help wanted- buckshot small game load for 25-06

[eli]

I want to work up a reduced, single ball load for small game to use with my iron-sighted 25-06.

I am hoping that someone here can provide some suggestions on starting loads, powders and ideal target performance out to 50-100 yards for squirrel and rabbit size game. This way I hope I can get some extra practice with my favorite, non-milsurp hunting rifle and I don't have to worry about wastage of valued, small game meat. It also appeals to me as a good way to get extra value out of a deer hunting trip without having to carry an additional (.22) rifle.

By-the-way, I've seen several articles on doing likewise with .30 caliber rounds and buckshot, but I want 25-06 specific ideas so that's why I'm posting. The rifle is a long barreled Remington BDL and I am concerned about the length of travel for the ball to clear the barrel.

Cheers

[Bret4207]

IIRC start with about 3 gr Bullseye. Work up and down from there till you find what you want.

[Bullshop]

eli
If you are expecting to shoot a light loaded round ball to 100 yards with small game accuracy I think your in for a big surprise. I will go so far as to say that 50 yards may be iffy with a RB load.
My suggestion would be to adjust your sights so to speak and use a boolit for that job. The RB may make a good gallery load bul will fall short for any think like consistant grouping at anything beyond modest range.
There are plenty of good designs available and several have been run as GB's right here.
If you dont have a mold and cant afford one I would bet if you just ask for some samples they will be forthcomming in abundance from members that will eagearly share what they have, and have learned. As a matter of fact I just yesterday received a new 25 cal mold from NEI. It is for a 110gn FNGC and I am anxious to give it a try. What say I start the ball rolling and offer you to become my field tester and I send you a sample of these to try? If a couple other folks join in you should end up with a decent selection of designs to try. From there you can get an idea of what your gun likes and set yourself to getting the mold.
Anyway that what I think about your project and the first offer stands. If you take it then I will have a real good excuse to put that new mold to use.
An iron sighted 25/06, hmmm, strangly differant.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[eli]

Thanks for the feedback guys.
Bret4207, I'll give 3 gr. of Bullseye a try with a Dacron filler for a start and see what that gets me.

Bullshop, I appreciate the offer of the bullets. I do have a cast mold for this rifle, but I don't believe my mold or yours will give a result suitable for squirrels and rabbets. What I hope to do is come close to the performance of the .30 cal. buckshot loads I mentioned earlier. I used the 50-100 yard range as a bench mark to aspire to, similar to what I would expect out of an average .22 lr. I don't know if I'll get there but that is the goal I have in mind at the moment.

As far as iron sights on a 25-06, I dislike scopes and shooting at game at the distances modern scopes engender and so I prefer peep sights like the Lyman this rifle wears. Now that I'm getting older, I might one day scope some .22s for squirrels but for now, I'll stick to peeps or open sights. The flat shooting 25-06 is ideal, imo, for iron sights and is my favorite non-military center-fire caliber, bar non. It is the rifle I prefer to hunt with as so it is the rifle I'd like to try to keep in action all through both small and big game seasons. Perhaps this is not realistic, but until I try, I don't know what won't work.

[Bret4207]

How about a 65 gr FPGC Lyman jobbie? Lots for sale on the auction sites, or new, and they would carry better to 100 yards than a round ball. Nice FN to do in those sabertooth wabbits too. IIRC Bullseye isn't position sensitive so you might not need the dacron. Unique might work also.

That giant overbore 25/06 case might benefit from a trick Jim Carmichael wrote up years ago. He took a 223 case, cut the base off, expanded the '06 or 308 case mouth till he could get the 223 into it and then sized it back down. This gave him a much reduced capacity for shooting cast, while retaining the original chambering.

[Bullshop]

So that would be like a permanent case filler, how vawy vawy clever.
Good luck with the RB project Eli. Let me know if I was wrong about the range limit.
BIC/BS

[Bret4207]

Another thought I had for the oversize cartridges and cast or reduced loads is to fill the case to the neck with an epoxy like Accra Glass. Let it harden and then drill a full length hole to the primer, say 1/4" diameter. This would give a much reduced powder capacity. I've never tried it, but it would seem it would work.

[Larry Gibson]

.......That giant overbore 25/06 case might benefit from a trick Jim Carmichael wrote up years ago. He took a 223 case, cut the base off, expanded the '06 or 308 case mouth till he could get the 223 into it and then sized it back down. This gave him a much reduced capacity for shooting cast, while retaining the original chambering.

That was with a .223 case in a .308 (5.56 in a 7.62). I made up 50 such cases following his instructions. Was a real pain ing a**. I also found little benificial effect as accuracy above a certain velocity did not improve. I was unaware of the effect RPM had back then. I also had consistantly larger extreme spreads of velocity with those cases than with a regular .308 case using the same powder and a dacron filler. Itwas supposed to have a smaller ES as the smaller capcity case was to be more efficeint. I think the heavier, double layer of brass was obsorbing the energy in an inconsistant manner creating the larger ES variation. Anyways after some experimentation over a couple years with those cases using several different cast bullets and powders I finally determined they weren't worth the effort.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

eli

I have worked, several times over the years, with buckshot loads in several calibers. You will be disappointed if you are shooting past 50 feet. The twist is just too fast and they sail off down and away, low and inside, up and away, etc. because they act like a screwball or curve ball much past 50 feet. The only ones I got it to shoot well out to 50 yards was with slower twist larger calibers with 12" twist (.308 and 375 H&H) and the larger .35s with 14/16" twists and the .45 calibers with 18/22" twists. Nothing with a 10" or faster twist shot well past 50 feet regardless of load.

Even with the success I did have with some cartridges using buckshot or RBs I always have gone back to using a light for caliber PB bullet (most often a pistol bullet if available) for plinking and small game. Yu will be far and ahead getting a RCBS 25-85-CM (PB 85 gr bullet made for Cowboy Action shooting for the 25-20) 2 cavity mould. Over 2.5 -4 gr of Bullseye you will find what you want. I'd bet that bullet can be loaded in the 900 to 1050 fps range and will give very, very good accuracy out of your 25-06 out to 100 yards.

However, if you insist on trying buckshot then I found Bullseye to be the best powder, no wad or filler and always between 3-4 gr with velocities in the 800 fps regardless of cartridge. BS or RBs were lightly lubed with LLA. You will also do better with dedicated cases for this load that are well fire formed and have the flasholes drilled out with a #28 drill. This will eliminate case shoulder set back. Save yourself the frustration and get the RCBS mould. They can be shot as cast after a light tumble coat of LLA is applied.

Larry Gibson

[35remington]

Eli, I also will second the suggestions that your hopes for a humble hunk of buckshot are very, very optimistic.

"I do have a cast mold for this rifle, but I don't believe my mold or yours will give a result suitable for squirrels and rabbets."

As one who has shot literally hundred of squirrels and rabbits using .25 caliber bullets, primarily with the RCBS Cowboy .25 Larry has suggested, or occasionally with the Lyman 257420 or one of the Group Buy .25 moulds run here, I can confirm that these loads are VERY suitable for squirrels and rabbits, killing very well while ruining no meat to speak of. These are far and away more suitable for small game hunting than any buckshot load. In the .25-20 the RCBS Cowboy dispatches small game very well and is ideal for what you are trying to accomplish in developing a small game load. My favorite load for small game runs at the same velocity range Larry has suggested, about 1080 to 1150 fps depending upon whether I'm using a dose of W231 or Unique. Both were selected for quietness and accuracy with little fouling.

Just trying to save you some time and aggravation.

[eli]

Thanks for the additional information everyone, it's very appreciated.

Taking everything that's been said into account, I believe what I'll do is to take a shot at both the buckshot and cowboy round loads at the same time and see how they work out as small game ammo. What's important is that I end up with a humane killer that allows me to harvest game without excess wastage and keep my favorite hunter in action.

If the buckshot can't give me a suitable performance in .25 caliber, I am somewhat concerned that the #3 buck is too light for good results and 50 feet is too limited to be practicable, I can always move that project onto larger calibers in the .30 -.32 range and revisit what others have done. I've several milsurps, as well as a good 30-06 to work with and perhaps one of these will be a good match for this type round, though off hand, I think almost all have a 1:10 rate of twist.

If anyone has a good used .25 cowboy mold for sale, a pm would be welcomed.

Eli

[Bullshop]

You seem to stress the point of not being overly destructive to small game. The RCBS cowboy boolit is a flat nose and at a velocity that will have a reasonably flat trajectory to 100 yards that flat nose will be quite destructive, at least to some game. I know at the speeds mentioned it will ruin a rough grouse if hit in the brest. Maybe you can see good enough to make a head shot with irons at 100 yards but I cant, I have to shoot for the middle which is all I can see. I have a couple old Herters molds for pointed boolit that may work better for preserving edible meat. I cant remember for sure but think they are about 80gn and 100gn. I would consider a trade for one or both. I have a real old Saeco mold for about the same thing at about 90gn and I will keep the Saeco.
Let me know if your interested.
BIC/BS

[35remington]

If you keep the RCBS flatnose around 11-1200 fps or less there's little damage to most game. Rabbits have a nice round .4-.5 inch hole through the tenderloin at such speeds but it's not at all bloodshot. I keep it around 1100 mostly for low noise levels.

Squirrels take a little more killing than rabbits and this bullet drops them out of the trees like you whacked them with a bat. They seem to take a pretty hard blow from this bullet. Feral cats and possums and even coons don't hold up under a well placed shot.

That speed will get you to 60, maybe 70 yards at the outside but thats 99% of the small game hunting you'll realistically do. Trajectory for certain hits runs out before killing power does. Like Bullshop said, if you speed it up to 100 yard trajectory you'll start damaging meat. I agree that a pointed design might be better at higher speeds but I always thought a small game load should be on the quiet side. Which is why I like the flatpoint at .22LR speeds.

Should be fun developing loads for that rifle.

[Bret4207]

The more I think about it the more I think you need 2 loads. One for your small game- say a 75-85 gr Loverin RN at 11-1400fps, what ever is accurate. The other would be something along the lines of Bullshops spire point in the 90- 100 gr area for a 100 yard load at higher speeds, say up to 1700-1800 fps if you can find an accurate load. That will be the sticky point in all this, finding a reliably accurate load. Personally I'd try for an accurate small game load and try and figure the elevation for longer shots. Unless your small game is a lot larger than mine, 50-60 yards with open sights is about it for me.