The Eyes Are Always The SECOND Thing To Go... :(

[Guy La Pourque]

Well boys, I am late coming to the game but have just finalized a deal on a Uberti 45-75. I noticed in another thread that KirkD has put a fine tang site on his lever gun but I didn't want to hijack that thread or induce topic drift. Nice work BTW, KirkD! That gun is a tack driver now!

Are any of you fellas old f***s? I am getting there (closing on 50) and I am noticing what I think is a horrible decline in my ability to get along with some iron sights. I would really like to put a similar tang sight on my rifle...but is it worthwhile? I have astigmatism (in addition to premature senility)...do any of you guys suffer from this? And have you benefitted from a high end peep sight?

I saw some old-timey brass scopes awhile back offered by Leatherwood if I remember correctly...can a guy put one of those on an 1876? I know the single-shot guys have no problems with them...your two bits, as always, are sincerely appreciated...:D

[rintinglen]

Peep sights have extended my ability to shoot Iron Sighted Rifles. Like you, at age 50 I started to find iron sights increasingly fuzzy. Unlike you, I am myopic, but do not have astigmatism. I do not know how well they'll work for you. I have two rifles set up with Lymans, three with Marbles, and one that I don't remember where I got it. My Marlin CB's both have tang sights, one with Marble's and one with Lyman's, My 1893 Marlin has a Marbles as well. My Browning 53 has a marbles, while my Marlin 39A has a lyman.. I shoot much better with a tang, but I note that the size of the aperture matters if lighting conditions are sub-optimal. You need bigger if it's darker.

[KirkD]

The way the tang peep sight works is kind of like stopping down a camera to a very small aperture. The width of the beam of light entering your eye becomes very narrow, so all the imperfections across the lens outside the beam no longer mess up your picture. What was horribly blurry before becomes nice and sharp, depending upon the size of the aperture. They work so well for me (age 59) that I have installed them on all seven of my lever guns. If you just want to try one out, get a cheaper one. A hole is a hole no matter how high quality the rest of the sight is. The advantage of quality will be that the sight is tighter, less wobble and slack. I would not want to go back to open iron sights at my age.

[Guy La Pourque]

Thanks again Kirk!

So what would a fella put on a Uberti 1876? I would like one of those fully adjustable ones like the single shot guys are using...but are they practical on a lever gun? I plan to run strictly black powder loads to begin with...

[KirkD]

I have no experience with the fully adjustable ones. The elevation is easy enough to adjust but the windage is a little harder with the normal tang sights. I usually use very thin sheet metal shims to do the final windage adjustments, then crank down the tang screws.

[Hurricane]

When you get your peep sight, get a large hole in the peep or just take the peep out of the sight. It will be just as accurate and much faster that working with a small peep hole.

[North_of_60]

I had given up on iron sights and thought I was stuck with scopes until I discovered peep sights. I am near sighted with astigmatism and wear trifocals. You can get good accuracy with a peep sight. With a little practice you will be shooting almost as good as with a scope.

I have a Williams receiver sight on my 1895 Winchester and it works great. I wish I would have spent a few extra $ and went with the remake of the Lyman 21 (http://www.buffaloarms.com/providence_tool_company_target_and_iron_sights_pr-4096.aspx) the photo shows it on a 1895 Winchester but they sell them for most Winchesters. Your Uberti is probably already drilled and tapped for a reveiver sight.

I didn't go with the tang sight becasue I thought it lacked windage adjustment, it mounts behind the hammer and too close to my face for my liking.

I thought it was the memory that was the second thing to go. I had forgotten about my eyes. Enjoy your new rifle.

Al

[Scharfschuetze]

See an optometrist for an eye exam. He will be more than familiar with "presbyopia," the hardening of the eye's lens with age and the reason for loosing your near vision. Tell him your requirement of seeing your front sight at say 34" or whatever your measurement is. Have the lenses made of shatter resistant polycarbonate and you'll be in business. Before I retired last year, the army optometrists were always good about doing this for me and I still have two good sets of "shooting glasses." Any astigmatism can be adjusted for with the lenses too.

I'm in my early 60s and with the proper prescription lenses, I'm still able to shoot all my rifles and pistols with iron sights well. Accept the fact that your target will be a bit fuzzy; but hey, it should be that way anyway if you are focusing on the front sight as is usually the case for good iron sight accuracy.

+1 on using aperture sights to help and if your peep sight will accept different aperture disks, it should also accept a "Merit Disk." With it you'll be able to further refine your visual acuity by adjusting its diameter for various light conditions, your ocular distance from the sight as well as any peculiarities of your individual eye. It works like a film camera's iris and you can "F-stop it" to maximize the clarity of the front sight.

Many National Match shooters are now using aperture disks that actually contain a lens to help them focus on the front sight. They are legal for both the service rifle and the any rifle classes. I shot with one on a match AR-15 last week and it's amazing how well they work. Perhaps they are not fitting aesthetically for an old lever rifle like the OP's Uberti, but they may be an option for others using peep sights.

[fouronesix]

Guy La Pourque,

On a 76 I think you'd have to mount a scope either way high and/or offset to the side OR out in front of the receiver like a scout scope. Offset or high just won't work very well for shooting form or cheek weld. A LER scout scope would work fine but just doesn't seem right somehow. :)

The tang mounted sights are plenty original to the 76 era and most Winchester 76s came with the tangs D&T'd for mounting them. I have an early Lyman tang aperture on one of my 76s. It works fine once you get used to it being there. The staff is forward on the tang. I'll try to take a pic and post it tomorrow to show how a 76 looks with a Lyman tang peep sight mounted.

In all cases, I've found an aperture sight to help accurate shooting.

[Artful]

It's going to depend upon your eye sight but look into aperture addition for use with iron sights
http://www.meritcorporation.com/index-2.html
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?89628-Does-anyone-use-the-Merit-aperture
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/07/diopter-devices-aid-old-eyes/

http://www.bullseyegear.com/bullseyepistolreviews/?page_id=32

[Guy La Pourque]

Yeah...I guess a scope is out of the question - the empties flip straight up on these guns don't they?

I am pleased as punch, my rifle arrived yesterday!!!

[ironhead7544]

A tang sight will work just fine. Get one that will take an adjustable aperture.

You can also make an aperture from electrical tape to put on your glasses. You will have to experiment to get the right sized hole for you. Makes a big difference. I put mine a little high up to allow normal vision, then tip my head a little to see through the hole.

[Guy La Pourque]

Question again fellas.

All the crank-powered rifles here seem to be aimed with sights like this:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Lyman_Tang_Sights_it-160936.aspx?CAT=4068

I would like to go to a sight like this:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Kelley_Sights_pr-4622.aspx

Are the more complex sights suitable for the leverguns?

[waksupi]

I also have fading eye sight. I cured a lot of it by widening the rear sight notches, so I have light showing on both sides of the front sight.

[fouronesix]

I would like to go to a sight like this:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Kelley_Sights_pr-4622.aspx

Are the more complex sights suitable for the leverguns?

Whoaah!- that Kelley is way too much for the lever gun. These lever guns aren't really long range BPCR shooters and never were. While you could probably get it to somehow mount and it would be usable to some degree, it is overkill for what most lever guns can do or were ever designed to do.

The simple Lyman tang sight is very usable and while it is only adjustable for elevation- it's no problem since you can either drift the front sight a little bit for windage or as I think KirkD pointed out, simply shim one side of the base or the other for some correction. Matter of fact when mounting any tang sight it's best to plumb it to vertical with the basic bore line/action vertical of the gun- using a level and string and thin shim stock to do this is pretty simple. The Lyman tang sight along with a standard height front sight, should give plenty of elevation for any distance practical for the rifle. You can talk to Buffalo Arms directly to find which current Lyman model is best suited for the Uberti 76. There are other tang sights similar to the Lyman, Marbles I think is one, that also have windage adjustability- again ask Buffalo Arms about that type and if available for the 76.

[fouronesix]

I don't know what type barrel sight your rifle has but here's another possibility if it has a regular type barrel sight. Mount a carbine ladder sight. There are repro carbine type sights available. And, if it has a fairly wide blade you could even drill a small hole in it and use it like a Trapdoor Buffington sight and they work very well, by the way.

In any case, it may be a good idea to load up some and get a reasonable load going before spending a bunch of $ and fretting on a "best" sight. Put up a 3"-6" black bull target out at 50 yards and shoot off the bags when working on a load. Once comfortable with loading, shooting, cycling, handling, etc. and after a decent load it found... then spend the money and effort on the sights. Just a thought to maybe save some frustration.

Here's a 76 carbine with the carbine ladder flipped up. It's an original so no holes drilled! :)

[Guy La Pourque]

Thanks for that 416! I am not arguing with you - I am asking because I am new and don't know:

Why can't these levers go head to head with the single shots? Is it because the barrels are lighter? What is good accuracy out of a properly tuned and tweaked levergun shooting black powder? The more I think about this the more I want to avoid smokeless or black powder substitutes.

I am kind of ticked off - I visited all the gun shops to get supplies and they all let me down - even Cabelas! I am going to place an order with Buffalo on Monday. Looks like I'm gonna have to hurry up and wait to shoot! :(

[fouronesix]

I know what you mean about supply. Shopping local is always a good idea but most local retailers only stock and know about the most popular items and the current market and that includes even larger gun stores--- not 135 year old stuff like we're talking. As an odd side note I live fairly close to a fairly large independent wholesale Mom and Pop powder and components guy who travels to a lot of gunshows and supplies most of the local independent gun store retailers. A few years ago I was in his place shooting the breeze and asked if he had any 45-75 brass. Good grief, he happened to have 200 Jamison cases!! I'd bet no one within a couple hundred mile radius even has a 45-75 and about that many even know what the 45-75 is! So ya never know.

Cabelas is a large retailer that doesn't specialize in a diversity of shooting stuff, so I usually don't bother looking to them. I'll first check Midway, Graf or Midsouth. Then for really specialty items I'll check with Buffalo Arms. Once in a while even fleabay or Gunbroker or other sources will turn up odd, hard to find items. And of course local gunshows sometimes- but more and more the gunshow pickins for old stuff gets slimmer and slimmer. I even found some original Sharps barrel band springs at Dixie a few years ago.

Anyway, about the basic blackpowder era lever rifle vs the blackpowder era single shot. The basic lever platform simply won't support nor was designed for the degree accuracy achievable with the big, heavy barreled target single shots. By design, the lever rifle was supposed to be a handy repeater as opposed to the "purpose" of the single shot... long range accuracy. Since Sharps and other makers were dominating the buffalo hunting market in the post Civil War era, Winchester needed to compete quickly so they re-designed the 73 by scaling up. The 76 design (size) was about as large as practical but wouldn't quite handle the 45-70 length. Winchester decided two 45 cal cartridges (45-60, 45-75) along with the 50-95 Express would work in the 76. No one knows why the 40-60 was chambered in the 76. While not ideal for hunting buffalo at long range, there's no doubt that Win 76s did account for some at more reasonable ranges. Enter Browning and a new beefier lever design that could handle the 45-70- the M1886. But by that time most of the buffalo hunting was over.

Accuracy potential is going to depend on a lot of things, not to mention definition of accuracy. There's no doubt that my 76s can hit a 24" metal plate at 300 yards every time from a rest. At 50 yards the 76 will shoot less than 1" cluster groups and consistently less than 3" at 100 yards. To me that's good shooting from a 135 year old lever gun. But I also know that shooting about 6-7 MOA at 300 yards isn't much compared to my best shooting Sharps which is a 1 MOA rifle (3" groups) at that range. But the big Sharps is not a slick action repeater, carry gun either.

[brassrat]

I met and bought off this old gentleman a couple times. http://www.eyepalusa.com/. Here in ct. now, I can't, anymore, because the gun shows are more/less ended. He has these stick-ons and I love em. I just keep them on a pair of shooting glasses. One on each lense, for rifle and pistol. I soap and wash the glasses often and they stay. Everything clear + the target.

[double8]

Just you wait 'til you are over 70.............closing on 50? You sir, are just a kid. I guess I really am an old f***

[Guy La Pourque]

I am kinda thinking that either Murphy, the devil or Darwin will have me by then, 008. The shooting world will mourn my loss, let me assure you! ;)

[FromTheWoods]

Like KirkD, my eyes are 59 years old. In the past ten years, all of my old Winchesters have began sporting Marble's tang sights. (All except for two: my Great-grandfather's 73--we are leaving it as he had it, and we have a .25-35 equipped with an old, long scope.) We hunt with our old rifles, so I find the spring in the Marble sight to be beneficial--a slight pressing down on the sight, then release, and it pops up into position. Our .38-55 does have a Marbles that doesn't have the spring, but we surely can't have everything in life to be perfect for us!

Do try a tang sight on your rifle: it will likely work well for you.

[double8]

At 70+, I'm thinking of a tang sight for my 1902 1886 Winchester Extra Light 45-70. The groups are getting bigger and bigger...and it's starting to hurt my shoulder.

[jlchucker]

Just you wait 'til you are over 70.............closing on 50? You sir, are just a kid. I guess I really am an old f***

One qualifies for the honorable title of "Geezer" at age 65. When you get to 70, you've achieved "Geezer Emeritus". :)

[double8]

One qualifies for the honorable title of "Geezer" at age 65. When you get to 70, you've achieved "Geezer Emeritus". :)

Ha!
Then I am able to use my new Avatar.

[Catch]

I got you all beat. I will be 80 in about 25 days. I eat my dessert first. All these guys are all giving you good advice. You might look at the Marble tang sight as it is adjustable for wind age. Spend some time no matter what sight you choose and try different size holes in black construction paper put on your glasses with a paper clip. When you find the right one, it is a pleasant surprise. I don' think you would be happy with the scope. Take some time and find the right size hole and you will be amazed. Have a great time!

[jlchucker]

Ha!
Then I am able to use my new Avatar.

Geezer Emeritus! You are indeed a gentleman of distinction :)!

[double8]

And......I'm still buying my bananas by the bunch!