Krag strength with cast boolits

[Char-Gar]

In the current issue of The Fouling Shot, there was a little piece He feel push a heavy 30 caliber bullet like 311299 was to hot, and such bullets should be limited to 1,450 fps.

I realize the single lug Krag is not a strong action and these rifles are all over 100 years old, but that still seem to be a little to cautious.

He thinks the 180 grain bullet over 28/4198 at 1,900 - 1.950 fs is OK.

I will also confess to a frequent use of 311284/16/2400.

What say the good folks on this board?

[BruceB]

I haven't loaded for very many Krag rifles....only two, both of the "NRA Sporter" configuration. Both are in excellent condition, with no rust, pitting or other possibly-weakening structural flaws.

My loads have been from very light right up to those which duplicate the original service load, with 220 grains at up to 2200 fps. I've used both jacketed 220s and 311284s at this speed. I haven't dabbled with super-light loads for many years now, preferring to stay in the 180-2200 fps zone, and this means that the "need" for fast powders is non-existent.

Although I don't worry about shooting the Krag at this level, I most definitely DO make sure that the powders I use are not of the fast-burning types. The well-known hardness and/or "brittleness" of the Krag actions leads me to use powders which raise their pressures in a fairly gradual fashion, at least as compared to Unique, 2400, Red Dot etc.. IMR 4198 is as fast as I care to use in the Krag, and it has worked extremely well for me. No faster powder has been used in my .30-40s for years, and I am quite content with what I get from 4198. In fact, on my bench, 4198 is THE powder for the Krag and I like it a great deal in this cartridge. Most of my 4198/Krag loads use a dacron tuft.

The U.S. Krag was designed and intended for the 220 grain bullet. Using cast bullets of similar weight surely doesn't constitute mis-treatment of the rifle!

[dubber123]

While I am not familiar with the factory ballistics, I believe both numbers sound kinda mild. As long as bullet weight and velocity don't exceed factory ballistics, the cast pressure should always be less in my opinion.

[Shiloh]

I load a Lyman 314299 sized at .312 over 19 gr.of Sr 4759 Clone surplus powder from Jeff Bartlett. A lubed and checked boolit weighs 208 gr. 19 grains of powder gives fine accuracy at around 1660 average velocity. I've run them up to 1950 with this powder, but get better accuracy at the lower velocity. This is a Krag 1898 cut-down rifle, with an excellent bore.

There are no signs of pressure and it is quite a mild load in the recoil department.

I've used AA 5744 and IMR 4198 with excellent results below 1900 fps with this boolit.

Shiloh :castmine:

[Buckshot]

...............I shoot my Krag with the 314299 @ 200grs, and the Bator shallow LG 220gr both to design ballistics (2200 fps) without issue. In fact to get those velocities requires LESS powder then the book calls for with Jacketed. No primer issues and I am WELL aqauinted with WLR primers :-).

...............Buckshot

[Bret4207]

IMO there are certain ideas floating around that aren't always interpreted in the same light by all people. While the Krag isn't considered "strong" in todays world, I have no doubt a Krag thats been well maintained is adequate for factory level loads. A rifle of questionable heritage, say one that used to be a 22 Krag, can have the important issues, the bolt lug and recv'r, checked with an inexpensive Magnafluxer now running $40-80.00 from many of the industrial concerns. The same would apply to the older Savage 99's and 1895/99's, low # Springfields and other similar vintage rifles with historical warnings of disaster. Again, common sense and judicious loading procedures make all the difference in the world.

I'm sure we all have seen the old "barn gun" of other abused example of a firearm that withstands unreasonable abuse and ticks on like a Timex. The example I think of is a Savage Super Sporter model 40 in 30-'06. This particular rifle had more holes in the receiver than a Swiss cheese. Apparently various scope mounts and other sighting equipment were tried through the generations. That rear locking action digested hundreds of hot '06 loads that I considered well over max. Loose primer pockets and hard extraction were the order of the day, but my acquaintance (not one I would call a friend) considered anything less a sign of questionable manhood. He killed a lot of game with the rifle. Another guy used a '94 Winchester to launch 125 gr spire points at reportedly astounding speeds. Split cases, locked actions, blown primers, etc. I actually watched him pry the lever open with an axe once! A Savage 170 pump in 30-30 actually had a slightly sprung action from overloads, it still hunts, and jams every other round, today.

My point is that I think there is a slightly greater margin of safety in most firearms than we're lead to believe. Remember the stories of "junk Arisakas"? Parker Ackley proved that idea wrong, baring the late war cast jobs. Or the Ross rifles that blew up all the time? Find real proof of the claim. Or those lousy weak '93/95 Mausers, or the '91 Argies for that matter. They've been digesting factory European loads for decades without a hitch.

I'm at the point where I don't put much faith in anything I don't see first hand anymore. I guess it shows!

[Shiloh]

Factory ammunition is available from both Remington and Winchester in a PSP 180 gr jacketed bullet. Both are loaded to the proper pressures for the .30-40 Krag,

From what I understand, P.O. Ackley did "Blow Up" tests on the Krag and decided that it was not particularly weak WITHIN ITS OPERATION PRESSURES, but was not one to run "hot loads" through. It's operating pressure is around 40,000 C.U.P. and have seen it listed as 40,000 PSI. There is a big difference. I for one would not to get "creative" with a rifle built on a Krag action.

Both the .308 and .30-06 have operating pressures of around 50,000 C.U.P. and 60,000 PSI, considerably higher than the .30-40 Krag. If you want to "Hot Rod" a rifle, against all the advice of countless reloaders and shooters, not to mention pressure engineers and technicians, pick a different caliber, rifle, and location far away from me.

Cast Boolits are the only thing fired in my Krag. :-D From my well maintained rifle, with the velocities that I run, I'm sure I could shoot my Krag cut-down rifle until hell freezes over with fine accuracy, reliability, and without any kind of problems at all.

Shiloh :castmine:

[Char-Gar]

I just reread my original post and I forgot a word or two. The "little piece" was by C.E. "Ed Harris" and he says you must not exceed about 38,000 c.u.p. in the Karg.

[Bret4207]

Ed Harris hs my respect as a writer. I believe his advice is worth heeding in terms of abusing the rifle. Thats a little different than "hot rodding". It all comes back to common sense, doesn't it? That doesn't mean a Krag or Iver Johnson or Stevens 44 will explode when used. Just have to work within reason. Good advice.

[NVcurmudgeon]

I have never understood why anybody would hotrod a Krag. The 220 gr. bullet at factory velocity has competently handled all North American creatures great and small for over a century. Original .30/40 ballistics shoot flat enough for reasonable iron sight ranges. It's a clumsy design to put a scope on anyway, but magnificent with iron sights.

[Shiloh]

According to Wikipedia and several other gun-boards, the .30-40 Krag with a 220 gr bullet,
took the world record elk in 1899. A record that stood for half a century. Plenty of oomph for an elk.

I have seen LARGE elk in both Colorado and Wyoming. Some of the ones in Rocky Mt. National Park near Estes Park Colorado, are HUGE.

http://www.cbweekly.com/page.cfm?pageid=8822

Shiloh :castmine:

[Char-Gar]

Well,,, Harris wasn't talking about "hot roding". He was taking about not pushing a cast bullet 1,650 fps in the Krag. That is a very, very long way from hot roding the Krag.

[Bret4207]

Huh. Doesn't make sense on the face of it. I suppose he could have been thinking about folks using fast powders, but he's been recommending that for years. I would stop by the CBA website forum and ask him. He's there all the time.

I regret to say I haven't looked at the latest issue yet.