357 Handi Rifle

[timspawn]

I read a lot of reviews while waiting for my rifle to get here. It seemed that heavy bullets were the best choice. My rifle went the other direction. It loves this 125 grain boolit in a 38 case with 4.5 grains of 231.

87791

[Ben]

I sold mine, I couldn't reach the rifling with ANY weight of cast bullet.
I like to seat my cast bullet lightly into the rifling.......Impossible with the one that I owned.

Mine NEVER shot anything like yours.
Count yourself very lucky, don't sell it.

Ben

[badbob454]

I sold mine, I couldn't reach the rifling with ANY weight of cast bullet.
I like to seat my cast bullet lightly into the rifling.......Impossible with the one that I owned.

Mine NEVER shot anything like yours.
Count yourself very lucky, don't sell it..........

.
Benyou could have made a 357 maximun out of it ...but that is another cost entirely, possibly too much , wish i had a 357 barrel for mine , want to sell my ruger and i have lots of reloaded ammo .... oh well just rambling on

[timspawn]

I have some Max brass coming. I took a piece of mag brass and seated a 180 grain boolit just enough to hold it. It chambered and the action closed without the boolit touching the lands. I "may" be able to shoot Max without a rechamber...maybe....we shall see.

[jmort]

From I seen on Graybeards's, you can use "Max" brass if you trim it a little bit. You can get max level loads in a standard chamber. Also, info on Graybeard's indicates that .38/.357 with light bullets shoot just fine. I need a .357 barrel for mine.

[Ben]

you could have made a 357 maximun out of it ...but that is another cost entirely, possibly too much , wish i had a 357 barrel for mine , want to sell my ruger and i have lots of reloaded ammo .... oh well just rambling on

Mine had the " cast iron frame ", I thought about your idea , but the company advised against the 357 Max. rechamber job since it was on the shotgun cast frame. It would take an SB-2 frame ( all steel frame ) to handle the pressures.

I realize that if I owned it and shot it with mild to mid range 357 Max. loads that would have probably been safe. At my death, when the rifle fell into someone else's hands and they shot full powder Max loads..........well you know the rest.

[Ben]

I have some Max brass coming. I took a piece of mag brass and seated a 180 grain boolit just enough to hold it. It chambered and the action closed without the boolit touching the lands. I "may" be able to shoot Max without a rechamber...maybe....we shall see.

As to your idea of possibly using Max brass :

I loaded a 357 MAX case with a .358" dia. cast bullet and tried it in my H & R 357 Mag. single shot rifle.

The outside diameter of the loaded round ( measured at the mouth of the case ) would not allow the action to close.

I continued trimming the case back until the action would close. The rifle really did not seem to shoot any better with these " modified and shortened Max cases " not counting all that extra trouble. As you shorten a Max case, it will have thicker walls , so pay attention to that and be certain you have enough clearance to release the bullet and not create pressure problems.

I may have quit too early, but I decided to leave my rifle " as is " and sell it at the gun show . Then go home and " lick my wounds."

[badbob454]

Mine had the " cast iron frame ", I thought about your idea , but the company advised against the 357 Max. rechamber job since it was on the shotgun cast frame. It would take an SB-2 frame ( all steel frame ) to handle the pressures.

I realize that if I owned it and shot it with mild to mid range 357 Max. loads that would have probably been safe. At my death, when the rifle fell into someone else's hands and they shot full powder Max loads..........well you know the rest.
would the 357 maximum really kick harder than a 12 guage .... i would think the 12 guage frame would be safe in my thinking , but go with the experts best to error on the safe side

[leadman]

Before there were SB1 and SB2 frames many H&Rs were rechambered to some pretty stout cartridges. I saw one that was chambered in 348 Win. I also had an iron frame Shikari that Gary Reeder in Flagstaff rechambered from 44 mag to 445 Supermag. Never had any issues with loads in it. He even offered to rechamber it to 444 Marlin.
Alot of the iron framed H&Rs were factory chambered in 30-30 which is about the same as a Max, or more. Not saying one could or should go crazy and do a 30-06 or something but I do not think a Max would hurt an SB1 with sane loads.
I have looked at a couple of the newer H&R/NEFs in 357 and the length on the chambers do seem to vary. Since it is a single shot seat the boolit long, if need be use a longer boolit also.

[Whiterabbit]

I do a 357 max with not sane loads on an SB1. It can lock up the action from primer flow into the firing pin hole. Just too big. Pull hammer and fire again on an already fired primer. That unlocks the action, and the gun will open and extract just fine after that. I WOULD buy an SB2 if it were easy, but its not so easy here. That's fine. the sb1 handles it. Just a too-big firing pin.

[curator]

I found the LBT 358-180 LFN bullet to work fine in my .357 Handi if I seated it to engrave on the rifling leade when I closed the action. Shorter bullets won;t do that. Also Lyman's 215 grain .358 GC made for the Maximum works great. The original chambering on these rifles is not the best but a good handloader can overcome the problem with the right choice of components. SB-2 receivers are listed 4 sale all the time on Greybeard outdoors forum.

[357maximum]

would the 357 maximum really kick harder than a 12 guage .... i would think the 12 guage frame would be safe in my thinking , but go with the experts best to error on the safe side


It's not about "KICK" it about pressure. 12gauge=12,00 psi or so +or -, 357Max can run 50-60,000 psi depending on the load. The thing that saves alot of 357Max rechambered guns is that the case head is small and there is alot of steel around the case....plus the bolt thrust is minimized due to that small case head. That being said, there is still 50,000+ PSI in that gun when you trip the trigger.

H&R made alot of 357Max on the old frames, but then they started in with the new frames and came up with the warning to not do it and also a refusal to do it on the old frames with the barrel program. Maybe just maybe they had to pay out some money to someone who's gun blew up(conjecture), or maybe the lawyers just got their heads in the mix (most likely).....you are the one standing there holding the thing when the gun is fired....you decide.

I run my 357MAX 15 inch custom Encore quite warm (180gr@2150-2200fps), but then again the Encore is also factory made in MAG cartridges.....I KNOW I can ruin max brass (enlarge the primer pocket) in my Encore before anything else will give.

[FergusonTO35]

About the new .357 Magnum SB1 barrels: I see that for some strange reason they come with a scope rail and no sights. Does the barrel have any sight mounting holes on it at all? I love the Williams WGRS on my Huntsman and would buy a .357 barrel for my SB1 if the factory sights could be screwed on no problem. Don't know why H&R considers the .357 to be a scope only proposition, I guess they think you'll be whacking prairie dogs at 400 yards with it!

[timspawn]

There are no holes for open sights.

[timspawn]

As to your idea of possibly using Max brass :

I loaded a 357 MAX case with a .358" dia. cast bullet and tried it in my H & R 357 Mag. single shot rifle.

The outside diameter of the loaded round ( measured at the mouth of the case ) would not allow the action to close.

I continued trimming the case back until the action would close. The rifle really did not seem to shoot any better with these " modified and shortened Max cases " not counting all that extra trouble. As you shorten a Max case, it will have thicker walls , so pay attention to that and be certain you have enough clearance to release the bullet and not create pressure problems.

I may have quit too early, but I decided to leave my rifle " as is " and sell it at the gun show . Then go home and " lick my wounds."

Considering the price of max brass I'm not going to cut it down. I will have it rechambered or just leave it alone and sell the max brass. It shoots so darn good as is I hate to mess with it.

[paul h]

I have some Max brass coming. I took a piece of mag brass and seated a 180 grain boolit just enough to hold it. It chambered and the action closed without the boolit touching the lands. I "may" be able to shoot Max without a rechamber...maybe....we shall see.


Sounds like a t/c contender 357 mag barrel I once had. I literally loaded a 200 gr wfn with just the gas check seated in the case, and couldn't touch the rifling!

A 357 max re-chamber would be worth it. Another option for an in between case length is the 360 Dan Wesson, it's a 1.40" long case.

[jmort]

"Another option for an in between case length is the 360 Dan Wesson, it's a 1.40" long case."

That works for the Handi Rifles as well. If you have the brass, it makes sense.

[Ben]

you are the one standing there holding the thing when the gun is fired....you decide.

My old cast iron frame H & R single shot 357 Mag. isn't going to harm me in anyway, it sold at the Gun Show 3 months ago.................
______________________________

I turned right around and bought this.
I'm MILES AHEAD ! ! Looks like I'm permanently out of the H & R 357 single shot business.

I bought a stainless , Rossi 92 , 38 / 357 Mag.

This is a full magazine tube on the target below, shot as fast as I could work the lever and line up the sights.

While I realize that this won't win anything at Camp Perry, it will certainly be deadly medicine for the " Bad Guys " out there !

The load was :

38 Spec. case
Accurate 135 gr. cast plain base ( Sized 358 " )
4.0 grs. Promo
CCI Small Pistol Primer

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/download-4.jpg

The contour on these bullets allows some super smooth 100% flawless feeding through the 92' . The " flat " on the end of the nose is also good for safety in the tubular magazine :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/006-40-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/002-63.jpg

Oh, did I say .... " I really do like my rifle ! ! "

[jmort]

"I see that for some strange reason they come with a scope rail and no sights."

That is some crazy-a$$ "thinking." I guess a red dot or shotgun scope would be in order.

[stana]

timspawn great group, I wouldn't be to quick to dink with that rifle. I also just bought a 357 handy, one with the SB1 frame. That 38 had a lot of freebore to reach the rifling, makes me think I've been loading to long (COL) trying to get as close to the rifling as possible. My results have been inconsistent. I'm going your route tomorrow. I have thousands of 38 and 357 brass and that 's why I bought the handy. I had a marlin and it was a disappointment with cast. I had a rossi 92 and it shot great, but came new from the factory with a head space problem, so it's gone. If I learn anything I'll let you know.

[hendere]

Great job Timspawn. I need to try that in mine. I picked up a new one on Gunbroker a while back with an 18-3/4" barrel and open sights. This one isn't marked with anything special, but I think Talo or someone like that sold ones in similar configuration at one point also. I originally got caught up and excited with all the online stuff about making it into a Max bench rest rifle, but in the end it suits my purposes with most anything I feed it. And with the shorter barrel and peep sight I added its, well, just plain Handi. :D

[Ben]

By the way, does anyone know why H & R cut such a long amount of free bore in their barrels ? It certainly wasn't to enhance accuracy. That was the main reason I sold mine.

[hendere]

I'm talking above my pay grade here, but my understanding is that they cut them to SAAMI specs and that is for revolvers.

[Bullshop Junior]

would the 357 maximum really kick harder than a 12 guage .... i would think the 12 guage frame would be safe in my thinking , but go with the experts best to error on the safe side

Its not the recoil issue. Its the pressure issue. Shotguns are very low pressure.

[jmort]

"...my understanding is that they cut them to SAAMI specs."

That is my understanding as well per info at Graybeards. Since they shoot well with .38 special/"shot bullets, not sure why it is a "problem."

[Jeff H]

My .357 Handi gripes may be completely irrelevant, but here goes...

I have been on a quest for one of the contoured barreled .357 Mags for several years now and have gone through a number of surrogate guns which just have not quite fit the application, to include a Rossi 92, which a great little gun but not what I want, and a 300 BLK, which is exactly the gun I want (I can add iron sights) but not the cartridge I want. Long story.

I had a fairly recent production .357 Mag, rechambered by a previous owner to .357 Max., and it shot mild .38s, mid-range .357 Mags and .357 Max. (all cast) very well.

The generous freebore supposedly does stem from the SAMMI spec, which I think is inappropriate in a rifle. As I understand, TC does the same thing. Some time in the GBO Handi FAQs and Mike Bellm's site will give the whole (and probably more accurate) story.

My beef with the .357 barrel I had was the weight. In my opinion, H&R negates two of the main advantages of a single-shot pistol-cartridge carbine by omitting the open sights (or at least the ability to add them easily) and the excessive weight of the barrels. Length is too long but can be corrected, but they are just too fat. The base model .357 comes from the factory weighing SEVEN POUNDS, which is two pounds more than I would want.

Many report excellent accuracy using .38s and .357 Mags in their Max barrels, and that is how mine was, but I do occasionally read about one that won't shoot because of the long freebore. It makes sense to me that they would NOT shoot well, but mine DID.

If I could get the AAC 300 BLK Handi format chambered for .357, I'd be all over it.

[timspawn]

My .357 Handi gripes may be completely irrelevant, but here goes...

I have been on a quest for one of the contoured barreled .357 Mags for several years now and have gone through a number of surrogate guns which just have not quite fit the application, to include a Rossi 92, which a great little gun but not what I want, and a 300 BLK, which is exactly the gun I want (I can add iron sights) but not the cartridge I want. Long story.

I had a fairly recent production .357 Mag, rechambered by a previous owner to .357 Max., and it shot mild .38s, mid-range .357 Mags and .357 Max. (all cast) very well.

The generous freebore supposedly does stem from the SAMMI spec, which I think is inappropriate in a rifle. As I understand, TC does the same thing. Some time in the GBO Handi FAQs and Mike Bellm's site will give the whole (and probably more accurate) story.

My beef with the .357 barrel I had was the weight. In my opinion, H&R negates two of the main advantages of a single-shot pistol-cartridge carbine by omitting the open sights (or at least the ability to add them easily) and the excessive weight of the barrels. Length is too long but can be corrected, but they are just too fat. The base model .357 comes from the factory weighing SEVEN POUNDS, which is two pounds more than I would want.

Many report excellent accuracy using .38s and .357 Mags in their Max barrels, and that is how mine was, but I do occasionally read about one that won't shoot because of the long freebore. It makes sense to me that they would NOT shoot well, but mine DID.

If I could get the AAC 300 BLK Handi format chambered for .357, I'd be all over it.

I have two of the 300 Blk versions. They are hard to hold still on the bench because they are so small and light.

[Jeff H]

I have two of the 300 Blk versions. They are hard to hold still on the bench because they are so small and light.

I can't disagree with that, and they are not as easy to shoot well offhand either. Doing load development in the 300 BLK Handi, I know it has potential but I manage to wobble around and pull a shot, knowing full well it was me, ruining an otherwise sub-half inch (at fifty yards) group.

That size/weight rifle in a pistol cartridge is not something I would be regularly shooting off a bench anyway myself. Short, light, portable and able to shoot reasonably well (and cheaply) at about fifty yards and I would be happy. I have stuff that shoots very well out to 300 yards (the limit of my personal experience with them) but I am looking for something to fill another slot in a versatile but minimal battery.

[Bullshop Junior]

What is the 300 BKL?

And anyone complaining about their handy barrels can send them to me for proper disposal

[jmort]

300 ACC Blackout

[Jeff H]

What is the 300 BKL?

And anyone complaining about their handy barrels can send them to me for proper disposal

Would that offer stand if I sent you one so you could just dispose of the extra steel I don't need on one? I'll include return postage.;)

[Bullshop Junior]

Would that offer stand if I sent you one so you could just dispose of the extra steel I don't need on one? I'll include return postage.;)

Ill see if my FIL is open to letting me turn a barrel on his lathe

[timspawn]

I also found out that my Handi in 300 Blk shoots 190 SMK's and 115 boolits very close to each other.

[Bullshop Junior]

Was the 300 blk a factory chambering? That looks pretty cool....

[timspawn]

Was the 300 blk a factory chambering? That looks pretty cool....

Yes it is.

[Jeff H]

Was the 300 blk a factory chambering? That looks pretty cool....

http://www.gunblast.com/AAC-SS300.htm

Here's a good review with good pics.
Not sure how many or how long they'll be making them, but the price isn't bad either. Now, I know this might sound odd to say but, the fit and finish, bore and chamber are all much nicer than the few current era Handis I have seen.

timspawn,
The LEE 309-170s and 309-113s are also shooting very closely to each other in mine - at fifty yards.

A .314" lead ball rolled in JPW and pushed through a .309" sizer ahead of 1.2 grains of W231 shoots almost to the same point at ten yards as the other two at fifty.

Compared to the .357, I can shoot the same weight range of bullets but with better sectional density/ballistic coefficients. I doubt that will mean anything at the velocities I will use or the distances I plan on shooting - just an observation.

[timspawn]

Mine also likes Nosler 125 ballistic tips.

[Jeff H]

Mine also likes Nosler 125 ballistic tips.

I can't report on any jacketed performance in mine since the only bullets that fit my budget right now are the "free" ones.:cbpour:

[dtknowles]

I have an older H&R Topper frame that I use with a new 30-30 SB2 barrel. The barrel came with iron sights and is nicely light and tapered. I moved the rear sight back to the more rear scope mount holes and replaced the notch with a peep. I like the way it carries and handles, light, quick and handy. It has QD sling swivel lugs so when I shoot it off the bench I just put one of those bipods on it and skip the sandbags. Now that I have a few loads for it worked out I don't shoot it off the bench much. If it was a .357 I would be just as happy (I think, I have two .357 revolvers so that would be nice, one is a MAX). My favorite thing to do with this gun at the range is to take the gun cold and put a cast bullet reload in the chamber, drop to sitting position, cock the hammer, trip the trigger and ring the 100 yard gong with the first round then stand and ring the gong with the second round. The first shot is almost a given and I am around 50% on the second. This gun is a settled item, needs no more work, just ready to do its job.

Tim

[uscra112]

If they using a SAAMI .38 reamer, is it the PISTOL reamer? Reaming a rifle like a revolver cylinder would indeed leave you a mile of freebore. They might just have done that. I think that at one point Thompson/Center did.

When I had Dave Manson grind me a .357 Max reamer, we noticed that the SAAMI drawing shows a .346 pilot! Loose as a goose in a .350-bore rifle barrel. Needless to say my reamer has the proper pilot. But that may explain why so many Thompson/Center "Max" barrels turn up chambered off-center.

[stana]

Timspawn
I posted earlier that I had just bought a 357 handi and my results had been inconsistent, I'd been loading for a long COL to get closer to the rifling. I shot 7 rounds today 158 swc pb and 11 g of 2400 (starting load in the manual). I used a medium crimp in the crimping grove. The last five shots went into about 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards. The first 2 shots out of a clean barrel made the group about 2 1/2 inches. I looked through the barrel several times while shooting the group and noted quite a bit of unburned powder still in the barrel. I'm ready for tomorrow with a heavier powder charge and a heavier crimp.

[timspawn]

I am using the Lee Factory Crimp die. I am also getting unburned powder left in the barrel.

[Lefty Red]

You might have to go to a roll crimp die.

[Old Dawg]

The SAAMI .357 Maximum standards were totally screwed up. I believe the standards are set by the original 'sponsor' of the cartridge. Go to www.bellmtcs.com for a good explanation of the problem. There is a lot of discussion Re the 357 Maximum on the Graybeards forum. Worth reading the experiences of people who have rechambered their .357 Magnum H&R to .357 Maximum using a properly rifle configured reamer. General consensus is that they continue to shoot .357 Magnum very well despite COL differences.

The problem with the SB1 frame is not the pressure. Strength is based on pressure (psi) times area of the chamber (square inches). The SB1 is plenty strong for any SAAMI load. The problem is the oversized firing pin hole. I have an old (pre H&R 1871) gun that was remaindered when the original H&R went bankrupt. It is factory chambered in .357 Maximum. Works fine.

[Four-Sixty]

I too have the .357 Handi, bought new this year.

I noticed the chamber is so generous, a .358 sized boolit can drop into a fired case. I tried to fire a .356 TL boolit, unsized, and the load with 2400 power blew out the case, behind the case and into the action and barrel. The fitting of the barrel to the frame is very tight though.

My bore has lots of 'chatter' marks from when they cut the rifling. Also, there is a tight spot around where they put the barrel lug. So far, I've only been able to get it to shoot with HS-6 loads. I wonder if polishing the bore will help?

Where H&R really fell flat, in my opion, is not putting rifle sights on it... and putting a long, heavy barrel on it with a plastic stock. This gun is so barrel heavy, it would not be any fun to take afield. I think it is a little awkward to shoot from the bench to!

My friend said cut down the barrel to the legal minimum. I think he had some good advice there.

I think I would enjoy shooting the Ruger M77/357, or a Rossi in .357 more. Heck, I know I would!

I'm going to commit to this baby though, and make her work. After the sister and brother in law visit this Christmas, this thing is going to the gunsmith for some improvements.

[Ben]

Four-Sixty

If your bore is that rough, I'd say it needs to go back to H & R.

The only way these companies are going to stop this kind of thing is for them to have to write checks to address the problem(s). That just might get them to tighten up their quality control ?

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

For those interested, the first half of the linked page is pimping out one in tacktikool mode, (ick)
but the 2nd half of the page has some info on loading various bullets in magnum brass, approaching 357 Max performance
right down to same powder capacity by seating the bullet out.
Looks interesting.
I dont have 357 barrel yet, but I've been wondering about doing what this fellow did with seating out the boolits and using a
heavy lead projectile like for a 358 Win or Whelen boolit


http://www.metalsmithpro.com/357MagnumRifle.htm

[nanuk]

I have two 357maggies

one's chamber is noticably longer than the other. I didn't measure, just dropped a Max brass in....

I'm going to Maxi the shorter chamber to get a proper rifle styly throat/leade

the other will probably get rechambered into something like a 35/30-30 or 35/303, 358Win/356Win (if I can find a rim cutter) or something totally different.

[CPL Lou]

Maybe a 358 JDJ reamer would be just the ticket ?

CPL Lou

[35 shooter]

I have two 357maggies

one's chamber is noticably longer than the other. I didn't measure, just dropped a Max brass in....

I'm going to Maxi the shorter chamber to get a proper rifle styly throat/leade

the other will probably get rechambered into something like a 35/30-30 or 35/303, 358Win/356Win (if I can find a rim cutter) or something totally different.

nanuk that 356 /.358 combo is exactly what i've been thinking about as another addition to my Encore. One set of dies 2 different cartridges 1 rimmed 1 rimless in the same bbl. Thinking about letting Bellm make one up for me....neat setup.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I have some Max brass coming. I took a piece of mag brass and seated a 180 grain boolit just enough to hold it. It chambered and the action closed without the boolit touching the lands. I "may" be able to shoot Max without a rechamber...maybe....we shall see.

Where did you find brass? I've been looking for months...

[timspawn]

Where did you find brass? I've been looking for months...

Here. I placed a want to buy ad. I had no responses for several days then all of a sudden two members offered me some.

[Groo]

Groo here
1 Make sure your bullet fits.
2 use mag primers with slower powder
3 use a heavy crimp [ with the long bullet jump you need the powder to get going well before the bullet moves
4 Is the unburned powder you see yellow or black, if black then it is just what is left-if yellow the fire is going out and you need more neck tension/crimp.

[timspawn]

Groo here
1 Make sure your bullet fits.
2 use mag primers with slower powder
3 use a heavy crimp [ with the long bullet jump you need the powder to get going well before the bullet moves
4 Is the unburned powder you see yellow or black, if black then it is just what is left-if yellow the fire is going out and you need more neck tension/crimp.

As for me, my unburned powder is black.

[NVScouter]

I'm thinkning after Christmas making either another 357 barrel or new 357 Handi in 357 Herrett...I love my pistol and an 18-20" version should be sweet!


Maybe a 358 JDJ reamer would be just the ticket ?

CPL Lou

[timspawn]

I'm not much of a pistol shot but I had a TC in 357 Herett that I could shoot lights out!

[nanuk]

Maybe a 358 JDJ reamer would be just the ticket ?

CPL Lou

thought about that, but am always concerned with brass... but I don't know why, as I don't shoot enough anymore to wear any out.

I do have a 358Win reamer....

[FergusonTO35]

Four sixty, I agree totally. One of the endearing traits of this type of rifle is that it is usually slim light weight, and free of bulky sighting equipment. In the SB2 .357 H&R managed to avoid all three!