Rifle accuracy with PC

[Freightman]

Dry tumbled boolits baked for 20 min @ 400 deg 200 Gr Lee boolit range scrap. @ 50 yds with a 03A3 Remington 1944 30-06 iron sites. Not bad for a old man I am 74 and feel ever bit of it sometimes ;-) PS no gas ck. oh yes volocy of 2100+or - fps.no leading rifle as clean as when i started.

[Smoke4320]

I would say not bad at all..
Congrads and keep it up

[AlaskanGuy]

Do you have a pic of the boolits.??

[jmort]

That works. No leading.

[Beagle333]

Very nice! And very encouraging as well. :grin:

[Freightman]

http://s1236.photobucket.com/user/freightman1/media/PIC00025_edited-3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=40

[Wayne Smith]

Frank, are those PPed?

[starmac]

Nice thanks for the post, it is sure answering some questions.

[Freightman]

I only dry tumble my boolits till coated no solvent (too messy) :grin:

[popper]

ES applied HF red, 24" AR. Took a few rnds to get the scope on target @ 50, cloverleafed, haven't shot this upper for > year. Tried LeverE/H4895 and compared to Amax @ 100. Didn't take the crony but guess @ 2600 due to longer bbl & slower powder. Got to load more of the LeverE to chrony. Should have been better shooting but sinus has me clogged up for last 2 weeks.
8754087541

[xyankeeworkshop]

Dang it, guys. Now you have me swaying back to hanging a .223 Wylde barrel off my new AR build instead of a .300 Blk. If you guys can offer any advice one way or the other, i'd certainly appreciate it.

[Freightman]

Both would be nice

[dverna]

Just want to confirm what I am seeing. About 2" groups at 50 yards. Is that correct? And no groups at 100 yards because.........????

Thanks,

Don Verna

[Mike Hughes]

Just want to confirm what I am seeing. About 2" groups at 50 yards. Is that correct? And no groups at 100 yards because.........????

Thanks,

Don Verna

Yes, I am starting at 50 yards, just getting started with the 223 and trying to figure out which powder will be best. I just loaded up some more with Varget, H335, and Reloader 22. I will also test these @ 50 and next step will be 100 yards. I really had no intention of posting and I had taken the pics for my own reference.
I have tried all the different coatings and Freightmans method is the quickest, cleanest, and easiest I have used

[popper]

Mike - you didn't indicate CB grs so I can't tell if you are at light or med load. What is your alloy, i.e. does it do better with normal lube? I'm trying to push this stuff as hard as I can and compare to jacketed. I used to do 1" @ 100 with the Amax so my shooting wasn't very good, that should make the groups about equal and close to same fps. I'm close to concluding this stuff is as good as jacketed for me.

[Mike Hughes]

boolit is Mihec nato 61-62 gr with pc and gas check. COWW water dropped from mold and after baking I am ending up with app bhn 10. My goal is to find a load that will be accurate, cycle the ar action, and not lead the barrel. The H4895 loads were 2000 fps (18 gr) to 2200fps(20gr) This boolit shot good with normal lube but barrel would lead quickly and accuracy would go away.

[Freightman]

I cant see the target at 100 yds Remember it is with a as issued 03A3 not a modern rifle with optics :grin:

[popper]

Mike - try WD immediately after baking. I went from 2% to 3% and accuracy improved a bit, WD after cooking of course.
H335 seemed to be the most accurate in the 16" carbine, slower powder for the longer bbl.

[dverna]

Popper, most of us would go "ga-ga" with a cast bullet shooting consistent 1 moa. Even a .30 caliber (which will be easier than doing it with a cast .22 cal).

Freightman, no offense meant. Just wanted to confirm what I saw. 2" groups at 50 yards are not what I am striving for.

Don Verna

[popper]

Don - does that 50 yd 3 some count? Personally I think it is possible, almost consistently, but not by me. If the sniper guy is a the range next time I'm there I'll ask him to see what he can do. For me, I'm pushing the 308 as hard as I can, nothing weird going on, no first shot flyer from 60F to 100F, from a basic low end AR. I need to quit playing around and SHOOT more to get better.
Freightman - did you 2x coat those or stand them up for cooking?

[dverna]

Popper,

You have done a lot of work on coatings and I agree with your conclusions that PC is currently the best coating for rifle loads: and yes a tiny 3 shot 50 yard group is very positive. I understand (if I recall) you are getting 1 MOA at 100 yards - that was why I commented. That is great performance if it is repeatable and you have done that a number of times - very promising!

My frustration is seeing a thread about "accuracy" and people thinking 3-4 moa at 50 yards means anything? It is highly likely that at longer ranges groups will get a lot larger than 3-4 moa - and that just sucks.

OK - Rant off.

Don Verna

[xacex]

Well, I can do 3 inch or less 5 shot groups with p/c 50 beowulf at 100 yards now, some-days I am doing better with touching groups of three. I handed the rifle off to a friend and he was shooting golf balls at 100, and pissing off the boys with their fancy 223's with factory ammo by shooting the balls they missed. It is interesting to see a golf ball cored from the 50. This was with a custom mold made by tom, and lee 440's. I had a wood 2x4 rest or standing, no sandbags. No first shot flier. In fact the cold shot with that one was usually 1 inch high at 100 right on the above the bulls-eye where I sighted it in. I took that one elk hunting this year. BTW, I was doing the same size groups with jacketed or plated so nothing is lost with P/C for me.
But, I have to say it is not a scorching round to begin with. I am shooting full power for jacketed, with a gas check air cooled. I might get better groups with water dropping after P/C, and sizing smaller. Now that hunting season is over I will work on some of this stuff more.
I'm not here to sell you on it. I could care less if you think if it will work for you or not. Just sharing what I see, and put it out there that with the results I am now seeing with pistol, and a few different rifles i am done with traditional, or tumble lubes. It took me some time to jump on board with this lube trend, and I am glad I tried it. Now what to do with all this LLA, and JPW on my shelf.

[dilly]

I am starting to think a powder coating forum would be a good idea. This is not because I want to stop reading about it but because I want to have a consolidated resource, stickies and all to read up on.

Way to build a field of knowledge guys, not only you but many others as well.

[3006mv]

care to share your 335 loads? i am using 18.5 H4895 and 21.5 Ramshot Tac in my piston AR 60 gr PC no gas check so so accuracy at 50, not bench rested though.

[dverna]

xacex

Do not evaluate performance against a bunch of "hacks" using factory ammo. You will lose a lot of money shooting 3" groups against someone who can shoot an AR in 5.56. It is not a realistic way to measure accuracy. I would love to be within driving distance and put your PC coated bullets against my .223 with jacketed bullets. $10/golf ball and we put out 100 golf balls. You will lose about $500 and learn a valuable lesson. A gun that shoots under 1 moa will CREAM a gun shooting 3 moa when shooting golf balls. You see, with a 3" group you can miss even with a perfect hold. With .75 moa, even if I shake a bit, I will hit the ball almost every time. And the jacketed bullets will shoot under moa for 100 shots or more. Have you ever shot a PC bullet group after 100 rounds? Does the group open up? You have no idea do you?

The reality is that there has been very little accuracy testing of coated bullets. Popper has done the most testing (or at least reporting) and even he admits he needs so send more rounds downrange. Yes, they hold promise. But they have not proven themselves - yet. And that is my point. 50 yards groups prove a negative. If they group badly at 50 yards, they are not getting any better farther out. But a 1/2" group at 50 could wind up being 2" at 100.

The lack of testing is perplexing. Maybe I am different, but once the scope is dialed in, I do all my accuracy testing at 100 yards. I see no point in 50 yard groups unless I expect the load to be a failure at longer ranges. This must be a "failing" I have from decades of jacketed bullet testing. Heck I even mount a scope on my .357, .44 and .30/30 Marlins to do accuracy testing. It doesn't make sense to shoot with iron sights to find an accurate load (unless I am using target peep sights).

I was really pumped about btroj (he seems to be on the ball) coating bullets; but he is starting with pistol bullets so even he is walking before running. He is doing HT and I sense HT will fail at rifle velocities. I know he had some bullets coated for his .375 but I must have missed the range report. So, I follow the work of popper. He reports the good with the bad and seems to be an OK guy. Popper has moved to PC for rifle loads and that seems to be the right decision.

Yes, I am being critical. It is necessary to do so because there is too much BS by people who have no concept of accuracy or are attempting to justify their method. Sometimes this site reminds me of "No child left behind". The dummying down of shooting so guys shooting 3" pistol groups at 7 yards can feel good about themselves. And I saw plenty of that on the pistol "accuracy" threads. Enough to make me wonder "Do these guys think they can shoot? And, what makes them feel qualified to make any accuracy claims?" Almost as silly as calling 3" groups with an AR at 100 yards accurate.


Don Verna

[xacex]

Don,

I have not seen any groups you have ever posted, so to say your "superior" shooting 5.56, and skill vs a 50 Beowulf that can consistently shoot a group less than 3 inches at 100 yards with a obviously inferior shooter than you are is invalid. I have shot groups that were touching, but with a gun that is sensitive to shoulder pressure, and the results of shooting more than 50 rounds in a day it is not expected to happen very often with anyone I know outside of some internet jockey who thinks he has hot rocks. Have you ever shot a 16" 50 Beowulf? Do you have a standard to judge by? NO excuses about what junk alloy, or this, or that that causes inherent inaccuracy, I just stated I shoot the same as jacketed with that gun. You would be more than welcome to try it out yourself and better my results with the 50. A lead sled showed up last week so it might prove useful for me to better my results for next years hunting season.
You asked for a standard, I gave you one. It shoots the same as jacketed, and some of the results were posted here.

To me it sounds like you want an excuse not to try powder coating for yourself. Maybe you are scared it will make you an inferior "no child left behind" for a while while you figure out you will start from scratch again.

Yes I shot some pistol groups that were right around 2", not 3" at 7 yards until I found a couple of good loads. Now they are consistently at 1". It wasn't free, and because folks like yourself don't want to play nice, some people won't show their results, or share what made the difference. Being a critic and asking questions is good, but if you feel this place is to "dumb'd down" for you there are other places you might feel at home. Pirate4x4.com comes to mind.

And yes, Popper has been a huge asset to the community for sharing not only his results, but his methodology. I am still filtering through adding copper to alloy thread that he posted. Thanks Popper!

[starmac]

Everybody has their own goals and uses which differ highly. I'm actually glad to see what you guys are doing.

[starmac]

I see a benefit in the 2 in groups, we all get to see their progress. freightman even stated he can't even see the target at 100 yards much less try for groups that some would find suitable. He is showing us his method,and what and how it has worked for him, I hope the bickering doesn't discourage him or anyone else. This whole site is about learning to make cast boolits and to get them to shoot to the best of their ability with their chosen equipment.

[freebullet]

I see a benefit in the 2 in groups, we all get to see their progress. freightman even stated he can't even see the target at 100 yards much less try for groups that some would find suitable. He is showing us his method,and what and how it has worked for him, I hope the bickering doesn't discourage him or anyone else. This whole site is about learning to make cast boolits and to get them to shoot to the best of their ability with their chosen equipment.

Seconded..& well said.

[dverna]

xacex,

One thing you are 100% correct about. I have no experience with a .50 or any large caliber in the AR. If the best a .50 can do is 3" groups at 100 yards then you have accomplished something by matching jacketed accuracy with a cast bullet. That is good; as that 440 gr bullet is probably running about 1800 fps. Not where I want to be with my smaller calibers but still faster than the pistol bullets most are shooting. The "good news" is that you are reporting no first shot fliers. That is important.

Sorry about getting cross-wise. I do get frustrated with accuracy reports that lack what I consider as acceptable accuracy. And I believe being nice is not really constructive in the long run. A person who shoots a 3" group at 7 yards with a pistol is either a horrible shot, has a gun that needs a lot of work, or has extremely poor ammo - but we never call it the way it is. I guess I expected a higher standard from rifle shooters but I will be patient.

BTW, I am not trying to find a reason not to try PC. I have the opposite problem. Can I justify the effort of PC'ing if it cannot deliver significantly better performance that a GC'ed cast bullet with "goop"? In the end, it is all about performance - at least for me. I have no horse in this race.

I am glad we agree that popper has been a huge asset to the quest. He is shooting an AR in .308 and that is a good accurate test bed. he seems to be on the right track.

Again sorry about getting sideways. In the end we are all here for the same reason -- to produce the most effective bullets possible.

Don Verna

[starmac]

Thumbs up to that post dverna.

[xacex]

Don,

I appreciate your time to re-evaluate what I posted. I hope we can get back on track with this thread and pull in some additional reports that may suit the accuracy that you expect.

[popper]

I think Goodsteel & Lovelife are getting into rifle PC to try, will anxiously wait for reports from them and others. Round & round it goes, where it stops - nobody knows. Yet. Is it good for HP matches? Don't know. Is it good for hunting, yes, I think so.

[Love Life]

My testing is on hold until spring. I have some brass to take care of and a new caliber to wring out over the winter.

[MBTcustom]

I'm in about the same shape as LoveLife. I'm doing experiments with HV cast loads and while powder coat is part if that, I'll be rolling with traditional methods first, and it may be spring or summer till I get to it.

[Freightman]

I see a benefit in the 2 in groups, we all get to see their progress. freightman even stated he can't even see the target at 100 yards much less try for groups that some would find suitable. He is showing us his method,and what and how it has worked for him, I hope the bickering doesn't discourage him or anyone else. This whole site is about learning to make cast boolits and to get them to shoot to the best of their ability with their chosen equipment.
No discouragement here it is still a free country and I could care less what the man thinks I am to old to start caring now. I will just ignore him, as far as his shooting ability I will say he can shoot his AR better than me as never shot a AR and really have no desire to. I will continue to post good or bad, and I never said I was a good shot in fact I am lousy up beside most. :lol: but Ido have fun. [smilie=w:

[popper]

88775
9 ring is 3/4" wide. #1= 10 shots, 2,3 are 8.
308 HF ES PC @ 30F. 3 called flyers. Shooting prone (haven't done that since '61) from bipod, ~ 50 yds/ 60 paces. I don't think you are supposed to use chest air & holding breath for elevation control but that's all I had. First shot is in first group middle. Ammo & rifle outside while GKs & I shot a box of clays, then SIL & I peppered a shale pile with 200 40 & 9s. Finished up with this just before the sleet started. Used the shale /gravel pile for backstop & didn't have 100 or 200 yds safe lane.