2400 loads in a .38 Spec ( not P+)

[JWFilips]

Just a question for those that may know:
Are there good usable loads for cast boolits (150-158gr) range using 2400 powder in a .38 Special?
I use a lot of 2400 in my 357 mags but I was wondering if it is worth the effort to work up loads ( upper end but non P+) for a .38 Special with soft hp boolits Or am I in for just a lot of unburnt residue?

[Outpost75]

#2400 is not suitable for standard pressure. 38 Special loads. Before SAAMI went to piezoelectric transducers for pressure measurement, Speer published some +P data in manual No.10

[MarkP]

From Alliant Complimentary Guide87316

[Outpost75]

Based on my own experimentation using #2400 of current production, I believe that the listed loads from the 1995 brochure above would probably result in erratic ignition and undesirable amounts of unburned powder which would jam up a revolver mechanism.

I don't know what the "special reloading precautions" referenced on p.63 are, but my experience has been that #2400 doesn't provide a clean burn until pressures exceed about 20,000 psi., which exceeds current industry +P standard, which is a clue as to why neither Speer nor Alliant publish non+P .38 Special loads with #2400 anymore.

[Larry Gibson]

#2400 is not suitable for standard pressure. 38 Special loads. Before SAAMI went to piezoelectric transducers for pressure measurement, Speer published some +P data in manual No.10

+1. I base that on actual pressure testing in a Contender barrel via Oehler M43 PBL. At standard .38 SPL pressures 2400 burns very poorly. Even at the top end 38/44 heavy loads with the 358156 seated out and crimped in the 2nd crimp groove 2400 doesn't start burning efficiently until top end loads are achieved well past +P 38 SPL pressures and into mid range 357 magnum pressures.

Use Bullseye or Unique or a similar burning powder for standard 38 SPL loads.

Larry Gibson

[JWFilips]

That is pretty much what I thought! However I saw some loads out there & thought I would ask. Well anyway I'm shooting about 3.6 gr Bullseye in my 150 gr custom HP boolit I was just wondering how fast I could bring it up ( safely) It is easier to carry my K frame Mod 15 around while hunting but I'm thinking well just suck it up for the extra weight & carry the boolit in 357 mag in my Mod 27 ( just in case I have a really violent & mad cottentail after me:lol:)

[bobthenailer]

Why burn all the extra grains of powder when its not needed to obtain top std pressure velocties . that can be reached with faster burning powders using about 1/2 as much powder

[EMC45]

Why burn all the extra grains of powder when its not needed to obtain top std pressure velocties . that can be reached with faster burning powders using about 1/2 as much powder

That's my sentiment with 2400. I like it, but I can use less Unique and get the speeds safely.

[paul h]

That is pretty much what I thought! However I saw some loads out there & thought I would ask. Well anyway I'm shooting about 3.6 gr Bullseye in my 150 gr custom HP boolit I was just wondering how fast I could bring it up ( safely) It is easier to carry my K frame Mod 15 around while hunting but I'm thinking well just suck it up for the extra weight & carry the boolit in 357 mag in my Mod 27 ( just in case I have a really violent & mad cottentail after me:lol:)

You should be able to get an easy 900 fps using unique, I've seen some data at right at or slightly under 1000 fps. I wouldn't hesitate to use a 150gr hp at 900 fps on small game or coyotes.

[fecmech]

If you look at the Lyman Cast handbook #3 you can see there is very little difference in top speeds of .38 spl bullets by going to slower powders. As a previous poster said Unique and BE will pretty much get you in the 850-900 fps range with standard weight bullets safely. Using 2400 will tie the gun up pretty quick if you don't eject cases straight down, unburned powder gets under the extractor star.

[bhn22]

Add me to the list with Outpost75 & Larry. I also noticed that it takes almost twice as much 2400 to equal Bullseye velocities. If 2400 is the only powder you have, there's not much choice, it'll work until almost anything else comes along.

As an aside, I sure miss those old Hercules reloading guides. Now all their data panders to other corporate divisions like Speer. No fair!

[Tim357]

Funny you all talking about 2400 and the .38 Special. Ran across some chrono data that I'll share.
All boolits are Lee 158 RNFP, cases are Fiocchi, primers are CCI 500. Barrels are 3" Ruger SP 101 and 4" SW 686.
1st load:
5.0 Unique Ruger 861 avg
SW. 882 avg
5.5 Unique. 946 avg
985 avg

5.4 Power Pistol. 888 avg
903 avg
6.0 Power Pistol. 970 avg
994 avg

10.0 2400. 888 avg
912 avg

And just because I could, I tried some old time Skeeter-type loads.
Lyman 357446, seated to crimp in second lube groove, 12.5 gr 2400, CCI 500 primer. Same barrels.

Ruger 1158 avg
S&W. 1219 avg

[smkummer]

What Tim357 proved is that Unique does what 2400 does at almost 1/2 the powder in 38 special and these loads are well above SAMMI standard spec.. Enough said.

[JWFilips]

The data is very interesting however I would like to see where the faster powder pressures are at for the equivalent speeds. Again my pistol is an old model 15 S&W and not a P+

I'm sure that where I have been all along is adequate (3.6 gr BE with the 150 gr HP boolit) I think If I'm going to be skirting the higher end of the pressure spectrum I will just carry my .357 mag I know I can turn HPs inside out this that one but the 15 is just so easy to carry.

[Char-Gar]

When the shooting gods gathered on some mountain top, they decreed that Bulleye should be the powder of choice for standard velocity loads in the 38 Special. It is not a good idea to jack with something that is "ordained from on high". You don't want to lay down any bad karma....dude!

[JWFilips]

Char-Gar..... I think you may be correct!;)

[Larry Gibson]

The data is very interesting however I would like to see where the faster powder pressures are at for the equivalent speeds. Again my pistol is an old model 15 S&W and not a P+

I'm sure that where I have been all along is adequate (3.6 gr BE with the 150 gr HP boolit) I think If I'm going to be skirting the higher end of the pressure spectrum I will just carry my .357 mag I know I can turn HPs inside out this that one but the 15 is just so easy to carry.

SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the standard 38 SPL load is 17,000 psi (transducer/strain gauge). For +P 38 SPL it is 20,000 psi.

Test machine; Oehler M43 PBL
Test barrel; Contender 7.94”
Sights; Burris 2x scope
Cases; R-P 38 SPL
Primers; WSP
Bullet; 358477 cast of COWWs +2% tin, 150 gr sized at .358 and lubed with BAC
All tests; 10 shots
Velocities corrected to muzzle by M43
Accuracy tested at 25 yards; excellent 1.5” or less, good 1.5 – 2.5”, Usable 2.5 – 3.5, poor 3.5” +

Standard 38 SPL load; 4 gr Bullseye; 1009 fps, 16,200 psi(M43)
Super low ES and SD with superb accuracy**

+p+ with 5.5 gr Unique; 1103 fps, 19,300 psi(M43)
Excellent ES and SD and excellent accuracy

+P++ with 6 gr Unique; 1199 fps, 25,200 psi(M43)
Excellent ES and SD with usable accuracy

8 gr Alliant 2400; 890 fps, 10,800 psi(M43)
Very poor large ES and SD, poor accuracy and lots of unburned powder to clog under extractor

9 gr Alliant 2400; 1014 fps, 13,200 psi(M43)
Very poor large ES and SD, poor accuracy and lots of unburned powder to clog under extractor

10 gr Alliant 2400; 1065 fps, 15,000 psi(M43)
Very poor large ES and SD, usable accuracy and still lots of unburned powder to clog under extractor

11 gr Alliant 2400; 1263 fps, 20,300 psi(M43)
Very poor large ES and SD, good accuracy and just starting to burn efficiently, still a lot of unburned powder

12 gr Alliant 2400; 1373 fps, 24,800 psi(M43)
Good ES and SD, good accuracy and little unburned powder

12.5 gr Alliant 2400; 1410 fps, 25,500 psi(M43)
Good ES and SD, good accuracy and hardly any unburned powder

13 gr Alliant 2400; 1458 fps, 27,100 psi(M43)
Excellent ES and SD, good accuracy and no unburned powder

13.5 gr Alliant 2400; 1516 fps, 28,100 psi(M43)
Good ES and SD, good accuracy and no unburned powder



Factory reference ammunition also tested;
38 SPL;

Winchester 38 SPL 158 gr LSWCHP +P; 1046 fps, 17,900 psi(M43)
Very good ES and SD with good accuracy

Speer 158 gr LSWC; 901 FPS, 15,600 psi(M43)
Excellent ES and SD with usable accuracy

Remington 158 gr LRN; 887 fps, 14,600 fps
Excellent ES and SD with good accuracy

Winchester 158 gr LRN; 901 fps, 15,200 psi(M43)
Excellent ES and SD with very good accuracy

357 Magnum

Remington 158 LSWC; 1475 fps, 25,100 psi(M43)
Excellent ES and SD, usable accuracy

Federal 158 LSWC; 1476 fps, 28,500 psi(M43)
Excellent ES and SD, Excellent accuracy

S&W 158 LSWC; 1491 fps, 29,200 psi(M43)
Excellent ES and SD, excellent accuracy

**I highly recommend this load. I use it in my own M15 and have shot several thousand at least. It is an excellent load and below the SAAMI MAP for the standard 38 SPL load.

Larry Gibson

[JWFilips]

Wow Larry, That is what I call some nice data. I'm going to save this for sure in 38 special handloading files.

One question: on the bottom part you list .357 Mag How does this fit in with the above .38 spec Data? Am I missing something?

[Larry Gibson]

Wow Larry, That is what I call some nice data. I'm going to save this for sure in 38 special handloading files.

One question: on the bottom part you list .357 Mag How does this fit in with the above .38 spec Data? Am I missing something?

I listed the 357 factory magnum data to show the 12 - 13.5 gr 2400 loads in the 38 SPL case were getting right up into magnum psi range......probably not good for medium frame S&Ws like the M15 in question.

Larry Gibson

[Tim357]

Thank you Larry Gibson, for the pressure data. The loads I chrono'd were fired in .357s, so no worries on my end. I've always been curious re: the Unique loads of yore for a .38Spl chambered revolver. The Power Pistol loads came from Alliant's data. Both are published max for the 38 and the 38+ P. JWFilips, if you are looking for top-end 38 non-plusP loads, I would think the 5.4 PP load would work for you.

[Larry Gibson]

Tim

I'm not looking for a +P load. I've been using 5.5 gr Unique under a soft cast 358477 or 358156 in my M15 since the Mid '70s. Works perfectly and if the 38 SPL revolver is +P rated and no harm is done. I posted the test loads at JWFilip's request.

Larry Gibson

[ddixie884]

Boy this is good stuff............

[Outpost75]

Relating back to the OP and the S&W Model 19 in particular. When the Model 19 first came out, it was the prevailing practice for police officers to carry .38 Special +P or .357 Magnum (if authorized) and to use standard pressure .38 Special ammunition for practice. The Model 19 was never designed or intended to digest a steady diet of full power .357 loads. My own experience with several Model 19s I have owned, is that when .38 Special +P ammunition (NOT +P+) is used in a 1:5 ratio with standard pressure .38 Specials, the gun will last a very long time before armourer service is required.

Recommended practice in the 1970s was to inspect revolvers at each annual requalification. Build practice for new revolvers at the time was for cylinder gap to pass 0.004 and hold 0.006 with 0.002" max. end shake. End shake was corrected by stretching the crane arbor with a rounded knurling tool similar to a tubing cutter, with its cutting edge ground to a full 1/32" knurled radius, while the interior of the crane arbor was supported with a tight fitting section of polished drill rod. This would reduce the end play, but would also increase cylinder gap as the cylinder was forced back. The K-frame top strap will stretch with heavy use of magnum ammunition and eventual setback is unavoidable. When .357 Magnum ammunition was used exclusively, correcting end shake would have to be done after about 1000 rounds, whereas with a 1:10 ratio of .357 to .38 Special guns would stay tight for about 2500-3000 rounds, and if used exclusively with .38 Special 1:5 ratio of +P to standard pressure guns would last 3500+ rounds before requiring armourer adjustments or parts replacement.

The L frame revolver was developed to improve durability of revolvers intended to be used exclusively with .38 Special +P, the Q4070 +P+ US Treasury load and .357 Magnum ammunition. Once Federal agencies starting using duty ammunition for practice and qualification, Government orders required sampling revolvers from production and subjecting them to a 5000 round endurance test, which the gun had to pass with no malfunctions and no parts replacement. The M19 could not meet this standard with .357 ammunition, but did with ordinary .38 Special +P (not Q4070) and the fixed sight Model 13 and later L frames in .38 Special did. For those unfamiliar, the Q4070 load was a "hot" loaded 110-grain JHP with serrated jacket and deep hollow base, loaded to pressures which exceeded industry +P standards by about 15%. It was intended for use in .357 guns only, and when used in the S&W Model 10 and Model 15, durability of the guns suffered greatly.

Under normal conditions the crane can be stretched twice before cylinder gap enlarges to the 0.008" maximum. At that point the gun needs to be returned to the factory for rebarrelling or recylindering and by that time replacement lockwork parts will be needed to keep the gun in time, because the hand will have been stretched previously and the cylinder stop battered by cylinder backspin in firing magnum loads. Indeed, I have seen locking bolt notches peened such that the cylinder required replacement!

When guns were sent to the factory for rebuild we had them fitted with 6 inch barrels and retired them as PPC revolver "leg match" guns to be used with standard pressure ammunition only, and thoise guns would never go back out on the street.

Rugers don't have this problem....

[Char-Gar]

Just a little tale about the Smith and Wesson Model 19 (Combat Magnum). The first one of these I ever saw, held and shot was on the Rio Grande River about 1958 or so. It came out of the holster of Bill Jordan. He and another Border Patrolman rolled up on me as I was shooting at an old smugglers crossing called "Las Prietas". I knew Jordan from our skeet shooting club and he joined in some pistol shooting using the Republic of Mexico as a backstop.

He dropped the loads from his revolver, which were some furiously hot hollow points (358156) backed up by a large does of 2400. These were the same loads he had on his belt slide. He retrieved from the Jeep, some goverment issue 38 Special target wadcutters for our shooting session.

So even the father of the Combat Magnum knew better than to plink and practice with full snort magnum loads. The Model 19 is one of my favorite all time sixguns, but I plink and practice with standard pressure 38 Specials. Mine is a 1966 vintage handgun, and it has seen less than a box of magnum loads.

[MSD MIke]

In 38 Special with a jacketed 158 Grain Hornady XTP I haveused 9.5 grains of 2400 for about 950 FPS (4'' Model 10) with good results and accuracy.
With lead bullets I have never been able to get satisfactoryresults at standard 38 special levels. ExtremeSD with tons of unburned powder.

Thanks,
Mike

[ddixie884]

Still, good stuff...........

[35remington]

Back when I was a new handloader I combined a middleish charge of 2400 listed in Lyman's 45th intended for a 158 and substituted Lee's now discontinued sorta needle nosed 166 SWC which seats notably deeper in the case. Wasn't thinking about that much at the time.

The only smart thing I did was load only a few of them. I touched them off and l will note they were kinda clean burning. The revolver was rated for Plus P but the unaccustomed level of recoil persuaded me I was doing something inadvisable.

Sometimes I am of the opinion that cleanish burning at the low end of the range is aided by having a bullet a tad larger than the cylinder throats and find this true in the Auto Rim also.

[smoked turkey]

This is indeed a wealth of information on loading the 38 special & 357. I intend to print most of this information so it is handy for reference. I think this thread qualifies to be a "sticky" so it is readily available. Good stuff.