Casting for .223/5.56

[zubrato]

I am considering casting for this caliber, and I had a few questions for more experienced reloaders out there regarding this particular endeavor.
I've done my fair share of reading for about a week now, but I still have to ask the dreaded question: Is it worth it?
The only reason I'm considering doing so is for plinking ammo, and shooting steel targets within 100 yards from an AR platform.
But it seems to be a little excessive to cull, separate by grain, lube, gas-check, size, lube every projectile if I'm going to be using it for plinking..

Next is cost. I use Lee molds because they're cheap, effective, and quality, but I could see dishing out 100 for a quality 5 cavity NOE mold, but not anytime soon.

I have a 1/7 CL barrel, so I'm looking to cast in the 65-70gr boolit range for accuracy purposes. Even though I'm having a bear of a time finding load data, I know I won't be rocking full power loads, nor looking for 223 factory recoil. But realistically, are we looking at just barely cycling the action?

Side note:
Why does Lee no longer produce .224 molds, I see they have a .225 push through sizer, which I would most likely purchase.

[leadman]

Midsouth Shooting Supply has Lee make them the special order Bator 22 cal. molds.
I shoot alot of cast in my Contender 223 Rem. and have tried them in my son's AR 1/8 barrel with very good results. I cast the Lyman 45gr RN GC and coat them with Hi-Tek coating. The boolits are cast of linotype as this produces the best and easiest results for me.
If you can buy a 4 to 6 cavity mold it would speed up the process. I think there is a vendor here that has a 62? gr boolit mold that he produces.
I haven't tried them yet with the Hi-Tek coating and no gas check but hope to do this soon. The gcs really slow down the boolit making process.

[Three44s]

I sort my boolits into three piles generally:

One for the perfect ones, a second for not so perfect and the last for re-melting.

The not so perfect are for initial load work up to get around a working pressure before I start "burning" my perfect casts.

They can just as easily be used for dirt clod breakers. ........... It's your baby!

Of course the goal is that as you get more in tune with casting and your particular mold, alloy and casting pot ........ you'll increase the percentage of "perfects" and near perfects.

Best regards

Three 44s

[Larry Gibson]

Check NOE, they have a nice 70 gr mould which is the one best suited for 7" twist .223s. Load data is simple, Use H4895. Start at 14 gr and work up in 1/2 gr increments, also using a 1/2 gr Dacron filler, to just 100% functional reliability. That will probably be in the 16 - 19 gr range but can be lower or slightly higher depending on your rifle. Best accuracy with your 7" twist will no doubt be at functional reliability.

Larry Gibson

[el34]

Check NOE, they have a nice 70 gr mould which is the one best suited for 7" twist .223s. Load data is simple, Use H4895. Start at 14 gr and work up in 1/2 gr increments, also using a 1/2 gr Dacron filler, to just 100% functional reliability. That will probably be in the 16 - 19 gr range but can be lower or slightly higher depending on your rifle. Best accuracy with your 7" twist will no doubt be at functional reliability.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry, perfect timing. I just got my first AR, a Sig M400 also with 7" twist. I bought 200 rds of M193 ammo and plan to cast/PC from there on. It hasn't been obvious what the 'go to' mold is, I'll take your advice for that and the load workup.

Do you have any experience with powdercoating and leaving off the GC on 22's?

I'm new to NOE- will Lee handles fit? I'm looking at the 5 cavity 70gr RN.

[Wayne S]

Thanks Larry, perfect timing. I just got my first AR, a Sig M400 also with 7" twist. I bought 200 rds of M193 ammo and plan to cast/PC from there on. It hasn't been obvious what the 'go to' mold is, I'll take your advice for that and the load workup.

Do you have any experience with powdercoating and leaving off the GC on 22's?

I'm new to NOE- will Lee handles fit? I'm looking at the 5 cavity 70gr RN.

Lee 6 cavity mold handles are what the NOE molds require, better look again at the NOE "catalog" only 3 cavities are still available. read up on "M" dies, my preference is RCBS because Lyman dosen't bell the case mouth enough, BUT having said that, if you has any die larger that for a 223, then contact "BUCKSHOT" here and have him make you an M die plug to fit you dies de capping stem.
You should slug your weapons throat, there should be a "stickie" here on that. that measurement will give you the Dia. to size your bullets.
I have yet to see proof that PC bullets are as accurate as conventionally lubed bullets, so you decide, how much work [time] you want to invest ??

[bretNorCal]

Because some people do not know that there is a difference between .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO which is more important to know some of the differences if you are handloading I will include this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG5jAJx7mr4



As far as "is it worth it" it depends on what you expect to get out of it. There is the cost part of it, it may or may not be cheaper. There is the hobby part of it, some people enjoy casting. There is the availability part of it, are you able to get ammo (for a reasonable price)?

[Larry Gibson]

Got to say that video has just about every myth one can find on the internet about the "differences" between the 5.56 and .226 cartridges and chambers.

Watch the first 3 minutes (if you can stand staying with it that long) and every single point he makes is undocumented and a common myth....examples;

Cases .002 shorter on 5.56....where did he get that? I have measured enough 5.56 and factory 223 cases to know the oal of the cases all fall with in the +/- for the cartridge. And even if the 5.56 case is really .002" shorter what difference does that make considering the milspec chamber length is longer than a SAAMI spec chamber. Where did this myth come from.........

Brass is thicker on 5.56 case so psi with same load can be dangerous in 5.56 case vs 223 case. Too many of us have know this is just not true. I have some Rem and Fed cases that are heavier (i.e. thicker) than numerous LC cases. This myth has been disproven so many times.........

M855 bullets have a "steel core"....huh? M855 bullets have a lead core with a small steel penetrator up front. Very poor on checking his "facts"..........

223 Rem is loaded to 50k CUP and 5.56 is loaded to 60k CUP. Classic case of mixing apples and oranges and not checking his facts. He is comparing the old CUP of the 223 with the US used case mouth transducer PSI measurement for the 5.56. Using the same peizo-tranducer measurement for both we find the SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the .223 is 55,000 psi and the 5.56 NATO (both M193 and M855) is 60,000 psi. Yes the 5.56 does generally have a couple thousand higher psi (I have measured the psi a lot of both types of ammunition) But M193 and M855 does not generally exceed the psi strength of modern firearms. If you have a bolt action or AR that regularly is chambered in .308W or any magnum cartridge then it is quite capable of handling the potential 60K psi of M193 or M855 ammunition. The MAP for the .308W is 60k psi and the magnums are most often 62 - 64k psi. So just how is firing a 60k psi 5.56 cartridge in an action designed for it supposed to be dangerous?

The video goes on and on ad nauseum with more myths............if the lie is told often enough it becomes the truth.............but still a myth.

Larry Gibson

[NWFLYJ]

Shortly after the rise of the blogosphere Abraham Lincoln hosted a dinner party at his Cabin Estate and birthplace in Hodgenville, Kentucky.After this dinner Abraham Lincoln read from his unpublished memoir: A Humble Man's Advice For Life in the Information Age. By the fireside he read many portions, but the section that most impressed his guests was this one, simple sentence:"The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot confirm their validity."

[grampa243]

here is a good thread to check out it's mostly about loaded HM2's 62grain boolit but info that you can learn form..

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?205195-loading-HM²-223-AR-mold-225-62-1

it's deer season for most of us so the theard is slow right now, but more testing to come after hunting is done.

P.S. I'm getting my loads together for just under 12cents each. and geting 22mag profromace from them and a 1:8 barrel.

[Mumblypeg]

Larry, I could not agree with you more ! I have fooled with .223/5.56mm since it hit the market and have the same findings as you......

[runfiverun]

here's my findings between the 223 and the 5.56 when it comes to cast.
it don't matter.
do an impact slug of the throat and find the boolit diameter/shape that best matches what you see from the slug.
also the nose shape is what guides the boolit into alignment into the barrel.

if you don't want to put out much effort to get results.
then the ar platform especially and the small bores in general are not going to be your thing.
go to the store and buy some hornady 55 gr fmj's and have fun.

[LynC2]

Got to say that video has just about every myth one can find on the internet about the "differences" between the 5.56 and .226 cartridges and chambers.

Watch the first 3 minutes (if you can stand staying with it that long) and every single point he makes is undocumented and a common myth....examples;

"snip"
The video goes on and on ad nauseum with more myths............if the lie is told often enough it becomes the truth.............but still a myth.

Larry Gibson

Larry nailed it! I totally agree. :drinks:

[aspangler]

Got to say that video has just about every myth one can find on the internet about the "differences" between the 5.56 and .226 cartridges and chambers.

Watch the first 3 minutes (if you can stand staying with it that long) and every single point he makes is undocumented and a common myth....examples;

Cases .002 shorter on 5.56....where did he get that? I have measured enough 5.56 and factory 223 cases to know the oal of the cases all fall with in the +/- for the cartridge. And even if the 5.56 case is really .002" shorter what difference does that make considering the milspec chamber length is longer than a SAAMI spec chamber. Where did this myth come from.........

Brass is thicker on 5.56 case so psi with same load can be dangerous in 5.56 case vs 223 case. Too many of us have know this is just not true. I have some Rem and Fed cases that are heavier (i.e. thicker) than numerous LC cases. This myth has been disproven so many times.........

M855 bullets have a "steel core"....huh? M855 bullets have a lead core with a small steel penetrator up front. Very poor on checking his "facts"..........

223 Rem is loaded to 50k CUP and 5.56 is loaded to 60k CUP. Classic case of mixing apples and oranges and not checking his facts. He is comparing the old CUP of the 223 with the US used case mouth transducer PSI measurement for the 5.56. Using the same peizo-tranducer measurement for both we find the SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the .223 is 55,000 psi and the 5.56 NATO (both M193 and M855) is 60,000 psi. Yes the 5.56 does generally have a couple thousand higher psi (I have measured the psi a lot of both types of ammunition) But M193 and M855 does not generally exceed the psi strength of modern firearms. If you have a bolt action or AR that regularly is chambered in .308W or any magnum cartridge then it is quite capable of handling the potential 60K psi of M193 or M855 ammunition. The MAP for the .308W is 60k psi and the magnums are most often 62 - 64k psi. So just how is firing a 60k psi 5.56 cartridge in an action designed for it supposed to be dangerous?

The video goes on and on ad nauseum with more myths............if the lie is told often enough it becomes the truth.............but still a myth.

Larry Gibson

A+ to that. I stayed with it for 8 minutes. All I could stand. You beat me to the rebutle.:smile:

[fcvan]

I have a bunch of 5.56 brass and a bunch of .223 brass of various manufacture. I do separate my brass by head stamp and keep it separated when loaded. Im mostly doing this to keep track of how many times my brass has been reloaded.

I'm not trying to shoot flies at 100 yards, I'm looking for 'minute of tin can' at 100 yards. I haven't loaded jacketed bullets in .223 for 21 years or so, and now cast my own. The Lyman 225-415 55 gr boolit, over 14 grains of 4227, right out of the Lyman manual, is listed as 23,200 cup. I'm pretty sure such low pressure is going to be less wear and tear on everything.

As far as running lube (White label BAC) or HF flat black PC velocity, I can't tell you right now as I haven't run them over the chronograph. That is on my list of things to do. I will say that my PC boolits seem to group smaller than the lubed boolits. I intend to sand bag and test this when I get to the range again. The book says 2200fps which is plenty fast enough to kill tin cans. At 9 cents a pop I'm more than happy with the results. Cost effective, reasonable accuracy, and I don't have to depend on a store to stock ammo I need. Sure, I had the same powder/primer supply issues this year as everyone else, but I had inventory of the powders and primers I use before it got silly. Casting for .223 makes too much sense for me and the kind of shooting I like to do.

[jmort]

"HM2's 62grain boolit"

Just got my mold and it is nice to say the least.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Hey ! B.Bub !. This is the place to find out where the cow bit the corn. And likely to your advantage too !

BvT

[zubrato]

Thank you for the load info and advice!
Sorry it took so long to reply, I don't come around here as often as I should, long clinic hours.
Don't get me wrong I love casting, and nothing makes my day like churning out boolits! A great poster on THR pay it forwarded me some cast 224 boolits and 224 sizer which intensifies my itch to cast for my AR. If you're here, then you know who you are and you're awesome!
I was thinking about it and I'm not here to compare pennies here and there, I love rolling and shooting my own, my latest passion that fuels my first which converts ammo into brass :)
I'll be away from home for a month doing an internship, so I can't try out loads or even slug my barrel (eventually will for peace of mind around the holidays..)
Do you all think sized to .224 is sufficient? I figured cast should be .001 over jacketed which is .224, but at the moment I'm just a noob who hasn't slugged his barrel yet.

[zubrato]

i slugged my bore today, and measured .224. Can I size and gascheck to .224 without leading?
I know the idea is to size .001 overbore, but is this a concern with gaschecks?
I also have a question, how come .22lr won't lead up an AR barrel? They're much smaller, in the neighborhood of .221, and not lubed as generously, with much softer lead..

[Larry Gibson]

My 225462s drop at .227 with my alloy. I use a .228 sizer to seat/crimp the GC (Hornady's) and lube them. They work fine in my ARs (3 of them).

Larry Gibson

[grampa243]

i slugged my bore today, and measured .224. Can I size and gascheck to .224 without leading?
I know the idea is to size .001 overbore, but is this a concern with gaschecks?
I also have a question, how come .22lr won't lead up an AR barrel? They're much smaller, in the neighborhood of .221, and not lubed as generously, with much softer lead..

.22LR does lead up my AR but my cast sized to .2255 don't(thinking about selling the CMMG conversion kit i have..)

i how size to .2269.. for my AR ( had a little more come off the sizer when i was plishing it then i planed but it still works)

[Gun_nut83]

I'm new to the forum and I've been cruising the powder coat topics and came across this one. I took it from everyone's comment on here that the video wasn't worth watching but I had a question so long as no one minds I piggyback off this one. I was told that running cast bullets through a weapon with a gas system lead the gas port......or is that another myth? And if it is true can that be solved by powder coating?

[freebullet]

Anything is possible, but that's not a concern too much unless your pushing the limits.