Question on brass fatigue

[Mik]

Hi All,

I just found my first .30-30 CB load that will group well at 50 yards out of my Win 94. Its a Lyman 311291 (.311") GC over 21 grains of H4198.

When I got home to clean and resize the brass, I noticed a dark colored ring on 25% of the Winchester cases (twice fired). The ring varied in thickness and was located approximately half way between the bottom of the case and the shoulder. There were also some thinner, lighter colored rings closer to the shoulder on some of the cases in question.

Two questions:

1) The Lyman manual shows a starting load of of 18gr and a never-exceed load of 24gr for the same bullet sized to .309". Is it possible the additional .002" is creating an over pressure situation? My barrel slugs at .310"

2) Are the cases in the attached photo safe to reload? The descriptions I've read of imminent case head separation don't quite match the symptoms I'm seeing here but I have very little reloading experience. I cut one open and didn't notice any case thinning.

Thanks for your help.

88487

[Larry Gibson]

What were the cases stored/transported in before and after firing?

Larry Gibson

[jcwit]

Are you using a Lee Chamfer tool? That looks like what the bright ring is from just below the shoulder.

Dark ring, holding devise?

[DGV]

Are they present before firing? Chamber tool marks?

[Mik]

Larry and JC,

Thanks for the answers.

The cases were stored and transported in the green plastic cartridge box you see in the background of the photo. Of the 100 cases I transported the same way, these are the only ones displaying the dark rings.

I did use the Lee Chamfer Tool which probably accounts for the light rings near the shoulder.

Mik

[Mik]

DGV,

Not sure if the dark rings were present before firing. I think I would have noticed them but it's entirely possible I didn't. The dark rings are too far down on the case to be caused by the chamfer tool I've been using.

[BattleRife]

Mik,
The drift of the responses so far is that the rings are the result of minor scuffing/fretting due to how they are handled, and are not indicative of some kind of damage to the cases. I agree completely. You demonstrated it yourself when you cut a sample open; that is the ultimate test of brass for a pending head separation.

[jcwit]

The dark rings are too far down on the case to be caused by the chamfer tool I've been using.

Correct.

Possible it was dirt or something on the dividers of the cartridge box?

[MUSTANG]

Mik:

What does the chamber look like? I see two things in the picture:

(1) The obvious dark circular region on each of the cases that is the subject of the thread.
(2) There is a bright-shiny thin circular ring just below the shoulder on 4 of the 6 cases in the picture (1,2,4 & 6 looking at them left to right, possibly also the 5th one from the right).

I would inspect the chamber to see what may be going on in there.

Mustang

[Mik]

The light rings were almost certainly caused by me canting the chamfer tool. They line up perfectly with the edge of the tool when placed on the case.

As far as the dark rings go. I've inspected the chamber and it looks clean and smooth. It's possible it could be scuffing from the cartridge box, but I would expect it on more of the cases. I wouldn't expect dirt in the box to cause such a perfectly symmetrical ring. Further, when you run your finer over the ring, you feel nothing. It doesn't feel like a scratch or a scuff.

So far no one has suggested the dark rings appear to be associated with over-pressure. Nor has anyone suggested the dark rings are a clear indication of pending case failure. All good news to me.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

[MarkP]

Plastic dividers and the plastic belt type holders that come in the factory 20 packs with make these rings.

[44man]

The rings are strange because all are a different distance from the base. I do NOT like the crickled lines on the necks.
Brass does not usually stretch from the center of the brass and I have been shooting the 30-30 with cast from the Marlin at full jacketed loads without anything like that. My friend has a 94 that needs FL sizing and my Marlin needs 1/2 turn up with the die and neither gun has those marks.
I do need to trim more with the lever gun then any other because of bolt spring. Cases are harder to size too. But I have shot 20 times with the same brass.
I would take a probe and check inside for a stretch point.
I have measured bad run out with 30-30 brass so I neck turned and fired brass runs from zero run out to .002". I need to trim every time, not much but some brass needs more metal cut and some need nothing cut.
From the picture that is hard to tell from, some cases look longer. Since the Lee works from the inside of the case and that varies, are you sure they are the same length?

[Larry Gibson]

Correct.

Possible it was dirt or something on the dividers of the cartridge box?

Exactly what I think, I see that all the time.

Larry Gibson

[jcwit]

Exactly what I think, I see that all the time.

Larry Gibson

Yes, and it's pretty much in the right area.

I checked a couple of my cartridge boxes, but I do not have them in 30-30.

I do reload 30-30 with a Lee Loader which only neck sizes, but I shoot a cast bullet that only weigh's 113 grs, and 12 grains of Trail Boss, and that is a light load causing little if any case stretching.

[Mik]

Mark P,

These came loaded from the factory in one of those plastic belt holders. It could be that.

44 man,

The damage to the case neck was the result of me crimping them with pliers thinking I had damaged brass (newbie move?). I then did some research and heard about the probe idea, re-opened the necks and ran a probe in. Couldn't feel a dent.

It must have been something I did while handling the case, dirt in the cartridge box, plastic belt holder, something like that.

This was my first thread and I can't believe the feedback I've received. You guys are great.

[MtGun44]

I think Larry nailed it.

Bill

[cbrick]

You cut open a case & then used a probe inside the case, if the case were stretching you should certainly know it now. Tumble the brass to remove the black marks & shoot it again, I'll be willing to bet the marks won't reappear. Next, keep pliers of cartridge brass cause you'll get crickled lines.


I do NOT like the crickled lines on the necks.

Learn something everyday. Today I learned what a crickled line is.

Crickled line: = Plier marks. :mrgreen: Whooda thunk it.

Rick

[WILCO]

The damage to the case neck was the result of me crimping them with pliers thinking I had damaged brass (newbie move?).

I find this disturbing. Do you have a reloading manual Mik?

[WILCO]

I think Larry nailed it.

Bill

I would agree.

[Mik]

Wilco,

I have the Lyman 49th edition. I crimped the case necks because I thought they were damaged and didn't want to get them confused with good brass (read this was a good idea in the Lyman Intro to Reloading (http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/presses-and-kits/pdf/IntroToReloading.pdf), page 5). Then after doing some research, I had second thoughts about the brass condition and reopened the necks with the resizing die.

[CastingFool]

Mik, while cutting a cartridge in half to check for head case separation gives you the best view, you can accomplish the same thing by straightening out a paperclip, and putting a short 90 deg bend on one end (about 1/8" long or so) then insert the modified paperclip into the suspected cartridge until it bottoms out, then bring it back out slowly, making sure the end of the bend is contacting the inside cartridge wall. If there is an incipient head case separation, you will feel a slight indent on the case wall. You should also be able to see a bright ring on the outside of the case.

[quilbilly]

Whenever I see those types of marks on brass, I run a thin wire down the inside of the case (straightened paper clip comes to mind) to feel for a thin spot which means incipient head separation. If not there, check again after shooting that brass again.

[Axton1]

Mik
When you say that you "CRIMPED" the neck with pliers - do you mean that you CRUSHED the neck flat with pliers? Becasue that would make good sense if they were bad................but they were not, they may now BE bad if that's what you did.

And to those that talk of using a paper clip to feel inside of the case - are you bending a small 90 degree on it to feel inside with? And do you sharpen it or not? I've tried to feel inside of some cases that look like they may have an issue but, I can't "feel" anything with a straightened clip with a small 90 on the end of it - do I need to sharpen a point on that bend to be able to feel a problem?

[Mik]

'Crushed' is such a strong word, I prefer 'made more flat than round'. I then ran a sharpened paperclip down the case using the method described above and felt nothing unusual. I might have destroyed these cases which is a shame. However thanks to forum members I now know not to overreact to these lines if they reappear.

[dondiego]

It is a good idea to flatten or disfigure any brass that you don't want to load or have anyone else load again.

[WILCO]

Wilco,

I have the Lyman 49th edition. I crimped the case necks because I thought they were damaged and didn't want to get them confused with good brass....

My mistake Mik.
I thought you "Crimped" them to hold the boolit in place.

[44man]

I understand now about the necks.
Take the boxes and wash them out good with soap and water, see if the marks go away.
I have piles of MTM boxes and never get that but do need to wash them now and then. After tumbling I tap the brass but there is always some media left so when I put the brass back in a box, the stuff falls out. Soon the stuff is stuck on my lubed loaded boolit noses. Walnut goes with deer meat I guess!

[cbrick]

After tumbling I tap the brass but there is always some media left so when I put the brass back in a box, the stuff falls out. Soon the stuff is stuck on my lubed loaded boolit noses. Walnut goes with deer meat I guess!

Yummy . . . :mrgreen:

Rick

[243winxb]

So far no one has suggested the dark rings appear to be associated with over-pressure. Nor has anyone suggested the dark rings are a clear indication of pending case failure. The dark rings are where the brass finally sealed the bore. Thats my guess.

[44man]

The dark rings are where the brass finally sealed the bore. Thats my guess.
Naw, it is something else. Might be the boxes like most think. I am leaning that way. If the chamber is clean and smooth, can't be that.
What we don't know is if the brass was nice before firing and if it is only after being shot, we are all at a loss for the reason. Can there be a rough spot in the chamber?

[Bad Water Bill]

Mik

Welcome to the wonderful world of reloading and casting.

Learn from what some have said BUT always remember EVERYONE of us made a lot of mistakes when we first got started. The advantage you have is that this great site exists to help folks.

When some of us started T V was a new fangled thing. And for others of us electricity was the latest marvel.:oops:

The learning NEVER stops.