crisco vegetable shortening, Soy candle wax flakes, Turtle Wax, Johnson's Paste Wax for furniture, automatic transmission oil, Vaseline, automotive/industrial chassis grease, and maybe even the stuff bees use to make their houses, pantries, and nurseries. Or heaven forbid someone might recommend you coat your boolits thermoset paint that was intended for refrigerators.

Maybe you'd better just paper-patch, but be careful, a lot of that stuff is sold under the guise of stationary, but at least it's cheaper than the material sold by some companies for the purpose of wrapping boolits. :kidding:

Gear

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Say it isn't so!

[geargnasher]

Sorry to bust yer bubble, Goodsteel ;)

BTW, wanna split the cost of a 55-gallon drum of Lubrizol 606-F (AHEM!!! Lee Liquid Alox) for $3,500.00? I only need a couple ounces of the stuff to last me for the next fifty years but I don't want to shell out $4 for it just to get that nifty squeeze bottle Lee puts it in.

Seriously though, Guy, do a little research on black powder cartridge lubes and you'll find that usually, (not always), natural, non-petroleum ingredients work best for that, and that much of the time you'd be best served making your own, especially if you plan to pan-lube your boolits 'cuz it takes a lot of it to cover those long babies up to the top groove. Big, black-powder boolits soak up a lot of lube and need to to keep the fouling soft so you do more shooting and less cleaning between shots, and even if you use a lube-sizer machine of some sort you'll go through a typical 5" hollow stick (1.5 ounce or so) every 200-300 boolits. Pan lubing needs about a pound give or take of lube to get started, and you keep adding to that as you need to. You can make very, very good, proven, accurate, pleasant-smelling, BPCR lube with inexpensive, widely-available ingredients and little fuss such as Buck Emmert's lube or Pearl Lube. Pan lube or melt and pour it in your lube/sizer machine's reservoir, whichever you like. If you're interested in casting your own, making lube for them is a natural extension of the satisfaction of "yeah, I made that myself, I understand how it works, and can make more or alter it as I see fit".

Gear

[waksupi]

Has went on forever. Ever seen a CO2 discharger, for clearing a dry balled muzzle loader? Around $23. Go to a bicycle shop, buy the same thing for $12.

[clodhopper]

I put a 58 cent compression fitting nut on an AR barrel instead ot a $12 plus shipping thread protector.
A piece of plastic pipe would have protected those threads pretty good too!
Then to keep this thread on track, I used bullet lube from The Bullshop on the boolits.

[Guy La Pourque]

Thanks for that, Gear.

I use home made lubes in my muzzle loaders and I am not surprised that you can do the same for BPCR. (I am brand new to this BPCR thing, so yanking my chain is like shooting fish in a bucket!:))

Any quick links to the home made recipes? What is your favourite?

[Guy La Pourque]

Belay that! I see a trip through the stickies is in order...!

[leftiye]

(You COULD read the ultimate loob thread. Heh, heh) Only if you've got a spare week laying around.:kidding:

[country gent]

Ive been told by several electrician who are also shooters the Lee sizingg die wax is wire pull lubricant also.
I have used the emmerts improved most of last summer with good results. 50% beeswax 40% crisco 5% canola or olive oil and 5% anahydrous lanolin. Yes the big black powder grease grooves take alot of lube. And when using a grease cookie under a paper patch its not any better.
Alot of the solvents lubes are repurposed but to buy in the industrial quanities is not feasable do to amount or cost.

[Dale in Louisiana]

From a different hobby, I once bought the 'official' synthetic grease for my bicycle, looked at it, went to my service van and picked up a tub of Mobilube. Identical. Bicycle stuff: $8/1.5 oz. Mobilube: $8/1 lb.

dale in Louisiana

[Dale in Louisiana]

While we're talking about re-purposing, many industrial spray solvents make excellent cleaners for guns. I like CRC Lectra Clean.

dale in Louisiana

[Beagle333]

Has went on forever. Ever seen a CO2 discharger, for clearing a dry balled muzzle loader? Around $23. Go to a bicycle shop, buy the same thing for $12.

Say it ain't so!!!!!....... (I paid $24 for mine at the LGS.):oops:

[RogerDat]

It's possible.
A lot of nifty items for many hobbies are simply re-packaged materials. Generally from a really large container to a much smaller individual user size container. MDSS forms are a great source of information. Some companies pay for researchers to scour obscure trade journals looking for novel uses and side effects of industrial chemicals.

A fairly common medical equipment sterilizing chemical at ~$20. a gallon is sold to the aquarium trade at ~$12. a pint.

An expensive fiberglass product that shines and protects (a thin liquid wax) cost $$$$ per pint. Someone read the MDSS on it and figured out is was same product as Zep wet look floor wax and ReddMax pro floor wax. Just diluted down to about 20% active ingredients. And the floor wax is about $10 a gallon at big box stores. A whole lot of old fiberglass boats and camper owners can now afford enough coats to make their classic look like new thanks to someone doing the research and being brave enough to give it a try. Then share the results.

[mdi]

Mostly not "rebranding" but "repurposing" I have used a spray on metal protector as bullet lube, Amasol. I have used a common, well known metal protector as bullet lube, alox/xlox. I have used boot protector/treatment as case lube, Mink Oil Boot Dressing. I have used mother's nipple cream as a lube ingredient. There are bazillions of items that have more than one purpose, and hundreds of items designed for other purposes are used in reloading/shooting. Now if I took my nipple cream out of it's original container and called it something else, well mebbe that's rebranding, mebbe not. But if I took nipple cream and put it in a new container and labeled it "Mike's Nipple Cream" then that is definitely rebranding...

An aside; The fish tank post reminded me of when I was really poor I could go to the pet store and buy Penicillin when I was sick and couldn't afford a doctor. There were other medicines for animals that worked on humans pretty well. In the ghetto, the pet store's clerks knew how to determine dosage for human consumption, but no body ever mentioned using the meds for humans...

[geargnasher]

Ive been told by several electrician who are also shooters the Lee sizingg die wax is wire pull lubricant also.
I have used the Emmerts Improved most of last summer with good results. 50% beeswax 40% crisco 5% canola or olive oil and 5% anahydrous lanolin. Yes the big black powder grease grooves take alot of lube. And when using a grease cookie under a paper patch its not any better.
Alot of the solvents lubes are repurposed but to buy in the industrial quanities is not feasable do to amount or cost.

Modded Emmerts is my favorite. I only dabble in BP occasionally, but that stuff can be made thin for patch lube, stiff for cylinder grease or grease grooves, and even a touch stiffer for cookies, and it really does the trick for everything. The lanolin adds to moisture content and film strength, important considerations for cartridge shooting.

Gear

[P.J.Plinkerton]

The lanolin adds to moisture content and film strength, important considerations for cartridge shooting.

Gear

Ah-ha, I was wondering what the lanolin contributed. I was starting to think everyone was concerned about soft hands. :roll:
Thanks again Gear.

P.J.

[Multigunner]

Ballistol has many uses, but these are listed on the labels.
I was surprised to find it is used to clean meat cutting machinery in restaurants .

[leadman]

Lee case lube is one of the variants of Lubriplate. Used to use it on the crank bearings when I worked as a diesel mechanic. One of the techs told me that it is used for drawing brass castridge cases. It thins with water so has alot of uses.

[nanuk]

BTW, wanna split the cost of a 55-gallon drum of Lubrizol 606-F (AHEM!!! Lee Liquid Alox) for $3,500.00?
Gear


I think WLL and DragonLubes sells it cheaper than that.

perhaps you can "Repurpose" the lube for your shop application?

[birch]

The worst example of this I can think of is "Barricade" by Birchwood Casey. I have sprayed both the barricade and Raid bug spray on two paperplates, and there is absolutly zero difference in the smell. I would place a bet that birchwood buys the base from the raid company before the insecticide is put into it.

[dbosman]

I think you're smelling propane, isobutane and petroleum distillates. Common to a lot of aerosols.

Here is the MSD sheet for BARRICADE® RUST PREVENTIVE AEROSOL
http://sport.birchwoodcasey.com/files/MSDS/33126_33135_33140_33389_BarricadeSheathRustPrevent iveAerosol_2010.pdf

Here are all the MSDS s for Raid brand products.
http://www.scjohnson.ca/en/scj_msds.aspx

Curiously, the ant nest liquid killer is honey, sucrose, and Borax.
Pure Borax is also used in a lot of cockroach killer compounds.

[runfiverun]

borax is also used as a laundry detergent helper,
and as a fluxing agent for lead alloys.
it works pretty good on snake skins too,,, if you wanna maake a hat band from one.

[eljefeoz]

If you want to get rid of cockroaches- add borax to flour,a dash of water and make balls.throw the around the obvious places and atleast a couple of generation of roaches will go belly up.FWIW

[DRNurse1]

That was a crazy segue: loob ingredients to cockroach annihilating bombs!

[seaboltm]

I think most gun oils are hype. I mean seriously, are there any dedicated gun oil factories? I doubt it. I have found that Mobil 1 0w-20 or 5w-20 makes an excellent gun oil, and a quart will last you a lifetime. sprinkle in some ptfe powder and it would be hard to see how such a blend would be much different than Break Free.

[Dale in Louisiana]

I think most gun oils are hype. I mean seriously, are there any dedicated gun oil factories? I doubt it. I have found that Mobil 1 0w-20 or 5w-20 makes an excellent gun oil, and a quart will last you a lifetime. sprinkle in some ptfe powder and it would be hard to see how such a blend would be much different than Break Free.

Bingo!

I use Dexron ATF, etc. ,in the form of Ed's Red.

dale in Louisiana

[Wolfer]

Once while rubbing some wound salve on one of my horses I thought( if this stuff was a little thicker I could use it for boolit lube ) On reading the ingredients it was basicly lanolin and beeswax. I mix it about 50/50 and have used it ever since.
I can't recall the name of it right now but it comes in a yellow tube and can be found in most feed stores around here. Woody

[Crash_Corrigan]

I add Lanolin to my Ed's Red mixture for a longer lasting protection for the bores of my favorite long guns. It also works great on my handguns as well. Which reminds me that it is time to mix up a new batch as the last one I mixed in '95 is about gone. One gallon of mineral spirits, 4 qts of automatic transmission fluid, a gallon of Acetone, a pint of Lanolin and a gallon of something which I disremember at this time makes up into a mite more than 4 gallons of outstanding cleaning solvent for all my sporting gear cleaning uses. It works great on my Mitchell fresh and salt water fishing reels.

[dbosman]

From Ed, himself.
http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=9

CONTENTS: Ed's Red Bore Cleaner
1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.
1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1
1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS
#64741-49-9, or may substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or
equivalent, (aka "Varsol")
1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.
(Optional up to 1 lb. of Lanolin, Anhydrous, USP per gallon, OK to
substitute Lanolin, Modified, Topical Lubricant, from the drug store)

[dikman]

Some leave out the acetone in Ed's Red as it can be a bit nasty on stock finishes (I did).

I love looking up the MSDS for many of these products. Occasionally some don't list the ingredients, but a search on the 'net will usually find that someone has found out what's in them. As surmised, many of them contain similar ingredients, sometimes under a slightly different name, but with the price bumped up because they are now "specialised" gun care products.

You would think that WD-40 is the same the world over, but it isn't. Different countries have slightly different base ingredients (the CAS used in the USA is different to that used in Australia, for instance). The good thing is that once you understand all this you can find similar products, that do the same job, and cost less.

Or make your own.

[randyrat]

If you want to get rid of cockroaches- add borax to flour,a dash of water and make balls.throw the around the obvious places and atleast a couple of generation of roaches will go belly up.FWIW
Borax will kill most insects if used very lightly as a dust...don't forget it will also kill anything green, like plants, grass, turf...Along with killing it is less toxic than table salt to people. I ain't gonna eat it though.
Back to the thread.All my stuff that I sell is Natural to the earth, it came from the earth, 100% natural. It's been tinkered with but 100% from the earth.....Thought I would toss that in for the MOON BATS How do ya like them beans.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I can think of two products that fit the criteria. Herters used to sell a cartridge case cleaner in a very small container for two dollars. You had to mix it with water before putting your tarnished cases in it to soak. I think it was nothing more that muriatic acid which you could buy at the time for about a buck a gallon at that time, maybe less. The second one was also a small container sold in auto parts stores that was supposed to prevent rust in your car radiator when you only used water as the engine coolant. It was nothing more than water soluble oil, which at the time was two bucks a gallon. I found out it had a down side. It built up large deposits of a brown crud in your radiator.

[MBTcustom]

Borax will kill most insects if used very lightly as a dust...don't forget it will also kill anything green, like plants, grass, turf...Along with killing it is less toxic than table salt to people. I ain't gonna eat it though.
Back to the thread.All my stuff that I sell is Natural to the earth, it came from the earth, 100% natural. It's been tinkered with but 100% from the earth.....Thought I would toss that in for the MOON BATS How do ya like them beans.

That's good to know Randy. I was wondering why you don't sell mars wax imported straight from the red planet itself. Now I know why.