Odd request on powder coating.

[starmac]

I have been wading through the powder coating threads, and am interested.

I would like to buy a handful of bullets to experiment with in any one of these calibers 30, 357 or 44 weights do not matter.
What I want to do is leave a few outside then bring them for a few days to subject them to some extreme temp swings, and leave a few more outside all winter to see if they stay together.

This probably sounds crazy to some of you guys, but every thing acts differently when exposed to -50. lol
Is anyone willing to part with 10 or 12 boolits.

[KYShooter73]

I can hit you with a few .356, .309, .311, or .452. Size still matters with PC.

[starmac]

309 would work great. The weight doesn't matter as I mainly want to see what they do with the major temp swings we have here. It would be rare for me to be out shooting at anything below -20, but I do leave ammo in all my pickups year round, just in case I need some, and they have seen down to 60 below (factory rounds). I mainly wondering if the cold would crack the powder coat. The parts I have powdercoated on my truck holds up better or at least as good as anything else I have ever tried in these extreme temps.

[popper]

I'll put some in the freezer for a few days then do the smash test for you. Don't think it will hurt them at all. I WD from 400 to 30F without cracks. Only way I've been able to get any off is to scrape, then I actually scrape lead, PC is just on top.

[KYShooter73]

Pm me your address and I'll send some out to you first of the week.

[starmac]

That would tell something, but freezers are actually pretty warm. If you leave the thanks giving turkey outside here a guy really needs to bring it in and put it in the freezer a week before he needs to cook it. lol

[starmac]

Thanks PM coming.

[popper]

Got me interested anyway. Dumped a few in there tonite. I'll check monday. I'd think you would have to warm them up or be using some powder rated for cold temp. I do understand the question - will PC fracture or crack at low temp. Lots of plastics do.

[waksupi]

I wish there was a Cliff Notes edition of the powder coat info.

[RoyEllis]

Got me interested anyway. Dumped a few in there tonite. I'll check monday. I'd think you would have to warm them up or be using some powder rated for cold temp. I do understand the question - will PC fracture or crack at low temp. Lots of plastics do.

Having owned a powdercoating business, I can give you a little insight. It will primarily depend on the coated substrate's expansion/contraction response to heat/cold as to whether the PC will crack away. A stable substrate with limited response shouldn't suffer coating failure, those materials that respond with a lot of movement in response to heat/cold will exceed the PC coatings elasticity and force it to crack and flake away. Hope this is what you were asking about.

[MUSTANG]

Starmac has a very good question/issue to be investigated concerning impact of extreme cold/temperature swings as they affect coatings for boolits, or many other issues. I served 3 years at the Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center (MWTC), plus some work with the USMC pre-positioned equipment in Norway. Extreme cold weather and temperature swings can have some unexpected results on materials. As an example, we inadvertently discovered that the physical electronic keys that went with the secure telephones would become brittle and shatter when subjected to cold of -10 or greater. Solution was to keep them in a pocket inside cold weather gear, and not exposed to the cold. The polymer associated with these keys, tells me that there is reason to wonder about PC coatings and extreme cold weather. A normal freezer would not get cold enough to use as a test environment. Now what might provide a reasonable test environment for PC coated boolits (other than Fairbanks Alaska) would be extended exposure to Dry Ice which is -109.3°F or -78.5°C. The coldest we experienced while I was at the MWTC was -78°F.

Mustang

[starmac]

I personally do not know much about powder coating, and absolutely zero about coating bullets.
My son however has a commercial powder coating oven he uses daily to powder and ceramic coat. Aluminum and steel powder coated stands the extreme temp swings very well. he started powder coating fuel tanks and boxes, fenders, etc on semis running the haul road last year. This stuff held up great so far as good as the expensive rubber coatings, enough that he is getting a lot of business, after it held up on a few trucks all year. lol I don't know if it is simalar to what you guys are using, but if it is, and lead doesn't expand and contract too much, it should be good to go.

[popper]

Had to do some testing for Canadian electronics years ago to -65C. Hard to find an environmental chamber that goes that low. I put some PC & H-T in the freezer. It's only 20F put I want to see what happens in a smash test. I won't be shooting anything colder than that. Lead won't expand/contract much but Cu GC sure will. Guess I'd better put some GC ones in there.

[popper]

Smash test today PC & green H-T. No cracking or flaking, right out of stand alone freezer, prob ~ 25F.

[starmac]

I have some of KYshooter73's great looking boolits outside cooling off now. I am very impressed with them so far, and think they will probably take the cold better than most lube.

[popper]

Are they coated over the GC? That is the part I would be most concerned about. Contraction a& expansion of Cu or Al.

[starmac]

Coating is on the gas check (aluminum) but not on the bottom. I checked this morning and they looked good. I did scratch the coating down to lead with a knife, it seemed pretty tough. It didn't get much below zero last night, we are suppose to hit 27 below in a couple of days, then I will test one with a hammer. lol

[KYShooter73]

I prefer to coat then check but the checks I'm using now don't seat properly with the increased shank diameter from coating. I'm interested to see what happens here.

[popper]

I use the Hornady checks for 30 cal, install with a Lee sizer, coat entirely, cook, WD, size. I looked at the 1 I froze and didn't find any separation or cracking. I am going to try cooking, sizing then WD a few to see if it makes a hardness difference. I think a benefit for commercial casters would be selling unsized coated CBs. User sizes to fit.

[starmac]

I see many that are sizing raw, then resizing after coating, presumably because the coating is too thick for there sizer with an unsized boolit. I am thinking once everyone gets a general handle on how thick their coating is (hopefully their will be some uniformity to it) Then have molds built accordingly. I have hopes that coating the bases could eliminate the gas checks at reasonable rifle velocities. Freightman has had some success without them.

[Rooster]

Comparisons of Thermal Expansion Rates:

http://inspectapedia.com/exterior/Coefficients_of_Expansion.htm

[starmac]

It was 22 below this morning. I brought a couple in, and smashed one. The pc did not crack or tear, or loosen up at all. The aluminum gas check did come off on the second hit with the hammer, but I would think that would be fine. I checked the other one I brought in to see if the gas check had loosened up, and it didn't seem like it.
I will wait for 30 below temps before smashing another one, but good so far.

[KYShooter73]

Wow. I guess I should be just fine here in Ky if they hold up to -22. :drinks:

[starmac]

Yea I think you will be fine. lol I have no plans of hunting any colder than 20 below, but I want to see how well they handle brutal cold in storage. lol I have tried going to the range at 20 below, and after just a few shots with your gloves off, I am useless as far as hitting anything. lol

Several years I bought a utility snow machine from a guy that hunted and trapped a lot. He told me it would always start on the second pull down to 40 below. I ask him who cares, and he said I'm serious. I told him I was too, that I didn't care if it ever started at 40 below. lol He claimed to have caribou hunted at those temps, but I don't need meat that bad. lol

[xacex]

At -40 below I bet you gut fast! That carcass would be a rock in short order. The only time in my life I saw temps like that were in McCall Id. back in the 70's. I don't think it even gets down that cold anymore. You could drive a car across Payette lake during winter back then. Now it doesn't completely freeze over.
Looks like I have nothing to worry about storing these coated boolits in the garage down here in Oregun. Hell, I could probably store them in a bucket outside without worry because of the coating. Just wipe off the grunge/moss and load.

[starmac]

At -40 below I bet you gut fast! That carcass would be a rock in short order. The only time in my life I saw temps like that were in McCall Id. back in the 70's. I don't think it even gets down that cold anymore. You could drive a car across Payette lake during winter back then. Now it doesn't completely freeze over.
Looks like I have nothing to worry about storing these coated boolits in the garage down here in Oregun. Hell, I could probably store them in a bucket outside without worry because of the coating. Just wipe off the grunge/moss and load.

Xacex The storing deal is what I am trying to determine. lubed boolits just do not do well in long term storage, I think these will.
I measured one this morning and left it inside, If my measurement was right, it was 3 thousandths smaller at 22 below, and back dead on .309 now after warming up.

[bretNorCal]

Coating is on the gas check (aluminum) but not on the bottom. I checked this morning and they looked good. I did scratch the coating down to lead with a knife, it seemed pretty tough. It didn't get much below zero last night, we are suppose to hit 27 below in a couple of days, then I will test one with a hammer. lol

I smacked some with a hammer and it took quite a bit of abuse before it cracked.


To OP: In the US because of the GCA to manufacture bullets for sale requires an FFL, it also requires an ITAR registration. While I think that is totally insane to demand at least $2300/year in regulatory fees because lead is shaped one way instead of another it is what it is. That is the only thing holding me back from gearing up to sell cast boolits. I just dont know that I would be able to make enough as a part time hobby to cover the fees.

[xacex]

Starmac, good to know that this coating material has that much elasticity. From my experience it had good uv resistance as well. For long term storage I have not heard of a better coating or lube yet, outside of copper jackets. Moly had good properties, outside of it being hygroscopic, and coating your bore. A bad combo in my book.

[Bullshop Junior]

I have been wondering the samething. Once i get all set back up for loading and casting, i want to experiment with difforant powder coating meatheds side by side with some of the more popular lubes.

[popper]

BJ - I'd just skip the experiments and jump right in, unless your shooting in the 3k fps range.

[starmac]

It is 38 below this morning, at least that is what the paper says. lol The pc looks good and passed the smash test like normal temps.
The gas check did come off on the first hit with the hammer, but I don't really see that as a problem. I couldn't feel any movement in the gas check before I smashed it, but the powder coat on the sides of the gas check may actually be a good thing in these temps.

[Bullshop Junior]

BJ - I'd just skip the experiments and jump right in, unless your shooting in the 3k fps range.

I was gonna go full power in my 270, unless i have a better platform by then. I know i used to shoot my 223 with pretty good accuracy up to about 2800fps with speedgreen