Old School 45 Colt loading

[Char-Gar]

Some time back a friend gave me a lot of old Western Lubaloy 45 Colt ammo which I promptly shot up. They all went bang except two and I pulled the bullets and deprimed them so I could use the cases. The cases were all balloon head and lacked an extractor groove above the rim. They would not fit in any of my shell holders including the old Pacific solid ram.

So, out came the hand tools. The cases were FL sized with a Lyman Shell Resizer and loaded with a 310 tool as none of these required the use of a shell holder.

I used Lyman 454190 over 6.5/Bulleye to keep things really old school. They are to be fired in my 1921 Colt New Service. Old School all the way.

You really don't need a stinking thousand dollar progressive reloader to produce good ammo.

[bhn22]

I like it Charles! I pull similar feats from time to time. Just because I think it needs to be done.

[Char-Gar]

Yep, way to many folks these days think reloading was invented by Dillon.

[joehaberxxx]

I agree. When I was a kid I had the privilege of watching an old farmer sit at the kitchen table and reload 8 gauge shotgun shells with some sort of tong tool. This would have been in the fifties. The gun was a double hammer of some kind. I squirrel hunted with him in the river bottoms with that gun and a 410 single shot pistol. I got to shoot the single shot but I could not heft the double barrel.

[Outpost75]

Bravo Zulu! What size cartridge case makes a proper dip measure for 6.5 grains of Bullseye?

I'll bet a .32 S&W (not the Long) or. 32 ACP would be real close. A Lee 0.7cc is supposed to throw 6.6 grains, but mine is 6.5 and is what I use with my Ideal tong tool and Colt M1909 .45 DA Army.

[Char-Gar]

Bravo Zulu! What size cartridge case makes a proper dip measure for 6.5 grains of Bullseye?

I'll bet a .32 S&W (not the Long) or. 32 ACP would be real close. A Lee 0.7cc is supposed to throw 6.6 grains, but mine is 6.5 and is what I use with my Ideal tong tool and Colt M1909 .45 DA Army.

Little Dandy rotor no. 12

[Outpost75]

Little Dandy rotor no. 12

Yup! That works too!

Finally confirmed by check weighing that a dip measure made from a Winchester .32 ACP case, "shook and struck" throws 6 grains of Bullseye. This is a good basic charge for cowboy revolvers and lever-actions chambered in .44-40 and .45 Colt, and makes a nice plinker in the .44 Magnum. It also makes a great small game load with 110-120 grain cast bullets in most .30 cal. rifles .30-30 and up.

[Char-Gar]

Yup! That works too!

Finally confirmed by check weighing that a dip measure made from a Winchester .32 ACP case, "shook and struck" throws 6 grains of Bullseye. This is a good basic charge for cowboy revolvers and lever-actions chambered in .44-40 and .45 Colt, and makes a nice plinker in the .44 Magnum. It also makes a great small game load with 110-120 grain cast bullets in most .30 cal. rifles .30-30 and up.

10-4, Let's keep it simple. The Lee 0.7 dipper has a nominal charge weight of 6.6/Bulleye. A couple of strokes with a file across the top, weighing as you go, will give 6 to 6.5 grains of Bullseye or anything between.

I have been using Bulleye for 50 years and with the price and availability of powder these days, I like it more and more for it's miserly use of the precious stuff.

[Green Frog]

Ah, the sweet experience of loading with a tong tool! :mrgreen:

There's nothing like it to get me back to my roots. I just did mouth belling on a batch of 32 S&W Long cases in preparation for loading 100 special target loads for my Smiths. Life is good! :D

Froggie

[Bret4207]

Yep, way to many folks these days think reloading was invented by Dillon.

HAR!!!! I love it! Man, if that's not the truth. And the when you say to them that they should should just start with a single stage or maybe a Lee Loader they get all frustrated and offended! Progressives and HARDCAST, the 2 biggest boondoggles int he handloading world.

[1Shirt]

It is good to go back to the basics once in awhile! Ditto your comments Bret!
1Shirt!

[StrawHat]

I use a tong tool to load all but one of my rifles. The only rifle cartridge I do not use a 310 for is the 50-70 and I may get that at some point. While I have used the 310 for revolver cartridges, I also enjoy being able to crank out a few thousand at a time with my blue 450. Not sure I'd want to go back to feeding a competition diet with a 310.

[1bluehorse]

You really don't need a stinking thousand dollar progressive reloader to produce good ammo.[/QUOTE]




Where as I agree with you on that point...try telling it to anyone who owns a Dillon...:drinks:

[BruceB]

Tell y'all what.... I am a certified (and some might say "certifiable"!) old geezer now. I started my handloading, the first few hundred rounds of .45 ACP, with a Lyman 310 hand tool... INCLUDING sizing the hand-lubed bullets by driving them through the sizing chamber of the 310.

When I received a single-station Lyman Spartan press and the #45 lube-sizer, it was like a reprieve from hard labor.

I don't MISS the 310, I never DID miss the 310, and if I never see another one that will be just fine with me. Likewise, I started loading .30 Carbine with the original Lee Loader.... don't miss IT, either.

The "charm" of such devices is completely lost on me!

I load ammunition (and cast bullets) to SHOOT. Whatever eases my efforts to make >GOOD< ammunition without breaking the bank, is welcome on my bench. That attitude started early, when I upgraded the Spartan to an All-American turret press around 1967-8. It gave me a very useful increase in production rate with NO loss in quality.

This machine sufficed for quite a few years, and still sees a great deal of service. A Dillon 550 came along in the '90s to keep it company, and to do the longer runs and bigger batches that I might need. I'd hate to lose either of them. I VERY rarely use my Rockchucker for anything; it's just not needed.

Anyone who prefers the old-timey methods is welcome to them, but I want ammunition on my bench, not loose components. More-advanced tooling helps this preference to become reality sooner.

[45sixgun]

It's a mentality that you have to have to appreciate. For example....I like to make knives. Most knife makers use new steels and power tools. The mentality is...just get the knife made as well and quickly as possible. What counts is having the knife to use. On the other hand I prefer to use salvaged steel and no power tools. Everything is done tediously by hand. And I like it that way. I even enjoy scavenging for the high carbon scrap steel. My knives seem to have "soul" that way. With reloading I go slowly one stage at a time, enjoying every minute. I can't afford to load and shoot a bunch of ammo anyway, so I poke along and enjoy the roses....

I appreciate the post Char-gar.

[Springfield]

I don't have 600.00 into BOTH my Dillon 550's. I have not added a case feeder to either just because I'm cheap but I sure would never want to have to go back to using my Rockchucker to load ammo, let alone a LEE Loader, my time is just too precious. I don't make ammo to look at it and admire it, I load it to shoot. Making something permanent like a knife is totally different. I cut, sew and dye all my leather stuff by hand also, but I'm not going to just shoot it and destroy it in 10 minutes either.

[45sixgun]

Making something permanent like a knife is totally different. I cut, sew and dye all my leather stuff by hand also, but I'm not going to just shoot it and destroy it in 10 minutes either.

I see your point. What I was trying to get at was the focus on the process or the journey as opposed to just the product or result. Reloading by hand the old school way is a process worthy of enjoyment....to some.

[Char-Gar]

I see your point. What I was trying to get at was the focus on the process or the journey as opposed to just the product or result. Reloading by hand the old school way is a process worthy of enjoyment....to some.

Yes, I thoroughly enjoy the process of hand loading. I am in no hurry to get it over.

[BruceB]

Gents;

Make no mistake, I too enjoy the handloading. It gives me great pleasure and a sense of accomplishment, knowing that my ammunition is reliable, accurate, and made by my own efforts.

do NOT have a need to contemplate every step on every cartridge along the way. Part of the accomplishment is the creation of LOTS of ammunition for my future pleasure. My processes ensure that the stuff is safe to shoot, and as uniform as I can possibly make it. This does not take a whole lot of time, either.

It also depends to large degree on the purpose of the given lot of ammo. For instance, my blackpowder .45-70s are loaded in very leisurely fashion, with hand-measuring of the charge, pouring it through a drop tube, compressing the powder, etc etc. Not at all like a high-production run of .45 ACP or .357 Magnum, where I will often load at least several hundred cartridges (or more) in a batch.

[Dan Cash]

+10 to the 10th power. If something better than a 310 tool had not come along about 1959, I would have quit reloading. If that were all that were available today, Uncle Arthritis would end my loading career. Nothing wrong with doing things the slow, tedious way but don't expect kudos for being a Luddite.

[Outpost75]

Char-Gar and I are from a parallel universe and probably knew each other long ago on another planet far away in another galaxy.

89458

This isn't my .45 Colt bullet sizer, but I have one of them too.

[Char-Gar]

Ahhh...Ideal No. 3 tool. I use them also for the same purpose. My first one was for the 45-70 and it had the bullet mold connected to it. I cast bullets, pan lubed, sized, primer etc. with the same tool. Mostly black powder shot in my Trapdoor. I paid $25.00 for the rifle back in the day. I spent many fun hours plinking at "targets of opportunity" across the Rio Grande River into our "sister republic to the south" i.e. Mexico. The black powder created a cloud of smoke through which I would yell "Remember the Alamo" from time to time. Today, that would create an international incident and land me in jail or get me killed by somebody along that river way today. But, in the late 50's, it was just clean (more or less) teenage fun.

I have two of those Ideal No. 3 for the 30 US (30-40) and the bullet sizing chambers size to .3125 if anybody is interested in that factoid.

I do about 99% of my depriming and priming with 310 tools. I mostly size cases with the bench press, but often expand necks and seat bullets with the 310 tools as well. I am talking mostly handgun ammo here. For the rifles I deprime and prime with the 310 and then go to the bench for everything else. However I used three old Pacific presses (two pre-war) and an RCBS A2 so that is still pretty much old school. I do have a Redding turret that is permanently set up for the 38 Special round with all sorts of special dies living there.

[powderburnerr]

one thing people failed to notice is his old brass didnt work with modern equipment ,
I use a 310 tool to load my 44-77 because it was a pain in the rear to find proper dies and such . I had one made custom for the brass and do not feel handicapped at all , I load 100s at a time with it .
I think they have their place ,mine is in a loading kit with 100 pieces of brass, bullets, and components to reload 300 rounds , one box in the car and the rifle and I am good to go for a match or a shooting session wherever I want to shoot.

[charliek]

Some one comments on the value of their time in praise of progressive presses. Valuing my time is one reason the blue press is on the floor under the bench. Too much time was spent on the phone to the Tech Line. A 310 and a CH four station keep my shooting up and my blood pressure down.

[opos]

Mucho old guy here with Mucho old school ways...don't begrudge anyone for how they load or what tools they use but I've never owned anything but single stage...don't use a measure...have a beam scale...until a year or so ago never used a tumbler and often do not today. Frequently if sitting in my "office" (Wife calls it my lair)...I'll shut the cats out by closing the door..turn off the phone..hang out the do not disturb sign and pull out my Lee hand loader (not the whack a mole but the nutcracker) and process brass that I've washed or tumbled..then when I feel like it I use the old round style Lee Auto Prime and when time and my attitude permits...weigh each charge and load my rounds one by one...really slow and boring and exactly the way I like it. If I were to make up 200 rounds a night it wouldn't be long before I'd have a lifetime supply of "excess"...I might shoot 50-100 rounds a visit to the range and that's a cake walk with my silly little set up...been doing this since the 50's...recently got a Lee Classic Cast press..I really like it for 30-06 , 8mm and 7.62x54r loading...never use it for straight case pistol shells. Even with the press on the bench...I still move very slowly, weigh every load (dip with a dipper into the scale pan and trickle the balance with an RCBS trickler...usually I'm only a couple of tenths off because I've been "dipping" for so long)...Whatever works for anyone is dandy with me...had a friend (now deceased) that had 2 Dillons in his specially built "loading room"...he looked like a production shop..he loaded for other folks and shot a ton himself..he used to really laugh a my way of doing things but we had different goals...

I remember the 310 tools well as well as the first C and H single stage I had....long time ago.

[Char-Gar]

I had no particular agenda to my original post except to share some recent fun I had loading old school 45 Colt ammo. I enjoy using old/vintage/antique reloading tools to produce ammo. I no longer have the need or desire to crank out buckets of ammo and my time is all my own, now that I am retired. Each hour has the value I assign to it by what I do with the time. Time spend old school reloading is indeed "quality time" for me.

Others utilize their time in other ways depending on what is going on in their lives. I don't think one way is better, superior or higher than another. It is just how we want to utilize the finite number of hours and days we have on this earth.

A friend once told me when I lived down in South America.."You North Americans say that time is money, but we Latinos say that time is life.".

[45sixgun]

"You North Americans say that time is money, but we Latinos say that time is life."

That's one to remember. I'll be writing it in my journal.

Where in S. America did you live? I spent the first 18 years of my life in Suriname and Brazil (mostly Brazil).

[Char-Gar]

Quito, Ecuador

[bhn22]

Charles, you and Outpost75 are going to convert me to the dark side yet. I spent all this money with Dillon and Redding to be trendy, and now all I want for Christmas is a 310 (and an older gun to feed it with).

I hope you're pleased...

[Wayne Smith]

You don't need an older gun ... just a 38 Special!

[Char-Gar]

Charles, you and Outpost75 are going to convert me to the dark side yet. I spent all this money with Dillon and Redding to be trendy, and now all I want for Christmas is a 310 (and an older gun to feed it with).

I hope you're pleased...

The old ways are still strong in you Grasshopper! Here is what you want and need..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221330159270?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648

Here is old...1913 to be exact

[Char-Gar]

Not old, but still cool, and 38s to boot!

[DRNurse1]

There is a Blue man in this thread, but he agrees with y'all! I usually use a tong type loader for working up a load.

But those blue (or red, or green, or brown) things can sure make a lot of cartridges in a short time.

[1bluehorse]

Char Gar, congatulations on your good fortune but I'm curious to ask.....with those old balloon head cases, aren't you just a wee bit tempted to load up some of that nasty black stuff :Fire:....? By the way I'm 67 and have never even seen a balloon head case, so a little envy here....also, to add to all the others, I've used the Lee "tool"..and bought a 310 setup when I bought my first 06' in 1969, sold that "nutcracker" years ago [smilie=p:..when I want to feel "as one with my reloading" I'll break out my oldie shotgun stuff and put a few together complete with an old style roll crimper....about 10 is all it takes and I'm back to the PW 375...:2_high5: It might be a bit of fun to use one again, (310 tool) but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it :bigsmyl2:...and it has nothing to do with "speed"....:drinks:

[Char-Gar]

Balloon head cases are not as common as the were some years back but I have several hundred in 45 Colt, 45 Auto Rim and 44Special. I have loaded lots of black powder over the years but it doesn't interest me much these days.

[Catshooter]

I use RCBS progressives/single station for most of my loading but I have to admit there is a certain charm in the 310. I have 'em in most of my important calibers.


Cat

[KCSO]

When you shot them did you wash the cases? You eed to wash out the primer residue on the old ones or it eats into the case. I had a balon head seperate on me ONCE with a 44-40 and it taught me a big lesson. They split right at the base and boy do you get sprayed.

[bhn22]

Charles, you really are merciless at times, but in the good way... :)

[Char-Gar]

When you shot them did you wash the cases? You eed to wash out the primer residue on the old ones or it eats into the case. I had a balon head seperate on me ONCE with a 44-40 and it taught me a big lesson. They split right at the base and boy do you get sprayed.

The old primers that contained mercury would attack the brass causing it to fail and should not be reloaded. The ammo in question was loaded with "non-mercuric" primers. I would have to check, but mercuric primers went out of fashion way before WWII. I don't think you could wash out the mercuric primer residue. Folks are aware of old chlorate/corrosive primers but not so much mercuric primers. Chlorate primer residue can cause rust to form in the barrel, unless cleaned out with water or a water based solvent, but won't harm the brass.

[Char-Gar]

Charles, you really are merciless at times, but in the good way... :)

Not merciless, just childish. My wife says I am the world's oldest ten year old.

[David2011]

I have to agree with BruceB. There are times I load for pleasure, performance and satisfaction and times I just need to make ammunition.

The purpose of the ammo is high on my list of how to load it. Loads for my hunting carry pistol, a Blackhawk in .45 Colt, are hand crafted one load at a time on a Rock Chucker as are my .44 Mag loads for a 14" Contender. I have a .45 Colt toolhead but it's been years since I used it. I bought some Hornady XTPs to put hogs down with but the cast boolits seem to work every bit as well so prefer to shoot my own boolits even if they cost the same. Besides, the cast boolit cartridges just "look right" in the drop belt rig that Springfield made for me.

Most of my centerfire rifle ammo is loaded the same way, one at a time, except for the kind of .223 you might want to stockpile and is loaded on a Dillon 550 until the parts to load it on a 650 arrive. Hunting and competition .223 is loaded on the RC.

When it comes to USPSA pistol match ammo, it is simply "manufactured" on a 650 with a case feeder at 900 rounds per hour. It's purpose driven and the purpose is to have enough for matches and practice. Dillons aren't the only thing. They're just another means to a different end.

David

[9.3X62AL]

I strive for simplicity with my reloading activity, so the Dillon or other full-on progressives haven't arrived here--and likely won't. I don't like for there to be too many things going on at once when the machine handle gets cranked. Like Bruce B, I don't miss the Lee Loaders very much--but I do have a few tools from them still in use (case mouth flaring punches). I never owned a Lyman 310. My two reloading presses are a Rock Chucker and a Ponsness-Warren P-200, and MEC 600 Jrs in my shotshell gauges. The P-200 is much like the 600 Jr., a turret arrangement where the shell/case is moved from station to station. The trick to getting production numbers from either system is to have componentry poised and ready to save motion. 200 rounds of metallic ammo is possible per hour, and 150 rounds of shotshells if your ingredients are staged correctly. I guess the watchword here is to facilitate production on my own terms.

[Green Frog]

Well, here we are in the "Casting and Reloading Hand Tools" Forum, and we finally get a great thread going about the use of a 310 Tool (the quintessential hand reloading tool) and a bunch of naysayers come on and tell us that if we aren't using a bright blue progressive tool to load a bajillion rounds an hour we are wasting time and don't know what reloading is all about. My question for them is, "What the heck are you doing reading this part of the forum anyway?" There are all sorts of topics in other headings, so why argue in the hand tool heading against hand tools? I for one am very happy to see an active and informative thread that actually fits this heading appearing here. JMHO, of course, but I think Char-Gar did a good thing to start this thread. :)

Froggie

PS I think I'll pull out my old nickel plated #3 tool this afternoon and load some 32 S&W Longs while I'm "iced in." ;)

[Char-Gar]

Well, here we are in the "Casting and Reloading Hand Tools" Forum, and we finally get a great thread going about the use of a 310 Tool (the quintessential hand reloading tool) and a bunch of naysayers come on and tell us that if we aren't using a bright blue progressive tool to load a bajillion rounds an hour we are wasting time and don't know what reloading is all about. My question for them is, "What the heck are you doing reading this part of the forum anyway?" There are all sorts of topics in other headings, so why argue in the hand tool heading against hand tools? I for one am very happy to see an active and informative thread that actually fits this heading appearing here. JMHO, of course, but I think Char-Gar did a good thing to start this thread. :)

Froggie

PS I think I'll pull out my old nickel plated #3 tool this afternoon and load some 32 S&W Longs while I'm "iced in." ;)

Well, so folks get the old school reloading thing and some do not. I don't get the Dillon thing, so different folks have different ways of doing things.

If a fellow isn't impressed with the 310 tool, try this gizmo. It loads 38 Specials just as neat as your please. Not progressive, but lots of fun.

[Outpost75]

Potter? or Beldng & Mull?

[Char-Gar]

Outpost 75

Belding and Mull 26. Works like a champ! Bullet seating and crimping is accomplished with the straight line die sitting in front of the tool. The later models had a seating die that went on the tool. This tool only neck sizes like the Lyman 310, but it is a little easier on arthritic hands to use. Mounted on the 2X4 I can use it at my desk. No need even to clamp the 2X4 down. Case mouth belling is accomplished by pushing or tapping the case onto he horn on the back of the tool. Sorta crude, but it works. Here is a pic of the horn.

I started a new thread on "Old School 38 Special loading" featuring this tool. I thought it would educate some, entertain some, and irritate a few, but any way it falls I am happy with the results.

[Char-Gar]

Mike...When I got started the Lee loader was just on the scene (or soon thereafter), but I never gave it a try. I was enthralled with the speed and ammo I could produce with My Pacific Super C. I know..sorta funny now. So, I do know where the Dillonites are coming from, in a round about way.

[Green Frog]

While I don't have a 310 or some of these fine old tooling, I do have and use the single stage presses Pacific, Lymans. Simple is always better in multiple locations and pleasure of the reloader. The original Lee loader is just a great concept on par with the 310 Thong tool, which was the Cadillac of the day.

Hey Sgt Mike... when you get tired of fooling with that worn out old powder measure you just got, maybe we can work out a trade. I've got a bunch of 310 stuff to spare that I can swap. :bigsmyl2:

Your buddy the Frog

[9.3X62AL]

I very much appreciate the old-school tooling, though my methods are a blended mid-point between pure handtool work and state-of-the-art cartridge making.

There are a few of the modern developments that leave me cold. I mentioned my preference against full-on progressive loading above, but another "upgrade" that I DETEST is the taper-crimp seating die. IF you plan to taper crimp, SEAT FULLY FIRST--THEN taper crimp. This goes double for cast bullet loading. I am beginning to lose affection for some of the lube-free pistol caliber sizer dies, especially the RCBS tungsten-carbide items. Most of these do WAY too much sizing, which is often heavily expanded (though not enough) by the following expander die. These dies "assume" use of jacketed bullets with a vengeance, and in a couple calibers (44 Magnum and 45 Colt) I have resorted to steel sizer dies to prevent over-working of my brass cases--which are hard to replace and expensive when found. Undersized expander spuds are another of my pet peeves, again a biased selection skewed toward the red-coated poser bullets.

Rant off.

[StrawHat]

...I am beginning to lose affection for some of the lube-free pistol caliber sizer dies, especially the RCBS tungsten-carbide items. Most of these do WAY too much sizing, which is often heavily expanded (though not enough) by the following expander die. These dies "assume" use of jacketed bullets with a vengeance, and in a couple calibers (44 Magnum and 45 Colt) I have resorted to steel sizer dies to prevent over-working of my brass cases--...

I have found the same problem when using carbide dies. Especially in the 45 long Colt, the resulting cartridge appears to be bottle necked. Not so much with the 38 Special.

[Char-Gar]

I very much appreciate the old-school tooling, though my methods are a blended mid-point between pure handtool work and state-of-the-art cartridge making.

There are a few of the modern developments that leave me cold. I mentioned my preference against full-on progressive loading above, but another "upgrade" that I DETEST is the taper-crimp seating die. IF you plan to taper crimp, SEAT FULLY FIRST--THEN taper crimp. This goes double for cast bullet loading. I am beginning to lose affection for some of the lube-free pistol caliber sizer dies, especially the RCBS tungsten-carbide items. Most of these do WAY too much sizing, which is often heavily expanded (though not enough) by the following expander die. These dies "assume" use of jacketed bullets with a vengeance, and in a couple calibers (44 Magnum and 45 Colt) I have resorted to steel sizer dies to prevent over-working of my brass cases--which are hard to replace and expensive when found. Undersized expander spuds are another of my pet peeves, again a biased selection skewed toward the red-coated poser bullets.

Rant off.

When the tungsten carbide sizing dies first came on to the scene I thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. After several decades of use, I fell out of love with them and hunted up some vintage RCBS steel dies. These dies size the cases way less, promote longer case life and I believe give better accuracy as the rounds don't lay in the bottom of the charge holes with the bullets having an upward angle to hit the cylinder throat.

I now have good steel sizing dies (with appropriate redundancy for things that are not being made any more) in 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 45 Colt and 45 ACP.

I have also accumulated the old Lyman Shell Resizer hand FL sizing dies in all of the above calibers as well. These also give properly dimensioned sizing cases, albeit at a slow rate. I use a cheapo Harbor Freight 1 ton arbor press to do the work.

I do understand that there are now dual carbide ring sizing dies around that replicate what the old steel sizers did. But, I fail to understand why I should pay big bucks for a die that does what it's ancestors did, just to avoid case lubrication. That makes no sense to me.

As anybody who has even a slight knowledge of my habits and predilections know I do not use progress reloaders. So many the high dollar dual crimp sizers have some utility in those infernal machines, but that is just a guess on my part.

[Grapeshot]

I own a couple of 310 tools with dies for .45 Colt, .44WCF, and .45/70. I bought them just to have, just in case. However, back in 1985, while stationed in Germany, I ordered a Huntington Hand Press that used standard die sets and shell holders. I have reloaded thousands of .45 ACP, .45 Colt and several hundred .45-60WCF's while sitting in my room watching my TV or listening to my tapes or DVD's. Yes I do own an RCBS Rock Chucker and a 550b Dillon, but when the temps rise to over 80 degrees of drop into the 30's or below I don't go into my shed unless it's to get some tool or part. I hate working in a sauna or a freezer.

[Char-Gar]

No Dillon for me, but my bench is festooned with an old RCBS A2 and a forest of black Pacific presses. Even when I go to the bench to reloading, I can't get away from the old American iron.

[cbrick]

You really don't need a stinking thousand dollar progressive reloader to produce good ammo.

A thousand dollars? Really, for a press? Lucky me I've never seen a need for or wanted one.

Rick

[Char-Gar]

A thousand dollars? Really, for a press? Lucky me I've never seen a need for or wanted one.

Rick

Me neither, but I know a guy who has six of them on his bench and he is not a commercial reloader. The high end Dillon's with all the attachments, bells and whistles are quite pricey, running up to a hair over $1,600.00 a pop.

[Char-Gar]

Me neither, but I know a guy who has six of them on his bench and he is not a commercial reloader. The high end Dillon's with all the attachments, bells and whistles are quite pricey, running up to a hair over $1,600.00 a pop.

Some folks just like machinery, others think they need buckets full of ammo in the shortest possible time and still others just have way to much money to spend on such things. I fit in none of these categories.

[cbrick]

The high end Dillon's with all the attachments, bells and whistles are quite pricey, running up to a hair over $1,600.00 a pop.

$1,600.00 :veryconfu I want to "feel" the primer coming out, how else ya gonna know if the pocket is getting loose. I want to "feel" the case being sized. I want to "feel" the boolit being seated. I want to feel these things on every single round I make. I competed for 30 years and for many of those years was shooting hundreds of rounds a month, many tens of thousands of rounds total and I felt every one of those things on every round.

I have never once in my life gone into my loading room to be in a hurry and I have never once tried to see how many rounds an hour I could do. I guess it's lucky for Mike Dillon that's just me huh?

Rick

[Char-Gar]

Mike..."Back in the day" when they could be had for $50 to $60, I had four Colt New Service sixguns in 45 Colt. But, when I went back to school in 1970, they were all sold to help with expenses. I have missed them very much and when I started looking again about 9 years ago, they were quite high. It took me several years to find one in good shooting condition at a price I could tolerate and that is the sixgun in the pic. It is not going anywhere, until they ship me off to the home and take away my guns. That will be a sad day for them and me and I won't go easy into that good night!

Come on Grandad, you have to understand you get older now, need constant care and the guns scare the attendants. Bull S^&%, I cry!

[BruceB]

$1,600.00 :veryconfu I want to "feel" the primer coming out, how else ya gonna know if the pocket is getting loose. I want to "feel" the case being sized. I want to "feel" the boolit being seated. I want to feel these things on every single round I make.
Rick

Believe this or not, as you choose.

BUT.... with a bit of experience, and PAYING ATTENTION, one can indeed feel all those things on a 550 press.

The effort of de-priming is unimportant to me. What IS important in detecting loose primer pockets is SEATING pressure, and that is easily felt on the 550 because nothing else is going on at that point in the stroke.... just like a C-press. It's very easy to remove a case with a loose primer pocket from the press.

The various functions occur in such a way that all are easily felt. If anything feels "wrong", it's time to stop and find out why.

I never go to the bench in a hurry, either. I do MANY things beside operating that Dillon press. I cast bullets, with all that entails. I load on a variety of presses, besides the Dillon. I modify brass for various reasons and purposes. the beat goes on.....

What the Dillon press does for me is allow me to produce more good ammo in a shorter period of time. SOME shooting activities, like it or not, require large quantities of ammunition. I was an active Bullseye shooter for many years, and our club even bought a Star Universal loader just for .38 Specials. I wish that I'd had the Dillon back then; it would have eased my shooting life considerably.

If you don't like Dillons, or the concept of producing LOTS of rounds in short order, that's just fine. However, what I'm seeing here is some folks looking down their noses or sneering at those of us who have availed ourselves of the technology available to make SOME parts of our shooting activities a whole lot easier.
Let's not forget that we are all in the same (somewhat leaky) boat.

Mike Dillon deserves his success.

[Green Frog]

Thread drift alert!!!

This started out as a thread about the joys of casually loading with a 310 Hand Tool. Although at the side it took a bit of a poke at "The Boys Using Blue" and others of the "Progressive School" of reloading, it is a thread about Hand Tools on the Forum about Hand Tools. All this buzz about how well the Dillon™ and other progressives work is so much static on this particular thread.

I have both a Dillon 550™ and a Star Progressive™ as well as a RCBS Jr™ and a Lyman All American, so I am fully aware of the great potential of bigger, more modern bench presses. I still like to go back to basics occasionally with my variety of Ideal #3 & #10 and Lyman 310 Tools. Why? Because I enjoy it! If you can't even admit that there is still a place in reloading for Hand Tools, what the @#*^% are you reading this forum for anyway?

Rant over,
Green Frog

[cbrick]

SOME shooting activities, like it or not, require large quantities of ammunition. I was an active Bullseye shooter for many years, and our club even bought a Star Universal loader just for .38 Specials. I wish that I'd had the Dillon back then; it would have eased my shooting life considerably.

If you don't like Dillons, or the concept of producing LOTS of rounds in short order, that's just fine. However, what I'm seeing here is some folks looking down their noses or sneering at those of us who have availed ourselves of the technology available to make SOME parts of our shooting activities a whole lot easier.

I understand there is a place for them and that some shooting sports do need higher production at the loading bench. I wonder though how many of them in use have nothing to do with high volume shooting sports.

No looking down my nose, I have nothing what so ever against them other than they aren't for me just like a fully automatic Magma Master Caster isn't for me. I have always heard they are a well built machine but I saw no need when I was competing so with the few hundred rounds a year I now seem to be shooting I sure don't need one now. If you enjoy yours I think that's a fine thing. All I meant by bringing up Dillon's name was that it's good for him that everybody doesn't look at it like I do. Don't ya think?

Then of course there is that this is the "hand tool" forum, not the automated machine forum. :mrgreen:

Rick

[Char-Gar]

I will plead guilty to taking a little back hand swipe at the blue boys. It was intended to be good natured, as I really don't give a hoot (or whatever) others like to load with. I didn't think anybody would take that silliness serious and feel the need to defend their choice. Progressive loaders have their place in the scheme of things, just not on my loading bench.

Therefore premises considered, I do truly and heartily repent of my sin, the memory of it is grievous unto me. Now can we get back to old school reloading?

[Springfield]

Since my Dillon 550's require me to pull the handle on every round and I have to place the brass on the carrier and I have to hand place the bullet on the case, how is my Dillon any less a "hand tool' then a 310? I COULD get a brass feeder and even an after- market bullet feeder, but I choose not to. Seems to me a base 550 is just a more complicated hand tool, nothing automated about it. Certainly no electricity required.

[Char-Gar]

Since my Dillon 550's require me to pull the handle on every round and I have to place the brass on the carrier and I have to hand place the bullet on the case, how is my Dillon any less a "hand tool' then a 310? I COULD get a brass feeder and even an after- market bullet feeder, but I choose not to. Seems to me a base 550 is just a more complicated hand tool, nothing automated about it. Certainly no electricity required.

You hold a hand tool in your hand to use it. A bench tool is mounted on the bench to use it. This basic understanding takes the Dillon and any bench press out of the hand tool category.

This thread is getting a little weird!

[9.3X62AL]

This thread is getting a little weird!

Just a little.

No intention on my part to disparage the Blue Machines--they are superb mechanisms for those who choose to herd such beasts. Only a few of my calibers are here in numbers large enough to justify going progressive, and as said before there is just too much going on at once with a fully-progressive system for me to be comfy with the process or its products.

[Green Frog]

Since my Dillon 550's require me to pull the handle on every round and I have to place the brass on the carrier and I have to hand place the bullet on the case, how is my Dillon any less a "hand tool' then a 310? I COULD get a brass feeder and even an after- market bullet feeder, but I choose not to. Seems to me a base 550 is just a more complicated hand tool, nothing automated about it. Certainly no electricity required.

When you hold your Dillon 550 in your hand and operate it (preferably in the Kitchen) then you can call it a hand tool. You are still by definition "hand loading" because you are doing it yourself with hand power, but there is no way to stretch the definition of hand tool enough to encompass that Dillon. Again, let's use this particular forum to talk about the use of Hand Tools to Reload, like the title says. There are lots of other forums to talk about other types of reloading and the equipment it entails.

Green Frog

[Green Frog]

I'm sort of surprised Froggie has not PM'd about that Powder measure I was trying to rib him about.

I'm planning on using that kind of powder measure as a hand tool... holding it over each shell in the tray and operating the rotor knob. No PM needed though, 'cause I hope I'm already first on your list. :mrgreen:

Froggie

[Green Frog]

Well, as luck would have it, I ran into a deal on an odd bunch of NOS Little Dandy rotors at the Fishersville, VA gun show today. I was able to close the gaps and complete my set of rotors from #00 to #26. Now all I need is one of the custom, adjustable units from BaileyBoats so I have complete overkill! :mrgreen:

I've also gotten a complete set of rotors assembled for the Lyman AccuMeasure, which was a good thing, since that item is long discontinued. It does look good on top of my Lyman All American on the Lyman "Through the Expander" Powder Die.

Now I get to spend some quality time with my lathe making rotors for the Pacific Pistol Powder Measure since the chances of finding original ones I need are somewhere between slim and none! :-? I'm sure looking forward to using that measure as part of my grand scheme, though! :bigsmyl2:

Froggie

[9.3X62AL]

wooohooo Froggie get to play with a new toy.

This sort of event makes most of us pretty ecstatic. I know I'm sure enjoying my rebored Win 94 in 38-55, and my S&W Bekeart 22 LR revolver. Finally--an I/J frame with OEM grips that actually fit my hands.

[Speedo66]

Used this recently to load a box of 50. Slow, but can't say I didn't enjoy it. Came across it in one of my boxes, and thought I'd just deprime one case. Next thing 'ya know, I finished the box. Well, might as well prime them. And put some powder in them. Hey, might as well finish 'em.

Old, but still worked fine. Funny to be holding something used by who knows how many. Not a 310, but a direct descendant.

[Wayne Smith]

Hey, Froggie, I didn't know you have a lathe. When you get on it and make those bushings for the Pacific Pistol Power measure please make two of each and send me a set? I've got one official and several I've cobbled up but I'm just drilling holes in half inch brass. Not even well centered so I can't do the ones that are very thin.

PS: when I got mine the aluminum slide was broken. Buckshot made me a very nice steel slide.

[Green Frog]

Wrong Pacific Pistol Measure, Wayne... the one I got from my new e-friend SgtMike is the old style that uses a rotor like the Little Dandy™ only smaller (hence its attractiveness for tiny charges.) It sounds like you got the later, slide type measure that just uses different bushings within the same slide, right? :?:

Froggie

[Wayne Smith]

Yup. That's the one. Although I have a Bair Pistol Powder measure that uses a similar system, and I think yours may be the same, just later after Pacific bought Bair?

[Green Frog]

Nope, different beast. See PM.

Froggie

PS Here's a picture of a good example of the type I got... mine's not quite so pristine, but it's complete and it works well. :)

[EddieNFL]

You really don't need a stinking thousand dollar progressive reloader to produce good ammo.





Where as I agree with you on that point...try telling it to anyone who owns a Dillon...:drinks:

Why not agree all tools have a use?

I have nine presses covering virtually every type. I thoroughly enjoy using old tools too load certain cartridges. I've also fired in excess of 50K .45 ACP in 12 months (on more than one occasion). I didn't use a hand press...or a single stage.

[doc1876]

Don't know if it matters, but over 40 yrs ago, I got an old Ideal in 44-40. it set in drawers and closets until two years ago when I decided to start loading for my .45 colt. Well later I got Henry from Uberti, and needed to reload 44-40s for it. I got a set of Lyman dies for my reloader, and could not get that thing to load them no way shape or form. Everyone I talked to said that 44-40s are the worst to reload, and I agreed............well, I got that old Ideal hand loader down, and tried it to see what the difference was, and when I got done with it. I was able to see where my mistakes were, and reset the Lyman, and now off and running
The moral is that some times the old ways are there to teach, and I am glad I listened.

[doc1876]

Mike..."Back in the day" when they could be had for $50 to $60, I had four Colt New Service sixguns in 45 Colt. But, when I went back to school in 1970, they were all sold to help with expenses. I have missed them very much and when I started looking again about 9 years ago, they were quite high. It took me several years to find one in good shooting condition at a price I could tolerate and that is the sixgun in the pic. It is not going anywhere, until they ship me off to the home and take away my guns. That will be a sad day for them and me and I won't go easy into that good night!

Come on Grandad, you have to understand you get older now, need constant care and the guns scare the attendants. Bull S^&%, I cry!


Yea, my kids are scared for that day to come too. great laugh, thanks

[Green Frog]

doc1876,

I think if everyone would load a few hundred rounds with a Lyman 310 Tool™ or even one of the single stage C-type presses and have to adjust everything from scratch to make it work, they would understand and be able to troubleshoot the turrets and progressives much more easily. Seeing each step through one at a time may be a little old fashioned and is certainly a little slow, but the knowledge curve that comes with it is pretty impressive. BTW, I started out on a TruLine Jr and tong tools sometime in the early '70s and still actively use both, along with some progressives and full sized "modern" presses. Gotta get back to my roots every now and again! :wink:

Froggie

"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left!"

[goofyoldfart]

well now, I have enjoyed these 5 pages. I started with Lee whackem and 310 tong tools (8mm and 38sp, respectively). it was all I could afford at the time. It taught me the mechanics of the process and allowed me to have a lot of fun shooting. Yea, as later years came around I bought 2 single stages and had another given to me. then I found a deal on a couple of OLD turrent presses. Funny thing though, I never quit using the old stuff and still do. Now that I'm retired and on S.S. I can't afford the new fangled stuff, hell I can barely afford powder, primers and brass. (got several buddies that keep me topped off with lead, though--God Bless 'em). BUT, I do understand those that use the high production presses no matter what the color. I shot competition for 25 years and I busted my butt to keep in loaded ammo with my turrent presses. So, yea Bruce (and others), I definately know where you are coming from and can appreciate your point of view. But today, I am no longer shooting comp and being disabled, I really enjoy the time that I have with the old stuff. It's relaxing and brings back some precious moments. As we all reload--I respect all who do so no matter what equipment we use. I just derive alot of pleasure doing the old and slow. If it ever comes down to a SHTF situation, well I have enough ammo factory produced to hit the firing line and I can still hit what I shoot at. If that situation comes about, well, there is the NVA quartermaster system and let the enemy supply the loads. Don't think I would survive long term, But I would hope to be ONE EXPENSIVE B**TARD to take out. Not afraid to die, God loves me. But would like to have a little longer to be an old man using some neat and fun old tools.

May God Bless each and every one of you and yours. Goofy aka Godfrey.

[9.3X62AL]

Well written, Goof. In Nevada in recent days, a group of folks that decided to become "Expensive Bar Stads To Take Out" caused some Federal Freddies to re-examine their goals in animal husbandry. I suspect this incident won't be the last chapter written in this story, or the last story told on this theme. Our local--county--state--and Federal governments are sorely in need of re-learning their places in the lives of the citizens that employ them. "Taxpayer" and "citizen" differ MARKEDLY from "subject" or "chattel slave", and the time may come when we will be required to do some teaching.