Savage #10-ML

[Maven]

All, One of our newest club members brought his Savage #10-ML to the range the other day to sight it in, prior to the opening of deer season next Saturday. I got to examine it and later read up on it on Randy Wakeman's website and learned that the reason it can use certain types of smokeless powder, only H/IMR 4227 and XMP 5744 as far as I know, is that the breech plug is hardened and the action tested to withstand 139k pressure*. After examining it, I was impressed by the sheer thickness of the receiver itself. As you know, it can use BP and BP substitutes, either pellets or loose, too. As it happens, our BP guru (competes at the national level with custom-built flintlocks) was present and was flabbergasted by the rifle. He was familiar with in-lines, but one that was loaded with smokeless powder, 5744 in this case, from the muzzle, astounded him. Our club member fired it 3 times: 2 of the three shots were within 2" of each other @ 100yds., but I think he and the rifle are capable of better accuracy than that. I'll say this, it didn't sound (or smell) like a BP rifle at all and left only a trace of smoke upon firing.


*Operating pressure, according to Wakeman, is 1/3 of 139k

[Buckshot]

......................Crap Paul! Next thing ya know they'll come up with some way to carry that powder around in a container that somehow fits in the gun without pouring it down the muzzle. You can bet when THAT happens I'll be one of the 1st in line to buy one and check it out. You might even be able to get several of those containers to have and reuse? Heh, heh :veryconfu

.................Buckshot

[Onlymenotu]

......................Crap Paul! Next thing ya know they'll come up with some way to carry that powder around in a container that somehow fits in the gun without pouring it down the muzzle. You can bet when THAT happens I'll be one of the 1st in line to buy one and check it out. You might even be able to get several of those containers to have and reuse? Heh, heh :veryconfu

.................Buckshot

:roll::roll:... * jeesh i guess you're going to want more than one shot..... with out having to stop and reload too......*

[Maven]

Actually, the #10-ML's owner carried pre-measured charges of powder* in a plastic 35mm film cannister (becoming rare these days) and just poured it down the bbl. Again, I was impressed by the massiveness of the gun's receiver, but I don't think I want one, mostly because it introduces too many variables that traditional ML's don't have to contend with. To wit, to get peak accuracy, you have to try various sabots with different bullets (both cast & j-word) and different brands of #209 primers. If you add two different types of smokeless powder to the testing, you'll be kept quite busy. Then there's BP, Pyro., 777, etc., but you get the picture. By contrast, in my 2 traditional ML's, all I have to monkey with is ball diameter, patch thickness and possibly powder charge (60 - 80grs. FFFg, FFg or Pyro. RS work well for target shooting).


*The owner wasn't sure whether it was 4227 or 5744, but it looked darker than I remember 4227 being, so I called it 5744 in yesterday's post.. Also, on Sunday as the weather wasn't calm enough for a trip to the range, I paid our local Gander Mt. a visit (talk about high prices!). I had just finished examining a #10-ML when a customer asked to purchase it. We chatted a bit, the gist of which was he thought the rifle could use ANY type of smokeless powder. I told him no, just H/IMR 4227 or XMP 5744. He then pulled out a scrap of paper to show me I was full of it: 4427 was written on it. Can you say clueless?

[ktw]

......................Crap Paul! Next thing ya know they'll come up with some way to carry that powder around in a container that somehow fits in the gun without pouring it down the muzzle.

The OTHER smokeless powder muzzleloader (Ultimate Muzzleloader) actually uses a 45 Win Mag case with a Large Rifle Magnum primer, rather than a 209 primer, for ignition. You can get replacement breech plugs for some of the standard inlines that allow you to use Small Rifle primers in a 25 ACP case for ignition.

Getting closer to a cartridge guns, one small step at a time...

-ktw

[charger 1]

h4198 works well if you got a tight .452 bullet in sabot,60-62 grains..
sr4759 works well. It was what wakeman originally promoted and I still use. The standard load in the orig savage data was 43 grs. and its still making one hole groups for me

[charger 1]

......................Crap Paul! Next thing ya know they'll come up with some way to carry that powder around in a container that somehow fits in the gun without pouring it down the muzzle. You can bet when THAT happens I'll be one of the 1st in line to buy one and check it out. You might even be able to get several of those containers to have and reuse? Heh, heh :veryconfu

.................Buckshot


Hey buck I was wondering should these containers be paper or brass? Well lets start with paper and see how it goes:kidding:

[Underclocked]

SMI makes smokeless conversions on a number of different rifles. Swing-loc is another smokeless variety as are the Bad Bulls.

I don't do smokeless. I have a .270 for that. I think smokeless is one BIG step too far.

Maven, both you and the customer you mention were off the mark a bit - the rifles can use quite a number of powders safely. The Savage recommended loads from their manual include V110, IMR-SR4759, and XMP5744 but there are other propellants proven safe in the rifle - cetainly not ALL smokeless powders though. The various Savage forums discuss a large number of possible loads and many have undergone considerable and convincing testing.

I don't even like the look of the rifles. (exception of some SMI conversions such as the Ruger #1) And, if you are too dern lazy to clean a rifle, you should stick to rimfires/centerfires and shoot a dirty gun.

http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/

http://www.swinglock.net/

http://www.badbullmuzzleloaders.com/html/index.html

Here's something else for you to ponder - http://www.mdm-muzzleloaders.com/NewThunderCharge.html

[Rattus58]

I like the flintlock version..... Idaho legal looking..... hehe

[Maven]

"And, if you are too dern lazy to clean a rifle, you should stick to rimfires/centerfires and shoot a dirty gun."

Underclocked, Thanks for the update on the powder choices for the Save #10-ML. Also, I hope you weren't referring to me in your statement above, as I made it quite clear in my post that I have no desire to own an in-line of any kind. I was merely admiring the technology that allows other options for shooters.

[Underclocked]

No, not at all - just expressing a general opinion of mine. Shouldn't do that I suppose. But it was in no way directed at you. I do own inlines and I think the argument of arc vs line is ludicrous. There I go again... ;)

[Maven]

Underclocked, Thanks for the clarification! (I hoped it wasn't directed at me.) Also, I'm not opposed to in-lines at all and am, in all honesty, tempted to purchase one (used). What holds me back, however, is the number of factors you have to juggle to get accuracy as well as the iffy condition of used barrels (I'm thinking of Joe B.'s experience with a CVA Hawken + what I've seen.) that have received less than TLC. You're right, some shooters don't clean their equipment as thoroughly as they should*, but I don't know whether they're lazy, just don't grasp what BP/Pyro. use entails, or if they just see ML's as a means of extending the deer season.


*I bought a used T/C Hawken (28" bbl., 1:48 twist) in ~100% condition at a gun show 20+ yrs. ago, but discovered prior to firing, that the bore was filthy. It took several days of scrubbing with Hoppe's #9 and white auto compound on a tight patch to clean it. I must have done a good job because it was very accurate with both RB's (.440") and maxi's and not at all fussy about patch thickness.

[mooman76]

Underclocked, Thanks for the clarification! (I hoped it wasn't directed at me.) Also, I'm not opposed to in-lines at all and am, in all honesty, tempted to purchase one (used). What holds me back, however, is the number of factors you have to juggle to get accuracy as well as the iffy condition of used barrels (I'm thinking of Joe B.'s experience with a CVA Hawken + what I've seen.) that have received less than TLC. You're right, some shooters don't clean their equipment as thoroughly as they should*, but I don't know whether they're lazy, just don't grasp what BP/Pyro. use entails, or if they just see ML's as a means of extending the deer season.


*I bought a used T/C Hawken (28" bbl., 1:48 twist) in ~100% condition at a gun show 20+ yrs. ago, but discovered prior to firing, that the bore was filthy. It took several days of scrubbing with Hoppe's #9 and white auto compound on a tight patch to clean it. I must have done a good job because it was very accurate with both RB's (.440") and maxi's and not at all fussy about patch thickness.

Well the good thing about inlines( I don't care for them too much either but I do own one) is you can pull the plug to see the condition of the barrel. I don't believe that these guns were ill taken care of because of lazy shooters, or at least for the most part. I don't think they realize the importance or how bad the powder will eat away at their gun and they set it aside and get busy and forget about it.

I have forgot to clean a few guns myself as soon as I intended but they weren't ML's so it wasn't as big a deal. I now leave my guns out until I get to cleaning them that way I know I will get it done! I have bought most of my ML's used and I always look down the bore to see how it looks. Yes I am limited to what I can see but the obvious will show up. Also I consider the outside of the gun. If the outside wasn't taken care of I figure the inside wasn't either. I did buy a 45 kentucky pistol once that wasn't taken care of but it was $15 and the parts were worth that. I was figuring on a wall hanger but it looked so good when I got done I hated to shoot it but of coarse I had to!

[Rattus58]

My opinion on accuracy is to buy a used white, you'll never be sorry, or look for a really good condition MK85 from Knight. These shoot all projectiles very nice, and really, a hammer that rotates or a pull to cock hammer that flies forward is no difference.. if you think so, try an L&R v-spring lock some time against a plunger. However I'm wit me Uncle Rich on this one... an open action plunger might look different than a sidelock, but they are really one and the same gun in function.

Aloha... :cool: :drinks:... My opinions of course are never to be doubted.... :grin:

[eka]

I ran into a guy at the range the other day with one of those Savage Smokeless Muzzleloaders. He was using a duplex smokeless load and getting amazing results at 300 yards. I am impressed with the technology, but have to admit to scratching my head a little as to how this would qualify for primitive hunting season.

Keith

[clintsfolly]

i have a smokeless muzzleloader that my brother an i built last year. it shoots 2" groups at 200yds 2" high at a 100 8" low at 200 with a300gr .458 rem hp 5 deer will all swear that it deadly clint

[charger 1]

i have a smokeless muzzleloader that my brother an i built last year. it shoots 2" groups at 200yds 2" high at a 100 8" low at 200 with a300gr .458 rem hp 5 deer will all swear that it deadly clint

I was at the range the other day with mine at the two hundred meter. Nice day, Our ML season starts monday so I wanted to run a few through the savage. You have know idea how many cartridge guns I've had and sold cause they wouldnt come close...1/2" high at 50,3.2 low at 150,11.1 low at two hundred... What kinda barrel did you use Clint? Was it one from Ron Name?

[clintsfolly]

yes i got my barrel from Ron Name he has come to a smokeless shoot at my club the last 2yrs . the barrel is a Douglas .50cal1/36 twist unturned which we tapered crowned to 28" my load is .458 300gr hp/orange mmp/42gr sr4759 /wim209 clint

[charger 1]

yes i got my barrel from Ron Name he has come to a smokeless shoot at my club the last 2yrs . the barrel is a Douglas .50cal1/36 twist unturned which we tapered crowned to 28" my load is .458 300gr hp/orange mmp/42gr sr4759 /wim209 clint

I wanted to go that route but shipping to canuckistan was a no no. You know I never got the accuracy outta mmp that I did with sabots that had a stepped base like hornady. Maybe thats cause I shoot 452's in black

[clintsfolly]

a .458 bullet and a orange mmp is the goto load i use for all 50cals not had one not shoot it good i think that mmp makes the stepped base sabot for hornady clint

[Maven]

All, I was sorely tempted to purchase an in-line (lots of nice used ones on Auction Arms>BP Rifles site), but before I placed a bid, I went to our local Gander Mt. to examine and shoulder them. It's a good thing that I did because I discovered that none that I saw was drilled & tapped for a receiver sight, which I would have preferred to a scope on such a rifle. I also learned from one of the Auction Arms sellers (calls himself Blackpowder Deals, but in abbreviated form) that they don't all handle cast conicals and RB's equally well due to the depth of the rifling. (Yes, I know their twist rates are a tad fast for RB's.) To get directly to the point, I was no longer tempted after I left the store and indeed purchase a use Dixie Tennessee flintlock rifle later that week (at auction) instead.