Lee Enfield no.4 mk1/2

[neilking]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/26/y4e3u5ep.jpg

[JeffinNZ]

That'll clean up alright. New barrel and away you go.

[neilking]

Got one in your back pocket?

[higgins]

At least you don't have to guess why it was designated ZUF. The UK had so many designations for degrees of wear and damage that the question often comes up on forums as to what does this designation mean and what could cause the rifle to be so designated? Is it safe to shoot, etc?

[neilking]

I shot this rifle with no drama. But there was a piece of paper glued over the green paint on the butt stock. I didn't take that off till after. Now I'm scared to shoot it.

[JeffinNZ]

Got one in your back pocket?

Not as such but there are a few still around. Put a .30cal on it and chamber to .30-40 Krag.

[neilking]

Way beyond my capabilities my friend.

[Artful]

What do you see when you look down the barrel? Where is the bulge? And how bad?

[neilking]

Can't find a bulge.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/27/a5erequr.jpg

[Expat74]

Have you thought that the stock might have been replaced, and they'd put a piece of paper over it? I'd slug it and see if there is a change in resistance when pushing the slug through..

And.. wasn't there some guy who built a machine to find out if and where barrels were bulged.. ah, yes ..

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?219645-DIY-Slug-o-Tron-barrel-slugging-machine

[Multigunner]

Could be several rifles were set aside and Z marked, this one due to non repairable headspace problem, then when painting the rest of the marking they got this one mixed up with another in that batch that had a bulged barrel.
A star gauge or bore scope should spot an internal bulge.
With headspace of .079 (as you mentioned on the headspace thread) its not safe to fire.
You might get away with firing many rounds then one day a case head blows out and you lose an eye.
If no combination of bolt bodies and bolt heads can reduce headspace to .074 or less the rifle is ruined.

One thing you might check though is whether there's a visible gap between the internal shoulder of the receiver ring and the breech end of the barrel shank.
The No.4 rifles were torqued on the barrel shoulder and receiver ring interface. The SMLE was torqued at breech of barrel and internal shoulder.
If properly fitted each should touch at both positions but a small gap at receiver ring face was allowable for the SMLE so long as there was full contact and proper torque at the internal shoulder.
I've seen a few No.4 actions with gap at the internal shoulder but only one did not have reasonable headspace. That one example was downgraded to DP though otherwise in excellent condition, but no combination of known good bolt bodies and a NOS #3 bolt head could bring it into safe headspace specs.

I'd look for a rifle in good condition and strip the ZF rifle for parts.
You might clean up the wood and use it and the bands and such to restore a bubba'ed sporter .

[neilking]

I'm looking for a bolt head. The one that's on it is a #2 and measures .630

[rondog]

As many worn out old Enfields as there are in the world and as popular as they are, I can't believe nobody makes replacement barrels for them.

[JeffinNZ]

Maybe that's an idea for a group buy from the likes of Criterion (http://criterionbarrels.com/barrels). 100 SMLE barrels, 100 No4 barrels.

[Driver man]

Great Idea. Ill take one
Maybe that's an idea for a group buy from the likes of Criterion (http://criterionbarrels.com/barrels). 100 SMLE barrels, 100 No4 barrels.

[MtGun44]

I'd expect that you could get whatever setup price break there was down at a lower number
of barrels, like 20 or so. Does anyone have a legit military blueprint so that a maker didn't
have to spend a bunch of time trying to figure out what to make? I think if someone showed
up with a blueprint to a barrel maker and wanted 20 barrels "to print" they might get a pretty
darned good price. Make it easy on the guy if you want a good price.

Bill

[Thundermaker]

I had heard a rumor that Criterion will be offering No4 barrels. I shot them an e-mail. They confirmed it. They are still in development, so no release date yet. However, they probably have the dimensions.

[bwgdog]

I have spoken to them at Criterion - are in development-would not hurt to call them and show interest-Also checked on importing some from AU but end cost for a GOOD new made barrel with all the fees was close to $300-not likely to interest to many of the milsurp folks I know!

[Bullshop Junior]

To check for bulging, ive always just ran a tight patch on a rod down the barrel to see if there was anywhere that had less resistance.

[leadman]

I've done they same as Bullshop junior. I have a S&W 27-2 with a bulge in it and with the right load shoots less than an inch at 25 yards. This was my brother-in-laws gun I bought after he passed.
There are many dealers in surplus gun parts so if you check around you might be able to come up eith a barrel.
I imagine there is even a forum for them as they are popular guns.

[Bullshop Junior]

I had a 94 marlin 357 with a pretty good bulge half way down...you could see/feel it from outside the barrel. It shot great as long as the boolits were soft...hard boolits or j******d not so good.

[Multigunner]

The worst type of internal bulge is just in front of the throat.
These can be due to erosion rather than high pressure or bore obstruction.

When a bullet reaches the bulged area gas blowby super heats the bullet and when it reaches the un bulged areas the swollen and heated bullet can seize up and the core blow through leaving the jacket stuck in the bore.

Nearer the throat carbon and metal fouling can infiltrate the edges of thermal cracks causing the edges to rise, choking down bore size just in front of the chamber.
If both situations exist in the same barrel the problems are magnified.

If there's no deep cracking that could cause later problems lead lapping to produce a gentle tapering of the bore, and slick up the bore as well, can reduce the effects.

[robertbank]

[QUOTE=neilking;2495277]I shot this rifle with no drama. But there was a piece of paper glued over the green paint on the butt stock. I didn't take that off till after. Now I'm scared to shoot it.[/QUOTE

How did it shoot? How bad is the bulge? If it shoots ok and reasonably accurate it may be a case of no harm no foul. Head spacing may or may not be a problem. I would get it checked over by a gunsmith you trust and see what he says the go from there.

Take Care

Bob

[neilking]

Seemed to shoot fine. Thats been over 10 yrs ago. I remember shootin at a target at 100yd and being happy with the results. I must have put a box of shells through it cause I don't have a partial box laying around.

[robertbank]

So what has changed? Go shoot the gun and enjoy it.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

So what has changed? Go shoot the gun and enjoy it.

Take Care

Bob

Robert the man has stated the rifle has headspace of .079. Do you feel comfortable in telling him to continue shooting this rifle before rectifying excessive headspace?
.079 is excessive by British military standards, not just SAAMI standards.

As rough as the bore looks the headspace might well have still been within limits before he fired the rifle years ago, the headspace only becoming excessive after repeated pounding of the bolt by excessive pressures due to the condition of the bore.

[robertbank]

Who measured the headspace. As indicated earlier, have the gun checked by a `smith you trust. Replace the bolt head if it is out and go shoot. Your less sentence doesn`t make much sense to me. The picture of his bore indicates it might be rough but not blocked. The rifling looks pretty deep to me. I dont recall him saying anything about evidence of high pressure or any reference to .079`just the reference to bulged barrel. It might be it was Friday and the Armourer wanted to get off early so wrote bulged barrel on the gun and threw it in the surplus bin. Have the rifle checked out by a `smith. Lots of overworked LE /4`s floating around shooting reasonable accuracy. Lots of spare bolts to if you poke around as well.

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

The rifle was mentioned in the earlier "Bad Headspace" threads.

The main reason I posted this in this particular thread is because this guns head space is way out of spec at about .079.
The bore looked pretty rough to me, unless it hasn't been cleaned since the last time it was fired.
Rough bores increase chamber pressure, simple fact, and rough bores coupled with internal bulging can greatly increase chamber pressure.

At .079 if the cartridge rim was at maximum specs of .064 head gap would be .015. The thinner the rim and even milsurp ammo can have rims several thousandths under the maximum specification, the greater the head gap.

This rifle needs serious work before I would consider it safe.

Its not like no other rifles will ever be available and using this particular rifle is a matter of great urgency.

[neilking]

Don't see any evidence of a bulged barrel. Its just says it has one. I took it to a place. They checked it and didn't find a bulge but put a head space guage and said it was past the limit. I don't know how thick the gauge was. So I started researching. I made a crude guage out of a shell and spacer and it measured .079. The bolt wouldn't close all the way but it was close. I bought the gun 10-15 years ago and took it to the range 1 time. It seemed to shoot fine. It had a piece of paper over the stock where it says" bulged barrel". I threw it back in the closet. Raised kids till they left home. Got to thinkin about guns again and pulled it out of the closet maybe shoot it/resore it. Well first thing I need to do is pull this stupid piece of paper off. Lo and behold a nice message......

[neilking]

Most rims I measure seem to be in the .055 range. The bolt is fine I think the breach of the barrel is worn. The rifling looks pretty good up till the last 1/2" where it seems to be pretty worn. The bore is frosty. I have cleaned it a little but not scrubbed it. And no its not urgent. I've got other guns but this one is the project. My 91/30 looks like new already so its boaring.

[robertbank]

I wouldn`t worry about the frosty barrel to much. Most are from shooting mercury based primers during WW11. By the sounds of it you are good to go. Give the barrel a good scrubbing and you may find all is good. I know there are guys here who have shot cast boolits out of very rough barrels with excellent results. Just remember it is a military rifle designed to shoot people. If you can get it to shoot within 6 inches out to 100 yards using the issue sights you are doing well.

Take Care

Bob

Take Care

Bob

[303Guy]

If the last bit of the bore looks worse or worn then chop it off. You'll end up with barrel like mine which is cut off at the base of the bayonet lugs. Don't underestimate how accurately one can file a muzzle square using a set square as a guide. But only do that if it won't group well.

[gew98]

Problem solved.

[neilking]

Well im convinced I do not have a bulged barrel. I just recieved a different barrel that's in better shape but not sure if its worh the trouble to change it out.

[neilking]

An update if anyone is interested. Numbric had barrels a while back, looks like I got it in January 2014. They also had an action wrench and I ordered that as well. I tried and tried to find someone to do the swap out for me but didn't have any luck. So, back in the closet it went for 5 years. For some reason the other day I decided to make a barrel vice out of a block if aluminum and tackle removing the barrel myself. SUCCESS. Tight doesn't even describe it.
Last pic is of the old barrelhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/d7a34f1df8f00e291c7e04915127d1ec.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/a472b58f61dcd0e089bb2b728f3455a7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/4701e051749193e62c97e0d8c2faa6c2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/d7121b50bdc72584a6826fcfa43c413a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/af29519d19b007eb4281c9fd851a4d89.jpg

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[lrdg]

I had a 94 marlin 357 with a pretty good bulge half way down...you could see/feel it from outside the barrel. It shot great as long as the boolits were soft...hard boolits or j******d not so good.

Years ago I worked in a gun shop and took out to the desert a "Commando Carbine" in .45 ACP to shoot. It had seven bulges in the barrel you could see. Bullets still came out the end. Not sure how accurate but it wasn't built for accuracy. It was eventually sold. I often wondered if the new owner shot it that way or replaced the barrel.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Re-barreling is the best solution considering your headspace issue, because if your rifle is on a size #2 bolt head you're far less likely to find a #3 than a barrel (which I see you've already found). This will give you the opportunity to not only have a better bore, but to get the headspace back to a #0, and you should be good to go for many years.

[mto7464]

Well how did the re barrel go?

[neilking]

Find out when I shoot it, I guess.

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[neilking]

It went well. I need to take it to the range instead of out in the wild with a half *** target. I need to put on a shorter front sight as it was shooting low. But even with a .079 headspace there were no issues. I had read that .084 was allowable for battle conditions.


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[303Guy]

I'm thinking that the only problem with that headspace is what it does to the brass. I have had a rifle with way excess headspace and so what I did is my trick of lubing the loaded cases with case lube and loading to a moderate pressure and done. The case is able to progressively elongate rearward without stretching the web area and blowing the shoulder out to fit the chamber. This leaves a working clearance in the chamber allowing easy extraction and rechambering without sizing the cases.

Before I started doing that I was getting short case life but since doing that I haven't lost a single case to head separation. The cases fired in that chamber headspaced on the shoulder after that but even so, I continued with th lubing the cases, just very lightly, mostly with the objective of maintaining consistent case to chamber wall grip from an accuracy perspective and that rifle was accurate. In fact, all three of the Lee Enfields I do that with are pretty accurate. I also do that with my hornet that has a rough chamber which I load hot, never loses a case and shoots very accurately. Without the lube it will lose a case after two firings.

[samari46]

Next time you have to remove a trashed barrel and know someone with a lathe. Have them chuck the barrel end in the lathe. Take a cutoff tool and have them make a cut about 3/16" deep just in front of the receiver. The cut releases the metal's compression and usually a small pipe wrench is all that is needed to screw the barrel off. Frank

[rondog]

An update if anyone is interested. Numbric had barrels a while back, looks like I got it in January 2014. They also had an action wrench and I ordered that as well. I tried and tried to find someone to do the swap out for me but didn't have any luck. So, back in the closet it went for 5 years. For some reason the other day I decided to make a barrel vice out of a block if aluminum and tackle removing the barrel myself. SUCCESS. Tight doesn't even describe it.
Last pic is of the old barrelhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/d7a34f1df8f00e291c7e04915127d1ec.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/a472b58f61dcd0e089bb2b728f3455a7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/4701e051749193e62c97e0d8c2faa6c2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/d7121b50bdc72584a6826fcfa43c413a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/af29519d19b007eb4281c9fd851a4d89.jpg

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Did you check with BDL (Brian Dick Limited) about swapping out the barrel? I have an old SMLE and bought a new barrel from - I can't remember - and I've been planning on having BDL do the swap.

I have four Enfields, but honestly - with all these headspace/bolt head/worn out/brass destroying issues & such - I'm about half scared to shoot ANY of them. Last thing I wanna do is spend hundreds on each one just to make them safe to shoot. Ain't nobody local in Denver that works on Enfields that I know of, that means shipping then out, and $$$$

[neilking]

Next time you have to remove a trashed barrel and know someone with a lathe. Have them chuck the barrel end in the lathe. Take a cutoff tool and have them make a cut about 3/16" deep just in front of the receiver. The cut releases the metal's compression and usually a small pipe wrench is all that is needed to screw the barrel off. Frank Thought about doing this but I don't have a spider on the spindle of my lathe. I need to make one. I did turn down the shoulder on the replacement barrel so I could clock it correctly.

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