New Slugs To Test!

[longbow]

Well, I finally got around to modifying my mould and making up a few slugs.

I have a selection ~ starting form the left of the photo:

- 0.654" TC solid with hot melt glue skirt (originally from a mould designed by someone else to be used with steel shot wads)
- 0.685" TC solid with hot melt glue skirt ~ this one has a nose band at 0.685" and body at 0.662" for use in shotcup
- Lee Drive Key slug with glue skirt
- 0.685" TC hollow base with heavy skirt (0.100"+) ~ same mould as used for the solid with glue skirt

All for 12 ga. smoothbore and all fit into shotcups.

Weights vary but all are between 1 oz. and 500 grs.

I have tested the 0.654" slugs several years ago and they worked quite well when patched up to fit standard shotcups so I left the frustrating (to me anyway) world of hollow base slugs and headed down Brenneke lane. Well, the lane has had some potholes! Anyway, these had given some pretty good accuracy so I thought I would make some more and retest.

I also took what I thought were "best features" and made a slightly larger version with a larger nose band and body to fit directly into a standard shotcup with no patching. So far these have not done too well but I have improved my cast on skirts. These ones were drilled through for screws but normally I use a pin to leave a screw hole in the base.

The Lee Drive Key slug with glue skirt was my lazy man's way of making a Brenneke and so far they aren't doing badly turning in under 6" groups at 50 yards in the first round. These also have improved cast on skirts. That taper of the slug was a bit of a problem but I made a new skirt form to accommodate the taper and these came out nicely.

The TC slugs with glue skirts have screws run into the base to retain the glue skirt.

Last is the TC hollow base. While I had given up on hollow base slugs because I have had about every type and thickness skirt distort, I decided to give them another go because if I can get them to work they are quicker and easier to make.

The goal here is decent accuracy at 100 yards from smoothbore 12 ga.

To 50 yards, and maybe to 60/70, yards it is tough to do better than a round ball in my experience. However, somewhere out past 50 yards they start to veer off course randomly and by 100 yards groups tend to be large and/or there are fliers too far out of group.

So, I have been trying to produce a slug and load that will shoot into 6" or less at 100 yards... consistently. It has been a long haul and I have not succeeded with home made slugs and loads.

I have gotten some 6" +/- groups using BPI AQ slugs and factory Foster slugs of a couple of brands but not yet with home made slugs and loads.

I hope to get these tested this coming weekend. Range report to follow. I will be punchy after this round as I will have to shoot at least 10 of each from the bench to be sure of groups being good or not so good. 40 to 50 rounds of slug loads usually beats me up some. A heavier gun would be nice but shoulder padding will have to do.

Wish me luck and speedy recovery!

Longbow

[Ironduke]

I am really interested in the lee drive key slug/hot melt combo. I have struggled to get good accuracy with my loads, and I am convinced the slug yaws as it leaves the barrel. The sooner the yaw is corrected in flight, the less variation there will be in the flight path. Adding length, and light weight tail section should cause the slug to fly nose on earlier in the flight.

I could see a mold that would make divots in the tail of the HM skirt. Basically, the divots would result in kind of clunky, but stout fins. Say 4 divots equidistant around the tail of the skirt would be easy to machine into the mold, I'd think. You wouldn't want the resulting fins to be too thin or they would be damaged during acceleration probably. I'm kinda thinking out loud here. I could be totally off base.

I wonder if a small hollow in the base of the skirt would improve flight characteristics?

[longbow]

I've tried finned slugs form a mould I made and about the same time Diehard sent me a photo of Rocket Slugs that were factory slugs made with 4 fins (mine had 6 fins). Diehard subsequently sent me a few Rocket slugs. In both cases the fins crushed. The Rocket slug fins crushed to about nothing and mine distorted badly even though I made sure I had more fin cross sectional area than a typical hollow base slug. heat treating solved fin crushing but I still did not get good accuracy.

I went back to Foster style and Brenneke style slugs then settled on Brenneke because I had so much trouble with Foster skirts distorting ~ even thick ones.

The hot melt glue skirts work pretty well loaded into a shotcup. Of course one wouldn't want hot melt glue rubbing on the bore! I tumble them in talcum powder before loading.

The skirt forms are made out of CPVC pipe couplings bored to suit then a wipe of wheelbearing grease as mould release. Works pretty well.

I have not done much shooting with the Lees + skirts but like I said, first time out they did okay and the skirts were less than stellar. I did not try them further than 50 yards but will this time if 50 yard accuracy is decent.

Longbow

[cpileri]

You're giving me inspiration!
I might have to try the glue-skirt in my 20ga smoothebore that is giving me fits.
C-

[longbow]

If you go with a glue skirt it is best to make the slug a "wad slug" so it fits into a standard shotcup. As mentioned, when I do that I also use something like talcum powder or formerly BP lube on the slug to ensure the shotcup lets go. Any gas leakage can soften the glue.

Alternately I have made bore size slugs then used a one wrap and glued heavy paper tube on the slug to pour a bore size skirt. The paper tube prevents glue smearing down the barrel.

Both work but I find using standard wads with slugs size to fit quicker and easier.

Longbow

[cpileri]

How about these for attaching a skirt?

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/HB12-12ga-x-8mm-Wad-Base-250_bag/productinfo/072HB12/

They are a gas seal w a hole pre-drilled right in the center.
If they made some in 20ga...
C-

[longbow]

Those look pretty nice!

I gave up trying to get screwed on basewads consistent, just couldn't seem to get them lined up the same each time even in a jig but those plastic wads should work well if they are tight on a screw.

They would be for bore size slugs obviously.

I have a full bore mould as well so may just try that out. I only have to modify the HB pin to make a screw pedestal then giver 'er a go.

I was planning to get loaded up today and shoot tomorrow but life kinda got in the way again so I will see what happens tomorrow. I should get some loaded anyway but testing will likely be a week away. The range is booked for a shoot tomorrow as well but if I get time I will drive into the bush a shoot a few. I would rather do testing off the bench but I will do what I can do.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Longbow, those are some good lookin slugs.
Just an inquiry, but if you are going to put that much time into making good /accurate slugs, wouldn't it be beneficial to get a rifled barrel to do your testing, to get all the accuracy you can get??
Just asking.
Regards
Jack

[longbow]

littlejack:

It is a long story... loooooonnnng, loooonnnng story so I won't bore you with all the details. Suffice it to say that I have always wanted a Paradox gun which would shoot both shot and slug. Don't ask why because I can't really say, I just do. I like the versatility of smoothbores. The Paradox gun provides smoothbore and rifled gun performance. Well, I really can't afford a Paradox gun so... I decided to pursue "precision" slug shooting in smoothbores.

In my defense, I was influenced by Lyman's statement that 4" groups at 100 yards are possible with the Lyman Foster slug. Well, I can't prove they aren't possible but I think I can state that they certainly are not probable!

I started out about 25 years ago using a Lyman Foster slug mould and Lyman load data in my Browning BPS slug and buck barrel with high hopes of 4" to 6" groups at 100 yards. I failed!

Best I think I ever got from the Lyman Foster is about 8" at 50 yards.

Fist problem is that the Lyman Foster casts so far under bore size it is stoopid. They slug up anyway if cast of pure lead so why not make them the right size? SO paper patching got be some decent groups but still with too many fliers. And the quest had begun!

I read reports of wonderful accuracy from smoothbores and I have tried many of the techniques and often with some success but not consistent groups of less than 6" at 100 yards and even those have been rare for me.

So far, to 50, 60 and maybe 70 yards, round ball loads are hard to beat but groups start to open up not too far after 50 yards and 100 yards groups can be unpredictable. Sometimes quite good but not dependable.

So, I have waded through a variety of smoothbore slug designs ~ commercial slugs, slugs from custom moulds, slugs from commercial moulds, factory slugs and a variety of slugs from home made moulds.

Best accuracy I have had so far is from BPI AQ slugs and Federal factory Foster slugs with both giving 6" +/- groups at 100 yards.

I have not handloaded Brenneke slugs in many years and only loaded a few Gualandi slugs. Both are too expensive for me to shoot many of as are the BPI AQ slugs so I have been striving to come up with a home made slug and load that will do the job.

I believe these next tests will be my last if they do not do well at 100 yards. If that is the case, I will stick with round ball loads and reduce range to 50/60 yards.

I do plan on making a rifling bench to produce a deep grooved slow twist choke tube for round ball or "square" slug. I just haven't got to doing it largely because I have been holding out hope for the mythical 6" or less groups at 100 yards from my smoothbores.

Also, ultimately the goal was/is a poor man's double rifle using a side by 12 ga. with rifle sights. Preferable Paradox rifled (there's that versatility thing again). Not something readily available at an affordable price.

Sorry, long post and believe it or not nowhere near "all the details"! But you asked.

That's my story and I am sticking to it! We all need our challenges!

Longbow

[littlejack]

Longbow, I do understand. I would love to have one of the old Paradox guns. If you remember, I was testing the .69 caliber musket conical in my Hastings barreled 870. Well, final results were not good at all. I suppose, I could have kept on playing with different powders, wads etc. I did decide that the conical shape was the main culprit of the poor accuracy. Weather or not that is the correct cause of the lousy accuracy, I will never know. I do believe however that that is the reason for the "square" slugs in shotshell slug loads. Anyway, I will just stick to the ball loads that have given very good accuracy, and definitely the Lyman 525 Sabot Slug loads.
Your persistence sir is definitely to be admired sir. You can definitely state that you tried your best to get all the accuracy possible from a smooth bore.
My best regards
Jack

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longbow.

I'm still following your project with the greatest interest. If you're interested I have a spare mold (straight ribs) from the first design I made. Also, I have an extra mold for making epoxy wads. PM me an address and I'll ship both items for you at no charge. If you rather pursue your own design instead I fully understand that, but anyone as dedicated as you need all the support we can muster :smile:

I still need to finish the new helical mold/wad design before I throw in the towel and declare 50 yards for the max range of a smooth bore, but as always I'm short of time... right now I'm working on a couple of molds for jigheads for a fisher friend of mine. In return he supplies me with a supply of turned brass bullets for my various rifles so his molds takes first priority.

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan:

That is a very generous offer! However, at this point let's hold that thought whilst I play some more with my moulds. Not that I prefer mine to yours at all. Your mould is a work of art! We are a long ways apart though so shipping would be costly for sure. I have a few straight ribbed moulds I have made though not nearly as nice as yours. Mine are quite utilitarian but do produce a decent slug.

I have a few more things to try myself before I too declare that I have caved in to recoil from sending tons of lead downrange.

So far, to 50 yards I have not found anything better than a round ball! Maybe even 60/70 yards. However somewhere after 50 yards groups do start to open up... usually but even when they don't there are too many random fliers for me to be happy. So I decided to venture into hollow base slug territory many years ago. I tried wad slugs and full bore slugs, commercial moulds and home made moulds. After shooting hundreds of slugs I came to the conclusion that the Brenneke style just made more sense so strayed into Brenneke territory. I found that I just could not find readily available materials that would make a wad durable enough and consistent enough to be acceptable.

I am sure leather or hard felt would work but first of all finding what I need at an affordable price then punching/drilling and installing wads to slugs in a consistent fashion just wasn't easy. I made jigs and tried a variety of materials but all failed until I tried the hot melt glue as a cast on skirt/wad and that showed promise. In fact I got some pretty good results but it was difficult to get glue wads without air pockets and to get nice even flat base and sharp clean edges.

Well, with these new skirt forms I have that about beat now I think so these slugs stand about the best chance I think, if I get loads right.

I do have my old wide ribbed Brenneke mould I will make some full bore ribbed slugs as well but with glue skirts this time to see how they work. In full bore, the glue skirt has to be paper patched or cast in a paper or plastic tube so glue does not tough the bore. All my others are wad slugs so no problem there.

I wish I had more time to get out and shoot but time has been limited. I do have a variety of slugs yet to test or re-test. Soon I hope!

Anyway, I have attached a few photos of some of the slugs I have tried over the years. All the ribbed and finned slugs came from home made moulds. There are also a couple of Rapine full bore hollow base slugs and a Lyman sabot slug I recovered that someone else had shot (looks like it had been in the berm for years). you will see why some of my narrow ribbed Bernnekes failed right off ~ not enough bearing surface/crushed ribs.

I would love to test your mould and epoxy wads but let's save that for a bit then we'll talk about it. I would not expect you to bear the cost of shipping to Western Canada.

Thank you again for your generous offer.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

LB, you'll recall my discovery that the 7/8 oz Lee slugs were front heavy (lay them on their sides and they stand on their nose). I believe this is why I've achieved the kind of accuracy you're looking for out of smoothbore. There's nothing else special about my loads. Like an arrow followings its' weighted point the slug is self stabilizing ??? Weighting up the back would eliminate this distinction among other slugs and tend to even greater wobbling ???

[longbow]

Hogtamer:

Yup, nose heavy is the goal. It is all relative though. These relatively short solid slugs with skirts do not stand on their noses like the Lees but the balance point is well forward of the middle.

My TC glue skirt slugs balance just a hair behind the nose band which is about 1/3 the way way.

The old (no longer available) BPI AQ slugs were longer than Brennekes but they also stood on their noses when left to their own devices. Best smoothbore accuracy I have gotten is with AQ slugs. Unfortunately I have been unable to duplicate them at home. Close but no cigar!

Not disputing your success with the Lee 7/8 oz. slug at all either. I am planning to get myself a mould and try them out. For $25 what's to lose?

I like the wad type slugs like Lee because they are easy to load and no special stuff required.

So far though my Lee 1 oz. slug performs better with the skirt than without. Now the 7/8 oz. might even respond better. Who knows?

Now, having said that, aesthetics comes into this too and those finned slugs I made really looked cool. Didn't shoot worth a hoot but sure looked cool. I kept some just because they look cool.

What sort of accuracy are you getting at 100 yards with that Lee 7/8 oz. slug?

I should order one this weekend. In fact I will order one this weekend. Might as well give it a go. I prefer the TC shapes with flat nose and more solid design too but if the Lee will hit what I want, well, that is the first goal. Like I have said many times ~ round balls to 50 yards or so are hard to beat but stretch that to 100 yards and the game changes. I am still struggling to get decent accuracy at 100 yards.

on that note, next time out I will shoot some more 0.662" RB's in the remaining Uniwads with good solid fill in them. We'll see how that goes.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

I went to a real range just yesterday and got some funny looks when i walked up with my scoped 870! The guy i went with walked out to the 100 yd berm and I asked him to put me up a target while he was there. He thought was joking! I shot 10 times and the first 2 painted perfect windage, one 2" low and one 2" high per his spotting scope. The more I shot the higher they got and moved right. A hot barrel is my only explantion. Oh, and i shot these out of a sawed-off barrel, 24" so a cylinder bore - not the long barrel with screw in chokes I've been using. And for what it's worth I get total wad destruction! I chalk that up to the very old and brittle WAA 12r short red wads I used up. I do get the occasional flyer that I can't explain. The loads were Fed, 209, 34 gr LSHT, bpi x12x basewad, the Win wad mentioned, 2 - 20 ga 1/8 nitros, slug, 8 pt crimp. I've finally used up those old wads and plan on getting some of the Trap commander wads that AJ prefers. I may be able to eliminate the basewad as they are longer. Backed off to 34 from 36 grns Longshot for sake of the old shoulder and would love to show you a spent slug, just can't find anything to stop them that's soft enough to dig one out. Hope to get a deer with one and document results.

[artee]

Please excuse what may seem like "preachyness" as I quickly try to summarize some info.

I've cast and loaded the Lyman hollow base foster style (but not rifled) slugs since the mid 70's. I've also bought from other casters the same design slug in both as cast smooth side and from one guy who sold a rifled sided version (the "rifling" was cut into them after casting--Looked Factory pretty!). Most have gone down a 20in Ithica Model 37 with Deerslayer barrel from the mid 70's. This was still smoothbore but according to factory info basically "tight spec"/undersize from forcing cone to muzzle (NOT "Choked" as some incorrectly say). I liked Unique for practice (lower velocity and less powder used), and IMR 7625 for "full power". It was 10 years after I loaded these a lot before I got a chronograph, and most of my shooting was at 25 yards in a small gravel pit and not at the local range.


My personal cast Lyman fosters would be under 2 inch at 25 yards. No problem with 100% hits on "tall boy" beer cans littering the gravel pit.

With Factory foster style slugs (Winchester being best till about 2000 when Remington caught up and Federal about the same as Big Green). I could go about 2 inches at 50 yards. At 75 yards groups held to that angle (there being 3 in. or so) but then would start to open up with the square of the distance increase instead of in direct arithmetic proportion. In other words, you would expect 4 in. at 100 based on 50 and 75 but got about 6 inches (5 in. to 6 in.) for groups at that distance. IE a 133% increase in range from 75 yds gave not a 4 in. group, but a 3in x 169% increased group size (if you multiply 3in x 1.69 you get about 5.1 in or right in the range of my 100 yard groups).
This is EXACTLY what you should expect for objects acted on by a SIDE FORCE. F = ma and "a" or acceleration involves a SQUARED TERM.

I would look to a good factory load as setting the standard and not likely to be exceeded. But at any rate, an accuracy standard. If you can shoot only a 6 inch or 9 inch group at 100 yards with your best factory slugs, I wouldn't expect a significant difference with your best handloads.

OK Personal experience and preaching over.

You have with roundballs in shotguns, and none spin stabilized "slugs" from shotguns, basically the same issues faced by SMOOTHBORE MUZZLELOADERS (ie "Muskets") so, here are some very good threads from another board some going back a decade dealing with MUSKET accuracy. (Most based on what guys, some competitors, actually shoot)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=617212&highlight=Smooth+bore+accuracy

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=525&highlight=Ballistics+of+old+time+weapons

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=19273&highlight=round+ball+trajectory

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=629716&highlight=round+ball+trajectory

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=32906&highlight=Pennsylvania+rifles+What+is+their+real+r ange%3F

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=679476&highlight=Smooth+bore+accuracy

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-675907.html

I realize some of these seem to be for rifles/rifled bores, but you know how shooters tend to wander around a subject and none of the threads is very long.

Happy Reading.

[artee]

Longbow, the reason behind my post is to confirm your 50/100 yard accuracy theory and if you read the posts at the URLs above, you'll see that basically is what the smoothbore muzzleloaders expect also. Accruracy is good till about 65/70/75 yard area, then declines more rapidly than range increases would suggest.

[longbow]

artee:

I will go through those links when I get some time. I am sure there will be some good stuff there.

I understand the seemingly sudden increase in group size after a certain distance (seems like 60 to 70 yards in my experience).

I have read of smoothbore shooters getting 3" groups at 75 yards and even competing with rifles at 100 yards. I do not doubt it. I have been saying all along that if we can launch a round ball dead center out of the bore and with no spin we should be able to get accuracy similar to what the musket shooters get with patched round ball. I may there or close anyway as my round ball loads are quite accurate to at least 50 yards (3" to 4" groups) but at 100 they do tend to spread out and/or have some random fliers.

I am sure some slugs will do better than round balls at 100 yards and in fact, I have shot factory slugs that grouped under 6" at 100 yards. What I have not been able to achieve is that kind of accuracy... consistently, from handloads using home made slugs.

My first "slug" mould was a 0.690" round ball mould. I did not do too well with it. I did make up an AQ clone using the 0.690" RB's and if I got the skirt nice and consistent they actually worked pretty well. Not as good as commercial AQ's but better than most hollow base slugs I have tried.

After reading in one of my Lyman handbooks that the Lyman Foster could be depended on to provide 4" groups at 100 yards with good loads (smoothbore), I went out and bought a Lyman Foster slug mould. What a disappointment it was! It casts at 0.705" so grossly undersize for any of my "standard" bore shotguns which all run around 0.729"/0.730". Accuracy was dismal to non-existent using Lyman load recipes and pure lead slug as recommended.

I recovered many of these slugs from deep snow so could check slug condition and basically every one had slugs up different ~ skirts crushed, noses cocked, uneven body length, etc.

I tried paper patching them to get them to bore size and that did help but still too many fliers.

I gave up one them.

The best 50 yard accuracy I got was about 6" and more typically 8" to 12".

I get far better accuracy from round ball loads.

So, I decided to try a variety of hollow base slugs, of commercial and home built designs. Almost all have been better than the Lyman in my guns using my loads and Lyman recipes. Some have been pretty good but skirt failure/distortion was an on going theme.

So far from limited shooting with Lee Drive Key slugs they are out performing the Lyman by a large margin. More testing to be done though.

Subsequently I decided that the Brenneke style makes more sense and I do not like the way the typical Fosters flatten out into big lead washers anyway so a solid style with attached wad was the direction I went. I have had some good successes but not enough better than round ball at 50 yards to be worth the effort and not into the mythical (for me anyway) 4" group at 100 yards.

Certainly not disputing your success or that of other people. I have failed using the Lyman slug and do not like it anyway so did not pursue it. The nose and skirt are too thin for my liking (lead washer syndrome), the mould is horrible to cast with and I can't get it to shoot.

Another point that you bring up as well is that I understand those Ithacas did tend to have very tight bores and that they had (have) a reputation for good performance. Again, no argument from me there. Unfortunately my Browning BPS has a bore running 0.729"resulting in a 0.024" clearance with the Lyman slug. Way too much slop.

I recently did some more testing with that Lyman slug after being advised on how to build a wad column that would provide consistent "slug up". Again, my results were poor. Not saying the advice was wrong, just saying I couldn't get it to work. I didn't give it any retries though as I really do not like the Lyman Foster slug design anyway.

My home made slug moulds are much easier to use and cast a better slug that shoots better. All in all though, I like round balls. They just have a moderate range limitation from smoothbores.

I have a few more designs to test before I throw in the towel though. We will see how they do.

Next in line if this doesn't work out is a slow twist deep rifled choke tube. I plan on setting up to make a rifling bench if I can make time. My 0.735" round balls did very well though a rifled Remington 870 and I believe they would work using a rifled choke tube. Some people have reported very good accuracy using standard factory choke tubes but not only don't I have a gun tapped for choke tubes, I think the rifling is too shallow and twist too fast for full bore slugs. My opinion. I plan to make something about 1:70" or slower to suit full bore round ball or "square" slug.

I know it would be easier to just go out and buy an H&R slug gun. They are inexpensive and accurate but my ultimate goal was an accurate side by slug gun and I cannot afford a big bore double rifle so shotgun slugs it is. I am stubborn!

Sorry, long post. Got to thinking out loud as I went.

Thanks for the links, I will run through those later or tomorrow. Also, thanks for the info and feedback. I am always open to suggestion and trying to learn new things.

Longbow

[longbow]

Well, I still haven't managed to get to the range but I did manage to modify another mould to make another slug to test. This one was originally the finned slug mould converted to hollow base. The first go I made the skirt a bit thinner than I should have. This time the skirt between ribs is 0.075" to 0.080" then the ribs are much thicker.

The balance point is just behind the start of the ribs so well forward of center. The hollow base plug has 4 degree taper and near flat top so keeps weight well forward.

Weight is between 515 and 520 grs. so I will use Lyman 525 gr. sabot slug load data.

I weighed all my new slugs too:

- Lee Drive Key slugs weigh 445 grs.
- Lee with glue skirt weighs 480 grs.
- new TC hollow base weigh 475 grs.
- new TC hollow base with glue skirt weigh 510 grs.
- TC solid Brenneke style with glue skirt weigh 505 grs.
- TC solid old style (without nose band) weigh 465 grs.

All cast from range scrap.

So now I have 7 new slug designs to test! I can feel the recoil already! I will have to shoot 10 of each to be sure I have a reasonable idea of groups.

Not sure I will make it through all in one day but I will try. Now to get some range time.

Longbow

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Brother LongBow, your slugs just look very mouth watering, can I have some to go!

I wish you all the very best, Longbow!
Please be sure to put a .170" darker nitro card or .250" nitro card from Circle Fly right below the slug and a great OP wad like Powder cup with a .125-28 nitro card to fill the top cavity.

Passing the torch of knowledge is something done out of genetic responsibility!

Hoping it helps.
Best regards,
Ajay Madan
Super Blazing Sabots
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl[/url]
http://slugshooting.accountsupport.com/[/url] ... wforum.php
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr[/url] ... ot!/page1
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=118&t=196961[/url]
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/fo...p?f=43&t=39246[/url]
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/slug-gu...old-is-gold-!/[/url]
-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
Location: New Jersey. USA / Frankfort, W.Germany / London, UK

[longbow]

Ajay:

I will eventually get all these slugs tested. if they shoot well I will send you some for unbiased testing. No problem for me to send to you but not vice versa.

I am pretty sure the ribbed slugs wouldn't do well in a rifled barrel but if my glue skirt wad slugs show decent accuracy from smoothbore I am betting they will work well in a rifled gun because the glue "slugs" up so exact fit may not be an issue. I would like to find out anyway.

I am very familiar with wads winding up in hollow cavities so will do my best to keep things where they should be! I will certainly use some nitro card wads under the ribbed slugs and will probably fill some cavities as well just to be sure.

I had about given up on hollow base slugs but after seeing turbo's hollow base design decided to give them another try. We will see how this goes.

I was planning on shooting this weekend but we have a fund raiser for the Philippines to go to and my wife is one of the organizers. That is more important than shooting. Her family in the Philippines is okay but many of our friends were not so lucky. Very sad.

I will keep you posted on range results.

Longbow

[PrecisionAmmunition]

Very interested to see how these shoot.

[Cap'n Morgan]

The balance point is just behind the start of the ribs so well forward of center. The hollow base plug has 4 degree taper and near flat top so keeps weight well forward.

Just a little practical information on the weight distribution in a hollow base projectile which isn't always obvious at first glance. As long the length of the core cavity is increased the CoG (Center of Gravity - your balance point) will move forward, but once the core length is increased beyond the CoG, the CoG will begin moving toward the rear as you are now removing weight from the front end of the projectile!

On an ideal design the CoG would be exactly on top of the core cavity. Balancing the slug on an edge will give you a pretty good indication, but if you need a more exact number, I can make a quick 3D model from a sketch and then derive the CoG from it.

Good luck with the test.

[longbow]

Thanks Cap'n but I already have it. I modeled the slug in Alibre 3D. The balance point is a little behind the front edge of the ribs. Can't recall offhand what the distance from the base was but it is well forward.

I am still not a hollow base fan but since I haven't done much, if any, better with anything else I thought I would steal turbo's hollow cavity design with the flat top, make a thick skirt and try them out. Also, I wanted to make a deeper cavity to try with hot melt glue skirts so I do not have to put a screw in the base when I cast on skirts. The ribbed HB style will get tested an dif decent them more testing. If not the skirt will be thickened considerable then shortened to keep weight around 500 grs. and it will become a "hybrid" Brenneke with smallish cavity to attach the glue skirt to.

So far the attached wad slugs seem to show the best results for me. I have four styles to try now and will have a 5th if I add a skirt to the ribbed slug.

Now to get to the range! Can't go today due to the Philippine benefit event. It will have to be next week.

How is your Brenneke design doing?

Longbow

[longbow]

Finally got out shooting!

The weather warmed up to a few degrees below freezing so not too bad. There is only a couple of feet of snow at the range so again, not too bad.

I had lots of slugs to shoot. Not only those shown in the first post and the ribbed slug shown in post #19 but I also added glue skirts to 5 of the TC hollow base wad slugs (HB filled with glue and about 5/16” of skirt extending back)... and I had some leftovers from last time too so more Lee Drive Key Slugs, 0.662” round balls and some other miscellaneous rounds including three Rapine 730550 slugs.

I decided to shoot it all up.

I had some high hopes for this outing so that probably paints a picture of where this is going... shooting results were not very good.

I figured the TC Brennekes both new and old style would turn in a decent performance as they had in the past but not to be yesterday. Also, I figured the ribbed slug would do well but again I was disappointed.

It isn't all bad but even the “good” groups aren't great.

Best groups were:

- TC hollow base with skirt at approx. 4 1/2” x 5 1/4”

90646


- as cast Lee Drive Key Slug at approx. 4 in 6” x 7” with one wild flier

90647


- Lee Drive Key Slug with skirt at approx. 4 in 5” x 6” with one wild flier

90648


- left over 0.662” round balls in Uniwads at approx. 4 1/2” x 2 3/4” with one wild flier

90649


All shooting was to 50 yards only.

Load for all the “new slugs to test” was:

- 32 grs. SR4756 in Federal hull with paper basewad for all
- Winchester wad either white or yellow to suit slug length/crimp height
- Winchester gas seals and hard card wads with nitro card wad under ribbed slugs (full bore)

Load for 0.662” round balls:

- 38.5 grs. SR4756 in 2 1/2” Fiocchi hull
- Uniwad without internal cage
- scoop of COW under the ball

The Rapine slugs grouped two in 1” and one went... somewhere else entirely. I found the same when I tested them before. Four into about 2” at 50 yards then a keyhole. Next group all over, next group 3 or 4 together and a flier or two. I suspect skirt damage but did not recover any so no proof.

Observations:

- hardly any of the wads fully opened
- most wads were in very good condition, no burning or distortion but not open
- most wads show little scuffing on the petals ~ maybe not enough pressure behind them to obturate
- recoil was relatively mild
- I got noticeable muzzle flash on some shots but not all (incomplete combustion?)
- most holes are round and pretty clean even where groups were large except for the TC hollow base slugs which obviously yawed leaving oval holes
- the ribbed slugs left a hole that looked like a gear went through the target!

90650

Group was non-existent but the holes in the target and backer were dead on round.
- The 0.662” ball loads shot poorly out of my cylinder bore gun so I didn't expect much but they seemed to do okay out of my Browning BPS with I/C choke. Wad petals were still badly sheared but at least 4 of them found their way to a decent group. That is about the group size I would normally expect from good round ball loads.

I am thinking that the 32 gr. load was a bit light for this new test and combustion may have been irregular. Having said that, I would hate to have to load to hot levels all the time or have accuracy go South.

I have no good answers as to why performance was so poor for most of the slugs especially those that have done well in the past ~ except for the light load. It is possible that a heavier powder charge would result in obturation of slug or glue skirt giving better fit to bore so better accuracy. I have certainly seem more evidence of petals being squeezed against the bore than from the wads recovered this time. Maybe that is part of it.

What really surprised me was that the ribbed slugs did so poorly. They hit nose on but the group was HUGE. These slugs fit the bore well, have heavy skirt and balance point well forward. The skirt/hollow base follows turbo's recommendation for design. They are way better balanced than Lees or Lyman Fosters and should have shot well but didn't.

I have to think that there was skirt distortion for the hollow base slugs as I have seen it many times before. These slugs were all cast from range scrap and not heat treated. I have had to heat treat in the past even with thick skirts. I figured these were thick enough to not required it... maybe not.

I will retest the TC hollow base and TC hollow base with skirt and the ribbed slugs. I will try filling the hollow bases with hot melt glue for support, adding glue skirts to the wad slugs and heat treating the ribbed slugs.

If that doesn't work, I'm stumped! It will be back to round balls for me! Those I get along with and they are hard to beat to 50 yards. They are not good long range projectiles which is what I was looking for but I think I am nearing the end of experimentation.

If I can't get decent and consistent slug groups the next step is to make a slow twist rifled choke tube and try round balls through it. If that works, I am done ~ no more experimenting, just shooting! If not then I may just break down and buy a rifled gun.

I have to say that I am not feeling much like an Elite Musketeer at this point! I am feeling more like a beginner.

I did have a good day at the range though. It was a lot of fun even though things didn't go quite as I'd hoped. The bang, recoil and smell of burning powder always makes me feel good.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

LB,
1) 4756 and paper base hulls? Just asking....
2) I found full bore slug ps better out of IC choke as well
3) what kind of sight?
4) those RB loads look pretty good if no optics. AJ's trap commander wads fit those RB great. I've still got a few you sent me to load and will report.
5) "only a couple of feet of snow at the range!" HAH we had a heavy frost one day last week!

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longbow, I feel your disappointment!

Each time we try out a new load or design we hope for an improvement over the last time or at least similar results. But when things actually gets worse... it's a long trip home from the range.

I haven't got around finishing my new mold yet. This time I want every thing to be perfect! No more "good enough" slugs with blemishes or imperfect wads. Only when I have a large batch of perfect slugs will I start working up loads. Six shot groups will be mandatory! Gotta keep at least a semi-scientific approach to the task this time.

[Hogtamer]

LB, let's blame it on the full moon! I just had a long ride home from the range and will post results on the LR test thread.

[longbow]

Hogtamer:

My two guns used on Sunday were an old Cooey single shot cylinder bore and a Browning BPS with I/C choke slug barrel. Both with open sights.

Yeah, 4756 and paper base hulls. No sign of problems.

What I found strange was that those 0.662" balls in the Uniwads you sent fit the bore well but didn't shoot well from my cylinder bore gun ~ ALL wad petals were sheared off. I figured the ball set back too much and those petals have quite a taper on them so too tight. However, those exact same loads shot nicely from my Browning with an I/C choke. Again, petals sheared but 4 balls found their way to a nice group and I think the 5th was just a bit high but my backer had so many holes I couldn't say for sure.

That round ball load is what I would normally expect for 5 shots at 50 yards. That's why I am struggling with the slugs so much. To 50 yards, I have trouble finding a slug that will compete with round balls!

Cap'n Morgan:

Yes, it was a bit disappointing not that I am not getting used to it, but after having had good results with the two types of TC Brenneke slugs before I was surprised at how poorly they did this time. Like I said, my suspicion is that the somewhat undersize glue skirt did not see enough kick in the butt to swell up and fill the bore. Wads were barely scuffed on the sides this time, where last time out with heavier charges, the glue area below the slug had obviously squished out and pressed the petals hard against the bore.

What was even more surprising was the full bore ribbed slug. That one is a barely slide fit in the bore and has thick skirt with deep cavity copied from turbo's proven cavity design. There, I have to think that they suffered skirt damage or wads ramming into the cavity. I did use a hard card wad + nitro card wad + poly disk under the slug but... They all hit nose on and cut "gear" holes in the paper but the group was like 12" or bigger.

I will try heat treating some, filling the cavities of some and adding a glue skirt to some then give those another go. I am sure they can do better than this!

I will also give the TC hollow base with skirt another go. They seemed not too bad and with a slightly heavier load or slightly tighter fit should perform better.

If I fail next time with no good excuses it is back to round balls for me! Hmmm, that may take me out of the long range challenge though. We can't have that! I must find one decent slug load! I will work hard on the TC hollow base with skirt and the ribbed slug. One has to work.

Not complaining though. I had a good time testing and learned some more lessons (along with a dose of humility). I was a good day at the range regardless.

More testing to come!

Longbow

[gideons301]

If you have a gun with screw in chokes you could try a rifled choke to get close to your goal. Several yeas ago I got my hands on a 12 inch section of 12 gauge barrel and made some of my own. My gun is a older Winchester 1200 with Win Choke. At that time I was working in a paper mill and had access to a good lathe. Made up several, one just long enough to stick out of the barrel, and three different ported that extend a bit at the end of the barrel. Got the best results with a ported choke that has just shy of 3 3/4 inches of rifling. I have seen rifled chokes for sale at times for various models of choke tubes.

Gideons301

[longbow]

If I don't manage to get accuracy in the range of 6" groups at 100 yards with easily available materials and slugs, which is looking pretty iffy at this point, I plan to try a rifled choke tube. However, I plan to make a Cutts Compensator style muzzle brake with deep rifled slow twist choke tube.

I used to have a set of Pachmyr (IIRC) choke tubes and barrel adapter but had to make my own muzzle brake. This set up was a little different than the current style of choke tubes and these had large "flanged" shoulders on them. None were rifled but I liked the style and they are suited to the muzzle brake system. The large flanged shoulders would keep them from winding in too tight from the reaction to spinning the slug. I have read of people having to take guns to a gunsmith to get chokes tubes out. James gates of Dixie Slugs commented on that issue as well.

The problem with modern choke tubes is that they have shallow fast twist rifling. If they worked well then I suspect we would not see fully rifled barrels and since rifled choke tubes were offered widely a few years ago and didn't really catch on that tells me they were much if any better than a smoothbore. Yes, they are still available but I do not read much about them for sabot slugs in the gun rags.

Some claim success with them but I have not tried as none of my guns are threaded for choke tubes, so I can't say for sure. Rather than send my guns or barrels away to have them machined and threaded for modern choke tubes I will make my own barrel adapter for screw on muzzle brake then make a rifled choke tube to suit. I have been planning on making a rifling bench anyway so this is a good excuse to get me going. This one will be short and just for choke tubes. Once made I will be able to rifle at whatever twist I want.

My original goal was a poor man's Paradox rifle using Brenneke or other slugs but 100 yard accuracy was my goal. Now after years of testing and playing I have as yet to do much better than round balls at 50 yards and the 100 yard dream is still that ~ a dream.

I am sure that I could get a Brenneke clone made that would produce accuracy similar to the factory Brenneke but so far I have been unsuccessful using readily available materials. I am not willing to spend big bucks for materials or spend endless hours on each slug so that limits what I will do or try.

Round balls shoot well to 50 yards, and better than almost any slug I have tried but they drift not far after 50 or 60 yards so groups open up.

Anyway, back to the rifled choke tube. I want to make something with deep wide grooves and narrow lands with a slow round ball twist of about 1:72" (which is actually fast for 12 ga. round ball). I think modern choke tubes have too fast a twist and rifling that is too shallow. Look at the old Paradox guns with their deep ratchet rifling. They worked and worked well. I can't afford a Paradox gun though.

So there you have it. I am stubborn and cheap. Besides which the testing and trying has been fun ~ frustrating at times but overall fun and educational.

After the tons of lead and pounds of powder I have shot downrange I have not improved much if any the the plain 'ol round ball which does exceedingly well to at least 50 yards. I do like round balls too so this is not really a bad thing. Easy to cast and easy to load plus they just plain tickle my fancy. So. I suspect I will be doing some machining in the near future to make a rifled choke tube to suit a bore size round ball.

Longbow