new member - Lee Loader supplies question

[RogerDat]

I am a casual target shooter, as is my wife. I pick up my brass when we, or the kids target shoot thinking someday I might want to reload it, can always scrap it, and no one else should have to clean up our mess. Moving a bunch of lead blocks in the garage that I mostly use as weights to hold stuff for gluing reminded me that I had also always wanted to try casting my own bullets. Decided it was time especially since I have moved those crates of lead at least twice in the last 15 years. If I'm going to cast I have to be able to load em so....

Started me doing research online on what was required and involved in FINALLY taking a shot at doing this. That led me looking at a Lee progressive, or classic O style pressess and dies and such. When I calculated the cost of equipment it started to look like a no-go. Then a video on using the Lee Classic Loader to load 303 British (another caliber of interest) showed me another approach. I am most grateful to that poster. The kit should bring the cost of reloading my spent brass down to half price. Figured if someone offered me those boxes of ammo at 1/2 price I would buy them. Kit plus supplies gets the cost down in that range for the first batch.

So now I am the proud owner of a neat little kit, which frankly had me hooked by the time I de-primed my first 50 spent cases. Now I need some advice on what supplies I should order so I can finish a few rounds and try them out. Was too impatient to wait for supplies before trying it out on the first step. ;)

Bullets - are hard cast and lubed a good choice? Selection is of course pretty poor right now but for a noob there is a bewildering array even in what is left. I would normally by round nosed or semi-wad cutter. Mostly 156 gr. I tend to think it is important to practice with the same round that would be in the chamber if my wife ever had to use it for self defense. Keeping cost low is also important. These will be fired from a short barrel which might influence suggestions.

Case Lube - I should probably purchase some. Would snow seal wax, or candle wax be fine? Any reason to not just purchase the Lee case lube if I'm going with store bought? Do I have to clean the case post production to get the lube off?

Powder - Clearly there are some very experienced handloaders on the site with some well thought out and developed formulas. Just getting started I need to stick with what included Lee measure is designed to use. If anyone has one of these kits in 45 Long Colt I would be interested in finding out if there are any powders that are in both 45 LC and 38 special, or in the .357 kit. I can narrow down the powder depending on the projectile style and weight. If I can use the same powder with the next kit it would be a nice bonus.

Primers - I know many people have a personal "best" or "worst" but I'm really looking to avoid any that are common knowledge to be sub par. Or especially touchy to work with.

Sources - Midway, Cabelas are the two I know of, have no idea what is involved with getting that stuff shipped, or purchasing online. Looking for good places to order from so if there are suggestions for the supplies a link to a source would be appreciated.

Case Cleaning - I think I have seen reference to mineral spirits to just give the cases a quick wipe down. If there is some other common solvent that would be good for cleaning I would welcome hearing of it. Or confirmation that mineral spirits is OK to use.

If loading works out OK I'll then start in on turning blocks of lead into something useful, if it does not work out I can at least sell some of the lead to someone that will put it to use.

[dbosman]

I hope you like options and opinions. In the short term, read the stickies.
Slugging -your- guns will help you select the right cast bollit size.

Regarding sizing lube. Any container of case sizing lube will last a LONG time. Imperial Case Sizing Wax comes in a 2 oz tin and many are still using the same tin thousands of rounds later. I use lanolin. I put a dab on my hands and rub it in for a nice moisturizing and as I handle the cases enough comes off to lube it.
Personally, I like size and then tumble to clean the lube off.

Powder is an annoyance at present. Unique would serve all your needs reasonably well - if you can find any. Really well for some cartridges. You may have to let us know what is available to you, in your area.

Primers pretty much all go bang. What is available in your area will determine what you use, for now.
There is a $27.50 hazmat fee for powder and primers so unless you and some buddies can go in on a group purchase, you're going to be stuck with what you can get for a while.

Case Cleaning - isn't a necessity. Most of us like shiny cases though. Water and soap works great. Everything else is nice but not necesary. Some put cases in a mesh bag and run them through a dish washer or even in a regular laundry load. Dry, absolutely dry is the only requirement.

As to sources, several are backers for this site. Their banners are at the top. Please let them know you found them here.

Reloading is going to work our well for you, especially since you found this site.
There are no stupid questions. Yes, there are some that have been asked fourteen thousand times before, but that's why we'll suggest reading the stickies.

Before and as you prep your cases read as many reloading manuals as you can purchase, borrow, check out, or download. Take the source into account. All powder manufacturers have free manuals - either paper or online or both. Use suggested loads and only suggested loads until you are comfortable enough to consider them very rigid suggestions instead of exact recipes to be followed.

Have fun, but be SAFE.

[jmort]

Unique works for everything. I get flaring tools for my Lee Loaders.
http://leeprecision.com/custom-flaring-tool-for-lee-loader.html

[RogerDat]

I hope you like options and opinions. In the short term, read the stickies.
Slugging -your- guns will help you select the right cast bollit size.

Regarding sizing lube. Any container of case sizing lube will last a LONG time. Imperial Case Sizing Wax comes in a 2 oz tin and many are still using the same tin thousands of rounds later. I use lanolin. I put a dab on my hands and rub it in for a nice moisturizing and as I handle the cases enough comes off to lube it.
Personally, I like size and then tumble to clean the lube off.

Powder is an annoyance at present. Unique would serve all your needs reasonably well - if you can find any. Really well for some cartridges. You may have to let us know what is available to you, in your area.

Primers pretty much all go bang. What is available in your area will determine what you use, for now.
There is a $27.50 hazmat fee for powder and primers so unless you and some buddies can go in on a group purchase, you're going to be stuck with what you can get for a while.

Case Cleaning - isn't a necessity. Most of us like shiny cases though. Water and soap works great. Everything else is nice but not necesary. Some put cases in a mesh bag and run them through a dish washer or even in a regular laundry load. Dry, absolutely dry is the only requirement.

As to sources, several are backers for this site. Their banners are at the top. Please let them know you found them here. ...



.....Have fun, but be SAFE.

thanks for the reply - we are in the same neck of the woods, I'm over in the Fowlerville area. Only place I know locally that has supplies might be Cabelas, don't know what the Powder Keg in Howell or Guns Galore up in Fenton carries for reloading. If you know of anything local I would be interested. Does Cabelas have ship to store to avoid the Hazmat fee? Or carry much stock on hand at the one down US 23?

Unique is only listed on the Lee Loader card for XTP bullets. Vihtavuori is the most common one listed, N350,340,320, 3N37. IMR Trail Bos & PB gets listed once each, SR4756 a couple of times. With the provided .5 dipper yields 4.6 grains of Unique. Most combinations are supposed to yield a velocity of ~ 1000 fps. with a few in the 900's and a few in the 1100's fps.

I'm not going to cast the first batch of bullets I reload, going store bought for those. So will probably purchase in stock .357 but slugging before purchase of dies would be a good idea. Will probably be required for the two 303 Enfields. But the 303 is last on my list of reloading goals.

Thinking of this item http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046282252/hunters-supply-hard-cast-bullets-38-caliber-357-diameter-158-grain-lead-round-nose which is called "hard cast". Or this http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00051504&clicks=BOX1&clitem=00051504

Forgot about MidSouth so banner link is good reminder.

Tumble clean is equipment I don't have so it's all by hand at this point. It's ok though, I like working with my hands. Hmmm Honey are my bullets done in the dishwasher? She does know how to shoot so while a good suggestion it would have to wait until she went to visit family for a couple of days.

[RogerDat]

Unique works for everything. I get flaring tools for my Lee Loaders.
http://leeprecision.com/custom-flaring-tool-for-lee-loader.html

Thanks for the direct link, mighty thoughtful. One of those was included in my Lee Loader kit.

[RogerDat]

So far online the only source that has a powder type listed in the Lee Loader kit card of starting loads has some IMR PB in stock. And CCI primers. Does the fact that this powder is listed by Lee as having a low velocity (with 110 XTP) mean it is a slow burning powder? or fast burning?

Found one source of IMR 4756 but since they are out of primers can't order both and only have to eat the hazmat shipping fee once. And if I don't purchase local there goes a big chunk of savings. There is a gun show in the area this week end, never really noticed if much powder or projectiles are for sale at those events. Have just never been in the market for these supplies so never paid much attention to it.

[Dave Bulla]

Two additional items you should keep an eye out for are: 1) a balance beam scale and 2) a 6" caliper either dial or digital.

You can get a digital for less than a dial these days and both work but I like the dial type. Mine is a Mitutoyo and new it runs around $150 but you can find them used on line for $50 or so. There are cheap versions from places like Harbor Freight but I prefer to spend a little extra and get one that I'll never have to replace.

Scales are mostly made by one or two manufacturers with various reloading company names on them. Ohaus is probably the big name in reloading scales and they make for Lyman, RCBS, Dillon etc.

If you spend some time on ebay and select some likely items to watch then see what they sell for you will get a better idea of what is a good deal or isn't. You can also search completed items. There are a lot of ways to save money buying used but there are also a lot of people who are buying all the cheap stuff then trying to flip it for a profit.

To get supplies that normally have hazmat fees such as primers and powder, go to your local Cabela's and go back to the catalog order department. Order what you think you need and if it's on backorder, so be it but order it to the store for pickup. You can try to get something in stock but if the powder you really want is on backorder, it's best to just get on the list. That way you don't pay the hazmat fees or the shipping, but you will pay sales tax. I think you might be able to do that from home via their website but I'm not certain.

[dbosman]

Rogerdat and any other Michiganders, the next gun and knife show in Mason - is tomorrow through Sunday.
http://www.migunshows.com/maspage.html

I've no idea what to expect. Particularly since I planned on going next week. ;-)
It was - past tense - scheduled for Thanksgiving weekend. I'm glad your post made me look it up today.

As to boolits, next time you're planning on being near East Lansing, drop me a line ahead of time. I'll give you some spare round chunks of lead. Warning - some of them have a waxy substance in a ring around the base. Some measure right around .312 which might work in your .303.
Presuming I find it, I can give you some lanolin. I haven't sized anything in a steel die in a quite a while so it might take some looking.

Dave Bulla is right. You'll want a scale. Particularly since you plan on rifle reloading.
I tend to forget about that tool as I use a RCBS Little Dandy to charge pistol cartridges.

[RogerDat]

Two additional items you should keep an eye out for are: 1) a balance beam scale and 2) a 6" caliper either dial or digital.....

If you spend some time on ebay and select some likely items to watch then see what they sell for you will get a better idea of what is a good deal or isn't.....

To get supplies that normally have hazmat fees such as primers and powder, go to your local Cabela's and go back to the catalog order department. Order what you think you need and if it's on backorder, so be it but order it to the store for pickup..... ....I think you might be able to do that from home via their website but I'm not certain.

Scale was on my list for something to get, would like to weigh completed rounds just to be assured all are within specs. Figured doing one at a time, and being careful I could get away without one for now. From what I have read here scale is almost required to check a cast boolit. Have caliper, but those tiny numbers are getting hard to read. Might have to break down and go digital.

I thought electric scales were the thing to get, why balance beam?

I don't "do" ebay but that sounds like a good tip to scope out prices.

Cabela's does not list reloading powder that I could find on the website, just muzzle loading. Good to know I can go there to order, it is a bit of a drive but my daughter and grandson are on the way so I can combine the trip.

[dbosman]

A decent digital scale for powder or bullets or boolits is not cheap. Cheap electronic scales are not capable of enough repeatable accuracy for our needs. A decent balance beam scale that has repeatable accuracy works, even if you need to factor in a +or- adjustment.

A lot of shooters have never weighed a bullet of any kind.

Not doing eBay is generally a good thing. It is a very good indication of the average price for used items. For a patient person it can be a great place to find a bargain. But it's a great way to over spend for someone elses junk.

If you're referring to the Cabela's in Dundee, plan for some time for awe, there. It's big. Bob's in Hastings, and Guns Galore in Fenton are also big. Bob's has spaces on the shelves for a lot of merchandise. Many of those spaces were empty when I was last there. In Lansing, Classic Arms had about thirty bottles of powder on the shelves. Primers are by the box not case.

[RogerDat]

Bosman you are a gentleman and a scholar. I do love to break that Enfield out.
1). because I feel like I'm holding and using a piece of history. 2). Thing sounds like the wrath of an especially angry god going off. Big booms are always fun.
Would be a real treat to fire ammo I made myself. I can certainly swap you some bar lead for your lead.

I'm in E. Lansing 5 days a week for work could PM you on the board (I think) and maybe hook up for lunch. I may take a couple of hours personal time to hit that show Friday. See what I can find, who knows might find the rest of what I need to assemble my first bullet.

I do try to avoid being one of those people that buy a bunch of gear or tools when they are just getting started and really have no clue. Get started small, gain some knowledge, then figure out what I really need. The information you members are providing is a key step in that "gain a little knowledge". I'm guessing my first casting will involve purchase of an ingot mold, and pot from walmart.

Good to know about the scale, probably saved me wasting money on cheap digital scale.

[Wayne Smith]

One thing you absolutely will need and may as well look for is a bullet puller. You WILL make mistakes. I am 60, have been reloading since I was 16, and just pulled 150 .40 S&W that I inadvertently loaded with RE13! When we are confident we make mistakes wholesale!

Anything RCBS that is mechanical they will replace if it is broken or non-functional. It's just like the Craftsman guarantee - I don't know how many broken Craftsman screwdrivers I've picked up and turned in for a new one.

[Larry Gibson]

RogerDat

Excellent way to start reloading, I started that way myself in the early ‘60s.

A couple tips;

Get;
One of the larger MTM storage boxes, one with an internal tray, as it will hold all your reloading stuff.

A plastic headed mallet. These are available at most hardware/lumber yards.

Some 0000 steel wool to clean the outside of the neck. A small tuft wrapped around the neck and twisted does a quick job. May also be used with discretion to clean the outside of the cases.

A clean bore brush one size larger than the caliber you are loading for on a small pistol rod to clean the inside of the necks. Push it straight in and slightly twist pulling it out. Usually one pass cleans the carbon and debris out pretty well.

A small screw driver to clean the primer pocket but the Lee primer pocket cleaner is inexpensive and works well.

The Lee chamfer tool to chamfering the inside of the case mouth and the outside if necessary. A small knife blade will do also for the inside.

The Lee hand priming tool is almost a must unless you want the be-jesus scared out of you when a primer pops tapping them in.

A Lee powder funnel, works much better than pouring through the sizer.

A tapered punch or needle nosed pliers can be used to flair the case mouth if you are loading cast bullets. Or you can order a small caliber specific tool from Lee to flair the case mouths.

A loading block to hold the cases that you’ve put powder into.

Nice, or next to have;

Lee’s powder dippers.
A good powder scale.
A powder trickler.
At least one good reloading manual, Lyman’s is recommended.
A dial caliper.

All the above will fit into the MTM box.

Most of the above will also be required or useful when you advance to a single or progressive press.

Larry Gibson

[w5pv]

I have time to do this but have been doing it since 1964 and still have all of my digits and eyes.Get you a routine and stick to it.I have loading blocks that I use and the same procedure.I will take and turn all the brass with the primer side up and prime the brass and keep them turned primer side up and start to charge with powder.I put my expanding/powder through die in and weigh the charge ,dump the powder and then take the brass and put it in the loading block.This is done until I have all the brass charged and then I take a flash light and check to make sure there is no double charges and all cases are charged.It takes a little longer to load this way but cuts way down on mistakes.I set my powder throw a couple of tenths of a grain low and the use the dribble to zero the charge.Good luck on your reloading.

[RogerDat]

Hit the gun show in Mason. Was able to pick up 1000 sm pistol primers, 500 cast and lubed 125 grn flat nose all at prices comparable to ordering online. Plus have a vendor bringing a pound of unique tomorrow for me to pick up. Coming in at about $100 for the lot. Color me a happy camper. Did dodge some really over priced stuff, primers for $42 at one table that were $32 at another.

Larry thank you for that comprehensive list to help guide me going forward. The people that engage in this hobby, craft or whatever you call it are a very welcoming and supportive group.
A vendor that I purchased case sizing lube, a pocket cleaner, and ingot mold from looked up what my kit .5 dipper would yield in grains of unique then consulted a couple of manuals to confirm that it was a safe load (falls right in the middle). So I could be sure that I would be OK purchasing the unique and using it with those bullets. Despite the fact that he did not sell powder. He also showed me how to use the case sizing lube.

I figured I might as well pick up the mold (a lee) so I could be ready to start converting my bars and scrap into something usable. Any reason I can't just melt this down in a stainless sauce pan? Did see a Lee scale for about $24 but think I had better wait just a bit on that purchase. Was interesting to see the items as opposed to pictures online.

I like the suggestion of doing the work one step at a time and double checking. Maybe I will pick up a block when I pick up the powder tomorrow.

I can't say if it is true or not but one vendor said powder prices had dropped a lot in Ohio over the last few weeks and were much less than here in Michigan. Since the guy was selling bags of clean brass and from Ohio.... might be worth considering doing some shopping or shows in Ohio for those living in south Michigan.

[RogerDat]

One thing you absolutely will need and may as well look for is a bullet puller. You WILL make mistakes. I am 60, have been reloading since I was 16, and just pulled 150 .40 S&W that I inadvertently loaded with RE13! When we are confident we make mistakes wholesale!

Anything RCBS that is mechanical they will replace if it is broken or non-functional. It's just like the Craftsman guarantee - I don't know how many broken Craftsman screwdrivers I've picked up and turned in for a new one.

Is this (or something like it) what you are suggesting to pull bullets? http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00038502031
One thing I'm not clear on is do you have to purchase collets to go with these in the calibre being reloaded?
I too have used that Craftsman guarantee a few times myself.

[tward]

The kinetic puller I have has a universal type collet, really just an aluminum circle cut into thirds and held together with an O ring. Keep asking questions and be safe. Larry Gibson was right about scaring you if a primer goes off. Remember safety gear, safety glasses for reloading. Gauntlets, aprons and such for casting. Welcome aboard!! Tim

[RogerDat]

....Larry Gibson was right about scaring you if a primer goes off. Remember safety gear, safety glasses for reloading. Gauntlets, aprons and such for casting. Welcome aboard!! Tim

In another thread I believe the term "muskrat slide in the shorts" was mentioned when a primer went off unexpectedly. :-) Have a pair of welding gloves but glad you mentioned apron, will have to pick one up, gave mine away years ago since I seldom did any welding and then only minor repairs. Always did hate getting burned by hot sparks or shavings, molten lead I imagine would be worse.

Hoping that I can sell my vintage "Tiger" box of Weatherby .270 ammo to a vendor at the gun show. If I can get some money for it that would be better than sitting on my shelf looking "vintage" and might help offset expenses of my new hobby. Upset the better half less that way.

I also have a box of Remington .270 Keenbore jacketed soft tip but it's missing the end flap with the lot number so no way to tell if it's part of the batch that was recalled. Kind of funny looking at a box of ammo and seeing a price of $5.95 on it, almost seems like it's missing a digit.

If anyone from the forum is going to the show in Mason and wants the 20 rounds of Remington for reloading let me know. I'm guessing I can leave it at the front desk where they make you check in ammo and put your name on it. Otherwise I'll see if the vendor who sold me the bullets and is going out of his way to get me the powder wants it since he sells brass.

[Zymurgy50]

If you ever get to the Kalamazoo area check out On Target on West Main. I was in there a couple weeks ago and they had lots of powder in stock.
Also had a buddy pick up a pound of Unique at the Walmart on Shaver road.
If you are looking for a set of carbide dies for the 45LC PM me, I have a set I got in trade.

[Wizwheel]

On Target in Kzoo, Jays' in Clare, and Johnsons' in Adrain are great reloading sources.
Michigan Shooter

[Dave Bulla]

Ya know, I use lee loaders a lot and I'm still torn on the batch method vs the one round all the way method. One thing I like about the "all the way" method is that there really is no danger of missing the powder charge or having a double charge. You are only dealing with that single case and you pretty much KNOW if you just charged it of not and can always look if you got distracted for a bit. As a matter of fact, that's the real danger when reloading... distractions. Most manuals will tell you that you should develop a routine, avoid drinking, smoking or distractions but I think most people read that and it just doesn't register as an important bit of advice. But back to the one round all the way method. I like it because I think I'm less likely to make a mistake and since all the tools are right there handy and there is no changing of dies or putting parts on or parts off of a press it just flows for me. I think it's one of those things that you have to practice a bit and give it a chance for it to feel natural especially if you are used to batch loading with a press.

If you don't like it, you can always go back to the batch method.

[RogerDat]

Was able to sell the boxes of .270 for $25 at the show so I took the advice of Wayne and picked up a bullet puller. And the advice of tward to get a leather apron for safety when casting, picked one up from Harbor Freight for $10. Not sure when I'll try casting but getting the gear (especially safety gear) together up front seems a good place to start.
Appreciate the recommendations for local sources being offered. Hope to take all the good information on tools and resources and condense it into reference notes I can use in the future.

Currently using the batch method but that is partly in order to get a better "feel" for each step by repeating the same step many times in a row. Did find out how hard is too hard to strike when it comes to seating a primer. But only set off 1 out of 50 and it was not too bad having a primer go off, worse for the dog, she was trying to nap while I was whacking away, totally not amused to suddenly have a loud "pop" go off. Was smart enough to do this step while wife was not at home, pretty sure she would have been even less amused.

I'm part way through making my first box of 38 special 125 grain flat nose with .5 cc of Unique (4.6 grains). Ending up with a consistent 37 mm overall cartridge length. I am noticing that many if not most end up shaving a tiny thin ring of lead and lube when the bullet is pressed in. Easy to remove by just running my thumbnail along the top of the brass. Not sure if that ring is a bad thing indicating I should have chamfered the case in addition to using the Lee flaring tool. Or if it is a good thing indicating that I'm getting a tight seal, as it would be if loading a cap and ball revolver.

I'm also not 100% sure on seating depth.
This image is pretty much identical to what I am loading http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046113272/hunters-supply-hard-cast-bullets-38-caliber-357-diameter-125-grain-lead-flat-nose
I am seating to just past the top of the upper groove, just barely on the flat that forms the shoulder. Seemed to me I would not want the groove exposed. Opinions or insight would be welcome. Hope I don't have to employ that bullet puller I just bought!

I am not planning to crimp the cases. My understanding was crimping is optional and without the home made bushing some people use it would be difficult to get consistency tapping with a mallet.

[Dave Bulla]

Well, a couple things to point out.

First off, you don't want to shave lead off of a cast bullet. It's already very difficult to get a perfectly cast bullet, imbalancing it further by shaving off random amounts of lead won't help accuracy at all. You may have to champher the inside more and flare it more. If you are using the flare tool that comes with the kit, there is a lip that stops the flare at the correct amount.

Question, when you load the bullet, does it drop through the die onto the case mouth or do you have to push it in with the seating tool? It is common that a cast bullet is oversize compared to a jacketed one and they often will not fit through the hole in the die. If you are having to drive it through, you might be shaving the lead there but not seeing it until you take the completed round out after seating the bullet. To get around that, lift the die off the charged case and sit the bullet on the case mouth by hand and lower the die back down over it all then seat normally.

Second, I would strongly suggest that you go ahead and crimp your cases even if you don't get them perfect. I'm one of the guys who posted in various places about using a home made bushing to get perfect crimps but I'll tell you what, while it works great, you can do an adequate job without it. It just takes a little care in "feeling" the stack is straight and tapping with the mallet face flat to the tool. If you do not crimp, you run the chance that bullets can move either into the case like in a tube magazine rifle or out of it which happens in revolvers due to recoil. The moving deeper issue is the dangerous one as it raises pressure dramatically. Moving out of the case will just lock up your revolver so the cylinder won't turn and you have to disassemble it to fix it.

On the seating depth, most cast bullets have the crimp groove correctly located to give the proper overall length. Double check it by measuring a couple rounds. I like to have the depth where the case mouth after crimping is touching the forward edge of the crimp groove. Basically, it follows the contour of the crimp groove.

[Wayne Smith]

You will want to set a crimp on any revolver round. You take the chance of having a boolit pull part way out upon the recoil of another shot and lock up your gun. Not fun when it happens. Not a problem, I take a piece of 3/8" brass rod to the range with me anyway.

With a light touch with the bullet puller you can adjust the seat depth of a seated boolit. I'm very seldom able to do it, but have once or twice.

You want the boolit seated out so it just is inside the cylinder of the gun. You can use your gun as a measure. Seat too short (deep) and you are reducing the powder expansion capacity and increasing pressure. May not be a problem with your middle of the road load, but when you get a scale (NOT LEE) you will want to experiment with other loads. If you have data for that boolit you will also have an OAL measure. Get a caliper and check your loads if you have such a measure. This is the seating depth the data is using.

[RogerDat]

Well, a couple things to point out.

... You may have to champher the inside more and flare it more. If you are using the flare tool that comes with the kit, there is a lip that stops the flare at the correct amount.

Question, .... If you are having to drive it through, you might be shaving the lead there but not seeing it until you take the completed round out after seating the bullet. To get around that, lift the die off the charged case and sit the bullet on the case mouth by hand and lower the die back down over it all then seat normally.

Second, I would strongly suggest that you go ahead and crimp your cases even if you don't get them perfect. I'm one of the guys who posted in various places about using a home made bushing to get perfect crimps but I'll tell you what, while it works great, you can do an adequate job without it. It just takes a little care in "feeling" the stack is straight and tapping with the mallet face flat to the tool.....

On the seating depth, most cast bullets have the crimp groove correctly located to give the proper overall length. Double check it by measuring a couple rounds. I like to have the depth where the case mouth after crimping is touching the forward edge of the crimp groove. Basically, it follows the contour of the crimp groove.

I'm hitting the stop lip on the flaring tool so it seems like I should plan on a touch with a champher tool.

All the lead shaving is taking place on the case edge. I'm starting the bullet on the case by hand and setting the guide on it after to seat the bullet. Dropping through and giving just a touch of hand pressure to the rod I then lifted the guide off and saw the case to bullet alignment was not starting out very well aligned and the kit instructions said it might be easier/better to start by hand rather than dropping through so I went that route.

Sounds like there is a consensus on crimping so I'll give that a shot. I am right on the top edge of the crimp groove, just hiding the groove so I guess I'll have to give crimping a try to see if the case goes into the groove or bites the top edge. I'm guessing that cutting the top edge of the groove with the crimp would be undesirable as it would probably shave off on firing.

My OAL is 1.45 and Alliant site and Lee kit card list 1.44 OAL for a 125 gr. bullet. If I seat that .01 amount deeper on the bullet (assuming I can adjust to that close of tolerance) I would be crimping against the flat above the groove. I might have to use the puller to back out a tiny amount and reseat the bullet to be right in the groove which would increase my OAL.

The Lee card does not list Unique for 125 lead and Alliant site does not list plain lead, just GD hollow point. But I figure the same mass (125 gr) will yield generally the same pressure to overcome the inertia. So I should have slightly less pressure right?

The projectile is a well short of the front of the cylinder. A 158 gr. round nose gets closer to full cylinder length but I'm loading a shorter bullet. Sounds like that won't yield the max accuracy possible.

From my reading it sounds like to get the most accuracy I would want the bullet to start closer to the forcing cone, while reducing charge to accommodate increased case pressure from the extra resistance of having the rear of the bullet still in the case when it meets the resistance of the forcing cone. For me, at this point, working that out correctly would be crawling way past my speed. Sounds like I would need a precise scale, loading manual, understand the manual, and probably a powder trickler before I could even attempt it.

I had heard that the Lee scale left something to be desired, any opinions on the RCBS and Lyman beam budget scales? They run around $50 or so. I'm sort of working out a "need" and "want" list so I can do some watching of prices and reading reviews.

[Wayne Smith]

1) Since you are using data and a short boolit .01" won't matter and where the crimp is really isn't an issue as long as it holds the boolit in the case.
2) I was surprised to recently read a member who actually tested accuracy with a revolver and boolits at various distances from the forcing cone and found absolutely no difference! So no, if you are using a short boolit (I missed that in your original post) you don't need to worry.
3) yes, you are getting way too anal to be worrying about internal ballistics at this point in the game. (External ballistics - from the muzzle to the target. Internal ballistics - from the primer ignition to the muzzle)
4) The only problem with the Lee scale is inadequate capacity. If you will only ever weigh powder and nothing else it is probably adequate. We are boolit casters. I had a RCBS 505 for years and then started casting for 45-70, 40-70, and 500 S&W. All of my scales now have a 1000 grain capacity!
5) Having both the only major difference between RCBS and Lyman is the way the scale is organized. RCBS has 10 divisions on the 1/10 grain bar, Lyman has 5 divisions. Makes no difference unless you, like me, have both, then it keeps you on your toes! Both are made by Ohaus.
6) Generally lead causes less resistance sliding down the barrel (internal ballistics) than does gliding metal. Thus we can use full data without worrying about over pressuring the case. We do need to be concerned about alloy strength, however.
7) Your first investment should be a loading manual. Lyman or Sierra are excellent introductions to the process of loading and a whole world of data.
8) You haven't posted your location. It may be that one of us live close enough to you to lend books and instruct your process.

[RogerDat]

1). Good to know, am going to look for a lighter mallet before doing the crimp. I can control a 24 oz well enough for the other steps but for crimping I think less weight will give me more control.
2). Nothing like collecting actual data to answer a question, maybe it matters more in rifles..... that level of the craft is really way past my current top speed. Still I found reading about the issues raise in the answers here interesting.
3). That whole "External ballistics" is a large part of my justification for attempting to reload. Make it so I can afford to work on that barrel to target more.
With a healthy dose of I find the whole process interesting, so much more to it once you move past just buying a box of ammo.
4 & 5) Got it. Budget Lyman or RCBS scale means giving up capacity to weigh heavy projectiles.
7) Manual is on the top of my list, have been reading the online book linked to in the sticky, I figure if I have to read it twice and think I'm probably learning something. Trying to get by on just the loader kit and advice will only get one so far. RTFM (read the friendly manual) is often the best place to start, probably what I should have done. Will rectify that as soon as I can.
8) Added location to profile. There are people in the area on the forum, I may reach out to them via PM but probably not until after the holidays. People tend to be really busy during this time of year.

For me equipment is something of a balancing act, I can't afford to buy cheap junk that won't work, last, or need to be replaced due to shortcomings, against not sinking more than I can justify into advanced or top of the line equipment when starting a new hobby. The knowledge shared by the members here is really helpful in finding that balance.

I am trying to work out a spread sheet of where certain activities are going to require certain equipment. E.G to cast bullets I will need to test hardness which requires some equipment and knowledge beyond just the bullet mold and a way to melt lead. At some point I will have to decide to commit resources (time/money) to continue advancing in this craft, or decide it's not something for me to pursue beyond a certain point. In which case I will add myself to the market for the folks that cast and sell to help pay for their equipment. But I really want to at least have tried casting once, even if I have to purchase the alloy to avoid purchase of equipment to test hardness.

I did the same thing with photography, bought basic camera that allowed me to learn how to use manual settings, bought something a little better, then purchased a digital SLR. I am not able to justify purchase of pro level camera, lenses, or lighting, however a good consumer level SLR camera, some decent used lenses, and budget lighting equipment allows me to take the pictures I want to take. Since some of those pictures are of my wifes dance group and their performances the expense has benefit to both sides of our partnership. Reloading and casting is strictly "my thing". Wife would be content to plink away with a box of .22 rim fire a couple of times a year and buy a box of 38's. Takes pride in her gun knowledge and ability but would rather go out to dinner than purchase a set of reloading dies.

[Dave Bulla]

Hey RogerDat,

If you are interested, I've got a Dillon balance beam powder scale that I picked up at a yard sale last spring dirt cheap. I think maybe it's never been used other than when I tested it out when I got it home. It's nothing fancy and I'm not sure of the model without going to look at it. In the interest of helping out a new guy, I think I can make it worth your while. Drop me a message and we'll see what we can work out.

[Mk42gunner]

I will second you need to get a good manual. All of the current ones I am aware of spell out the steps for reloading in excruciating detail; aimed towards using their products of course.

If you are shaving lead while seating the bullet, you need to flare the case mouth more.

Be careful and ask questions if you don't understand something,

Robert

[RogerDat]

.....Be careful and ask questions if you don't understand something,

RObert

In that vein of being careful and asking questions, when I crimped the shells tonight I realized that what had been a faint line in a ring around some brass had become enough of a groove to catch with a fingernail. Located approx. 5mm down from the case mouth. Only thing I can compare it to is a line made when cutting copper tube, if the cutter was just barely tight enough to score the tube as it went around. During resize that line that I could faintly see had become stretched into a groove I could feel with my finger nail. Seemed like that would make the case weak, right around where the bullet base would be.

Is this normal or should I probably scrap that brass?

Does seem odd, resize is compressing the case yet this is more like a scratch was stretched. What might cause this, and what should I do to avoid it? Especially if those cases become scrap.

On a positive note the crimps came out nice.

[Wayne Smith]

I have been casting boolits for rifle and pistol for over ten years and have never invested in anything to test hardness. WDWW are hard enough for the rifles and ADWW or 20-1 is hard enough for pistols. That's all I need to know to use them.

Up to about .35 or .366 your boolits are unlikely to go over 500gr. The RCBS 505 and equivalent are adequate scales unless you are planning on getting a 45-70 or like caliber rifle.

We really need pics of the line you are inquiring about. You are right - in the Lee loader you are compressing, not stretching the case. Many .38 Special cases have that line around them, it is a seating line for wadcutter ammo. Is this what you are seeing?

[RogerDat]

I have been casting boolits for rifle and pistol for over ten years and have never invested in anything to test hardness. WDWW are hard enough for the rifles and ADWW or 20-1 is hard enough for pistols. That's all I need to know to use them.

Up to about .35 or .366 your boolits are unlikely to go over 500gr. The RCBS 505 and equivalent are adequate scales unless you are planning on getting a 45-70 or like caliber rifle.

We really need pics of the line you are inquiring about. You are right - in the Lee loader you are compressing, not stretching the case. Many .38 Special cases have that line around them, it is a seating line for wadcutter ammo. Is this what you are seeing?

I have a bunch of existing lead ingot and scrap of unknown hardness. Will probably try pencil test to at least get a rough idea, might all be plain lead. Need some idea of what alloy will be required to get to WW type mix that you suggest would handle my needs very well. Largest bullet weight I might hit would be in the 300's for 45 LC.

Could well be a seating line for wad cutters, or some other bullet. This brass came out of all my loose brass so it is pretty mixed. Would not know what original bullet was. All cases display line at same point. 5 mm or 13/64 inch down from mouth. Most common bullet I would have purchased would be 158 gr round nosed lead or plated. But there were some wadcutters too. On some other 38 spc I did see a line further down.

[Wayne Smith]

Yup. That's what that line is. It was there originally, don't worry. It is a seating line for factory wadcutters, two different length's/seating depth.

From what you say the RCBS 505 is all the scale you need. I see them all the time on eBay, folks who are using electronic scales and getting rid of their balance beams. I trust the balance beams more, have three of them.

The pencil hardness test is adequate for our needs - it is cheap and close enough.

[RogerDat]

I am hoping that some 3/4 inch lead plates I have might be an alloy, possibly with tin. Hopefully not zinc. Originally they were in a metal box with a bar through them, I think they were a counter weight to something like a RR or parking lot crossing arm. Slightly lighter color and different more ringing "tone" when dropped as compared to my lead ingots. Seem a little bit harder than lead ingots too but not by a huge amount.

Will post a picture or link to a picture of those cases this evening, I think the mystery of what is solved, just want to be sure that the imperfection is not too great to be safe. One split case could ruin my day (or wifes, kids or grandkids day). Even if no injury resulted the loss of confidence would be huge problem going forward.

[Wayne Smith]

Not a problem with shooting safety. Anything you can melt in a pot is softer than gliding metal or copper, both of which are or have been routinely used in condom bullets. The issue with zinc is that too much of it (almost any) turns your melt to mush and makes it uncastable. Nothing you can easily melt and stuff into a cartridge when formed will 'blow up a gun'!

Oh, well, the above was a response to misreading your post! Agreed, pics of the cases would be a good idea just to confirm. However, having shot split cases - or rather have cases split on me when shooting, there has not been a lot of drama as a result. This is when the split is a result of overly hard cases, not because of an overload.

[RogerDat]

Hmm so if it melts and pours from ladel into ingot mold smooth it's probably not zinc, seems like a simple test. My current thinking is I'll melt some of my scrap, pour into Lee ingot mold to get a feel for things but probably purchase a bar of known good bullet alloy from Rotometals for my first attempt at casting bullets. Improve my chances of good results and still save some money. If that works move on to getting alloy to adjust my scrap ingots to be good bullet material.

I keep saying to the wife (and myself too) just because a bullet is dangerous does not mean making them is any more dangerous than a lot of other things I do that seem "normal". Being on a ladder 15 ft in the air setting 16ft 2x12's solo was not a totally safe undertaking but it's how you build a pergola over an elevated deck. Come to think about it she worried about me then too. Just not as much. Seen me building stuff for about 20 yrs. I know how to work on a ladder or use power tools safely and she and I both know it. However pounding on bullets or melting lead is a new activity with it's own hazards to learn and be aware of. And DW knows I'm a rookie ;-)

[CastingFool]

For you Lansing, MI area boolit brothers, one good place to shop for reloading supplies is Schantz Tire in Otsego. I stopped there late last summer and picked up some primers and powder. I thought their prices were reasonable, and looked like their shelves were well stocked. I wish they were closer. It's a 90 mile round trip for me.

[RogerDat]

Hopefully this will allow experienced members to offer an opinion on the question of is this brass sound or scrap. Let me provide a disclaimer for you. Liability is limited to what I paid for the opinion. You are not responsible for my taking or ignoring your opinion, for all you know I'm not competent to play with metal silverware or matches, let alone reload ammunition. That about cover putting a lawyer out of business?
88721

[Wayne Smith]

Nice crimp! That line doesn't look like any of my .38 brass. I assume it wasn't there before you sized and loaded them?

[RogerDat]

Nice crimp! That line doesn't look like any of my .38 brass. I assume it wasn't there before you sized and loaded them?
It was a very faint razor thin line you could see but not really "feel" before reloading. Some cases post reloading the line is still only a visible scratch after reloading, others turned out like this one, as a groove.

I was reviewing the steps done with the lee loader and pounding case in to size would not pull or stretch that line but what about driving it out? Case gets driven out of loader when case is being pounded down onto the primer, using a rod that only pushes on the base of the case. I would think the top of the case would be the part being held tightly, evidenced by the scuffing all around the top of the case on either side of the line.

Case held at top, force applied to bottom = stretch? Question is did it damage the case.

[Wayne Smith]

Are you using any case lube when you size? If not that explains it. Yes, it will stick and stretch on the way out. If you are using case lube that shouldn't happen. RCBS case lube is STP repackaged. get a stamp pad and a bottle of STP if you don't have any case lube. If you have lanolin in almost any form, snow seal, bag balm, or oilskin treatment it will work just as well and soften your hands at the same time! STP wipes off easily with a rag, just a little lanolin I just leave on.

Since you are shooting a solid revolver I'd shoot it. After shooting it I'd pull the case just to see if it split and if so where the piece of brass went! That being said, I'm curious and an experimenter. I was 16 when I got my Lee Loader, I realized the potential for popping a primer so I went ahead and deliberately popped a couple so it wouldn't surprise me when it happened accidentally. If you are not, pull it.

[RogerDat]

Using Lee case lube. Might not have used enough. Will try some more brass, using more lube, after Turkey day. Check each case as I go to confirm I'm putting enough lube on to prevent "stretch marks". I was putting a dab of lube on my finger and thumb then rolling the next 5 cases between them. If I still see stretch marks I'll try the snow seal and get more generous, or the STP

I recall STP we used it as assembly lube, was used in a sucker bet you could make with a rookie. Bet you can't pick up this screw driver by the shaft with just you finger and thumb. If the shaft was wiped with STP there was no way.

I might consider feeding it through my 357 since it has a longer and stronger cylinder as well as heavier frame but then again why take the risk of sending pieces of brass down the barrel or getting it jammed in the cylinder. I probably would not reload this suspect brass again so might as well pull it now. If someone else wanted to experiment I could send them the brass. I'm getting too old to learn to wipe left handed.

[Wayne Smith]

Well, yah, I did tell you that you would need a bullet puller!

[RogerDat]

Well, yah, I did tell you that you would need a bullet puller!
And I being smart enough to recognize good sound advice when it's directed right at me.... bought one :)

[Dave Bulla]

That groove doesn't look like anything I've ever seen on a case. Usually the crimp in the case is just a crease. That looks like a flat bottom channel. I also didn't notice the friction marks until you pointed them out.

Just curious, is your Lee kit new or old? I'm wondering if you might not have a little bit of internal rust. Might be worth while to swab it out with some solvent and maybe even put some steel wool on a rod chucked in a drill and polish the inside of the die a tad.

If you have actual rust, I recommend you buy a bottle of Evapo-Rust from your local auto parts store and soak it in that for a couple hours. It cleans up with water and simply melts rust away. It's not harsh, you can put your hands in it without any PPE and it just flat works.

[uscra112]

I lived in Fowlerville myself, 2000 to 2009. My best reloading sources were the gunshows at Mason, Birch Run, and Grand Rapids. The Powder Keg had nothing for reloaders. He also charged me $50 for a transfer, and lost half the stuff that came with the rifle to boot. (Although he found it again about a month later.) There's a chain sporting goods store in the strip mall on the north side of Grand River just a bit west of the Walmart in Howell that had some stuff. Can't remember the name. Did much of my shooting at the Shooters' Corral out west of Leslie, not to annoy my landlord too much - which is not to say that the occasional woodchuck didn't meet my .25-20. I always followed the old poacher's rule - one shot only. It's the second shot that gets you in trouble.

[RogerDat]

That groove doesn't look like anything I've ever seen on a case. Usually the crimp in the case is just a crease. That looks like a flat bottom channel. I also didn't notice the friction marks until you pointed them out.

Just curious, is your Lee kit new or old? I'm wondering if you might not have a little bit of internal rust. Might be worth while to swab it out with some solvent and maybe even put some steel wool on a rod chucked in a drill and polish the inside of the die a tad.
.....

Kit is new and not all rounds ended up with that defect. All of the ones with that ring have it at same distance from case mouth (5mm). Found some cases I did not do yet with the ring. It looks like a "heavy" version of the stop line for the original bullet. Almost appears to be rolled or crimped into the case. Sizing just makes it more pronounced.

The cases are stamped R P on the base, internet indicates this is Remington-Peters. Over on the highroad site I found a discussion were some people stated RP would sometimes put a cannelure type groove in the case as an added crimp for heavier lead bullets, such as the 158 gr. I tended to purchase.

This post here has a picture. In the picture the thin ring below the normal cannelure is like what I have on mine close to the case mouth. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208863-Old-Peters-38-Special-brass&p=2333730&viewfull=1#post2333730

The discussion on reloading with the cannelure was generally saying its OK to reload because the cylinder takes the pressure load. These folks just reload them until they burn through. http://www.missouriwhitetails.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2435307
Others just treat them as scrap.

[Wayne Smith]

Personally I don't treat them as scrap until they fail. I've yet to have one fail!

[Greg B.]

Have a look at the Los Angeles Silouette Club web site. Lots of very good free info on cast boolits. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is another excellent cast boolit loading manual.

[RogerDat]

Have a look at the Los Angeles Silouette Club web site. Lots of very good free info on cast boolits. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is another excellent cast boolit loading manual. Have been reading http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm from a link on that site.

Both the Lyman reloading and casting manuals are on my must purchase list but I was hoping to purchase from one of the local reloading sources suggested by members instead of Amazon. Support local business that support the shooting community. Just a bit of a drive to get to any of the ones mentioned have not been able to get the free time yet. Am considering the Lee reloading book but since it is only available in hard cover it's more expensive than the Lyman reloading book. Since I'm just learning figure I can learn a lot from any decent manual, the Lee reloading manual did get better reviews on Amazon but wonder how the experienced people here rate the two reloading books.

Planning to go purchase the Aroma 1000 watt hot plate today, one with cast iron burner. Have a stainless pot and ladle from Salvation Army store. Figure for turning "dirty" scrap into ingots the pot and hot plate would be better solution than contaminating a melter from Lee. Will have to see if hot plate is suitable for casting of boolits or not, may need a real melter for that part of the operation.

[Darto]

Roger I have copied about 50 to 70 thereabouts of Lee Loader charge cards, for different calibers (lee loader made their loader in 101 calibers according to an old Lee add I saw).
If you want a copy of a /zip file of these (.jpg files zipped up), I can email them as an attachment.

If there was a site to post the file online I would do that, in case anybody else want it.

By the way I got the pictures from enlarging eBay auction listings, they usually show the charge card.

[RogerDat]

Roger I have copied about 50 to 70 thereabouts of Lee Loader charge cards, for different calibers (lee loader made their loader in 101 calibers according to an old Lee add I saw).
If you want a copy of a /zip file of these (.jpg files zipped up), I can email them as an attachment.

If there was a site to post the file online I would do that, in case anybody else want it.

By the way I got the pictures from enlarging eBay auction listings, they usually show the charge card.

Clever idea getting the images from ebay. I'll PM you with my email address. I have a couple of sites where the images could be put online, can whip up an index web page for listing them all, send you the link to the page or list of links to the images and you can post it.

[Wayne Smith]

Roger, after all this I at least am curious how they shoot. That's the one thing you haven't told us.

[RogerDat]

Roger, after all this I at least am curious how they shoot. That's the one thing you haven't told us.

So far have been unable to get any annoying family member or in-law over to test fire them. ;-)
I can't shoot on my own property, houses on all sides but my neighbor lives at the back of 10 acres and has a berm, just been too busy to go visit him. Maybe this week end. Really looking forward to finding out how the good ones shoot.

On the ones with the grooves in the cases I'm figuring just not worth it, that groove is just too deep.
Sorted through the brass by head stamp and only have about 50 cases like those. I'll try sizing a few with lots of lube see what the results are. Bottom line is I can purchase 100 used cases for $15 and while not highly probable it is possible that I could do a lot more than $15 in damage with a single failed case. I'm worried that the brass will split all around the case on the groove and get fired along with the bullet. As deep as the groove is that wall is pretty thin.

[rintinglen]

I would not sweat that groove. It looks like a cannelure that was put in the case to prevent a bullet from seating deeper in the case. I have loaded and fired many thousands of rounds from similar brass--a police agency used to qualify with a 110 grain JHP at a range that I was a member of. I had a 5 gallon bucket of that stuff which had the same "groove" you are showing.

[John C]

I agree that those cases are probably fine. Even if the extremely remote chance one of those cases did let go, it's far enough up that the case would still seal the chamber and the boolit would likely fire just fine. I'd definitely shoot them.

[drtoddw]

The Internet archive has a copy of Modern Reloading (1st Edition copyright 1996, 2000 reprint) by Richard Lee. This book doesn't seem to be much different from my newer version. I would probably double-check the data for any particular load against updated information; what I've checked hasn't been any different. I can't vouch for copyright but I believe that the internet archive ascertains that copyright is not being violated. I did have difficulty getting a readable copy trying to download a .pdf copy but was able to get a very clear, readable copy by using the "View On-line" option to the left. As always, the reader assumes all liability for the use or misuse of the information found in the document...I'm just passing the link along for "educational purposes".

http://archive.org/details/Modern_Reloading_1st_Edition_by_Richard_Lee

Edit to add: I just tried the ".PDF download" instead of the ".pdf download with text" and the copy was very good.

[RogerDat]

The Internet archive has a copy of Modern Reloading (1st Edition copyright 1996, 2000 reprint) by Richard Lee. This book doesn't seem to be much different from my newer version. I would probably double-check the data for any particular load against updated information; what I've checked hasn't been any different. I can't vouch for copyright but I believe that the internet archive ascertains that copyright is not being violated. I did have difficulty getting a readable copy trying to download a .pdf copy but was able to get a very clear, readable copy by using the "View On-line" option to the left. As always, the reader assumes all liability for the use or misuse of the information found in the document...I'm just passing the link along for "educational purposes".

http://archive.org/details/Modern_Reloading_1st_Edition_by_Richard_Lee

Edit to add: I just tried the ".PDF download" instead of the ".pdf download with text" and the copy was very good.

What a great resource. Thanks a bunch for posting it. I have already read a chapter or two, and printed off the starting load tables for the calibers I might reload so I can try and find a single powder that will cover my needs without purchasing a bunch of different powders. With an eye toward those powders that will support using a Lee scoop. Might be impossible to get a single powder that will cover 38 special to 45 LC to 303 British but even getting it down to two powders would be good. With powder supplies a little iffy knowing what I'm going to need so I can purchase if I find it is a good thing.

I also noted the insistence on only two brands of primers being appropriate for use with Lee auto primer systems. That is important safety information.

[uscra112]

Not totally optimal for all three of your named cartridges, and you won't find it in the Lee manual, but Red Dot comes pretty close, when using boolits. Look up "The Load", connected with C.E. "Ed" Harris.

[Wayne Smith]

Don't be too reliant on the Lee manual. You will find that they tested no loads, simply copied powder company data, and often not a lot of that. You will find a better selection of data in the Lyman or the Sierra manuals.

[RogerDat]

Thanks for the information uscra112 and Wayne. I had my doubts about single powder crossing from pistol to 303 British. I just downloaded the Lee dipper chart of grains for several brands of powder. Thinking that by looking up load data I can find something that will have a dipper that if not at starting load is not too much over. Good to have more than one manual or reputable source to confirm I'm in the safe range. That is what I did (with some help) for 38 special, the Lee loader scoop did not yield an exact starting load with unique but was close to the middle between starting and max load for 125 gr cast bullet.

Will look into Red Dot and see how that would work. Sort of complicated to work out because what mold(s) I get to cast boolits with will impact what powders I can use and hit a good load using a Lee dipper. I know a powder measure would be useful but would like to work out how to do this on a budget, would rather get a scale than measure if I was spending money.

Noticed in the Lee manual all the 303 British load data was for jacketed, not sure what difference jacket vs lead makes but will certainly need to figure that out from some other source.

Still waiting to get out and try that first batch, been too darn cold.

[uscra112]

Hast thou no scale ? ? :eek: Hie the hence and get one. (A beam, not a digital!)

Dippers are for shotgun shell reloading.

[RogerDat]

Hast thou no scale ? ? :eek: Hie the hence and get one. (A beam, not a digital!)

Dippers are for shotgun shell reloading.

Have read with interest the numerous threads on dippers, seems like it runs a close third to politics or religion for folks having strong positions. I know not having a scale (yet) is a handicap to developing any sort of custom load, it also removes a useful double check on the dipper. However I'm just getting started and trying to do so with the minimum expense so going with dippers for now. Would rather gain some experience and purchase decent quality for the long haul as finances and experience dictates. Most expensive item I have purchased so far (outside of materials) is the Lee Loader. Followed by a $20 hot plate. I did send a PM to a member that had a used scale for sale but have not heard back yet.

Right now the next item on my to-purchase list is a face shield so I can attempt making some ingots. Hoping to make it to HD tonight to purchase one.

At this point if those 38's I loaded with a dipper are suitable for plinking holes in paper plates I'll be happy, make some ingots, then purchase a mold and cast some boolits. If all goes well then I can sit down and consider what do I really need to improve my results and of those items which will provide the most bang for the buck (bad pun alert).

Reminds me I was going to post my expenses, figure someone else who like me wanted to stick a toe in the water might appreciate what it cost to get started, seems that once one gets going down this road one can spend money like a sailor on shore leave without half trying. And there are things such as a face shield or welding apron that might not be factored in by a noob such as myself. My goal such as it is was to make enough ammo at a low enough cost that I could honestly tell my wife I was saving money..... as opposed to starting an expensive new hobby.

[Wayne Smith]

Well, I've been casting over 10 years and have never used a face shield or an apron. I cast standing and wear glasses. If you don't wear glasses get some safety glasses - you need them for shooting anyway. Blue jeans and a cotton shirt stop lead - I have many examples to prove it. The only time I would want an apron would be if I cast sitting down and had the potential for the whole thing to land in my lap. Then it would be a leather apron!

[RogerDat]

I do get what your saying about clothes (non synthetic) and glasses being sufficient. Especially if one is trying to keep the cost down. Funny how important we fellows feel it is to avoid ending up with a lap full of molten lead. Little splashed on the face, not an issue if our eyes are protected but the lap.... whole different story!

Both items were suggested here on the forum and since it won't bother me to wear them (I used to wear them for work) and I wanted new clean glasses for casting anyway went with the shield. I'll probably use this stuff for more than casting at least once in awhile so the cost is not all tied to casting activity. I'll be working in a pretty cold garage so it may be the shield will have fogging issues, hopefully not.

[Dave Bulla]

Check your pm's Roger.

[RogerDat]

Check your pm's Roger.
Done and thanks!

[RogerDat]

I did a stupid. While out running errands decided to stop at the tire shop to see about getting some wheel weights. I did not know the current price of scrap WW, the tire manager did not know what they were getting from the scrap dealer and did not want to make a mistake. Bottom line I paid way too much for a small (1 gallon) bucket containing 15 lbs. Paid less than RotoMetals for finished ingots but.... Guess I just paid a "fools tax". Know your prices before going shopping to avoid this tax!

Looking forward to going through the process of sorting, melting and cleaning these WW into ingots.

[RogerDat]

I'm seeing a sort of black sludge forming on the top of my melt. How do I know if this is the "good stuff" I should try harder to mix back in or just oxide from the scrap lead that should be skimmed off?

Fluxing with bees wax.

[RogerDat]

Pot with black gunk around the edges of the pot. Also showing the type of lead scrap being melted.
And first ingots cast.
90628

90629

[RogerDat]

I'm seeing some metal what I would call it slush rising to the top. I mix that back in then add bees wax.
This is what I get after the bees wax is put on the melt. That I have been removing with a slotted spoon. Am hoping I'm not scooping out something I should leave in.

90644

[RogerDat]

This stuff is so much fun it's addictive! :smile:
Ended up with about 60 lbs. of ingots from 2 1/2 of my 4 plates of unknown lead.
Sort of odd a pencil hardness test of the source is harder than the ingots. Figure as soon as I can I'll order some alloy to mix with this and be ready to go end-to-end with a Lee loader to finished bullets.

90666

[Wayne Smith]

Yup, it is addicting! Your wax reduces oxidized metal back into the melt. This would be tin oxide or lead oxide. You want those. It does not clean other metals out of the mix, charcoal does this. Thus all the talk about sawdust, many of us are handymen or woodworkers as well and have a surplus of this stuff laying around anyway! Dump in a small handful of sawdust (pine or cedar smells good, but I use almost all hardwood) and let it become charcoal. Mix this through your lead and skim off the residue. Don't be too quick, wait until it's dust.

[RogerDat]

Nuts. Cleaned out the table saw just a little bit ago. Since everything is somewhat frosty I'm guessing my melt was a little hot. I tried mixing that black gunk back in with limited success, eventually I just skimmed it off. Wayne sounds like your saying that gunk might have been some tin. The source metal was oxidized a fair amount, even had some rust on it from the metal case it had been in. Wire brushed it fairly well but not to totally shiny.

Started considering the hardness difference between source and ingot. 1). On ingot I was scratching frost, maybe I should run a file across the surface and try again. 2). Might have pulled some alloy out with the flux and too hot melt. 3). Source metal surface was in effect forged by repeated pounding in use which might have made the surface I tested denser. It took one of the H pencils to scratch the source Putting it up around lino or #2 BHN but the ingot scratched with 3B so less than 20/1 tin BHN

[Dave Bulla]

Hi Roger,

You've got a package on the way. Should be there by Christmas.

Also, check out this other post I did on another forum about some simple modifications to improve accuracy. If you have access to or know anyone who is a machinist, they can easily make a bushing for you that will just fit the die and the case.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/87768-lee-loader-improvement.html

[RogerDat]

Hi Roger,

You've got a package on the way. Should be there by Christmas.

Also, check out this other post I did on another forum about some simple modifications to improve accuracy. If you have access to or know anyone who is a machinist, they can easily make a bushing for you that will just fit the die and the case.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/87768-lee-loader-improvement.html

Thank you very much. I'm heading into the holidays in a happy state of mind between you generosity and our local tire store being good guys. They sold me 150lbs of WW for $30 which is same price local scrap yard would have paid them per pound. $36 if you count the doz. donuts I threw in to "sweeten" the deal. Turns out one of the guys is partial to apple fritters, so apple fritters he shall get. The 15lbs (1gallon) I got from them before was mostly lead when checked with wire cutters. Shop sells used tires so may see a higher volume of older cars with older wheel weights come through.

Now if I can get a break in the weather so I can melt some of those WW down with the garage wide open and a couple of fans.

I did look at pictures of your bushing at one point and it is something I would like to pursue as an aid to generating consistent ammo.

[drtoddw]

Don't be too reliant on the Lee manual. You will find that they tested no loads, simply copied powder company data, and often not a lot of that. You will find a better selection of data in the Lyman or the Sierra manuals.

I agree, but would add that for ANY manual...especially when starting out before you "get a feel" for what is appropriate. I have seen questionable data in almost every manual. will say that my personal experience is that Lee data tends to be pretty conservative and leans well towards the "safe" side. I have both the 48th and 49th editions of the Lyman, and especially when first starting out, I would double check against data from Alliant's and IMR's website and any other data I'd picked up from magazines, etc. I thought it best to see what the general "safe ranges" were before I even began thinking about reloading a particular round.

[RogerDat]

I agree, but would add that for ANY manual...especially when starting out before you "get a feel" for what is appropriate. I have seen questionable data in almost every manual. will say that my personal experience is that Lee data tends to be pretty conservative and leans well towards the "safe" side. I have both the 48th and 49th editions of the Lyman, and especially when first starting out, I would double check against data from Alliant's and IMR's website and any other data I'd picked up from magazines, etc. I thought it best to see what the general "safe ranges" were before I even began thinking about reloading a particular round.

Thanks for the good advice which I will try to follow. Will take a bit to build up a library of references but I have found some powder sites have a lot of info online.
I guess it's just like the forum a lot of good information but not always the same good information since different people or companies have tried or used different approaches.

[mrblue]

Cabelas in Saginaw has had a nice supply of powder, primers and other items if needed. Also check out titan if you need dies. Also buy a reloading book, weather of knowledge, any book to start with with, abc of reloading to start and lees book too!

[RogerDat]

Cabelas in Saginaw has had a nice supply of powder, primers and other items if needed. Also check out titan if you need dies. Also buy a reloading book, weather of knowledge, any book to start with with, abc of reloading to start and lees book too!

Good to know another regional source for supplies. In the past we have gone to the Dundee store, never to the Saginaw one. Not much difference in driving distance now that I check it out.
Am on page 70 of the Lee manual and find it is worth reading so far just for the detailed explanation of what the dies are doing to the case or bullet during the process. But I do tend to be a target specific learner. I want to know how to do "x" so I read everything I can find about doing "x". I read the whole manual so I know where to look things up.

[Dave Bulla]

Roger,

Here are the pic's I mentioned in the pm.

Everyone else, these are pic's of a work base I make for use with my Lee Loaders. I use 1/2" steel plate and glue a piece of closed cell foam to the bottom and trim it to fit. This particular one shows two layers but that is not needed. It was a trial and error process and the first piece I used was some 1/4" red rubber used for gaskets. It did not do what I wanted it to do which was allow me to pound on my dies and not make a huge racket. I then added some 3/8" closed cell foam that feels about like a piece of wrestling mat only thinner. Now it works great. This one is about 7" by 6" but 5" by 6" is totally adequate.

I got the idea from watching a youtube video showing Dick Lee loading a round with his Lee Loader kit. I couldn't see what he used for a work base but it sounded like it might have been a slab of steel. Well, one thing led to another and this is what I ended up with. I like it a lot and it works quite well. I can sit and load at the kitchen table and not make a huge racket.

The black foam rubber I used was some scrap piece I got from an estate sale but I am sure that there is a very easy and common alternative. That would be one of the cheap neoprene "beer can cozy's" that you can buy for about a buck at most department stores. Just cut it open, roll it out flat, coat both the rubber and the steel with contact cement, let it tack and stick together. Trim the edges and you're good to go. Just keep the size of your steel plate small enough to not overhang the edges OR cut the can cozy into strips and glue it on like a border and it would work just as well. A scrap piece from a thin ethafoam camping pad would probably work well too.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/DaveBulla/IMG_1531_zpse975ca91.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/DaveBulla/media/IMG_1531_zpse975ca91.jpg.html)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/DaveBulla/IMG_1532_zps4dab863e.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/DaveBulla/media/IMG_1532_zps4dab863e.jpg.html)

[uscra112]

Mouse pads would work pretty well.

[RogerDat]

I think that base will work well with what I have planned. Am hitting the thrift and second hand stores looking for a tall four leg stool like a bar stool without a back. A padded plate on the stool would give me a nice solid surface and deaden the sound. Stool will slip under a work table or in a closet when not in use, and is good height for me to work at while sitting in a chair.
I'm even wondering if a press could be mounted on a stool, if some weight was hung off of he bottom leg rails to make it more stable.

I probably have a beat up old pad for under a sleeping bag we used for the kids when they were young hanging around someplace. Recall digging it out for the grandkids to sleep on the floor awhile back.

I'm probably going to work in the basement, setting off a primer in the kitchen would be bad PR for reloading if it happens when my wife is minding her own business reading on the couch and suddenly..... POP! I'm definitely going to be reloading in the basement, but avoiding a bunch of pounding noise will also help with making me a less annoying husband.

[uscra112]

If space is at a premium, there's an effective press that does not need a strong bench. In fact, it doesn't need ANY bench. Not cheap, but you can FL size .30-06 just holding it in your hands.

http://www.huntingtons.com/store/product.php?productid=19293&cat=744&page=1

I've had one for maybe ten years. Very tough, light years beyond the Lee "hand press". I take it to the range when I'm developing loads. If I had to cut down to just one press, this would be it.

[double00]

did you ever shoot any of those boolits.

[gunoil]

i would not cut corners. dont buy cheap stuff. Example: buy rcbs pro melt furnace. I would coat boolits instead of nasty lee lube. Buy NOE or accurate molds. You need a brass washer.

[RogerDat]

It has been my experience that when it comes to purchasing equipment buying "cheap stuff" is generally a poor choice. In this case I'm going at it from the opposite direction, how low can I go :-) Essentially it's hotplate and stainless steel pots from thrift store for melting. But am going to order a thermometer tonight since from everything I have read here temp is critical to keeping the good stuff in the alloy and a successful cast. It will be awhile before I can justify $300+ for melting.

I have been looking at NOE molds and appreciate the suggestion to look at accurate. I may want to go that route for 303 British since they offer a wider selection of dia. Will know better once I get an accurate measure of my Enfield bore. For 38/357 or 45 LC not sure the extra mold cost above Lee mold is worth it.

Still mulling over lube options. Some posts/articles suggest moly grease and bees wax mix, and make a good argument for using those two ingredients melted together.

[RogerDat]

Found a round folding stool at wal-mart for $12 not as heavy duty as I would really like, metal rather than wood. For now I'm going to keep hitting thrift stores looking for a stool to use as my reloading "bench". If nothing better turns up I might buy the $12 one.

[RogerDat]

If space is at a premium, there's an effective press that does not need a strong bench. In fact, it doesn't need ANY bench. Not cheap, but you can FL size .30-06 just holding it in your hands.

http://www.huntingtons.com/store/product.php?productid=19293&cat=744&page=1

I've had one for maybe ten years. Very tough, light years beyond the Lee "hand press". I take it to the range when I'm developing loads. If I had to cut down to just one press, this would be it.
Appears a lot of folks share your high opinion of this press, it's currently out of stock backorder only. :-)

[Wayne Smith]

Roger, for a lot of years I only shot a couple of calibers. Somehow I got an old sample case and cut foam to fit. In that case I had an RCBS Jr3, RCBS 505 scale, RCBS powder measure, powder funnel, and Lee cartridge trimmers as well as 4 sets of dies. It closed. To use it I would put a towel on the dining room table and clamp the press to the table. The measure mounted to the press under the die. When I was done I took it down and put it back in the case. The clamps were part of my wood working tools. I had two 50 cal. ammo cans in which I kept components. I mostly loaded 30-30 and 44Mag then, but kept dies for .308 and 30-06 as well. This was apartment living as well as our first house.

[RogerDat]

So I placed an order. Lyman thermometer and Lyman Cast Bullet handbook. Figure I have the 1st edition Lee Reloading as a pdf for reading about reloading in general and equipment, if I make or purchase cast bullets the Lyman manual will be the load data I will need, plus information on casting process.

I saw another thermometer that a few people claim was the same as the Lyman for less money but..... how would one know?

[Wayne Smith]

A mechanical thermometer is a piece of mature technology and pretty simple. I'm sure Lyman does not make their own but sources them. That the same thing is available from multiple suppliers at various price points in a mature technology item is not surprising. Knowing the difference? I tend to trust what I read here when the author gives his bona fides. And - have you found one made in America?

[RogerDat]

There are only 5 reviews of this alternative. More reviews are for casting use, not the advertised use in a grill. No way to know the bona fides of the review authors on Amazon. Alternative is made in USA, both are stainless steel. In the pictures it looks like the Lyman has a cast aluminum clip for hanging on the melt pot vs. the spring metal clip of the alternative.

http://www.amazon.com/Tel-Tru-LT225R-Replacement-Thermometer-degrees/dp/B0055777EU/ref=pd_sbs_sg_3

[RogerDat]

did you ever shoot any of those boolits.

Not yet, between ice storm, bitter cold, followed by snow up to my knees, followed by sub-zero temps ..... but I am champing at the bit, my neighbor with the range was out plowing his drive while I cleared mine and we talked, it's just a matter of tramping out to the back of his property with a target.

I really do need to get out there and test so I can continue reloading with this recipe provided it shoots well, or try something different if it does not.

[RogerDat]

Found a wood swivel bar type stool at Salvation Army for $13 the base that the swivel mounts on is flat and very solid, taking the chair off I have a nice little work space for going tap, tap, tap. Should be the perfect base for the padded plate Dave describes. Might even be able to clamp a press to it.

[429421Cowboy]

I like Dave's plate for loading, I have either a piece of 3/8" steel for a base that I never thought about putting foam under, but might have to do that now, and my favorite, a 1" thick marble slab that was a cutout for a sink from a countertop I got from the local marble shop for tooling leather, but use for all sorts of things now.

My one suggestion for you in a addition to the loader, would be a hand primer. Much, much better than seating them with a hammer, that method gives me the willies! I use my Lee loaders for a few cartridges, and press for the rest, but I still enjoy using the Lee ones, and they can be darn fast too once you get your motions down. Good luck to you!

[RogerDat]

Is it normal for a brand new still in the package lead thermometer to be pointed at 1000 degree highest temp rather than the 200 degree lowest temp? Went with the Lyman thermometer and when it arrived that is how it was. Should I be sending this one back?

Same order had my Lyman Cast Reloading book and I'm really liking what I have seen so far, just had time to glance through a few pages but can't wait to sit down and give it a read. Just the matching of powder to molds looks like it will be very helpful.

[RogerDat]

Is it normal for a brand new still in the package lead thermometer to be pointed at 1000 degree highest temp rather than the 200 degree lowest temp? Went with the Lyman thermometer and when it arrived that is how it was. Should I be sending this one back?


Some searching turned up my own answer, check calibration with boiling water (adjusted for elevation) and then with known plain lead record temp as it cools looking for a plateau should be at 621 degrees. This may be a case of coming back around to 1000 when at room temps that are much less than 200 degrees. Or it could just be cheap manufacture. We shall see.

I should note the Tel-tru thermometer in addition to being less expensive has a locking nut that allows turning the dial to adjust reading during check of calibration. Lyman you will be able to see if it is accurate and adjust mentally for a high or low reading but not designed to allow changing the dial.

Also on Amazon the Lyman shows a heavy cast aluminum looking clip but arrives with the same spring steel one that is in the picture of the Tel-tru.

[rking22]

I suspect it is wrap around due to being below 200 deg. Put it under hot tap water and see if it moves the right direction, easy sanity check. I load on a block of hardwood scrap , drilled a few flat bottmed holes to locate the shell base and keep other things from "escaping" . Drill a small hole all the way thru in the center of the shell base hole and spent primers can go thru to the bottom catch area. I use a Lee hand priming tool, but have set a lot of primers with 2 taps.
On your lead , the flat plates you have appear to be counterweight material. I have cast bullets for my 45-70 as well as muzzle loaders and plain base 30s for subsonic level loads from that material with no added anything with good success. I did not know if mine had enough/ any Tin in it. I was casting round balls from it and ,on a wildhair, cast some 140 plainbase 30 cals . Had a new mold and curisity ,...well you know. Any way ,the 140 came out well filled and shot well on 6 gr of reddot in my 3030. THe counterweight material I have apearently has adequate Tin to cast a good bullet ,they are SOFT. If plinking or rabbit loads it shoots well. I hope your material is the same . I also tried the counterweight material alloyed with 25% coww and water dropped for pistol bullets and it also worked well there. I point this out as I have a very limited supply of coww and want to stretch it as much as possiable. I have other alloys for hunting ,accuracy bullets but use them only when needed.
Hold your smelting temp down just in cast you get a zinc wheelweight in the pot, it will float and not contaminate a good melt. I sorted twice and still found 2 in the last batch. Probably should have just pitched the little ones I wondered about. but they float so the second level (melt temp) caught them.
Enjoy your new pastime ,so many aspects to explore!

[RogerDat]

Thanks rking22 You pegged it was not past 1000, but way below 200. I tested thermometer clipped to pot of boiling water.Got just over 200 degrees but short of 210.

I was thinking of trying a small batch at 25% cow to see what I got air cooled, water dropped, and maybe heat treated. It's good to know that ratio and wd will probably be suitable for at least 38 plinking loads.

I read several chapters of the Lyman cast bullet hand book tonight, your right, lots to explore.
I have a step-son living down in Tenn. been looking forward to getting down there for a little camping and a visit, you have some pretty country down your way.

[Ramar]

RogerDat " You pegged it was not past 1000, but way below 200. I tested thermometer clipped to pot of boiling water.Got just over 200 degrees but short of 210."

I believe all boiling points are stated at sea level. Your MI elevation may need to be figured into your degree readout.
Ramar

[RogerDat]

RogerDat " You pegged it was not past 1000, but way below 200. I tested thermometer clipped to pot of boiling water.Got just over 200 degrees but short of 210."

I believe all boiling points are stated at sea level. Your MI elevation may need to be figured into your degree readout.
Ramar

I know of a nearby elevation marker used by an early weather station to calibrate equipment, according to that elevation and current barometric pressure water should boil at 210.883 I'm reading a little short of that but unless deviation is cumulative it should not matter, will check it with some cooling lead to see what it reads when it should hit the 621 degree plateau. Really that part of the temp reading is the range where I have to know how much it is off.

[Dave Bulla]

Roger, also realize that while thermometers should be accurate across their entire range (in a perfect world) quite often they are calibrated to be most correct in the middle of their range especially if purpose built. For a lead thermometer, that would be in the 600 to 800 degree range I expect. Bottom line, it's a guide. You can likely tell a lot just by the appearance of the lead in the pot and how it pours, i.e. wrinkled boolits or frosty ones. But like the Lee dippers, it's great to have a scale to verify what you are actually getting. Eventually, after monitoring the temps through many casting sessions, you will be able to guess the temp pretty well just by the results you get from the mold. Wouldn't hurt to keep notes for any given alloy you are using recording mold number and best pour temperature. You can also note where the dial was at on your furnace to get that perfect pouring temperature.

[RogerDat]

Dave I think you are correct, it does not need to be a precise scientific instrument, as long as it is accurate within a few degrees in the critical temp ranges. At this price I would expect the least accuracy would be at the extremes (200 - 1000)
If accurate enough to make it repeatable so that I can repeat prior results, oh and help keep me from cooking all the good stuff out of a melt it will work for me.

I read about testing a cooling pot of lead and recording temp every minute or so, lead should show a leveling off at 621 degrees. So if thermometer reads a couple +/- at that point I will know what to subtract/add to get "real" temp if it ever becomes important. Had a car with a speedometer like that once, worked fine if you knew how to read it.

I will add that this Lyman one is made in China the Tel-Tru one that is cheaper is made in USA, just does not have metal melt ranges marked around the edges. If I had it to do over....

[RogerDat]

Finally got around to taking apart that wood swivel chair from salvation army and making it into a work table. After removing the swivel and seat I decided to reuse the seat wood to make a shelf to sit on the bottom rungs. I'm thinking that I can store my bag of tools on it when not in use. I may try out putting a press on a wood plate and mounting that on this also. If the table bounces or if I try a press on it I may use the shelf for weight to make it bottom heavy and more stable.

Seat was sculpted for butt so I turned the wood over, used the edges I trimmed off in making shelf square to make blocks that are under the shelf and against inside edges of spindles to keep the shelf from sliding off the spindles.

103881

[Texantothecore]

The tools required are few:

Lee Classic Loader
Calipers (to measure overall length)
Hammer plastic faced is easiest but you can put a piece of leather or wood on the top of loader to keep the hammer from damaging it.

Flaring tool about 9 bucks it is used to flare the case mouth to keep from shaving lead off the sides of a lead bullet.

I discovered a few months ago that when I load roundball in my 45-70 I can set the round correctly by simply pushing down on the LCL rather than hammering it. Weird but it works.

Lee dippers will measure your powder. About 10 bucks.

Case lube is not required.

That's it.