SMLE versus No4 - not the same thing!

[303Guy]

Many folks don't seem to realize the SMLE is not a No4. I would post pictures of the two for comparison but for some reason the site won't allow me to. Would one of you good folks post pictures of each, please?

[mdi]

Thanks. I've been calling my Savage Number 4 Mk I* a SMLE, I see now mebbe incorrectly...

[savagetactical]

SMLE

88191

No 4 MK I

88192

[Scharfschuetze]

Here is a side by side view of the SMLE, No 5, No 4, No 4T and the Ishapore 2A1.

By the way Savagetactical, the SMLE you posted a photo of is a very early one, most likely from within the first few years of production. Note the volley sights, and the early positioning of the rear sight protection wings.

[Multigunner]

Some prefer to separate the WW1 era Lee Enfield rifles even further. The Short Magazine Lee Enfield MkI is recognized as the SMLE while some consider the later MkIII to be a SHt LE. Personally I consider any of the WW1 era rifles of that general type as SMLE, the nomenclature was later changed designating the SMLE MkIII and MkIII* as the No.1 rifle.
The No.2 rifle is a SMLE converted to .22 LR rimfire, the No.3 rifle is what we normally recognize as the P-14.

Aside from the general construction of buttstock and its socket with bolt and the magazine theres very little of the original LE and SMLE action remaining in the No.4 rifle design.
Even then butt stocks and magazine seldom interchange without modifications, though a generic butt stock was at one time produced that would fit either rifle, to simplify repairs.
Both have non rotating bolt heads but these are of very different design.
Whether by accident or design most No.1 rifle magazines won't fit a No.4 properly without alteration, and most No.4 magazines won't allow use of the magazine cut off plate if that magazine is used with an SMLE MkIII.

Some SMLE MkI magazines would not feed the MkVI cartridge properly without alteration, those rifles having been designed around the MkVI and earlier cartridges with 215 gr bullet.

[JeffinNZ]

Fastest way to pick between them is a SMLE has open sights, the No4 has an aperture.

[savagetactical]

Here is a side by side view of the SMLE, No 5, No 4, No 4T and the Ishapore 2A1.

By the way Savagetactical, the SMLE you posted a photo of is a very early one, most likely from within the first few years of production. Note the volley sights, and the early positioning of the rear sight protection wings.


Not trying to or wanting to get into a long drawn out discussion on the subject of the Lee Enfield rifle, but the two photos I posted are what the OP ask for. it is more for identification purposes, so one can differentiate between a No 4 and a SMLE, not as an identification of sub variants and years of production. The two photos satisfy that need exactly. Had I posted a photo of a Long Lee or a No 5. Then I could see the relevancy of your reply, as it stands however its not really germane to the OP.

[Scharfschuetze]

It always surprises me when a helpful post is considered a slight, but rest assured that no derision of your internet photo was intended and I presented the info quite oppositely from the way you interpreted it. Only an effort to point out some of the early features of the original SMLE and indicate that the photo is not of the run-of-the-mil SMLE most here are familiar with. Just an observation by one who has handled and fired most of the common Enfields, including the early version you posted the photo of, going back to the "Long" Lee-Metfords as well as the original James Paris Lee 45/70 US Army test rifle that the Lee-Metford and later Enfields were derived from.

As an interesting aside, I've seen both the SMLE and the No 4 rifles in use in South-Central Asia just a few years ago on my penultimate overseas assignment. Both types were in use by the same para military organization.

[303Guy]

Thanks for the photo's.

The designation SHtLE and SMLE seems to have been interchanged quite a bit. I need to check but I think my 1942 Lithgow is stamped SHtLE III*. My 1904 is stamped SHtLE I. (That's the prototype SMLE with half the clip charger guide mounted on the bolthead. Mine's been cut off but I see someone is selling a bolt for one of these rifles with the charger guide and I'm temped to buy it (not cheap) and to restore this rare rifle).

There are also the Cavalry Carbines. I have a barrel for one, with sights.

Now correct me if I'm wrong - the 'new' designation of No1 and so on, includes the Lee Medford, Cavalry Carbine and MLE's - or does it? After all, the No2 is No1 actioned rifle. I think the Lee Speed is of interest too. Would anyone have photo of one? My Dad had one with a machinegun barrel. I had it rebarreled with a new No4 barrel. I foolishly gave it to my nephew-in-law.[smilie=b:

[Scharfschuetze]

I don't know if it's still in print, but Ian Skennerton's book "The Lee-Enfield Story" is a great source for sorting out the various models of long rifles, short rifles and carbines, as well as their marks and variants of the long serving rifle. It's some 500 pages of B&W photos, diagrams and facts that is well written and apparently very well researched.

As you mention variations, a friend of mine has a Lee Speed. Next time I'm up in his vicinity, I'll try and grab a photo for you. We were just at the range on Sunday, but the only Enfield we had with us was my Lithgow SMLE made in 1941. It probably made it to the Papua/New Guinea campaign and perhaps made it over the Owen Stanley Mountains via the Kokoda Track. If rifles could only tell their story.

Poor photo of the book cover I know, but it's night here and it required a flash.

[Multigunner]

Now correct me if I'm wrong - the 'new' designation of No1 and so on, includes the Lee Medford, Cavalry Carbine and MLE's - or does it?
I don't think so.


After all, the No2 is No1 actioned rifle.
I've seen images of .22 trainers built on the earlier actions but these look to have been altered to resemble the No.1

There are some differences in the external appearance of early SMLE action bodies mostly at the rear receiver walls. Later production rifles that suffered cracked action bodies were sometimes repaired using the older style action bodies.

Heres a video showing one of several patterns of Lee Speed sporters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5cI_2aIAz4

Some used a Shotgun style sliding safety mounted in the grip behind the butt socket.

[Scharfschuetze]

Thanks for posting that link Multigunner. My friend's Lee Speed looks just like that one and has an ivory front bead.

Speaking of the .22 Enfield trainers, I have a couple of 'em. A No 2, which is built on an original SMLE action, but with a modified bolt head and extractor for the .22 RF, a Canadian No 7 built on a receiver that to my eye is a duplicate of the No 4 action and a Morris tube (sub cal kit) and bolt that fit into any SMLE 303 rifle. The Morris Tube is much like the sub cal kits for Mauser rifles except that it is threaded at the muzzle and is snugged up and held in place with a threaded nut over the barrel's crown.

When I instructed Boy Scouts marksmanship, I often brought these and other military .22 trainers for them to shoot. They really enjoyed shooting military rifles and the .22 round was perfect for the young Scouts.

The No 2 has the original pre-WW I or early war SMLE deflection and elevation adjustable sight and the No 7 has an aperture sight calibrated for the .22 LR standard velocity round.

Here are the two rifles.

[303Guy]

Thanks, Scharfschuetzer, I'd appreciate that. Thanks for the great photo's too.:drinks: I'm going to check the local library for that book.

My Dad's had the shotgun style safety. It works in reverse to a shotgun though, pushing it forward locks the trigger and I reckon it's a pretty damn safe safety. It cannot get bumped off although dropping the rifle onto its butt might theoretically disengage it and set off the trigger but I doubt it. It didn't lock the bolt either which I like. However, I never use a safety. I carry with the bolt open.

[KCSO]

For you fellow fans of the SMLE/ Mk4 ect... I have from 1959 the E H Harrison articles on the British Miltary rifle with accurizing photos and his Deluxe Sporter from the SMLE. This was a two parter that was the main article in the 59 NRA magazine. If anyone would like a copy PM me and I will try and copy a few off.

[Four Fingers of Death]

What a lot of people don't realise (like me for many years), The SMLE stands for Short Magazine Lee Enfield (most of us know that), but what it really means is, Short (as in Rifle length, not like the very long rifles of the 19th century), Magazine (as in Magazine fitted), Lee Enfield. Basically a short rifle which is magazine fed and it is a Lee style rifle, developed by Enfield.

I carried a SMLE in the school cadets. Most of the cadet rifles that I have seen, appear to be No1 Mk111s and most of the general issue milsurp rifles you strike are No 1 Mk111* variants, which was the latest version and most earlier rifles were upgraded to this when being re-furbished. The school cadet rifles were rarely upgraded once issued to the school.

My SMLE is from a country cadet unit ( I can't think of the town at present). It is a 1924 made (not many made around this period as the factory was just kept ticking over after the War to end all Wars). It is a No1 Mk111.

[Multigunner]

For more information on the Lee Speed rifles the site below
http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Site_Menu.htm
Has links to download PDF files of scans of BSA and Parker Hale catalogs with all sorts of information.
The site also deals with many types of military .22 training rifles among other things.

[Scharfschuetze]

Nice summary of the SMLE abbreviation Fourfingers.

The British powers that were took quite a beating in the press over reducing the length of the infantry rifle and lengthening the cavalry carbine into the single issue No 1/SMLE. Lots of dire predictions were made, but in the end it proved to be a well thought out decision. The Germans ended up doing the same after WW I with the Kar 98, although the small ring Kar 98a was in limited issue during WW I. The US abandoned the rifle/carbine issue with the 1903 as the standard rifle for all troops after issuing cavalry carbines as well as infantry rifles up through the 1898 Krag. The Japanese were a bit late by keeping their Type 38 carbines and rifles right up to WWII, but then issued the standard length Type 99 just before and during the war, although it never fully replaced the longer Type 38.

KCSO, I've sent you a PM regarding your offer of those NRA articles.

[KCSO]

I am going to copy the articles this week and tehn try and scan them into the computer. If I can get them scaned i will try and get them put here somewhere. I will also try and mail out cpies to the folks who asked so please be patient.

[Scharfschuetze]

No hurry KCSO.

[KCSO]

I managed to get them in as PDF's and now I need to convert them to JPEG and get them straight and in order.