45-75?

[Guy La Pourque]

I am harassing another shooter who had the unmitigated gall to post a good deal on one of those Uberti repros in 45-75. (He has a decent gun with brass and dies and **** for $1600 Canukistani....).

Fellers, I am thinking I want to shoot that gun with cast bullets and black powder. Have any of you guys done that? What about cleaning the big lever guns afterward? I have no qualms about using the old lady's dishwasher or the garden hose to clean my muzzleloader...but how do you clean a black powder repeater? Is it worthwhile to put a tang sight on these guns? What is the recoil like on these guns? What is the best way to get started?

Your two cents is sincerely appreciated.

[mongoosesnipe]

Recoil I just physics and a factor of wieght of bullet,powder, and gun and velocity of bullet, so to be approximately about the same as a 45-70....

As for clean up, as long as your cases make a good seal you shouldn't have much in the way of bp residue in the action so swab the barrel with proper bp solvent or soapy water and clean like a normal gun then clean out cleaner with and dry, then coat the bore with oil to protect obviously the dishwasher is out

Stay away from Pyrodex its hard to ignite and the residue is rather corrosive, tripple seven is a better in regards to performance, corrosion and ignition but if it is available to you go with real black powder goex is good but the Swiss is the best and worth the extra couple bucks a pound in my opinion is cleaner and give performance equal to tripple 7

[missionary5155]

Greetings
When I was in the market for another 1876 (already have a 45-60) it was a tough decision between a caliber .45-75 and the .50-95. The 45-75 gives a real power boost over the 45-60. But as I have a 1886 in 45-70 I went to the 50-95.
I shoot 3F in my 45-60, 45-70's and 50-95. The 50-95 case is nearer to the 45-75 and has no difficulty sealing the case mouth. I get no blowback anywhere and the action is clean. 3F also duplicates the factory velocity.
Mike in Peru

[winchester85]

unless it comes with a bunch of extras, that price seems high(not sure what the exchange rate is?). i had a chaparral 1876 in 45-75 but the chamber was shaped like a coke bottle, thin in the middle and bigger up front, i got rid of it and replaced it with a uberti 1876. i think i paid like $1000 with 100 rounds of ammo from buffalo arms company, and a replacement rear sight worth $100 itself. it is a fine looking rifle and it shoots 325gr cast very well. i think i had groups around 2" with the original sights at 100 yards. i load the round pretty mild as the '76 action is not known for strength. i load smokeless, and run the 325gr about 1300 fps. i know i could get more, but the gun is just a big pop-gun anyway, and the accuracy is pretty good. i really like mine for ringing steel at a couple hundred yards, even thought about taking a cow elk with it, but it is SO perdy.

[Guy La Pourque]

So how does reloading with black powder work, fellas? I have heard that you stuff the case and voodoo about paper patching and so forth.

Up here in Canada these guns seem to retail around 1800~1900 bucks new. The fella is throwing in 100 new brass, dies and some other stuff.

[mongoosesnipe]

reloading black powder is pretty simple 45-75 means 45 cal 75 grains of black powder with the standard bullet for the cartridge which was 350gr based on what i have found so 350gr bullet on top of 75 gr of powder slightly compressed it does not need to be compressed but you can not have any air gap in bp cartridges if using reduced load you will need to use wads or filler to keep proper load density, bp lube should be of natural origins as will either buy spg or make your own with bees wax there are many recipies out there if your serious go read up at bpcr.net there is oddles of info there as well as info to be found on this site

[fouronesix]

If it's 45-75 headstamped, the brass alone is $1-2 apiece. Throw in the other stuff for $50? and subtract from total price to give an idea of base price of rifle. If they are going for 1800-1900 Can Dol new where you're at, I think it very reasonable if the rifle is in good mechanical shape and the bore is good.

I have 3 in 45-75 and it is a fine cartridge, very straight forward and cast bullet friendly. If you've never shot or had a Win 73 or 76 before they are unique and very nice to shoot. Most of the Uberti stuff I've seen is a step above some of the other Italian and South American repros.

[fouronesix]

So how does reloading with black powder work, fellas? I have heard that you stuff the case and voodoo about paper patching and so forth.


Pretty straight forward with blackpowder cartridge. Slug your bore to determine best diameter bullet and have a base line to work with in the future for bullet sizing. The bullet diameter can be bore diameter up to about .002" larger than groove diameter- depending on style of bullet. I'd just start with a fairly soft plain base bullet of about 20:1 to 40:1 alloy lubed with soft BP type lube. Get some FF blackpowder. Get or cast some appropriate 300-350 gr bullets. Fill case with BP to just above junction of shoulder and neck. Insert a fiber or cork wad, compress lightly, seat bullet and apply light crimp.

You'll have to juggle the stack height of all the components so there is no air space, the powder is slightly compressed and the bullet, when seated on top of the wad, is at the right location so the case mouth can be LIGHTLY crimped into the crimp groove. That requires the correct bullet design so when crimped it will chamber easily. The RCBS 45-325-FN-U is a good bullet for the 45-75 in the M1876.

[badguybuster]

50-90?? Good god almighty. That sounds fun

[fouronesix]

Guy La Pourque,
A resource that would really help if you decide to get that 1876 is the book: Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West by Mike Venturino. I highly recommend it for the type info you are looking and will need.

[Guy La Pourque]

Thank you boys! Looks like my deal is a go; and if the hunting gods are willing I will be stinking out the gun range soon - figuratively AND literally!

Wish me luck!

PS - Where does a guy get wads from?

[fouronesix]

A fairly hard, dense wad (dense felt, cork, fiber, hard cardboard, gasket material, various plastics, etc.) is almost always a plus for better results when loading plain base bullets over blackpowder. You can either get a .45 punch and make your own out of bulk material or buy wads already punched out. Several sources for punches and wads. Buffalo Arms caters to BPCR shooters so will have what you need. http://www.buffaloarms.com/vegetable_fiber_wads_pr-4114.aspx?CAT=4114

One thing when loading is to fill the case enough up into the neck that when you add the wad and compress the load before seating the bullet... the wad isn't pushed down into the case body (something to consider with a bottleneck cart like the 45-75). It won't cause any dangerous situation but it will destroy the purpose of the wad that helps seal the bore and protect the bullet as it is pushed down the bore by the high pressure burning charge.

Seriously consider getting the Mike Venturino book and good luck!

[Guy La Pourque]

Hi, 0416!!!

I can reload smokeless cartridges with no problems. I am confused with black powder though. I assume with the 45-75 that I would measure out 75 grains by volume and simply dump it in and seat the bullet like any other? I have seen the black powder geeks paper patching and using 'drop tubes' and other quackery to work their magic...is any of that required with the lever guns?

I always liked Mike Venturino. I will eventually grab his book. Can you recommend a source for smokeless loading data too? I don't need to dump buffalo or anything...I am looking for a good target load to play with at the range.

[fouronesix]

The exact weight of blackpowder is not critical- it is the stack height (volume). All you need to do is pour enough BP in the case to fill it to a level in the neck so that when the wad is added and the whole column compressed a little, the wad isn't seated into the case body. Whatever amount of BP plus wad plus a little compression is needed so that when the bullet is seated on top of the wad, it is at the correct place to be lightly crimped in.

Just juggle the amount of powder needed by trial and error until the whole round is assembled and the bullet can be seated on top of the wad and lightly crimped in the right place. Dedicate a dummy round to do the trial and error until all that is sorted out. Once that amount of powder is determined, along with the amount of compression (maybe 1/8" to 1/4" compression), weigh that amount of powder and record along with the amount of compression and all components in a data log. Then load 10 of those rounds and go shoot. From then on you can fine tune the various parts of the reload for best results/accuracy. If you get for example, the RCBS 300 FP gas checked bullet instead of the plain base bullet, then of course you won't need to use a fiber wad.

As far as smokeless??? Yes it can be done within very narrow and strict guidelines. While the modern Uberti 76 is likely stronger than an original Winchester 76, the action is still limited and much weaker than the M1886. Probably best to start with tried and true BP loads first, then at user risk and discretion, try the less forgiving path.

Loading a blackpowder cartridge sounds harder than it really is. Once you load a few, shoot a few and see how it works, they are actually pretty simple and straight forward. The only difference between loading a BP cartridge for a single shot like a Sharps and for a lever is the length of the loaded round and the bullet style. The lever action is usually much more limited to a fairly narrow range of lengths and bullet sizes/styles that will feed and chamber properly. Plus, because of the tube magazine, flat nose bullets need to be used and the bullets need at least a light crimp. Single shot bullets can be of any shape that will fit the chamber/throat and need not be crimped.

The only added thing to pay attention to is cleaning the bore and that has been covered in the thread. AND, the brass should be cleaned after shooting. Deprime, put into warm soapy water, clean with a soft bristle bottle brush, rinse and let dry. BP fouling will attack brass over time.

[Guy La Pourque]

That all makes sense, 416 - thank you! In my neck of the woods the BPCR crowd is very small. They are rarely seen at my range. I will be flying solo right off the bat and your help is appreciated more than you know. I suppose I am just pleased as punch about using black powder - this smokeless stuff is merely a passing fad in my scholarly opinion! :)

Can you set me straight on some other stuff? Example - I have heard that cast boolits are limited in application. I have heard it said that cast boolits should not be pushed beyond 1000 FPS without gas checks. Is this true? Also, I love the classical single shot BPCR guns they use and the precision long range iron sights on the tang - are these sights practical for the big lever gun? While I keep my shots on game close - I will shoot at a target at any range provided it is safe to shoot at. All I need is enough power to ring the gong and see it move when it gets hit.

I have also seen the BP guys use blow tubes - what is that all about? Will I need one? How often will I need to mop the bore at the range? All my casting and black powder shooting to date has involved muzzle loaders. These new fangled suppository guns are a little intimidating for a guy just starting out...

[fouronesix]

Understood. You'll just have to shoot and see how it acts. The full charge of about 70 gr +/- of BP will push the 300-350 gr bullet to 1200-1300 fps more or less. How often you have to swab/clean depends on many things?? I'd just shoot and cycle the rounds as per normal and swab when the chambering gets balky. A fiber wad under a plain base bullet or the gas check version should help prevent most leading.

Use a soft enough alloy so the bullet will obturate and help seal the bore. That's the reason for using an alloy like 20:1 to 40:1. The blow tube is designed to add moisture to the fouling mostly to help accuracy and is primarily a tool for single shot target shooting. Really, the lever gun ammo is not normally paper patched, but at some time in the future you can experiment with it. But you'll have to use a different, smaller diameter bullet to accommodate the patch thickness.

There is very little published smokeless data for the 45-75. I know that 5744 is one powder that can be used and Barne's book Cartridges of the World lists 24 gr of 4198 under a 350 gr cast bullet at 1380 fps. And the Lyman 49th has some 45-75 data. If you do that, be aware it's much trickier to keep the pressure manageable (BP type pressure curve) when using smokeless even though the velocities "seem" ok.

To save myself trouble, I standardized my bullet selection for the 45-75 to the RCBS 300 FN gas check of a fairly soft alloy of about BHN 9-10 sized to .458 and lubed with a soft BP lube or something like SPG. As a bonus, this same bullet is my favorite in original Win M1886 45-70s.

Here's a loaded 45-75 round next to the RCBS 300 FN GC. This bullet in my alloy is 324 gr. Note the light crimp into the crimp groove. Cartridge OAL is 2.307". This round cycles fine in all my 76s.

[Guy La Pourque]

My gun showed up yesterday, 416! I have about 100 brass from a company called Jamison. I had never heard of them before. I also have the RCBS dies and I am just itchin' to shoot!

To fast track things...the gun store does have some lead bullets, I think the diameter on those is .459. I also have some lubed fibre wads for my .44 percussion pistol downstairs...would that work? Just to get started?

For the long term I will start with the mold above that you recommended. I have watched the bullet casting video tutorials on this site and that all looks straight forward - I have stocks of pure lead for my muzzle loaders though and will have to alloy it. Can you tell me how to proceed with that?

I notice Lee has bullet sizers out...do you know if they are adjustable? The tutorial I watched was for pistols and he used alox as a lube...with muzzle loaders and lubes it seems you can use whatever is in the kitchen sink...I will order up some SPG from Buffalo.

This doesn't seem like it will be overly expensive...so far

[fouronesix]

Now to get started :)
Jamison (another company now owns their machines I think) is very good brass. It's primarily what I use along with the much more expensive but available Bertram. Jamison may be the better brass.

The .459 bullets will likely work as long as they'll chamber easily. Your pure lead will also work but may be better with a little tin added. If you have some lead/tin solder or some plain tin or even 2-3 wheel weights, just add a little to the melt. If nothing else it will help casting. Those RCBS mold cast bullets with the soft alloy may not need much sizing but the Lee Push Through sizer will help seat the gas checks. The Lee sizers work very well but are a set diameter. You just put the gas check on the bullet base, place bullet on ram (that's mounted in the shell holder slot of the press) and push through. The sizer is screwed in the press just like a regular die. You can open up a Lee push through die by honing it out with some 400-600 grit paper taped on a piece of wood or section of cut-off bolt mounted in drill or drill press. Check often by slugging the die. Finish polish with the same metal or wood dowel wrapped with 1500-2000 grit paper.

Pan lube using a soft BP lube like SPG. If you order some SPG you can also get some 45 cal wads. The 44 wads will work, but how well they work I don't know. It'd be better to use 45 cal wads.

Listen for the "clakkity... clunk" sound as the 76 action is cycled. Watch the movie "Crossfire Trail". Selleck uses his own original re-worked 76 carbine in the movie and the there's no mistaking the sound. :)

[TXGunNut]

Great thread! Fouronesix and others have given you some excellent advice and piqued my inyerest in this rifle and round. Have seen a few and passed on them, will seriously consider the next one I stumble across. All I can add is that BP loading isn't difficult, it's just different. Second point is don't be discouraged if you can't find a suitable boolit on the shelf, my first casting attempts worked better than anything I could buy. Third, Mike V and Steve Garbe's SPG Primer is a book that covers many aspects of BP loading impossible to adequately cover in a forum format.
Congrats on a very nice rifle, keep us posted. Looking forward to pics and range reports!

[kootne]

I would add a tip about cleaning black powder fouled breech loader barrels, especially lever guns that need to be cleaned from the front. It is easy to get crud in the action while cleaning the barrel because the liquid is squeezed out of the patch. What I do is minimize the liquid by just dampening the patch with a spray bottle and blowing through the barrel before pushing the patch through. It may take a few more patches but will control the process better. I always will leave an fired case in the chamber for the first few patches and that will seal off the action end of the barrel. A little crud will slip past the mouth a bit up the neck so make sure to run a couple more patches after removing the fired case. My original bore is pretty pitted, a new one probably would not be as hard to clean. The Lyman 330 grain HP mold with the pin modified to cast a flat point bullet will give you an almost exact copy of the bullet used in the original load.
kootne