38 Specials- more speed with nickle cases?

[broomhandle]

Hi Guys,

A pal of mine loaded 200 (38Special) cases, 100 each with the same bullet seating depth & powder load.
Using his new Cronograph he discovered, that he gets a higher speed & more uniform groups with nickle cases over brass. both were polished & cleaned at the same time.
He asked me if I ever notice this with my 38 loads. Sadly, I never cronoed my 38 loads.
I usually pick the accurace load on the page & call it good!

Have any of you seen this while checking your loads?

Thanks for any thoughts on this subject,
broomhandle

[Mk42gunner]

Do his nickel cases have a smaller internal volume?

I have not loaded enough nickel plated cases to test this theory since I got my first chronograph several years ago.

Robert

[btroj]

Ok, how much more?

How many rounds of each did he chronograph? Were the cases all the same make? Did each case have the same number of firings on them? Were they all trimmed to the same length? All bullets from same batch?

I have a feeling it may be a situation where the difference isn't statistically significant. Always account for variables that can cause minor changes in velocity.

[Sasquatch-1]

Could it be possible that the yellow and nickel plate take the crimp differently? And did he make sure they were all trimmed to the same length? Different length, different crimp, different speed.

[Wal']

If you can find some red cases they might even get to go faster..........sorry couldn't help myself. ;)

But I'm with btroj here, to many variables or there is with my chronograph & past calculations.

[nicholst55]

If you can find some red cases they might even get to go faster..........sorry couldn't help myself. ;)

But I'm with btroj here, to many variables or there is with my chronograph & past calculations.

It might prove to be an interesting experiment, but the number of rounds that would have to be loaded, fired, recorded and then analyzed in order to prove or disprove this theory would be staggering - and very expensive!

[smkummer]

Way too many variables. But here are a couple others that more often than not are true: 1. Lead bullets either give lower pressure or can be pushed faster than jacketed. 2. Colts shoot harder (higher velocity) than S&W often due to a tighter bore and higher pressure. I know I am going to hear about the later.

[Bret4207]

There's absolutely no reason I can think of that cases that are otherwise the same (volume, length, anneal, etc.) would give different readings. I'm confident in saying it's not the nickle itself causing any difference but rather internal volume, length, anneal or something else causing this, if it's a real difference at all.

[Larry Gibson]

There's absolutely no reason I can think of that cases that are otherwise the same (volume, length, anneal, etc.) would give different readings. I'm confident in saying it's not the nickle itself causing any difference but rather internal volume, length, anneal or something else causing this, if it's a real difference at all.

+1.

Also need to know the sample size (# of shots of each) and what the exact difference was. Also the test run under the same conditions during the same test session more than once (would need minimum of 7 separate tests for assurance) with the nickeled cases giving the higher velocity each time? If not and the difference is small then the difference probably falls within the normal mean average variation of 2 identical load tests.

Larry Gibson

[Fomdiddle]

Interesting..........I just bought two batches of once fired 300wsm brass. one brass and one nickel. I think I'll chrono some and alternate to account for barrel heating and such. Fom

[paul h]

That's an interesting observation, and as we know, if you change any component in a handload it can have an affect on the pressure and hence velocity.I've never chronoed nickle plated vs. plane brass back to back with an identicle load, but I'm not suprised that there was a difference. As to why, I can only guess that for some reason the nickle cases produce more tension on the bullet. Either due to thicker case walls from the coating, stiffer case walls from the coating, or more friction on the inside of the case. I do know that when I size nickle cases I can feel a difference and they seem "stiffer" if that makes any sense.

The one thing I don't like about nickle cases is that unlike brass cases, when a nickle case spilts it's not a small split at the case mouth. The split extends anywhere from 1/2 way down the case to all the way to the web of the case. So the nickle plating definately affects the physical properties of the brass.

[Sensai]

Interesting, I'd like to know what the actual measured volumes of the two different types of cases are. Just ponderin', but do any of you know if the brass thickness of the nickle plated cases is the same as the plain brass cases? Anybody have both types and a tubing micrometer handy? Inquiring minds want to know, but not enough to buy nickle plated brass! :grin:

[Janoosh]

It is possible that the nickled brass is thicker, thus there is the possibility that the loaded cartridge is wider, minutely, and that the cartridge upon firing is gripping the chamber walls sooner, thus sealing the chamber sooner, and allowing more pressure to propel the boolit. I agree with a LOT more testing, and I'm just thinking out loud.

[broomhandle]

Hi Fellows,

Thanks for the replys! I sent him the thread address, we will get back to you with more facts.

Best to all,
Broomhandle

[Sasquatch-1]

I notice one major problem that was omitted...Barrel fowling. If the nickel was fired first and left leading in the barrel that could account for some of the decrease in speed. As mentioned earlier, waaaay to many variables.

[Garyshome]

I just might do a test of my own on this issue. As soon as I get a chance.

[shoot-n-lead]

Slower or not...I much prefer brass.

[bedbugbilly]

Interesting thread . . . . I'm just curious though . . . if the nickel starts to wear off the case from being reloaded a number of times . . . will that slow down the bullet? Sorry . . . couldn't help myself . . . .

[btroj]

I notice one major problem that was omitted...Barrel fowling. If the nickel was fired first and left leading in the barrel that could account for some of the decrease in speed. As mentioned earlier, waaaay to many variables.

Barrel fowling is a real problem. Improperly lubed chickens and undersized turkeys will leave so much feather residue that it can't be good.:lol:

[Sasquatch-1]

OK, I expect to see you by noon today to clean the coffee off my monitor. I am getting tired of doing it myself when it is not my fault. :veryconfu



Barrel fowling is a real problem. Improperly lubed chickens and undersized turkeys will leave so much feather residue that it can't be good.:lol:

[btroj]

Add sugar to the coffee and leave it there as a sticky!

Sorry, I couldn't resist a good fowling joke

[6bg6ga]

Standards and tolerances come into play. I would believe the brass specifications would be very tight so that we don't blow our fool heads off. Now, 100fpc isn't anything and can probably be explained by variation in the load/powder/bullet weight/seating depth/ and so forth. Probably NOT a factor of a nickle plated case vers a brass case in my opinion. I would have to pull the BS cord on this one. Have shot my share of both nickle plated brass and brass cases.

[bhn22]

I been thinking about this, and may have an answer. One thing I've noticed about nickel cases are that they tend to "grab" the case expander/flaring insert a little tighter than brass cases do. It's really evident with my Dillon and nickel cases. 9 mickeymeter is especially bad, and requires enough effort that I segregate them because they screw up my rhythm. Anyway, I've come to the conclusion that nickel cases must be rougher internally, and that nickel doesn't have brass' natural lubricity. This could translate into higher bullet pull, which in turn causes chamber pressures to be a bit higher. This could very well cause slightly higher velocities. This could be more pronounced with jacketed bullets than cast, which as we know are faster through the bore because of lower friction.

[ironhead7544]

I have noticed that the nickel +P+ 38 Special cases seem thicker. I weighed them and found they are 7.0 grains heavier. Smaller case volume could mean slightly higher pressure. Crimp can also effect velocity and if the nickel cases have more bullet pull it could make a small difference.

[Bret4207]

I have noticed that the nickel +P+ 38 Special cases seem thicker. I weighed them and found they are 7.0 grains heavier. Smaller case volume could mean slightly higher pressure. Crimp can also effect velocity and if the nickel cases have more bullet pull it could make a small difference.

Thicker and heavier than what? The only way that comparison in valid is if you can get the same brand, made about the same time, +P+ brass and nickle and compare. Comparing +P+ Rem nickle and Fed WC brass isn't go to tell you much as far as the original question goes.

[NSP64]

How about the nickel cases don't expand to fill the chamber as fast, thus increasing the pressure.

[btroj]

I still want to know HOW MUCH faster?

If the average was 15 fps faster over 5 shots then it means nothing. Heck, unless it is 50 fps faster over a 20 round string average then I don't think it is significant.

[Char-Gar]

There may have been differences in the performance of the loads but it had nothing to do with the nickel on the brass. Rethink the issue, as the wrong conclusion was reached.

[thebigmac]

There may have been differences in the performance of the loads but it had nothing to do with the nickel on the brass. Rethink the issue, as the wrong conclusion was reached.


Methinks you fellers are "beating a dead horse". HOWEVER,
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!!
I am a Charter Life Member of Maryland Police Combat Asso.
and as such I have shot next to the best of the best--"The US
Secret Service Presidental Protection Unit" These guys spend a hell
of a lot on the range. To achive these scores they were VERY
perticular about the ammo they use.
Their scores; many, many 1500's, I never seen them go below
1497.
They would never mix brass when reloading. They have always
said there was difference 'tween brass & nickle plated.
Nickle plated was made for higher velosities Where they would be exposed to the weather.(?).For Law enforcement;
Home defence; hunting etc. Plain brass was made for "practice"
Brass shells are made
from brass.(agreed so far). Then, if needed, other brass is made
for nickle plating. This brass has thicker walls, to endure the higher
velositiesneeded for their performance. This plating WILL make a
difference, along with the heavier brass. Therefore the interior,
when reloadd, will shrink. Very small, but enough to make 9's
on the target..
I also heve been Team Captain (ret) of the Baltimore Police Dep't.
for over 25 years. Even these novices have told of the difference.

As I said before, the difference is miniscule, but GOOD bullseye
shooters know....
All is my 2 cents worth.

thebigmac

[btroj]

Ok, you are speaking accuracy, not velocity.

I don't doubt that mixing brass would destroy accuracy potential for target shooting. Most of us will never notice that difference. Extrapolating target shooting needs to general shooting doesn't always work well.

The OP said the nickel brass gave higher velocity. I want to know how much higher. Was the difference relevant?

[Char-Gar]

Methinks you fellers are "beating a dead horse". HOWEVER,
THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!!
I am a Charter Life Member of Maryland Police Combat Asso.
and as such I have shot next to the best of the best--"The US
Secret Service Presidental Protection Unit" These guys spend a hell
of a lot on the range. To achive these scores they were VERY
perticular about the ammo they use.


Their scores; many, many 1500's, I never seen them go below
1497.
They would never mix brass when reloading. They have always
said there was difference 'tween brass & nickle plated.
Nickle plated was made for higher velosities Where they would be exposed to the weather.(?).For Law enforcement;
Home defence; hunting etc. Plain brass was made for "practice"
Brass shells are made
from brass.(agreed so far). Then, if needed, other brass is made
for nickle plating. This brass has thicker walls, to endure the higher
velositiesneeded for their performance. This plating WILL make a
difference, along with the heavier brass. Therefore the interior,
when reloadd, will shrink. Very small, but enough to make 9's
on the target..
I also heve been Team Captain (ret) of the Baltimore Police Dep't.
for over 25 years. Even these novices have told of the difference.

As I said before, the difference is miniscule, but GOOD bullseye
shooters know....
All is my 2 cents worth.

thebigmac

Nickel plating of brass was originally to prevent the brass from reacting with the leather cartridge loops and forming verdigris.

Folks who shoot for ultimate accuracy with six guns do not mix different types of brass, but that is not restricted to plating vs non- plating.

The original question was, does nickel plating result in higher velocity. I think not, but I don't doubt that one lot of brass will result in slightly higher velocity than another, but the cause is something other than just the plating.

[broomhandle]

Hi Fellows,

Thanks for the replys! My pal is now watching the thread.
He is thinking about a little project to trim all cases & make a batch of 20 each & see what we get.
He is a IDPA type shooter, so he does not need serious Bullseye loads or preformance.
Some variables will be controlled.
A thought ! Will all the cases be once fires or more, will that affect the out come?
My little brain is in pain thinking about it! AAH!

Best to all,
broomhandle

[Char-Gar]

Hi Fellows,

Thanks for the replys! My pal is now watching the thread.
He is thinking about a little project to trim all cases & make a batch of 20 each & see what we get.
He is a IDPA type shooter, so he does not need serious Bullseye loads or preformance.
Some variables will be controlled.
A thought ! Will all the cases be once fires or more, will that affect the out come?
My little brain is in pain thinking about it! AAH!

Best to all,
broomhandle

The test will only yield good data IF all cases are the same make and have the same wall thickness, lot of brass, fired the same number of times and internal capacity, which is not likely to be the case in your scenario. At the end of you test, you can say which case does what, but you can't say why it does it.

[Win94ae]

Fallacy: Confusing Cause and Effect (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/confusing-cause-and-effect.html)


Description of Confusing Cause and Effect

Confusing Cause and Effect is a fallacy that has the following general form:

A and B regularly occur together.
Therefore A is the cause of B.

This fallacy requires that there is not, in fact, a common cause that actually causes both A and B.

I have a load for my 357 that use both types of cases; the extreme spread of a mixed batch is 5fps.... they are Federal cases.

[Bret4207]

Have him buy 100 each of the same make then trim and load, etc. Even then the internal volume may differ so I don't know if you can find an easy way to do an accurate test.

[bhn22]

I would never trim nickel cases. Trimming leaves a raw edge at the case mouth, and that's one way flaking starts.

[robertbank]

Before your friend spends copious amounts of time and money he might want to consider these results shot over a F1 Chrony.
High Low ES Avg Sd
.38 Spl Unique 5.4 150 Lyman 358477 358 D 1.470 Win 907 802 105 877 22
.38 Spl Unique 5.4 150 Lyman 358477 358 U 1.470 Win 1022 935 87 987 16

D stands for Down, U stands for up reflecting the position of the barrel prior to taking the shot in a level position.

.38 Spl Bullseye 4.0 170 Lyman 358429 358 1.546 Win 896 827 69 862 13
.38 Spl Bullseye 4.0 170 Lyman 358429 358 1.546 Win 902 873 29 885 6

.38 Spl+P Clays 3.5 160 RCBS RN 358 1.470 CCI 841 805 36 819 6
.38 Spl+P Clays 3.5 160 RCBS RN 358 1.470 CCI 846 800 46 827 9

Each set of loads shot on the same day using the same gun and represent 10 shot strings using once fired brass of the same manufacture. In each case one string is faster or slower than the other depending on the cup being half empty or half full. As some of the folks have asked, How much faster?" The stats come from my reloading spreadsheet. After 478 strings of 10 = 4,780 rds shot over the F1 Chrony over the four seasons I can say without to much hesitation that if their is a meaningful difference in velocity from one type of brass to another I have seen no evidence of it or evidence that would cause me to believe this other than what I consider normal expected variations due to more variables than my grey cells can fathom.

Take Care

Bob