Shot an interesting...

[Scharfschuetze]

... rifle today.

We had one of our bi-monthly shoot-a-thons to day and it's always a treat to see who will bring out the neatest piece of hardware. Today was a military rifle day and the coolest rifle by far was this Walther G-41 (W) rifle from WW II. It is in absolutely mint condition and while the shooting was limited, we did find it capable of bouncing around brick-a-brack quite well at a 100 yards.

[leadman]

I have never seen on of those, let alone shot one. You are lucky.

[Multigunner]

They say the German high Command was leary of any autoloader action that required a gas port drilled in the barrel so the gas trap of this action appealed to them.
I've heard the early Garand with gas trap was slightly more accurate than the later ported barrel Garand, and the same has been said of the Walther rifle.
Gas traps were a bit less durable and more likely to suffer damage.

That's a great looking rifle.

[RickinTN]

Neat rifle. I'm not familiar with them but glad you had the opportunity to see and shoot one. One thing about the photo that "glares" at me.....No eye protection. Sorry to pick at you but you may thank me someday.
Rick

[1Shirt]

Nice looking weapon, thanks for pic! Agree with Rick!
1Shirt!

[MtGun44]

Hope that eye protection was used for actual shooting.

I have shot a G43, but never the G41. Looks like a nice example.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

Scharfshuetzer is too modest.

The young man shooting the G41 is his son, William who is home on leave. He is a US Army Ranger with much experience and is about to get more after reporting back (read between the lines on that one). I've watched William grow up and his father and mother have raised him to be one of the finest young men I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. I hope I may have assisted a bit along the way. He also is an outstanding shot as his father and I had access to a wide variety of weapons not only of our own but those in the Special Forces Armory where we both worked and served. I've many fond memories of William hardly able to hold up many of the weapons like the MP40 or the Thompson sub gun on the indoor range....shooting cast bullets of course! How many young men do you know (in the smallest pair of BDU's we could find....he still looked like sad sack though!) get smuggled onto a Army base to shoot a 106 Recoiless rifle? Well William was and what a hoot that day was! William is also the one that made my wonderful loading bench, work bench and cabinets for me (pictures posted on the loading bench thread) right before he went on active duty a couple years ago. Sharfschuetzer should be and is very proud of William. I know I am.

God bless him and his fellow Rangers and speed them all home again safe and sound.

Larry Gibson

[Hardcast416taylor]

About 25 years back I acquired a very nice G-43 Walther from a fellow. I made him a hunting knife for the rifle. The cast metal dust cover was broken in half on the recievor. The fellow was using the rifle, his Dad brought it home from the war, for deer hunting. They had already modified the box magazine to accept only 5 rounds. They were using Remington factory 170 gr. "J" bullet ammo as nobody in his family handloaded or cast. Well, he was checking the zero at a bench at a shooting range when the cast dust cover cracked in half on recoil sending the rear broken half into his face. He suffered a broken cheek bone broken nose cracked the eyebrow upper structure over his right eye and did alot of lacerations to the face in general. He was going to toss the rifle in the junk until he heard about my knife making. I have heard about the cast iron metal dust covers being weak and prone to cracking under the striking of the gas piston rod. Also there is the possabilities of slave labor sabatoge during the war putting too much sand in the iron when it was poured. I have acquired a replacement dust cover for the G-43, but have yet to shoot it as this cover is also cast iron. Luckily my friend didn`t loose an eye or anything else on his face, just a bunch of scars.Robert

[Multigunner]

You might take the replacement cover to a well equipped auto parts supply store and have it magnafluxed to be sure its in good condition with no inclusions or cracks.
Theres a lot of race car and hotrod building in this county so some auto supply stores here have this sort of specialized equipment.

Remington 8mm loads aren't hot, so it might be an excessive gas port pressure situation. Either from slow powder or an eroded gas vent bleeding too much gas into the expansion chamber.
I'd check the gas port first.
I've seen an over sized gas port on a Garand barrel that had been repaired by dove tailing a piece of stainless steel over it and drilling a new port. Only reason I spotted it was the new gas port was a hair off center.

Would a stronger actuator rod spring reduce the slamming of the cover?
Garand bolts sometimes slam into the rear of the receiver, in some cases breaking out the rear of the receiver. They annealed these by dipping in molten lead to prevent cracking.

Use a light cast Boolit load just strong enough to cycle the action and you should not have a repeat of this breakage.

PS
Found this


Late rifles will also have two 4mm holes drilled at the rear of the gas cylinder also to aid in bleeding off excessive gasses from damaging the action.
Check your cylinder to see if it has these holes.

also


There is also a dust cover for the bolt housing. there are 4 distinct types. the first is an internal reciprocating or "automatic" dustcover for the milled steel G41 type bolt housings. the second is a stamped reciprocating type which rode on the top of the stamped housing. these parts were prone to breakage and jamming and often were discarded in the field. a field modification was made in late 1944 in which the raised bump that locked into the bolt carrier was removed. later still, a fourth style of manual operation was fabricated.

http://www.gewehr43.com/info.html

[gew98]

Well I did'nt "they say , or heard this " hogwash. I've owned G41w's and a G41M.
The G41M was a machinist's nightmare prone to selfdestructing...junk from the get go.
The G41's made by walther and 'duv' were very accurate and reliable rifles. Their main fault was production time/cost and they were vulberable to corrosion and fouling buliding up in the gas cone which would cause problems in a heated environment.
The G/K43 rifles...uber junk !. I shot several to peices back in the day until replacement part costs became prohibitive. Had a minty duv44 crack it's receiver after less than a dozen rounds... scrapped that *** !.
Practical experiance speaking here..not the I heard or they say bunk types.

[Multigunner]

Seems like a lot of the rifles you own fall apart, perhaps user error plays a part, or not listening to others and investigating possible issues before they present themselves.
Bargain basement milsurp ammo is another likely cause of premature self destruction of rifles that might last for generations if not abused by feeding them junk ammo.

Well at least we didn't get another screed on the Low Number Springfield and how the 03A3 sights fall off if you breath on them.....yet.


PS
The presence of gas relief holes on later production G43 gas cylinders are the major clue to what caused breakages.
Rushed subcontracted parts are part of but not the entire cause.
The 7.92 ammo used was just a tad too hot for this action.
The rifle might have faired better if the 154 gr WW1 type ammo had been used .
The Garand certainly works best with the 150 gr bullet.

[Scharfschuetze]

How many young men do you know (in the smallest pair of BDU's we could find....he still looked like sad sack though!) get smuggled onto a Army base to shoot a 106 Recoiless rifle?

Larry Gibson

Ha, ha! That was a fun day.

I guess as this thread is about an interesting rifle, this M40A1 106mm Recoiless Rifle that Larry mentions above, is about as interesting as it gets.

[gew98]

ha, ha! That was a fun day.

I guess as this thread is about an interesting rifle, this m40a1 106mm recoiless rifle that larry mentions above, is about as interesting as it gets.

i so want one !.

[Larry Gibson]

Aw, the memories........and we turned that cute young boy into a bad *** Ranger............

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

Cut out the snotty attitude, guys. This is not the place for that.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

Huh? Please PM if you think anything I said was "snotty":confused:

Larry Gibson

[gew98]

Huh? Please PM if you think anything I said was "snotty":confused:

Larry Gibson


I may have had a little snot in my crying about wanting a 106 recoiless !. I never got to play with one of those , but had alot of range time with the smaller shoulder fired recoiless rifles when I did the 12 bravo thing. The 7,62 subcal was a hoot with them as well.

[Scharfschuetze]

Snotty attitude? I'm at a loss. PM me too if there's some faux pax here.

But hey, as this thread was posted to show case an interesting rifle, how about this STG 44 at an FFL shoot in Arizona?

[MtGun44]

Posts 10 and 11 seemed to be picking at each other unnecessarily. Perhaps
I misinterpreted them.

If so, my apologies.

As to the 106 - are they still in the inventory?

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

SF still has a few of them, very few of them.......

Larry Gibson

[Scharfschuetze]

Last operational use of one that I was involved with was in Central America in the 80s and that was with the indigenous military that I was working with .

As Larry points out, SF maintains a pretty good arsenal of obsolete and modern US and foreign weapons for training purposes. For dyed in the wool shooters belonging to an SF unit, it can be Christmas, New Year or your birthday every time you go to the range.

My favorite RR was the M-67 90mm. I was a gunner on one in VN for a short while.

The only recoiless rifle still in use operationally by the US Army is the Swedish Gustav 84mm. It replaced the M-67 90mm and it's only used by the Ranger Regiment as far as I know.

[MtGun44]

It always seemed like an amazing system, so light and portable for a
pretty powerful punch. Is the replacement small rockets like Tow and
AT-4?

Bill

[Scharfschuetze]

Yes. The original unguided rocket for the army was of course the 2.76 "Bazooka" of WWII and the 3.5 inch "Bazooka" of the Korean war. I shot the 3.5 in the early 70s and it was quite a bit of fun. If you think a 45/70 has a high trajectory, try the old 3.5!

It's replacement was the 66mm M72 LAW (Light Anti-Tank Weapon). It was great at busting bunkers, but it had mixed success with PT-76 tanks during the Lang Vei fracas west of Khe Sahn in 1968. The AT-4 is much more capable.

Guided missiles/systems like the TOW (vehicle or helicopter mounted) are pretty expensive to fire as I understand it. The Javelin is the current favorite guided AT munition for US Army ground forces and the Hellfire is what the helicopter gunships use. The M-47 Dragon was in use in the 70s through the 90s, and it had kind of a weird system of propulsion that also steered it to the target. It kind of buzzed as it flew due to its numerous thrust vents and it uncoiled two thin wires for guidance behind it as it flew.

[Larry Gibson]

Unfortunately "obsolete" is not always better. Once you fire any rocket propelled anti-tank weapon from the 2.6" RL to the RPG to the current Javelin you can not call it back and it leaves a big back blast that clearly leaves a "signature" which identifies your position (not good when engaging tanks and other armor). Most all of the new ones you have to stay put and hold the sight on target until impact (also not good if the enemy identifies your position...laying down heavy gunfire into a backblast area is the best defense BTW and perfected by the Israeli's).

With the old obsolete 106 RR, especially when mounted on an M151 or a SPAT if the spotter round does not hit you don't fore the 106 main round and thus no "signature" where you are. If the spotter hits you fire the main gun and yes there is a backblast. However, it is shoot and forget.....you don't have to "fly" it to the target by keeping the sight on the target. On the main gun firing the driver pops the clutch and you are outta there to an alternate position. Enemy can shoot up the backblast area all they want but you aren't there.......Yup, "new" is "better" because it keeps the military industrial complex in business and congressman get more "donations".........Too bad they didn't improve the 106's ammo for a bit more range (it really has quite a bit as was) and keep it in the inventory. SPATs were a lot better anti-tank vehicles than mounting Javelins on Bradleys.......However, those Strykers with that 106 main gun on them are pretty cool and are probably better than the old SPAT as they to can "shoot and scoot".....maybe some "new" is better after all........

Larry Gibson

[jaystuw]

As an infantryman in the mid 1970s my only memory of the m67 RR is how much I hated to lug it along on road march. It seems to me that it was over 4ft long and weighed in at almost 40 pounds. The nice thing about it though is that everyone realized it was burden for any one guy and chipped in to take their turn with it. That was kind of a nice touch considering that morale was low in the line infantry companys back then. Jay

[MtGun44]

Larry,

Reading about the SPAT, all I found was a the M56 Scorpion, which the particular web report says had
a 90mm main gun. No mention of a 106 RR. Was that a SF special build or do I have the wrong vehicle?
Navy brat and I have read everything and talked to family members about Naval air power, but woefully
ignorant about ground weapons beyond infantry rifles and carbines.

You make a good point about the danger of having to stay and guide the missile to target. Does not sound
like a fun time.

Bill

[Artful]

I'm thinking they mean the "MULE" M274 with RR mounted
http://www.mechanicalmulesofamerica.com/sitebuilder/images/M274_106mm_05-508x310.jpg
http://www.mechanicalmulesofamerica.com/sitebuilder/images/M274_106mm_03-343x204.jpg
http://www.mechanicalmulesofamerica.com/sitebuilder/images/M274_106mm_04-343x204.jpg
http://www.mechanicalmulesofamerica.com/sitebuilder/images/M274_106mm_02-343x204.jpg
http://www.mechanicalmulesofamerica.com/sitebuilder/images/M274_106mm_06-343x204.jpg
http://www.mechanicalmulesofamerica.com/sitebuilder/images/M274_106mm_07-343x204.jpg
http://www.mechanicalmulesofamerica.com/sitebuilder/images/M274_106mm_08-343x204.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

The SPAT's we had in RVN had 90s or four 106 RRs. Wasn't in my own BN so may have been "improvised, was in the cav unit in the Brigade. Was on the same Sheridan chassis as the SPAT. That cav unit also had numerous M151s with the 106 RRs on them.

Larry Gibson

[Combat Diver]

Very nice picture of the G41W and young Ranger. God speed to him. 5th and 20th SFGA use the Carl Gustav. Here's one of 20th's in Astan around 09/10 on the back of the quad. Along with a stand alone M203 40mm GL and Mk48 7.62mm lightweight MG (think of a M249 in 7.62 instead of 5.56)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/SF_Polaris_ATV.JPG

The Stryker MGS uses the 105mm cannon with a automatic loader not the 106mm RR. The M72 LAW has been placed back into production as it is lighter to hump up in the mountains of Astan. I always wanted to mount a 106RR on my gun trucks back in 99' instead of the Mk19 but we didn't have any left in 5th then. Do have a soft spot for the M82/M107 Barrett.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/M82_Kuwait_Feb_00.jpg
and mounted on a Tacoma pickup
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/1bg.jpg


CD

[WineMan]

Pretty neat! Did anyone have the opportunity to use/fire the USMC M50 "Ontos" in the RVN? I always wondered what it would look like if all six tubes were ripple fired. Great thread and this is what it is all about: bigger toys.

Happy Holidays

Dave

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Unless things changed the Forest Service has a few they use for avalanche control.
Mike in Peru

[Scharfschuetze]

Missionary,

You are correct! Larry and our SF company had a bunch of fun shooting up WADOT's remaining stocks of 106mm HEP ammo at the YFC when WADOT converted from the M-40A1 to 105mm L-7 tank guns for avalanche work.

Combat Diver,

De Oppresso Liber back at ya comrade!

[MtGun44]

Thanks for all the info, guys. Fun toys unless you have to actually take them
out to the two way range.

God bless all that have been there and have come back in one piece. Prayers for
the young Ranger heading there. I am in awe of such men. I know a few and
have one in the family that has been on eight Spec Ops deployments, and it scares
me every time he deploys. Only part is he is never able to tell any stories.

Bill

[oscarflytyer]

First, that poor kid never had a chance! Shame on the two of you to corrupt him like that!!!

And all the old stuff we used to get to see and play with. Miss those days. The Mule is cool, and man, NEVER forget being on the Sheridan 151 range! I swear you could crawl under that thing from one side to the other while it was in the air during recoil! I was dang glad I never actually fired one. I can't imagine the beating the gunner and crew took!

[Larry Gibson]

First, that poor kid never had a chance! Shame on the two of you to corrupt him like that!!!

And all the old stuff we used to get to see and play with. Miss those days. The Mule is cool, and man, NEVER forget being on the Sheridan 151 range! I swear you could crawl under that thing from one side to the other while it was in the air during recoil! I was dang glad I never actually fired one. I can't imagine the beating the gunner and crew took!

Well, I suppose we could be ashamed of ourselves but we're not......very proud of that young man.

Many years back I did a few years in 3/116th AC and managed to fire 3 main gun rounds (155s) as the TC from an M151 Sheridan. We always took a pillow to protect us in the turret as a TC....sort of...... Turned the tank over to a young hard charging Sgt and climbed back into a M151 gun jeep......(yes, the tank and the jeep had the same nomenclature). I did TC an M60 tank a few times for fun though.......here's me touching one off in the main gun (105) at night........

Larry Gibson

89506

[Larry Gibson]

I kind of liked the M82 also, even in recoil.......

Larry Gibson

89507

[gew98]

A dear late friend of mine spent 70 through 91 in the army and worked with sheridans for a couple years in an airborne capacity. He thought them death traps compared to M60 and M1 series armor. He hated shooting the "Irish" missle in them...innacurate as all hell and delicate to load and not sweat !. He reminisced to me more than once on the recoil of that little aluminum tank . I did get to see them running as vismods in the 80's and early 90's at Ft Irwin on the rotations I did there.