another Trail Boss post

[bigted]

I have read and seen many posts about the evils of this powder. been on the web site and read their pressure readings. I have also used this evil powder in modern rifles with mixed success however ... my fevered brain got started tody and I recall some other reading I have done concerning blackpowder and its normal and peak pressure's. so here is my statement and then later my question;

reading the Spence Wolf book "loading cartridges for the 45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine" I see pressure readings for normal and peak CUP's with blackpowder using both 2F and 3F GOEX powder.

loading the 405 grain cast bullet ... the Arsenal published CUP readings are;
A- 70 grains 2F = 17,600 CUP normal and 19,000 CUP peak pressure.
B- 63 grains 3F = 19,500 CUP normal and 20,300 CUP peak pressure.
C- these are the 1873 rifle loads

loading the 500 grain cast bullet ... the Arsenal published CUP readings are;
A- 70 grains 2F = 19,770 CUP normal and 21,600 CUP peak pressure.
B- 70 grains 3F = 25,800 CUP normal and 29,600 CUP peak pressure ...[1881 load].
C- the A load is a M1882 & M1888 load and the B load is a M1881 3F load.

interesting still more is this last load;
A- 40 grains of IMR3031 powder = 21,600 normal CUP and 26,700 CUP peak pressure ... this is a M1898 load.

now my statement based upon these 45-70 blackpowder loads are this;

the combination of the M-1881 500 grain lead cast bullet loaded ahead of a load of 70 grains 3F GOEX blackpowder nets a pressure of 25,800 CUP and with a peak pressure of 29,600 CUP in this load. this is a huge surprise to me when the books all say that the ceiling pressure is around 25,000 CUP. here is loads that exceed this ceiling by 4,600 CUP and these are the blackpowder loads we all see as safe in all actions. even the later SMOKLESS loads used in the M1898 load are exceeded in CUP pressure by around 3,000 CUP's.

I have read this book several times and never gave the Arsenal findings a second glance till now when upon mulling around safe loads for my roller and trapdoor and remembering these statements of Mr. Wolf I re-read the loading section and funny ... I finally read his warning for these loads;

"Warning; as you will note, all these pressures are above the 15,000 - 18,000 CUP limits given by several authorities. the above figures are for information only and are not recommended as to the use and safety of any of these methods, components, loadings or cartridges listed Therefor I DO NOT recommend the loading or firing of any of the above cartridges listed ... "

now we all know that we use these loads on an everyday basis and never give a thought on how close or over the recommended pressures we come to using the dreaded blackpowder.

so here at last is my question;

what can the Trail Boss do that our already higher then recommended bp loads don't? seems to me that the graph's show a similar pressure spike as blackpowder and I don't recall them going over the 29,600 ceiling of our regular loaded blackpowder loads.

can we do a comparison of these real pressures and come to a safe and sound use of this Trail Boss powder in our oldies rifles? OR ... is the Warnings given by others and myself [without looking it up for myself] a sound Warning or should we give this a second look?

this is what happens in Alaska when there is too much snow and cold temp's outside. start thinkin and this is just about the most foolish thing to do when Stuck inside ... guess ill install more clothing and go outside and do something to clear my mind.

thanks for the interest.

[oldred]

The biggest thing that sticks in my mind about the TrailBoss is the higher pressures at HALF the velocity! These max TB loads are pushing the limits for a BP loading but not getting nearly the velocity, my question is if pop-gun velocities are desired for whatever reasons wouldn't it make sense to use something that would yield pressures more in line with the lower velocity? I think we have all seen posts from folks who just assume that due to the very low performance that TB yields they just automatically assume the pressure must be low, in this game "assuming" can lead to disaster! Still TB does not seem to have a reputation for blowing up guns but has it happened? Who knows, maybe it has and maybe not. I can see maybe a dangerous situation with a really big case in an old original BP firearm where TB could easily exceed the load pressures the gun was meant for.

[bigted]

I agree with your sentiments and even tho I have a large container of the stuff I rarely use it as I can do the same velocity with a dab of Unique but what caught my attention was the comparison of CUP pressures in a side o side comparison with the stated pressures of IMR with their provided loads.

it be a great handgun powder and this is primarily what I use it in ... 45 colt and 357 mag loads are mild and very fun to shoot without getting beat or miss use the revolver.

I also agree with the "ASSUMING" thing. very poor thing to do when loading for firearms.

[Doc_Stihl]

It's been, in my limited experience, that trail boss works better with Hollow Base and VERY soft alloys than say unique. I think you get a bit of slap similar to the BP kicking off and it helps with some loads.

[bigted]

just loaded some of the Lee 405-459-HB boolits ...[I like these better each time I use them]... and 13 grains Trail Boss. what fun and in my winchester 1885 it hits very close to aim.

[singleshot]

I think the only benefits of TB over BP is you use about 1/6th the powder and no BP fouling. Other than that, I think BP is a better propellant, and certainly more tolerant using appropriate loading procedures. Where BP REALLY SHINES in my book, is if you make your own!

[357Mag]

BigT -

Howdy !

IMHO -
" Trailboss " had its roots started-out in the " Cowboy Action Realm ". The powder's label depicts a " cowboy " theme.
TB's bulky-ness and pressure curve were taylored to allow use in ( many ) cartridges that were formerly or " originally " BP rounds. The bulkiness helps to better fill-up the cases ( vs small charges of faster smokeless propellants, while achievable pressures posed no threat of damage to the gun ( following Hogdon's TB load work-up instruction ).

The Cowboy Action clan is known to make use of " controlled power " loads, and not so much the full-tilt stuff. And here's where TB can fit in, as chuck-full ( or nearly full ) cases will produce modest recoil..... often w/ quite useful accuracy. Those kinds of things Cowboy Action folks can make use of, and Hogdon was astute enough to provide.


For an example TB use in a more-modern " smokeless " case design, I can relate this about its use in .35Rem:
Under a .358" cal Rem 150PSP ( " plated " ), I was able to safely fill the .35Rem case completely full w/ TB ( some 14.5gr ), and chamber pressures remained just fine. Accuracy was superb, recoil negligible; and the M-336 XLR's barrel was easy to clean.

Those are some things which Trailboss can provide, when it is a good fit for the intended application.


With regards,
357Mag

[bigted]

I do not have a quarrel about the use of TB ... but ... just wanted to comment on the depiction of the TB pressures compared to BP. I ... among others have been casting disparaging remarks on using the TB in older weapons when in fact I find ... with regards to the 45-70 cartridge ... that the original loads in BP ...[according to the Arsenal loadings reported by Spence Wolf in his book]... that the pressure is actually higher in the BP loads then in the RECOMENDED TB loads. the only thing I see is that indeed ... the TB loads are very lite in speed and power ... which is a good thing in some applications. practice and rock busting are among other pastimes that can and do benefit from the liter loads in TB.

[MT Gianni]

Every time someone tries to talk me into using TB I balk at the 9 oz for 1 lb price.

[bigted]

based on my 45-70 loads here is what I come up with as economics per CANISTER of powder between Trail Boss and GOEX 2F.

the Trail Boss comes in a canister containing 9 ounces of powder which according to the load data ... equals out to 302 loads [of 13 grains each] ...[the max charge for a 405 grain boolit] per canister of powder.

the GOEX 2F powder contains 7000 grains of powder which according to my loads ... equals out to 100 loads [of 70 grains each] ... also the agreed upon load for a 405 grain boolit] ... per canister of powder.

now if we take a price such as 24 dollars per canister for each [outta the blue for comparison] and divide the loads per canister for a cost per load we get;

Trail Boss = approx. .08 cents per load.

GOEX 2F = approx. .24 cents per load.

so for a canister of Trail Boss we can get around 3 times the loads per canister then we can get outta a canister of GOEX 2F powder. not sayin they compare in velocity nor power ... BUT ... as a straight up comparison of cost per load ... the Trail Boss is definitely the better deal [cost wise] for cowboyin n such or just pounding rocks ... will never take the place of the other powders but ... it has its place and does so pretty cheap even tho you only get 9 ounces per canister.

[cheetah]

Trail Boss is closer to half the price of a pound - $15 today at an ordinary dealer. What can it do? I've never had to take a Saturday night tub with a TB fired barrel.

[wellfedirishman]

I love TB in 45-70 cowboy loads and standard military rifle (30-06, 7mm Mauser, 8mm Mauser, 303 British, etc.). Great accuracy, clean to shoot, tons of fun.

[Four-Sixty]

I just shot 8 grains TB under the Lee 170 boolit in new 30-30 cases yesterday. Boy, those cases barely looked fired when I was done. Seemed to shoot to point of aim at 100 yards, after I raised the front sight.

If this powder costs twice as much as Unique to use, but I can make the 30-30 more fun for everyone to shoot - it's worth it!

[blixen]

It might just be my rifles, but I've never been able to get TB to give me accuracy anywhere near as good as i get from Red/Green Dot and 2400 in low velocity loads. Also I find it a hassle to reload with because it throws wildly inconsistently from my powder measure, so i have weight every load.

After reading this thread, I gave it another try today in my Mod. 94 Win. with a receiver sight. I'm getting three-inch groups at 100 yards from 8 grains of Green Dot, but miserable 8-inch groups with 9 grains of Trail Boss. This is with a 170grain flat-point, gas-checked boolit. I've also tried TB at loads between 5 and 9 grains with no better luck.

Still, I'll likely try it in my military rifles because I've got a half a jug of it to get rid of.

[fouronesix]

Also I find it a hassle to reload with because it throws wildly inconsistently from my powder measure, so i have weight every load.


??Interesting. TB is far the most accurate and consistent powder I drop from a Lyman/Ideal 55 measure.

The only hassle I find with it is static electricity flings the fluffy kernels all over the place when handling. :)

I use a lot of TB for low vel cast loads in the higher expansion ratio cartridges like the 38 Spl, 44-40 and 45 ACP.

[rbuck351]

I have tried it in a few different cartridges and found it to be underwhelming.

[oldred]

I have tried it in a few different cartridges and found it to be underwhelming.



Very underwhelming indeed! I found it to be quite useless due to it's pop-gun velocities and when I found it was yielding those velocities at fairly high pressures in the large case (45/70) I was loading I just gave away what I had left. HOWEVER that was just me! I have no use for slingshot velocities but lots of other folks do and for them this stuff seems to be the kitty cat's meow so apparently it does have it's place, still I find it (for my use) just as you do -to be quite underwhelming.



If there is a downside to TB for the folks who want the low velocities, and lots of folks do, it's the misunderstanding that some seem to have that the low velocity automatically translates into low pressures which "could" (????) be dangerous if it's substituted for BP in large cases in an old original BP firearm.

[fouronesix]

Hard to educate loaders about TB! It has a burn rate similar to Bullseye and 700X, yet folks still can't figure out why the low velocities at safe pressures. :???:

For me it has the same application parameters as any FAST pistol powder but it has two attributes I like- accurate metering through a measure and double-charge avoidance safety because of its bulkiness.

[hickstick_10]

I still have most of my first pound of that powder, its kinda neat how quiet a load will shoot and how clean it is. I swear it shoots quiter then a 22lr, when its loaded in a 38 special out of a rifle.

But I've gone through about 5 pounds of unique for that 1 oz of TB I used, I might use some more but it will be awhile. The less weight per pound flustered me to at first, but they fill that jar right to the top. For what it does and what its designed for it just can't topple Unique dirty shooting aside.

[bigted]

not pickin nor needing a quarrel but as my first post suggests ... i found that maybe the TB in the suggested loads seem to have less or the same as the BP loads found in Spence Wolf's book. so the question im asking is a two fold question i guess;

1- is Spence's spec's that he quoted in his book wrong in the pressures quoted for the Arsenal loads?

2- i ... personally have never read an account of any firearm in sound shape being harmed with this TB powder ... have any of you?

i have no stake in this discussion except for my own real education and not based on hear say from folks that may have a stake in it. i burn just about pure BP loads in most of my shootin irons and so just brought this discussion up again for clarification on the pressures i found in the Wolf book concerning the Arsenal BP loads and their pressures.

i would welcome any real and feasible arguments to this discussion and look forward to the enlightenment that will shine on the subject from a scientific standpoint ... not that i will be able to understand scientific-ease tho ... LOL. please dont hold my feet to a burning pine knot.

[bigted]

not pickin nor needing a quarrel but as my first post suggests ... i found that maybe the TB in the suggested loads seem to have less or the same as the BP loads found in Spence Wolf's book. so the question im asking is a two fold question i guess;

1- is Spence's spec's that he quoted in his book wrong in the pressures quoted for the Arsenal loads?

2- i ... personally have never read an account of any firearm in sound shape being harmed with this TB powder ... have any of you?

i have no stake in this discussion except for my own real education and not based on hear say from folks that may have a stake in it. i burn just about pure BP loads in most of my shootin irons and so just brought this discussion up again for clarification on the pressures i found in the Wolf book concerning the Arsenal BP loads and their pressures.

i would welcome any real and feasible arguments to this discussion and look forward to the enlightenment that will shine on the subject from a scientific standpoint ... not that i will be able to understand scientific-ease tho ... LOL. please dont hold my feet to a burning pine knot.

[blixen]

??Interesting. TB is far the most accurate and consistent powder I drop from a Lyman/Ideal 55 measure.

For the record: I'm using a Hornady Lock-n-Load measure. I try to keep my loads +or- 0.1 grains without having to resort to the trickler. The TB loads vary from + or - 0.3-0.4 requiring me to either trickle or throw them over again until they fall within the margin of error.

Note: I've been handloading only about 4 years--maybe I'm expecting too much for casual shooting and maybe such measurement accuracy is obsessive with Trail Boss. (?) I always count on this board to set me straight. Thanks.

[fouronesix]

Very possible with any particular design of measure. The Lyman 55 (the only type measure I use) is a rotating drum type measure that also incorporates two addition "sectioned" brass slices for fine tuning dropped charges. I've no experience with the Lock n Load system. With an extremely low density powder like TB, I can see where "bridging" along with some "static cling" might be a problem with a measure design that incorporates narrow and/or deep passages or cavities.

[Four-Sixty]

What type of crimp are folks using? If this is a fast powder, could a light crimp contribute to poor performance?

I claim TB works good. I use the Lee FCD and put a heavy crimp on it. Could the crimp pressue have a heavy bearing on the performance of this powder?

[revor]

Here's to dig up an old thread.. Just like a noob should right.
My quest for a nice mellow BP load for 40-65 lead me to the Hodgdon loading data site.
I find it remarkable that the pressures are lower for similar velocities across the board when using everything but TB. And looking at the 4007ssc in the following chart... Well I want that powder..
My goal for my old rifles is low pressure and BP like accuracy in that 1300 FPS range.
400 GR. LRNFP IMR IMR 4007 SSC .409" 2.780" 37.0 1327 13,000 CUP 40.0C 1467 23,900 CUP
400 GR. LRNFP Hodgdon Varget .409" 2.780" 35.0 1438 20,100 CUP 38.0 1558 24,800 CUP
400 GR. LRNFP Hodgdon H4895 .409" 2.780" 33.0 1423 19,700 CUP 36.0 1554 24,200 CUP
400 GR. LRNFP IMR IMR 8208 XBR .409" 2.780" 30.8 1409 24,300 CUP 32.4 1462 25,100 CUP
400 GR. LRNFP Hodgdon Benchmark .409" 2.780" 29.0 1321 18,800 CUP 32.5 1491 25,000 CUP
400 GR. LRNFP Hodgdon H322 .409" 2.780" 30.5 1398 19,200 CUP 33.0 1520 23,900 CUP
400 GR. LRNFP IMR IMR 4198 .409" 2.780" 25.2 1373 22,000 CUP 26.5 1446 25,200 CUP
400 GR. LRNFP Hodgdon H4198 .409" 2.780" 28.0 1441 21,200 CUP 31.0 1572 24,700 CUP
400 GR. LRNFP Hodgdon H4227 .409" 2.780" 20.0 1277 18,900 CUP 23.0 1410 24,900 CUP
400 GR. LRNFP IMR Trail Boss .409" 2.780" 11.0 889 20,000 CUP 12.0 915 21,200 CUP
Sorry if it's a little busy. I called Hodgdon and they said the data was correct.
I really don't see a good reason for TB or am I missing something here?

[oldred]

I have posted similar data for 45/70 and I too fail to see the advantage of using this powder in large cases, it may be the icing for the cake for low power pistol rounds but there are MUCH better choices for the big ole' BP cartridges if smokeless is desired. In the 45/70 there are some loads for TB that have almost twice the pressure as similar velocity loads with some other powders, I guess I'm missing something too.

[Groo]

Groo here
Yes you are missing something.....
BP is an explosive , Smokeless powder is a flamable solid.
2 verry different things....
This is why you can damage a bp frame with a low pressure smokeless load where the BP works fine.
Smokless will burn longer and apply the pressure over time giving you more speed.
BP burns almost all at once , giving you a hammer hit to the bullet spreading the base but following off almost as fast.
TB usually shows clean cases where light loads of other powders will be dirty, the cases are not sealing.
TB is fine if you are using it as intended, light slow loads in BP cases with out worry for a double charge.

[oldred]

Groo here
Yes you are missing something.....
BP is an explosive , Smokeless powder is a flamable solid.
2 verry different things....
This is why you can damage a bp frame with a low pressure smokeless load where the BP works fine.
Smokless will burn longer and apply the pressure over time giving you more speed.
BP burns almost all at once , giving you a hammer hit to the bullet spreading the base but following off almost as fast.
TB usually shows clean cases where light loads of other powders will be dirty, the cases are not sealing.
TB is fine if you are using it as intended, light slow loads in BP cases with out worry for a double charge.


Well I think we are aware of the BP vs smokeless but the point is that with TB those smokeless pressures can be a LOT higher in a big case for a similar velocity load using certain other smokeless powders. The point about the clean cases may well be valid but what we are taking about is that if smokeless is desired for a particular large case round the pressure could be rather high, the point is that it could be a mistake to just automatically assume (as some apparently do) that TB loads are very low pressure because of the low velocity they yield. Relative to the velocity numbers they achieve sometimes these TB loads can be quite high in the big cases, still around top BP pressures when properly loaded but much lower pressure smokeless loads are out there in the same velocity range. For instance these 45/70 loads, these are comparing min to min loads,

405 GR. CAST LFP Hodgdon H4198 27.0 1251 FPS @14,200 CUP

vs

405 GR. CAST LFP IMR Trail Boss 12.0 GR. 971 FPS @24,500 CUP



I'm not saying that there's anything particularly wrong with the TB load but it produces 280 FPS less velocity at a whopping 10,300 CUP more pressure than the 4198 load. That's just one example of many and others show loads of TB producing substantially less velocity (I realize that's the goal sometimes) but at equal or greater pressures than some other smokeless loads.

[dualsport]

I've used TrailBoss in a H&R .444 Marlin and got amazing results, almost varmint gun accuracy. Headshots on a squirrel at 100 yds. good. My 45-70 hasn't liked it so much so far.

[revor]

I'm happy to see there are others that question the value of TB for general shooting. I might still pick some up but I'll probably not stoot it in my old Marlin Ballards or 81 Marlin (that live on light 4759 loads) until I understand it better....
Rather than completely dis the product I'd like to understand it more. I can shoot the 40-65 around 1300 FPS with the Black I'm looking for similar pressures (probably what around 18000?) looking at the 4007SSC load it's nuts at 13,000 CUP for 1300 FPS

[Zubley]

Trail Boss is a Cat's Meow in my Buffalo Classic

[MOA]

well, let me throw my 2 cents in. In general the only reason trail boss was developed was for the cowboy shooting sports arena. The need for one to be able to load many of the old caliber BP cartridges that were being used in modern day reproductions handguns. This powder was developed specifically for shooting in six shooters. Has it been found to have other applications, yes. But its main reason for being is, it brings to the table a powder that is safe in large caliber six shooters. I is almost impossible to double charge a case by accident. It is clean burning so the clean up of cases and firearms does not have the downside of BP. It does not have the corrosive nature of BP either.:coffeecom

well, since I have just lost two thirds of my post, which I shall not bother to retype, and since the auto save function on the site does not seem to function very well, let me suffice to say, as long as the load is safe in my gun, I will deal with the other downside areas of a powders shortcomings. If we decide to use a powder for an application it was not meant for it is not the powders fault.

[oldred]

If we decide to use a powder for an application it was not meant for it is not the powders fault.


And therein lies the point I have tried to make about TB, judging by many posts I have read and also from talking with some shooters a lot of folks tend to automatically (and very mistakenly) ASSUME that the very low velocities of TB means it is also very low pressure, obviously that's not always true! In pistol cartridges I don't see how a loading could reach much pressure at all but in large BP rifle calibers these pressures could be quite high for some of the weaker actions, especially if the person loading the ammo ASSUMES this powder must be low pressure if it creates such low velocity.


As with ANY powder following proper procedures, manufacturer recommendations and never ASSUMING anything is the key to safe loading/shooting.

[Baja_Traveler]

During the peak of the powder shortage I bought 6 cans of Trail Boss to use in my 38-55 for levergun silhouette. I like a load that is just enough to reliably knock over the 200 yard ram - anything more is just wasted powder.
I'm finding that I really like this powder for this use - mild recoil and very accurate out of my Legendary Frontiersman, but I whole heartedly encourage as many of you as possible to find it useless so I can continue to find it on the shelf...

[oldred]

BT no one is saying the stuff is useless, it would make for a boring sport if there was only one powder available, just that TB needs to be treated with the same respect as any other powder and that there seems to be a misconception that low velocity means low pressure which has resulted in some using it improperly. I am NOT saying it's somehow been a problem and there have been accidents resulting from it, if there have been I have personally never heard of one (yet!), but the assumption that the low velocity automatically means low pressures could be a problem when used in older arms of weaker materials and design so it obviously could be a bad choice depending on the caliber/firearm if low pressure is the goal.

I personally know one fellow who has shot this stuff in a TC Hawken in the mistaken belief that it was a BP sub! Fortunately the only incident was excess gas discharge from the nipple and fragments of the cap striking him in the face with no real injury except for a couple of minor blisters on his cheek and a severely injured pride after having laughed at his brother-in-law who had warned him not to do it!

[bigted]

well this has been a fun post i must say. there are no findings that would discourage me in the use of Trail Boss powder and for the lite recoil and accurate shooting as well as the clean residue ... i will continue to use it for the low yield loadings looked for.

i see several folks of a fairly popular sort that exhibit shoot with very low loads in both revolvers and rifles and they load very lite to do so. there is a reason that a revolver can be shot so rapidly with no deviation on target ... namely LOW RECOIL loads. rifles the same way in a lever action speed race on steel targets.

i see no solid facts to discourage the use of this powder in its particular arena and so i rest my case and having no scientific findings to the opposite ... i will in some circumstances ... continue its use.

thankyou every one that has contributed to this post and like i mentioned above ... it has been a very fun post to read and see the opinions given here. keep shooting and keeping it safe.

[nekshot]

I think my responses to posts of TP are consistant. I love the stuff but only for going real slow! I do not get the thought pattern of trying to push TP. BUT, I was messing around with a 7mm rem mag this past fall and it really shot nice 1 inch groubs at 80 yards on a consistant basis with the 7mm soup can boolit. The 168 gr opened up a little bit but I was using 3/4 case full loads and I never go this far with TP in other cartridges. I don't plan on doing it again with the 7mag but it did open my eyes to some other possibilities for it.

[Whiterabbit]

Every single person here who is "against" trailboss is in the same camp: trying to make the powder into something it is not. There is more to life than velocity, and if you disagree with that then there are much better powders for you!

And if your response to that is "well, people need to respect trailboss", then that's their business, not yours. People probably laugh at you for not voting democrat too, but you don't complain about them, do you? you just wipe them off the bottom of your shoe in some wet grass and move on.

Same with this. Sounds to me like some folks here got teased by trailboss lovers who have some of their facts mixed up and are taking it out on the powder rather than ignoring the ID-10-T.

[YunGun]

Agreed - treat it just like any other fast pistol powder in regards to pressure.
You don't just keep adding more Bullseye to a case in order to go faster (if you value your life, extremities or firearms, that is!)

Just pretend the label reads: "New & Improved Formula - now with 80% more empty space FREE!"