45 ACP lever gun? [Archive]

Artful

11-25-2013, 06:14 PM

Bob Snapp built one on a Marlin 1894 for C. E. Harris. It was written up in the July 1983 American Rifleman.
It was not an easy conversion but there were pictures of the modifications.
It started off with a Marlin .44 mag Model 1894. He goes into pretty good detail about how the conversion was done.
http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/fa46922694e70e9f97e81c4de57e1515-941.html

If you can find one the El Tigre was made in 45 ACP.
Its a 92 copy of the Winchester M92 that was made in the 1930's in Spain.

Larry Gibson

11-25-2013, 06:31 PM

The Argentine's also produced M92s under license from Winchesters in 45 ACP. Some were on the market many years ago.....should have got one but didn't.......:(

Larry Gibson

Artful

11-25-2013, 06:36 PM

Does anyone even make a bolt gun in 45acp??

Where have you been - out in the bush?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?215740-Show-Us-your-Rhinelander-45-ACP-Mauser-Conversions
http://www.troupsystems.com/mauser45kits.htm

http://www.specialinterestarms.com/index.php?page=nfa

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?125881-SMLE-No-4-mk1-45ACP-conversion

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?67686-45-ACP-in-a-long-gun-or-Destroyer-info

http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.html

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?212425-Ruger-77-Mark-II-in-45-ACP

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?183447-My-45-ACP-Arisaka-Action

starmac

11-25-2013, 06:55 PM

Artful I have never heard of a manufacturer making a lever one. I have heard of the conversions, and even looked at one that Bullshop had. There is a big difference of a factory rifle and a converted ooe. I think about anything imaginable has been converted. lol

I am learning though. I had never heard of the el tigre or the fact the m92's were produced. lol

Artful

11-25-2013, 07:37 PM

Starmac, How many does someone have to convert to become a factory?
The US Army Vietnam Era had a bunch of Destroyer Carbines converted to 45 ACP for special missions (suppressed).
SIA is doing conversions and has been for last several years on SMLE or #4's - no idea how many
Rhineland has had their kits out for several years but I don't remember them selling completed rifles.

Larry Gibson

11-25-2013, 07:39 PM

The US Army Vietnam Era had a bunch of Destroyer Carbines converted to 45 ACP for special missions (suppressed).

And from where do we get this information?

Larry Gibson

Artful

11-25-2013, 07:55 PM

Paulson's book

Pepe Ray

11-25-2013, 08:47 PM

Don't know about Paulson's book. I guess I shouldn't admit it. Shows my ignorance.
BUT!!
You've touched a nerve. Ever since that "Rifleman' artical came out (I clipped it of course), I've been chasing the .45ACP/LA dream. Scrimping, saving gathering information as I found it, acquireing baseic materials (a Marlin M94/.44mag) so a few comments must be made .
I challenge ANYONE to show me how a Winchester or Rossi M92 can be made economically to feed rimless cartridges. OH yeah, I know a guy who knows a guy who says his uncle worked with a fellow ------ B.S.
I've made dummies that feed nicely in the Marlin, but I can't find ,as yet, a gunsmith within 100 miles who is willing to take the job. I swear if I had the machinery and work space I'd do it myself.

I've looked and tried to find a way to make it work in a Win/Rossi M92, cause I like them. A smith would need to charge $2000 plus seed stock and I'm still not convinced it will work.

But I've got the Marlin in hand and as many green backs as it will take. Still hunting.
Pepe Ray

338RemUltraMag

11-25-2013, 08:53 PM

Artful

11-25-2013, 10:04 PM

So Pepe Ray, have you contacted
Robert J. Snapp
6911 E. Washington
Clare, MI 48617
USA
989-386-9226

other specialist on leveractions
Steve Young
205 Antler Lane
Lampasas, TX 76550
(512) 564-1015
steve@stevesgunz.com

Local in Maine, hmm I'd try Jim at

Gunworks
1490 Main St #8
Harrington, ME 04643
207-483-2175
http://www.downeastgunworks.com/

Outpost75

11-25-2013, 10:11 PM

JHeath

11-25-2013, 10:20 PM

Why don't you try for the 45 auto rim? Or am I missing the point?

I think I know. He wants a companion rifle to a 1911, or some other .45.

There is a kind of "gap" in that you can get a rifle/revolver combo, but always a revolver. Unless you pair a .357 1892 with a Coonan .357.

If you want an auto pistol and a rifle to share ammo, it's not so easy. There's the Destroyer (if you can find one). But lever rifles are nice and flat. And auto pistols are nice and flat.

Try to find a rimless lever rifle, or a rimmed auto pistol. Very limited options, especially that make sense with pistol ammo. I guess you could convert a BLR to .45, or maybe an 1895, but would need a fat magazine spacer.

A good combo would be a 9x23 Tokarev conversion (very flat) with a 9x23 short action lever rifle. This approximates a .357, and you don't have to find/buy a Coonan. You just need to convert a lever rifle to rimless, ha ha ha. I have wondered how difficult that is. Maybe it's easy but posters above sound like they know a lot more about it than I.

smoked turkey

11-25-2013, 10:37 PM

I would suggest a Desert Eagle in 44 Mag to pair with a Marlin Lever in 44 Mag, but then the Desert Eagle is not all that small and flat. Ha. I know nothing about it, just wanted to throw my hat in the ring and to up my post count by +1.

Larry Gibson

11-25-2013, 11:37 PM

Paulson's book

Ok, which book....title?

Larry Gibson

jh45gun

11-26-2013, 12:08 AM

Why bother just shoot a 45 Colt. If you have a 1911 you want to carry get a cartridge belt or two slides and put 45 acp on one side and the Colt on the other.

Artful

11-26-2013, 12:24 AM

Ok, which book....title?

Larry Gibson

Orginal article in Small Arms Review, Vol 5, Issue 7, p. 114 by Al Paulson entitled "Silenced Destroyer Carbine"

it was incorperated in Volume 1 of 2 in set Silencer History and Performance, Sporting and Tactical Silencers
http://www.amazon.com/Silencer-Performance-Sporting-Tactical-Silencers/dp/0873649095

Outpost75

11-26-2013, 12:26 AM

My. 45 Colt Marlin would not group for sour apples because the chamber was way oversized.

.45 ACP is far more accurate than the same rifle in. 45 Colt ever was. I also happen to prefer the ACP cartridge for more plentiful brass, common ammo and more efficient case with less airspace.

OverMax

11-26-2013, 12:42 AM

Marlin once made a semi auto in 45-acp & 9-mm. Camp 9 or a Camp 45 I think they were called. Might find one of those around yet. Lever action. Nope.

357Mag

11-26-2013, 01:26 AM

Dave -

Howdy !

In theory:
An 1894 .45 Colt could have it's bolt face opened up from .512" to .516", and " .45 Auto Rim " could be shot in the re-barreled rifle. That'd be the same case capacity as a .45ACP .
* I'm not sure .45AR should be shot in a stock .45Colt chamber, as...... you'd be asking the base diam of " Auto Rim " brass to accept expansion on-the-order of .004".... upon firing. Use steel cases ? Hmmm....
But, I don't think the stock .45 Colt extractor & lifter would present any unusual problems.

Other:
A M-336 in .308 Marlin Express could also possibly be impressed into use ? That's more " out there ". The bolt face would need to be opened-up around .008". The stock extractor, might just work ok ?
The lifter would be problematic. On this one, you'd need a new ( .45 caliber ) barrel; fer sher.

Perhaps an old M-336 .35 Rem, could be impressed into service as a test " mule " ? The bolt face would need to be opened .020"... for potential use w/ 45 ACP ( if that's even do-able ) ?
If the " .45 GAP " case were to be utilized, the bolt face would only need to be opened .010"; or so. Perhaps a small tweak done to the extractor. Again, suitability of the lifter... would be a question.
And of course... a .45 calibre barrel is required.

-'06 and .308 family brass can always be cut-off, to " roll your own " " .45ACP " brass, and just run w/ a .470" rim diam.

With regards,
357Mag

Pepe Ray

11-26-2013, 01:38 AM

Outpost75 seems to have a tap on my line. But then, I would have predicted that.
Most others are like moths around a bright light.
1st, I prefer lever actions, short or long they are handy, (Ergonomically near perfect).
I've got your 45. Colt LA's. And 45-70's. They are all wonderfull. None are perfect nor will there EVER be a perfect shooter/companion. I wouldn't want there to be. Then we'd have nothing to seek. The 45AR is only another moth frustrating itself until it dies in the flame. I've got a S/W-625 to fit that part of the formular and it's wonderful but, I can find NO fault with the moon clips, full, 1/2, or 1/3. It's still wanting. I've had the marlin semi-auto. It was fun till I got tired chasing the brass 35-40 feet into the willy-wa's. Gone!! Not having any use for factory fodder I find the 45ACP more than adequate for my needs. No one hasyet mentioned the Mec-Tek upper assembly for the 1911 frame. So far it's the cat's pajamas. But it is a little heavy and awkward. Great for a young man with the attributes of youth. It cant come close to a Trapper model L/A. BTW, the Snapp rendition made for Harris was only the first of 3 made for Ed, the last I talked with him. Don't know why he needed 3 of them. He seems to be satisfied with the results. I've bugged him enough but could never get a negative response/evaluation.

I've pondered the issue but the only issue I can imagine to diswade smiths from the project is there fear of liability should I load up with factory hardball and set of a chain reaction. Oh well--Smoke dreams.
Not sure if I've covered all the issues brought up so I'll keep watch,
Thanks for sharing.
Pepe Ray

Pepe Ray

11-26-2013, 01:58 AM

I don't know why folks keep suggesting alternative cartridges/chamberings.
I want the 45ACP.
I can't understand why Ed Harris can commission 3 of them and I can't find a smith willing to negotiate a project with me.
And , yes, I talked with Bob Snapp, long distance. He was very polite, seemed to be delighted that I could reintroduce the subject to him, and seguaed into "let me think about it". I understand, he's got to be older than I am by several years which takes him out of the labor force.
Pepe Ray

Spell check doesn't seem to be working.

robertbank

11-26-2013, 02:04 AM

Well you could always get a Beretta Storm in .45acp and run a 1911 with it or The Storm in 9MM and match it up with any 9MM pistol you chose. I have the latter. The Storm is as handy as a lever gun and in your land comes with a high cap magazine. Sweet little combo if you are just interested in the .45acp combo.

Take Care

Bob

Pepe Ray

11-26-2013, 02:14 AM

gandydancer

11-26-2013, 02:20 AM

I have seen one. back in the early 70's in Cubeta's gun shop on east main st in meridian CT. a model 92 Winchester in 45 acp mfg for the Mexican government/police. some distributor had a few neither my self or Al "shop owner" Had brains enough to get one for our self's. I was into big bore at the time. never seen another one.

robertbank

11-26-2013, 02:51 AM

Thanks Bob. That is a reasonable suggestion. But, isn't the Storm a semiauto? Dont they throw the emptys all over? Aren't the semi-autos load sensitive? Isn't the feeding of semi wad cutters or FRN boolets a problem?
Seriously, I will look into it. Never too old to learn, eh?
Pepe Ray

Yes unfortunately it is but they are shooters and would be a viable substitute. I love my Levers but there is a place for a handy semi in a pistol caliber. The trigger on the Storms is mushy , crappy and cant really be made much better but once you get the hang of it the gun can work quite well. You won`t win any bullseye matches with it but out to 50 -100 yards I wouldn`t let you plink away at me either.

Take Care

Bob

Piedmont

11-26-2013, 03:45 AM

I had a Marlin 1894 Cowboy in. 45 Colt which John Taylor converted to. 45 ACP for me. He cut off the. 45 LC chamber, set back and rechambered the barrel, shortened the magazine tube and reworked the lifter. It was a fairly straight-forward job. It shoots 2" five-shot groups at 50-yards using iron sights and firing H&G68 with 4.5 to 5.0 grains of Bullseye, and feeds any standard. 45 ACP load which feeds in an M1911 pistol.

I have messed around to various degrees with three .44 Mag. leveractions and two .357s and every one of them would outshoot your custom .45 ACP. Do you have any idea why that might be? The .45 ACP is supposed to be an accurate cartridge. Are the bullets so light that they are already fading in grouping ability at the 50 yard line?

Char-Gar

11-26-2013, 08:37 AM

garym1a2

11-26-2013, 08:50 AM

I would look into how the 35 Remington does the rimless round.

Don't know about Paulson's book. I guess I shouldn't admit it. Shows my ignorance.
BUT!!
You've touched a nerve. Ever since that "Rifleman' artical came out (I clipped it of course), I've been chasing the .45ACP/LA dream. Scrimping, saving gathering information as I found it, acquireing baseic materials (a Marlin M94/.44mag) so a few comments must be made .
I challenge ANYONE to show me how a Winchester or Rossi M92 can be made economically to feed rimless cartridges. OH yeah, I know a guy who knows a guy who says his uncle worked with a fellow ------ B.S.
I've made dummies that feed nicely in the Marlin, but I can't find ,as yet, a gunsmith within 100 miles who is willing to take the job. I swear if I had the machinery and work space I'd do it myself.

I've looked and tried to find a way to make it work in a Win/Rossi M92, cause I like them. A smith would need to charge $2000 plus seed stock and I'm still not convinced it will work.

But I've got the Marlin in hand and as many green backs as it will take. Still hunting.
Pepe Ray

Char-Gar

11-26-2013, 11:05 AM

John Taylor is a member of this board. Check with him.

45 2.1

11-26-2013, 11:26 AM

The .45 ACP is supposed to be an accurate cartridge. Are the bullets so light that they are already fading in grouping ability at the 50 yard line?

No, they do not. Having shot various 45 ACP rifles/carbines, they do well out to 200 yards with the cruder iron sights on some and go past 300 yards with reasonable accuracy with scoped versions.

Outpost75

11-26-2013, 01:03 PM

My converted .45 ACP Marlin shoots the same ammo at 50 yards about as well for 5-shot groups as would be expected from the standard industrial test barrel firing 10-shot groups. This is about as good as can be realistically expected from a functional chamber and viable field carry gun using iron sights. Match grade hardball is expected shoot 3" ten-shot groups from a test barrel, good wadcutters should go 2" or under. In extensive testing done at NRA back in the 1960s. it was difficult to get better accuracy than that using home cast bullets in .38 Special or .45 ACP target loads.

My very best .45 loads product 5-shot groups at 50 yards of 1-1/2" occasionally, but will not do so as a long-term average, taking 50 or more consecutive shots without discarding any data. Using match-grade white box .45 ACP hardball in a suppressed bolt action we were happy to get 6" ten-shot groups at 100 yards or to keep all hits in the torso of an F silhouette at 200, firing a suppressed boltgun off sandbags. This is reality.

Your .357 Magnum or .44 with refined loads should do a bit better. My best .357 Magnum loads will average 2-1/2" to 3" 5-shot groups at 100 yards firing the Marlin off sandbags with 4X hunting scope. It is tempting to remember only the best groups fired in a series and to ignore fliers which are part of the long-run dispersion due to random variations of chance. Try firing 20 or more consecutive shots on one backer. Measure the x,y coordinates of each shot, then calculate the center of impact of the group. Then measure the vertical, horizontal and radial distance of each shot from the center of impact. If the dispersion is "circular normal," the vertical, horizontal and radial standard deviations are approximately equal. A 20-shot composite of 1 mil (about 3.6" at 100 yards) radial standard deviation is a common standard for "linked pack" 7.62mm ammunition. If your loads manage 1/2 mil or less RSd you are meeting accuracy requirements for rifle "clipped pack" and are doing well.

Larry Gibson

11-26-2013, 03:21 PM

88664As I mentioned earlier the Argentines made M92s in 45 ACP as companion firearms to the M1911s, Ballister Molinas and M1917 S&Ws in 45 ACP they used. Some were imported back in the '80s and I saw one at the Portland, Ore gunshow. Very nicely made but the going price was a little stiff back then so I passed. Now I wished I hadn't. They were not "conversions" but were made as 45 ACPs. I have not seen one for sale since. If you want a 45 ACP rifle but don't want the expense of a lever gun conversion or want to chase brass with the semi- auto you might consider a Rhinelander bolt action conversion. Mine is on a M98 action and I've done 2 others now plus one on a M93 action and one on a SMLE action. I would suggest the SMLE as the easiest and probably the best conversion. I would not do another M93 conversion but now that I understand the M98 conversion it isn't difficult. My M98 feeds very well now but is magazine sensitive as to feeding.

A good 45 ACP rifle is certainly a lot of fun and even useful. Mine shoots very accurately with a lot of bullets. I have shot numerous 10 shot groups at 50 yards of very close to 1" with 185 and 200 gr XTPs. Those run 2.5" or so at 100 yards. Cast bullets also will shoot very well with my generic 45 ACP load of 5 gr Bullseye under the Lee 190 SWC running a consistent 2.5" or less at 50 yards. The rifle makes a great companion firearm to my M1911s, my Uberti SAA with 45 ACP cylinder and even to my 10" Contender 45 ACP barrel.

Larry Gibson

Outpost75

11-26-2013, 04:49 PM

For current project John Taylor has in the que for me we're using one of these:

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/barrelblanksround/175-round-rifle-barrel-blanks/45-acp-heavy-raw-blank,-175-x-125-4140,-116

btroj

11-26-2013, 05:22 PM

I am sure that with the right amount of money someone can hook you up with a 45 ACP levergun.

How much is it worth?

Larry Gibson

11-26-2013, 10:42 PM

Very nice.
What do you use for the 45 barrel?

Not sure who made the barrel as it was included in the Rhinelander kit. It also has a 16" twist.

Larry Gibson

Love Life

11-27-2013, 01:59 AM

I'd love a 16.5-18 inch barreled lever action in 45 acp.

Pepe Ray

11-27-2013, 02:52 AM

Well, I've certainly been educated.
All I need to do is alter the stamping on my M92 Rossi .45 (L)atin(C)aliber to .45ACP and stuff a .45ACP cartridge into the chamber and my dreams will be realized.

Mr Gibson, I am very dissapointed.
Pepe Ray

Larry Gibson

11-27-2013, 09:01 AM

Mr Gibson, I am very dissapointed.

About?

Larry Gibson

KCSO

11-27-2013, 10:31 AM

The only problem with 45 acp in a rifle is that you dont get the velocity jump like you can with slower burning powders in the 45 Colt. The Colt has a ballistic advantage here. The why may be related to the number of semi auto 45 acp carbines offered and who is buying them.

bob208

11-27-2013, 10:34 AM

about 62 guns and ammo ad an add for the 92 copies in .45 a.c.p. they were called el tigre. and were made in south America. a long time to remember but I think it was Klein's that had them. now and then one will show up.

Larry Gibson

11-27-2013, 01:05 PM

In the 16.5" barrel on my M98 45 ACP the velocity gains for standard 45 ACP loads is about 150 fps which puts them all, including GI Hardball up into +p velocities (M1911) in the 1000 - 1100 fps range. +P ammo runs a consistent 225+ fps gain up into the 1225+ fps range. That is very, very consistent with gains made by standard 45 Colt loads when fired in my 20" Uberti M1873. If I want to take the 45 ACP to a higher level for the M98 I can load GC'd 452490s at 245 gr over Blue Dot or 'Lilgun and push up into the 1300 - 1400 fps range. Considering that is 44 Magnum range (handgun) the little rifle should be very adequate for deer, pigs or even b bears over bait.....at least I'd say so........

However, even though I could hunt with the M98 rifle it probably won't see much more hunting action that jack rabbits or a dumb coyote as I built it for "fun" shooting.....and fun it is.....I imagine one could go through a lot of 45 ACP ammo with a M92 lever action also:bigsmyl2:

Larry Gibson

Gunslinger1911

11-27-2013, 01:53 PM

Pepe Ray - I'm gonna keep an eye on this, I too would love to have a 45 acp lever action.

I've run into the debate many times - "Why do you want xxxxxxxxxx - dosn't make sense, not efficient, not good for xxxxx".

I want it cause I want it ! lol
Heck, I took a $125 used Blackhawk, put about 25,000 rounds thru it, then spent $600 for Gary Reeder to convert it to 5 shot 50 AE. Why? Because !

Outpost75

11-27-2013, 02:58 PM

Typical velocities I get in my converted Marlin 1894 in .45 ACP

H&G68, 4.5 grs. Bullseye, from 5" M1911A1 821 fps, from 22" Marlin 1000 fps.
H&G68, 5.0 grs. Bullseye, from 5" M1911A1 892 fps, from 22" Marlin 1105 fps

Federal 45D 230-gr. JHP, from 5" M1911A1 830 fps, from 22" Marlin 932 fps
TW55 Ball 230-gr. FMJ, from 5" M1911A1 858 fps, from 22" Marlin 969 fps
Federal P45HST1 230-gr.+P from 5" M1911A1 942 fps, from 22" Marlin 1083 fps

I have not pursued heavier "rifle only" loads because I don't want to take a chance of a +P+ handload accidentally getting into any .45 ACP handgun I own other than the Ruger Convertible Blackhawk. If I need more energy than a .45 ACP handgun delivers, that's what I have a .44 Magnum for, duh!~

Pepe Ray

11-27-2013, 03:31 PM

Hi all;
Back at it again.
The O.P. was inquireing why someone wouldn't make a lever action in .45ACP.
Wouldn't or couldn't?

My guess is that they will not because of fear of liability should some dufus load up with factory hardball and have a magazine conflagration. I realize the stupidity of the thought but----.

To answer, could they? Of course they could. But I guarantee they won't be using the Model 92 Win. or Rossi to build on. The engineering, redesigning and labor costs would be unreasonable.
Although many of our posters have bought into the myth of the El Tigre in .45ACP, not one has claimed to have handled one on the fireing line.

I'm assuming that we can all agree that feeding from the magazine thru discharge would be required to qualify as the "real deal."

All those who gave so many suggestions for substitutes were well meaning but, There are NO substitutes for the .45ACP.

Artful: As to trying Jim (Green), his telephone is "out of service". His web site hasn't been tended since Sept. It's pretty tough doing business who won't allow a telephone call.

Outpost75: Congratulations on your Taylor conversion. This subject has come up several times over the years. Many before you came on board. I've always had more than $0.02 to say about it, declaring my interest. I would guess that Mr. Taylor has enough work that he doesn't need to drum up more from this pond. I believe Mr. Taylor did one of Ed Harris's IIRC.

Guess I'll quit now. I can feel the eyeballs starting to roll.

God bless all,
Pepe Ray

Outpost75

11-27-2013, 04:22 PM

Artful

11-27-2013, 05:32 PM

:roll: :violin:
Ya want something ya keep after it.
45 ACP bolt
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/th_SMLE45SIAConversion_zpsd36e4ef1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/SMLE45SIAConversion_zpsd36e4ef1.jpg.html)
7.62x39 Mauser with magazine feed
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/th_762x39MauserWASRconversion.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/762x39MauserWASRconversion.jpg.html)
Scout with suppressor in cheap to shoot 7.62x54R

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/Misc/th_0612112302.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/Misc/0612112302.jpg.html)
1969 trainer 22LR that takes suppressor

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/th_Romanian196922LR.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/Romanian196922LR.jpg.html)
Optic sited 45 ACP or 9mm carbine
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/383-Copy.jpg

robertbank

11-27-2013, 06:12 PM

Artful who did your #4 Conversion? It is a #4 not an SMLE.

Take Care

Bob

Multigunner

11-27-2013, 06:32 PM

Factories won't make it for fear of magazine detonations. Risk is very highly remote, but a freak sensitive primer, high primer in a handload or loose debris in magazine tube is sometbing they have no control over, so it isn't going to happen.

Only .45 ACP conversions of the Model 92 style lever actions I'd heard of till now used a M3 greasegun magazine instead of the tube mag and lifter.
I've seen photos of a Ruger .44 Magnum autoloader that had a chain fire when reloads using a pointed or round nose bullet were fired in it.
The rifle was in fragments.
One of the early military bolt action designs used an in the butt stock tube magazine, recoil of the .45-70 cartridge caused a few chain fires during field testing and one chain fired simply because the but was grounded to hard.

The Ruger 96/44 with box magazine would be a better starting point for a lever action .45 ACP. If the 92 or 94 Marlin must be used converting to the Ruger magazine might be possible. A 1911 magazine might be easier to use.

W.R.Buchanan

11-27-2013, 07:14 PM

I read this whole thread and I really don't see what the big problem is. A Marlin 1894 in .45 LC, and I'd prefer the Carbine with an nice Octagon barrel, seems like it could be converted pretty easily.

I see two ways to do the barrel /chamber mod and they would be the conventional method of cutting the chamber section off the barrel, Rethreading, and chambering to .45 ACP. keep in mind that Marlin barrels have a "tang" at the 12 o'clock position, that deflects the cartridge into the chamber and it has to be there or else the threads in the receiver will hang the round up. It is just a feature that has to be worked around in order to make this happen correctly.

The other method would be to plug the existing chamber by silver soldering a sleeve in it and then re-chambering to .45 ACP however this would leave a rather long throat in front of the chamber and probably affect accuracy, or not,,, who knows?

As far as the lifter is concerned a block in the rear would solve the length problem easily.

I think one of these guns with a 16 or 18" barrel would be a pretty neat companion gun for a 1911 or a M25/625 or Ruger SA convertible.

This is a conversion I think that maybe David Clay would be interested in, however I doubt you'll ever get ahold of him, but perhaps Wild West guns in Anchorage AK or now in Las Vegas NV could do the work. They specialize in Marlin rifle conversions, and the guy to talk to is Jim West and you can find his phone number just by Googling the business.

I see no reason this conversion wouldn't work perfectly. these actions are not smart enough to know the difference between a rimmed or rimless cartridge. The extractor might need some minor mods to work right but West would figure that out quickly.

Randy

robertbank

11-27-2013, 07:14 PM

Seems to me the best answer would be to limit yourself to RNFP bullets. The same issues arise with the .38/.357Mag and it seems to be an easy work around. For bear protection up here all I use is 200gr LSWC out of my .45-08 cases which reach the same velocities or slightly better as you would expect to get out of your carbine using the .45acp.

Come to think of it the .45acp carbine loaded with 45-08 cartridges would be one heck of combo and then match it to a 1911 with a 22lb spring.

Take Care

Bob

W.R.Buchanan

11-27-2013, 07:39 PM

I just spent 10 minutes talking to Jim West of Wild West Guns in Las Vegas and he said "yes anything can be done" however they are so backlogged that he wasn't interested in taking on the job.

His comment was that there would only be 10 people in the country that would be interested in the product and so the question of "Why do it in the first place," came up. I informed him of the Rhineland Mauser conversions which elicited a similar comment. He did not consider the ballistics of a 230 gr boolit at 1200 fps from a rifle being close to a .44 Magnum handgun. A .44 Special Handgun shooting a similar boolit at 1000-1200 fps is considered a formidable weapon and will and has, taken everything on this continent.

He doesn't get it! and there is nothing wrong with that. He is looking at from a business perspective. And I would have to agree, that from a business perspective this conversion makes absolutely no sense at all.

That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be cool. And I see just as many or more uses for a levergun carbine in .45 ACP as I see for my Kel-Tec Sub 2000 in .40 S&W. They are one of the most popular guns that Kel Tec makes.

Randy

We at Castboolits,,, constitute people of a somewhat higher level of interest in guns than the average puke out there, and as such,,, can see the benefits of these types of things.

However the average puke is not going to see the value in such a thing, let alone understand why someone would go to the lengths necessary to make it happen.

So the question "Why?" is valid for them. For us simply "because we want it," is a suitable answer.

I understand your pain, but I also know that all it would take to get it up and running is an article in Rifle magazine and you would see a real demand emerge. Tell me how many Police or Sheriffs in AZ, CO, WY etc. wouldn't want one to go with their 1911's that they carry everyday. This really is a no brainer that is just looking for a competent gunsmith to execute.

Randy

Other possible options for the work include

Brockman's and Grizzly Custom Guns

Both specialize in modifying Marlin rifles.

robertbank

11-27-2013, 08:25 PM

Randy my take is somewhat different. I can see why Jim said what he said. The answer lies in your Kel Tec comment. The young 39 and under crowd are growing up with 9MM Glocks, Stainless polymer stocked hunting rifles and AR's that are unbelievably accurate, relatively inexpensive and utterly utilitarian. Kel Tecs sell cuz they are semi autos shooting a popular pistol cartridge. The gun comes in 9MM as well and they likely outsell the .40cal.

We are talking about a lever gun shooting a handgun cartridge that is more and more declining in popularity. I am betting there are more Glocks sold in the US then all 1911's chambered in .45acp combined manufacture. Combine the Glock total to M&P's and XD's and well you get the picture. The round is expensive to shoot compared to 9MM. The 45LC and 39/.357 mag rifles got a boost when Cowboy action shooting took off and I suspect are the mainstay of that market. The overflow is taken up by guys like you and me. Now if Cowboy Action ever allowed the round into their sport as a carbine cartridge companioned to the 1911 for Wild Bunch you might see the demand increase to where a company could produce a 5K run and make some money off the guns.

Just saying.

Take Care

Bob

Artful

11-27-2013, 08:28 PM

Artful who did your #4 Conversion? It is a #4 not an SMLE.

Take Care

Bob

Bob it started out as a #4 but now is a really short magazine Lee Enfield - the conversion parts came from Richard at Special Interest Arms out of Nevada.

robertbank

11-27-2013, 08:47 PM

Bob it started out as a #4 but now is a really short magazine Lee Enfield - the conversion parts came from Richard at Special Interest Arms out of Nevada.

Did a search. I am going to get a receiver and run with this. I'll be the coolest dude in Canada.

Take Care

Bob

JHeath

11-27-2013, 10:25 PM

Only .45 ACP conversions of the Model 92 style lever actions I'd heard of till now used a M3 greasegun magazine instead of the tube mag and lifter.

WHERE? While considering rimless cartridges, I had the idea of converting a '92 to box magazines, but thought it would foul the lever travel.

If somebody has done this I'd like to know about it.

If the tube mag is eliminated, the hole could be used to locate a forearm hanger and the barrel free-floated, which presumably would help accuracy.

Pepe Ray

11-28-2013, 01:08 AM

I'm not suggesting NOR requesting that ANY company or individual set up to introduce or manufacture a lever action rifle in .45ACP

This is FOR ME!! I expect to pay for it. I'm not asking for a gift. I want to hire someone to do a job for ME.
I thought our country needed production and workers. Looks to me that everyone is fat and contented.
Of course a smith could just price me out, another way of saying "I don't want to do it."
O.K., I'm tired.
Happy Thanksgiving guys,
Pepe Ray

Love Life

11-28-2013, 01:14 AM

Happy Thanksgiving and I honestly hope you find somebody to build your rifle. Somebody, somewhere, has to be willing to take the job.

StrawHat

11-28-2013, 08:49 AM

Pepe Ray,

First, Happy Thanksgiving.

2nd, when you find the smith willing to do this, I need one also and amking two at the same time will be easier for him than remembering what he did previously, sign me up!

Multigunner

11-28-2013, 07:25 PM

WHERE? While considering rimless cartridges, I had the idea of converting a '92 to box magazines, but thought it would foul the lever travel.

If somebody has done this I'd like to know about it.

If the tube mag is eliminated, the hole could be used to locate a forearm hanger and the barrel free-floated, which presumably would help accuracy.
I can't tell you much about these, just what I learned when checking out one of these rifles that was used as a prop weapon in the Sci Fi movie "Soldier" starring Kurt Russel.
I asked around on several boards to find out if the rifle in the movie was real.
I'd heard of the Mexican police converting Model 92 Winchester or its clones to .45 ACP but not the feed mechanism. I would not have thought the tube magazine would have been used for these.
One poster who answered said both the M3 Grease gun and 1911 pistol mags were at times used by the Mexicans with these conversions, another stated that many .44-40 Mod 92 rifles in his country had been converted to .45 ACP after a law was passed preventing importation of any rifle cartridge that could also be used in a handgun. Their military, having converted entirely to the 9mm, still had huge stocks of .45 ACP that they were selling off dirt cheap. Having been brought into the country decades before the law was passed as military aid this ammo could still be bought by civilians. Since few civilians there owned any sort of handgun The idea of converting .44-40 rifles to .45 ACP came naturally. The surplus .45 ammo was cheaper than reloading the dwindling supply of .44 cases still on hand.
Since M3 Magazines were also being sold at scrap metal prices these were a natural choice.
Another poster told of some Model 92 rifles being converted to 9mm using the STEN magazine.
For the life of me I can not remember where any of those posters lived, if they ever mentioned what country they lived in. I think the last two lived in former British possessions or client states.

I can remember when new in the wrap M3 magazines were going for $3 each, so in those days it would have been an attractive alternative. Prices went up when Mac-10 owners found these could be altered to work in that weapon.

robertbank

11-28-2013, 07:48 PM

Pepe there is a guy, a gunsmith, down in Louisiana who is on TV that seems to do all kinds of weird and wonderful work on guns. His company name is Red Jacket. Google him up and see if he will do the job. From what I can see he takes on just about every thing that comes his way.

Another family outside of Denver does a lot of Custom Work. I'll see if I can find his name for you. If I do I'll post back here.

Happy Thanksgiving. Enjoy the turkey.

Take Care

Bob

Knight Templar

11-28-2013, 09:50 PM

Try this site for a 1873 conversion to 45acp.
http://www.codyscowboyshop.com

micky_blue

11-28-2013, 10:25 PM

I believe David Clay built an 1894 Marlin 45acp takedown several years back

Gunslinger1911

11-28-2013, 10:38 PM

I still think this is a way cool idea ! I see 2 people wanting one - I make 3.
This is an "unusual" bunch on this site, maybe we could get more interested ?
Do I see the potential for a group buy ??? Might get the interest of a gunsmith if there were enough people ?

btroj

11-28-2013, 10:55 PM

Artful

11-28-2013, 11:17 PM

I can't tell you much about these, just what I learned when checking out one of these rifles that was used as a prop weapon in the Sci Fi movie "Soldier" starring Kurt Russel.
I asked around on several boards to find out if the rifle in the movie was real.
I'd heard of the Mexican police converting Model 92 Winchester or its clones to .45 ACP but not the feed mechanism. I would not have thought the tube magazine would have been used for these.
One poster who answered said both the M3 Grease gun and 1911 pistol mags were at times used by the Mexicans with these conversions, another stated that many .44-40 Mod 92 rifles in his country had been converted to .45 ACP after a law was passed preventing importation of any rifle cartridge that could also be used in a handgun. Their military, having converted entirely to the 9mm, still had huge stocks of .45 ACP that they were selling off dirt cheap. Having been brought into the country decades before the law was passed as military aid this ammo could still be bought by civilians. Since few civilians there owned any sort of handgun The idea of converting .44-40 rifles to .45 ACP came naturally. The surplus .45 ammo was cheaper than reloading the dwindling supply of .44 cases still on hand.
Since M3 Magazines were also being sold at scrap metal prices these were a natural choice.
Another poster told of some Model 92 rifles being converted to 9mm using the STEN magazine.
For the life of me I can not remember where any of those posters lived, if they ever mentioned what country they lived in. I think the last two lived in former British possessions or client states.

I can remember when new in the wrap M3 magazines were going for $3 each, so in those days it would have been an attractive alternative. Prices went up when Mac-10 owners found these could be altered to work in that weapon.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Soldier

Unknown Rifle

I just watched this movie again today, and noticed that this gun wasn't on the page. It was seen during the town meeting when they discuss exiling Todd.
Looks like a .22 lever action rifle with a 20 round Uzi magazine attached to the front.--ColonelTomb 23:33, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/9/9d/Soldier-rifle.JPG/600px-Soldier-rifle.JPG

robertbank

11-29-2013, 12:14 PM

Neat idea, yes.
Would I be willing to pay for it? No.

I have a feeling this could cost an existing donor rifle and 500 bucks or more. Probably a bunch more. Not interested in a 1 K levergun in 45 ACP just because.

You just answered the "Why not" and "Why hasn't" question. I suspect marketing departments around the gun industry have come to the same conclusion by asking themselves the same question.

Take Care

Bob

Multigunner

11-29-2013, 01:18 PM

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Soldier

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/9/9d/Soldier-rifle.JPG/600px-Soldier-rifle.JPG

Can anyone ID this Lever action?
Is it a Browning lever action?
The short throw Browning action would allow more clearance , and the trigger guard looks to have been altered. Theres a spot on it that looks rewelded or heated and reshaped.
The barrel looks to have been altered. Possibly a slim barrel threaded into the cut off stub of the original barrel?

If it is a working rifle rather than a cobbled together prop rifle it may be one of the 9mm conversions I was told about.

Outpost75

11-30-2013, 12:59 PM

can anyone id this lever action?
Is it a browning lever action?
The short throw browning action would allow more clearance , and the trigger guard looks to have been altered. Theres a spot on it that looks rewelded or heated and reshaped.
The barrel looks to have been altered. Possibly a slim barrel threaded into the cut off stub of the original barrel?

If it is a working rifle rather than a cobbled together prop rifle it may be one of the 9mm conversions i was told about.

movie prop shop gun.

BCRider

11-30-2013, 03:45 PM

What about modifying an 1873 pattern rifle? In looking at the diagram below it seems like this would be pretty easy. A spring loaded one way limiter of some form would be added to the elevator block to hold the cartridge on the elevator with the nose of the bullet at or just inside the shear point. From there I suspect not much more would be needed. Just a barrel set back and re-chambering and some suitable modification to the extractor and extractor nose notch to allow proper hooking of the casing groove.

Loading it may prove a little interesting. Due to the short length and the need to pass the loads fully down the opening in the elevator block a push stick would be needed to load the last round to get it past the new spring loaded rear stop in the loading block. But for a one off rifle this would not be a big deterrent. And in fact with a little imagination a push stick of this sort could be slipped into a holder on the fore stock so it didn't get lost.

89070

I wonder if this same action could be fairly easily converted to a stick magazine so that it could use the same magazines as the handgun. The tube magazine would be removed and the elevator block removed and replaced with a mag well and catch. The bolt may require some modification to shape it so it looks more like the end of a handgun slide. I'm not sure what provides the ejection action in a 73 so some modification may be needed for that as well.