Vetterli centerfire conversion

[jhrosier]

Part-1 The Vetterli Rifle

It all started a couple of years ago when I bought a couple of really interesting Swiss rifles.

I collect interesting guns, sporters or military, and the Swiss Vetterli riles fall into both categories, interesting and military. It didn't hurt that they were also very reasonably priced.

The first was an 1869/71 model that I picked up from a dealer in Canada. The .41RF Vetterlis are regarded as antiques in most countries. The lack of restrictions and official paperwork was refreshing. I sent a MO and the seller mailed the gun to me, way cool!
Sometime later, I was wandering around the gun show in Springfield and spotted another Vetterli looking for a home. It was a very nice Model 1878/81, completely surrounded on the table by Garands. This is a sure sign of good hunting for serious bargain hunters.

Vetterlis tend to be reasonably priced because they are old, funny looking, and they fire a cartridge, the 10.4x38mm rimfire, that has not been available for about 80 years. The good news is that the bores tend to be very nice and the rifles are generally in good shape after a near-century as wall hangers. A large number of these rifles were "buba'd" into rather ugly sporters and sold by Sears & Roebuck and other arms merchants in the early 1900's. Fortunately, most were not subject to this fate.

Here is a photo of my 1878/81 rifle:
http://images30.fotki.com/v465/photos/5/590147/5580198/78_81_Vetterli_rifle_s-vi.jpg

1878/81 Vetterli Specifications from Swissrifles.com:
Barrel Length: 33.5 inches
Overall Length: 52 inches
Weight: 10.19 lbs empty
Chambering: 10.4x38 (.41) Swiss Rimfire
Rifling: 4 groove, RH twist, 1 in 26"
Velocity: 1425 fps
Capacity: 13 (12 round tube magazine +1 in the cartridge elevator)
Total Production: 37,010 Model 1878/81s

Link to page about vetterli rifles:
http://www.swissrifles.com/vetterli/



There is something that draws me to old guns. The early breechloaders are examples of a very interesting and brief period between muzzleloaders and machine guns. The last fifty years of the nineteenth century began with the invention of the first self contained rimfire cartridge and ended with the development of the modern self-loading rifle and the first machine guns.
The development of the Vetterli rifle took place from 1869 to 1881. It was the first repeating cartridge rifle adopted by any modern army. The Swiss were a decade ahead of the rest of the world's armies with a reasonably powerful, large capacity repeating rifle.

Jack

[jhrosier]

Part-2 Converting the Vetterli Rifle

I can't take credit for coming up with the idea of converting the Vetterli rifle from rimfire to centerfire. Quite a few folks have blazed that trail for me. While the end result is the same, each person who does a conversion uses materials and techniques that are convenient and familiar. The object of the exercise is to drill the bolt for the new firing pin and fabricate a firing fin that will not fall out of the bolt. I chose to make the firing pin retainer from 6061-T6 aluminum because I have access to truckloads of it and it is easy to work with machine or hand tools. Others have used steel or nylon for the same reasons. The retainer simply keeps the firing pin located between the end of the striker and in the new firing pin hole in the bolt head. I used an RCBS headed decapping pin to make the firing pin. The decapping pin is .070" in diameter and about 1/8" longer than the finished product. I Drilled a .073" hole in the center of the bolt face and into the striker channel. After it was fitted to the bolt and retainer, the firing pin was trimmed to leave .06" protruding with the striker down and the tip was rounded and polished.

Here is a picture of the bolt with the original two-pronged rimfire firing pin and the two pieces of the centerfire conversion firing pin. You can see the end of the striker through the slot in the bolt. The striker is shown retracted to the cocked position and moves about .4" when released.

http://images32.fotki.com/v1046/photos/5/590147/5580198/P1080264ms-vi.jpg

This photo shows one of the original Swiss military 10.4x38mm cartridges, a newly made 10.4x42mm and the .348 Winchester cartridge that provided the new brass.

http://images31.fotki.com/v1041/photos/5/590147/5580198/P1080265ms-vi.jpg

All of the work to make the parts and modify the bolt can be done in two or three hours.

The Vetterli bolt with the new centerfire firing pin in place:

http://images25.fotki.com/v947/photos/5/590147/5580198/P1080271ms-vi.jpg

Converting the rifle to centerfire requires modifying the gun by drilling a hole for the new firing pin through the face of the bolt. This conversion does theoretically reduce the value of the gun as a collectable. The conversion also makes the gun more desirable as a shooter. I believe that the net effect on the value of the gun is nothing at all. Some people scrounge up a replacement bolt for the conversion. They are not easy to find or inexpensive.

Jack

[jhrosier]

Part-3 Forming and Loading cartridges for the Vetterli Rifle

"To retain respect for laws and sausages, one must not watch them in the making."~usually attributed to Otto von Bismarck
The same might be said of making cartridges for vintage arms. Such an undertaking requires a clear understanding of the function and limitations of the cartridge case in a particular firearm. There are no SAAMI specs, no proven loading data, and no readily available loading components. Period documents, collectors cartridges, and carefull measurements of available firearms are the source of most information. If this does not make you nervous, welcome to the dark side of handloading.

The important characteristics of the 10.4x38mm cartridge and the Vetterli rifle are as follows.

1. The head of the 10.4 cartridge is just slightly larger than the .348 Winchester cartridge and the rim is a little larger. In both cases, the size difference is within safe working tolerance.

2. The .348 Winchester case is more than long enough to trim down to the required length.

3. The nominal bore and groove sizes of the Vetterli rifle are just a few thousandths smaller than bullets used for modern .44 magnum and .444 Remington cartridges. While we are now accustomed to bore sizes that vary within tenths of thousandths, the bores of firearms made a century ago had much larger tolerances. It is not unusual to find bores .008" or more larger than the nominal size. Many of the old guns used hollow based soft lead bullets so that the bullet could expand to fit whatever size the barrel was bored. The only way to dertermine the actual bore size is to push a well lubed soft lead ball through the bore and measure it. My 78/81 Vetterli barrel, when slugged, measures .426" across the grooves. This is close enough to use a .429 soft lead bullet.

4. The mechanism in the Vetterli rifle that moves the cartridge from the tube magazine to be in line with the chamber is the same as that used in the Henry and early Winchester rifles. The cartridge in the carrier serves as a stop for the next cartridge in the magazine. A cartridge that is too long will catch in the end of the magazine tube and one that is too short will allow the next cartridge to partially enter the carrier and, in both cases, prevent it from rising. The correct length for a 10.4mm Swiss cartridge is 2.2" overall. The original cartridges used a very long heel seated, hollow based bullet of about 330 grains weight. the closest match for the original bullet is from the Lee .429 - 310grain mould. It is blunt and flat nosed and quite a bit shorter than needed for the 38mm long Swiss cartridge, but it is close to the original weight and diameter.

5. The 10.4mm Vetterli rifles are chambered a lot deeper in the throat than modern cartridges. The extra length was intended to leave room for powder fouling. I decided to lengthen the cartridge case into this space to make up for the short bullet. This practice was also employed with the original rimfire loadings to allow the use of a shorter and lighter bullet. Many folks just keep the original case length and single load the cartridges with a lighter and shorter bullet. I measured the useable length of the chamber by making a case quite a bit too long and measuring how much the rim protruded from the chamber. The case was cut back until it just fit and then trimmed another .02" for clearance. The final case length was just determined to be a bit short of 42mm at 1.645".

The original loadings for the 10.4x38mm were black powder. Later loadings used low pressure smokeless powder loads with either outside lubricated or paper patched soft lead bullets. I decided to "split the difference" and am loading my first cartridges with Hodgdon's Triple7, a black powder substitute. This powder burns at the same pressure levels as black powder and is very bulky. The 10.4 cartridge is too large for a safe full load of any modern smokeless powder. The Triple7 powder will fill the case for best ignition and accuracy, while keeping the pressures down to safe levels. By consulting available loading data for this powder in other guns, I estimate that the velocities should be arguably close to the original factory loadings. The powder charge was determined by filling a formed case to about 1/16" above where the base of the bullet would be in a loaded cartridge. Hodgdons suggests that, with Triple7, the powder charge be compressed lightly or not at all, but the loading density should be 100%. The powder is measured by volume, not weight, like black powder and the charge was determined to be 45 grains equivalent, by volume.

The only loading dies that are currently available are from RCBS and cost about as much as a Vetterli in excellent condition. Many other people have found that the cartridges can be formed and subsequently neck sized by using the mouth of a .44 Mag die and the bullets can be seated with a .45 ACP die. Since these dies were available, that's what I used. The first attempt at forming cost me a couple of ruined cases but the next 18 went without a problem.

The Vetterli chamber has a slight bottleneck and the cases were formed so that the shoulder bears firmly to maintain minimum headspace. After the cases were formed, a cutoff wheel in a dremel tool was used to remove the bulk of the excess brass. Finally the cases were trimmed to a finished length of 1.645" with the Forster case trimmer.
The necks were opened up and the mouths very slightly belled with a Lyman .44 caliber "M" die.

I have found that many of the older calibers shoot more accurately with pistol primers. Many times a rifle primer will start the bullet moving before the powder is properly and consistently ignited. My first loads use the Winchester large pistol magnum primer, seated with the Lee auto-prime tool.

The powder was measured by volume, using the Lee dipper and the bullet was started in the case as for as possible by hand. The seating was finished with a .45 ACP seating die. The slight bell of the case mouth was removed and a slight taper crimp applied by driving the cartridge a short distance back into the original sizing die. The primer was protected from accidental firing by placing a shell holder back on the case and tapping the cartridge back into the die with a nylon hammer.

The loaded cartridges fit the chamber with just a little resistance at the end of the bolt handle travel and function through the magazine.


Vetterli 10.4x38mm rimfire and 10.4x42mm centerfire cartridges
348 Winchester case - 10.4x42mm CF - 10.4x38mm RF
http://images30.fotki.com/v45/photos/5/590147/5580198/P1080270ms-vi.jpg

For more information about the 10.4x38mm cartridge:
http://www.swissrifles.com/ammo/index.html

Jack

[jhrosier]

Part-4 Firing the Centerfire Vetterli Rifle

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. ~ancient proverb

http://images30.fotki.com/v470/photos/5/590147/5580198/vetterlioffhand-vi.jpg

The 78/81 Vetterli proved itself to be still quite capable, after more than a century of silence.
A few shots were fired at 25, 50, and 100 yards to get the feel of the rifle and to check the trajectory of the bullets. I was not surprised to find the gun shooting high. The lowest setting on the sight is 225, yards or meters, I don't know which. At 25 yards it was about 8" high, over a foot high at fifty and a couple of feet high at 100 yards. The Hodgdon's Triple7 black powder substitute produced a satisfying cloud of smoke but without the rotten egg smell of real black powder. The recoil was negligible, as expected from a cartridge of about the same power as a .44 Magnum, in a ten pound rifle.

http://images32.fotki.com/v1061/photos/5/590147/5580198/Vetterliontherange-vi.jpg

I set up targets at 25 yards so the the shots would all fall on the target. The chronograph is an Ohler Model 33 that I have had for many years. The screens are a PITA to locate and cost $80 each, the last time that I shot one. I set the screens out to the end of the reach of the cables to try to keep the muzzle blast, smoke and powder residue from affecting the results

http://images32.fotki.com/v1062/photos/5/590147/5580198/vetterli_targets_25yds-vi.jpg

Three groups, each of five shots were fired. The flyer to the left of the first group was the offhand shot fired when taking the photo of the offhand shooting. All of the groups were fired from a rest for best accuracy. The first two groups were fired using a six o'clock hold on the lower targets. The third group was fired taking a twelve o'clock hold on the lower target, shown by the red front sight outline added to the photo. The group sizes in order of firing were 1-3/4", 1-1/2", and 3/4". I attribute the smaller size of the last group both to growing familiarity with the gun and sights, and to having a much clearer sight picture with the twelve o'clock hold. It is noteworthy that the chronograph results for the last group showed an extreme spread of 12 fps and a standard deviation of only 4 fps!

The average velocity for the 15 shots was 1271 fps with an extreme spread of 62 fps and a standard deviation of 19 fps. I was pleasantly surprised and encouraged by the consistency of the chronograph results. While the velocity is a couple hundred fps below the original loadings, I am still more comfortable using the Triple7 at black powder pressure levels and 100% loading density than with a quarter of a case of fast burning pistol powder. The magnum pistol primers proved their value in the consistent velocities and lack of set back.

The cases formed nicely to the chamber, increasing .02" in diameter at the shoulder and extracted with ease. The cases now have a long tapered shoulder like the original rimfire cartridge shown earlier. There is no measurable case head expansion. The primers are deeply indented but with no signs of immanent perforation and the edges of the primer and firing pin mark are well rounded. In the absence of a pressure gauge, these are all positive signs of chamber pressure that is appropriate for this type of gun. There is no blackening of the case necks, which would show poor sealing caused by excessive clearances or inadequate chamber pressure.

The bore was not cleaned during the firing session. I checked the bore after every five shots and found that there was no more fouling after the 18th shot than after the second shot.

http://images30.fotki.com/v45/photos/5/590147/5580198/VetterlifirsttargetsS-vi.jpg

It was a great day to bring the Vetterli back to life.
I think it heard it whisper, "Let's do this again."

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Jack

[RayinNH]

Jack, an excellent presentation. I don't own a Vetterli, but your explanation and photography made for a great read...Ray

[3006guns]

Jack,
Thanks for a really well written report on the Vet. I'm starting just such a conversion and had questions about the case length, which you answered very well. I'll be using 8mm Lebel cases for my conversion though, mostly because they're a little cheaper than the .348 Winchester.

[Trailblazer]

Very interesting! I have a Vetterli-Vitali which was converted to 6.5 Carcano. The bore is far from perfect and it has a 20 lb. trigger but one of these days I am going to try the Lyman 140 grain Loverin in it. I shot a few Hornady 140's through it with mild loads and it shot about 2' high at 100 yards.

[Nueces]

Well, Jack, with that fine dissertation, I think we should call you Dr. Jack.

Very enjoyable and informative.

Thanks, Mark

[jhrosier]

Thanks to all for your kind remarks.


Well, Jack, with that fine dissertation, I think we should call you Dr. Jack.

Very enjoyable and informative.

Thanks, Mark

Mark,
You can call me anything except late for supper.:)

It was a fun project and I'm not quite done.
I am going to make a taller front sight that will clamp on the barrel, sort of like a scope ring. I'm more than a little curious to see how it will shoot at 100 and 200 yards.

Jack

[smokemjoe]

Great shooting, I have a long reamer and reamed out that long freebore.Make my cases now 1.700. Had a mold made up by CBE for it, Also try the mauser bullet 446110, size them to. 431 and they are a great bullet with 13 grs. unique.I have a number of the Vetterlis and JB welded a Ly. 57 sight to one, Has been on it for 2 years now and over 900 rds. through it, Took one other and drilled and tapped it and put Unteral scope blocks on it with a 20 X scope its a 1/2 in. shooter at 100 yds. Some of these bores run at .426, 429- .430 and the 69-71s will run about .435. Good to meet someone else shooting the Vets, The Swiss fue is hard to get rid of. I wrote a 2 page story in the Fouling Shot awhile back if you happen to take it, You done a great job.

[jhrosier]

... its a 1/2 in. shooter at 100 yds. ....

Was this with the 446110 and 13gr Unique?
Funds are limited so I won't be buying any more moulds for a while but I would like to find one more similar to the original shape than the current Lee mould.

I am totally immune to the Swiss Fue, according to my wife.
I have been thinking about a Vetterli carbine though.:)

Jack

[smokemjoe]

Jack : Yes it was with the 446110 mold, Lees D.C. Mold No. C430-310- RF is a very good shooter also for the Vets.- Joe

[SwedeNelson]

Jack

Great write up!
Ran across one and after reading this I had to get it.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/fab4029f3293f283d3e94873e7ea7db2.jpg

Ordered brass, dies and a boolit mould also.

Smokemjoe
Dont get the Fouling Shot, is there any way to get a copy of your store?

Swede Nelson

[jhrosier]

Swede,
Glad you enjoyed it.
I'm shooting mine every week and having a ball.
After the cases are fireformed they will hold another 5 gr equivalent of Triple 7.
The average velocity went up from 1270 fps to 1335 fps with 50 gr equivalent and the groups shrank noticeably. I'm shooting just a bit under 2 moa now.

I'm thinking of increasing the hardness of the boolits when I cast the next batch. I'm casting air cooled WW now and they are very soft. I might have to size a harder boolit a couple thousandths smaller as I am .005" over groove diameter right now. I cut the group sizes in half with my 8x58RD when I went to harder boolits.

You have a nice looking rifle there and I'm looking forward to a range report when you get it going.
If you need any advice about the conversion or case forming and loading, please drop me an email (see my user profile for contact info)
If you are going to use smokeless powder, you should get in touch with Smokemjoe. He has been doing some good shooting with his Vets with smokeless powder.

I made this taller clamp on front sight from a scrap of steel. The gun was shooting a couple of feet high at 100 yards so I made the sight .300" higher than the original front sight. Now I set the rear sight to 250 meters for 25 yards, 300 meters for 50 yards and 350 meters for 100 yards. I made the blade .085" wide and it gives a good sight picture. The camera flash made the bluing look terrible. I natural light the sight matches the bluing on the rest of the gun pretty close.

http://images32.fotki.com/v1060/photos/5/590147/2786028/new_front_sight-vi.jpg

Jack

[Andy_P]

I suggest that anyone shooting, or intending to shoot a Swiss Vetterli consume the information found over at the Vetterli Forum of swissrifles.com A guy named "Parashooter" has done up info on the centerfire conversion that can't be beat.

I have several Vetterlis converted and have found that the most simple conversion (simply drilling a hole and using an RCBS decapping pin), works as well as the more complex and expensive means. I shoot only smokeless and did well in the latest Swiss Postal Shoot (91/120). I love these guns.

[jhrosier]

Andy,

What boolit are you using?

Jack

[JSH]

Argh, you boys arebad influence on a body. I have looked at these for several years. It seems
for some reason that there are a few more every time I get to a GS. The last small one day show I went to a gent had one that was in fair condition as far as the wood. The metal was excellent.
He had it priced fair enough. I picked it up and looked at it twice. Each time he came down a bit and almost begged me to take it. I thought maybe he would offer me some $ to get it off of his table,lol.
I am afraid now that the next time this occurs I will haul one home with me.

I see one of you were using Lebel brass. Is that somthing that Grafs had made up? Or, is it available some where else?

Also, I would think Trail Boss would be a good powder for this one?

Jeff

[jhrosier]

Argh, you boys arebad influence on a body.
:twisted:

.....
Also, I would think Trail Boss would be a good powder for this one?

Jeff

Remember that this is a ~20Kpsi black powder cartridge.
That was the main reason that I decided to go with Triple 7.
It has given me great results with modest pressures and the cleanup is probably easier than smokeless.
Two patches with black powder solvent and then some oil is all that I have needed.
I rinse the cases with hot water with a little white vinegar and they come out like new.
Work your loads up carefully. If you can find some loading data for Trail Boss in the .44 magnum, that would be a good place to start..

Jack

[Andy_P]

Andy,

What boolit are you using?

Jack

I use the Lee 310 44 Mag bullet. Barrel slugs at 0.430", and use 348 Win brass and cut it to 1.635", so there isn't much bullet in the neck when I set the OAL to 2.200" so it will feed through the mag. I have a custom bullet ordered from Mountain Molds that will weigh 325 grs and have a crimp groove at 0.565" from the nose which will be perfect for my brass. The twist is 1:26 in these guns, so bullets much heavier than that don't always stabilize at least much past 100yds. I tried the 370gr RCBS boolit for the 43 Mauser sized down from 0.446" to 0.430" and it did not shoot well.

By way of loads, I mostly use a full case of pulled Swedish military powder (burn rate near IMR4320) and get about 1400 fps. Some unburnt powder (crinklers), but a solid performer. Other loads that work well with the Lee 310gr have been:

SR4759 - 22.0 grs - 1400 fps
H4198 - 28.0 grs - 1350 fps

If I was to try Trail Boss, I'd stick to no more than about 1000 fps and start at about 8.0 grs. With Unique, I'd go as high as 1100 fps and try 10.0 grs.

The idea to use 44 Mag loads seems a good one. The Vetterli operates at much lower pressures than the 44 Mag, but the case is much larger which compensates.

P.S. Lee makes good and inexpensive dies for the 41 Swiss. Thanks Lee.

Mine shoots 12" high at 100 yds. I love that front sight you contrived - good job.

[dakotashooter2]

All great info. I am currently in possession of what appears to be a sporsterized single shot converted to a box magazine and with the centerfire conversion. I've been intending to get it up and running for some time but the cost of dies held me back. I see now that lee has them for under $30 so this project may get back on track. I have 100 new 348 cases I picked up for for only $20 and tried case forming with 44 dies but was not happy with the results. I like the idea of using the triple seven instead of smokeless.

[jhrosier]

Dakotashooter2,
The box magazine sounds like an Italian Vetterli-Vitali.

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Italy/ItalVetVital03.jpg

They are very similar to the Swiss Vetterli, but not identical.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Sounds like a Mod. 1870/87. This would be in 10.4x47R cal. Unless it was re barreled to 6.5mm Carcano, which would make it a Mod.1870/87/15. When converted to 6.5mm, the unique magazine with the round spring, was changed to a conventional magazine, and doesn't have the bulge.
The 10.4x47 cartridges are formed from .348Win.. The head of the cartridge has to be reduced in dia. to .538", about .010"
I've made swaging dies that do it in three passes, but you can also turn them down on a lathe.
The cases are then trimmed to 1.87", expand necks to .40", and size in 10.4x47 dies.
I use RCBS dies(Group "L"), I don't think Lee makes these, but I could be wrong. 250gr. .429 (.44Mag.)bullets work OK, but 2 diameter bullet would work better, the bore bing larger than the case neck ID.
Morgan

[scrapcan]

Jack ,

nice write up. I too have seen them at shops and gunshows for a song.

[jhrosier]

Thanks manleyjt,

You must sing a lot better than me.:-D

Most of the really good condition Vetterlis that I have seen in New England recently, are running around $300. Still not a bad price for a shootable piece of history, and probably a good investment.

Jack

[SwedeNelson]

Drilled the bolt and made the firing pin for my 78 today.
Fired off two primers with no problems.
Formed my brass last week from .348 Win brass from
Cabelas.

Get a .430 sizer in and I can size my 310 LEE boolits.

Life is good!

Swede Nelson

[jhrosier]

Congrats Swede,
Sounds like we will be seeing a range report next week, good luck!
Are you going with smokeless or Triple 7 for powder?

I didn't get mine out this week as it never got much above 25 degrees.
I shot a 10 shot group into about 7" at 200 yards with mine last week, and another at 100 yards that put the last five into about 1". I've been watching the group sizes and see that I have many good 5 shot groups that are surrounded by fliers.

I weighed the boolits for the first time and found only half of them are within 1/2 grain so I sorted out the best ones. I was a little surprised to find a few that looked good but were a couple of grains light, probably internal voids.

I'm using straight WW material and decided to try water dropping to see if the groups get better. The boolits are about twice as hard as the air cooled ones. The groups from my 8x58RD shrank 50% when I went to harder boolits so it will be interesting to see what happens with the 41 Swiss.

I also used the B&M powder measure to meter the charges, instead of the Lee dippers. If it gets up into the mid 30s next weekend, I will have a chance to find out if these things make any noticeable improvement.

If there is enough interest, maybe we could organize a postal match for the Vetterlis in the spring?

Jack

[Noel]

Jack,
It's great to see another set of Vette's getting back into action. My great Uncle used one in 1932-34 so I thought it only right to get one myself. Low and behold I bump into Andy P on another forum and buy one from him!

He sent some of the 310gr Lee boolits he cast as I have no means to do so. I made some cases, loaded them up with SR4759 and headed to the range. After a couple practice (and turning alot of heads at the range) I settled in on my target 50yds away. My first group went .700" for 4 shots!
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/DSCN1819.jpg

It has fired three, one hundred yard groups of 1 5/8" and smaller. Velocity was 1427 with 22grs of SR4759 and it shoots so well I never tried another load. It strikes 4" high at 100yds and does not have the origonal front sight. The barrel has been lobbed to about 26" but for the deal Andy gave me and the way it shoots I just don't care! LOL

My plan was to hunt with it which was a challenge in itself so I figured why not make it even harder and take my four year old daughter along too! We got a Muley doe tag filled with more than a little effort but the memories are great! Hope you enjoy the pics. The recovered boolit hit the doe quartering towards me at the point of the shoulder, took out the heart and lungs then stopped under the soft hide in the flank area. I did hit her again but it wasn't needed at all. She folded within 15 seconds or so of the first shot. Range was 80yds.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/DSCN1820.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/DSCN1813-1.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/DSCN1814_edited.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/DSCN1770.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x170/NoelConrad/DSCN1748-1.jpg

Coyote wouldn't stop chasing my whitetails so he bought the farm at 40yds, bang flop!

[jhrosier]

Noel,
Thanks for the photos and nice work on the Muley.
It's good to see the old guns brought back to life.
Kind of a testament to Swiss craftsmanship.
You should ask Santa for a lead pot, mould, and push thru sizer.


Jack

[Noel]

Noel,
Thanks for the photos and nice work on the Muley.
It's good to see the old guns brought back to life.
Kind of a testament to Swiss craftsmanship.
You should ask Santa for a lead pot, mould, and push thru sizer.


Jack

Yes, Santa.......he needs to get alot of things!:mrgreen:
A co-worker actually was telling me yesterday his step dad found a stash of lead at a junk yard. He has been hauling it home to make boolits.

Another Gent has also mailed me a few 330gr to try. I trimmed the first 25 cases a bit too short so hopefully the heavier longer ones will hold straight in the case.

I tore down my rifle inthe middle of deer season and put dry moly on the elevator and other sliding parts. It helps some but the cycling sure isn't what I am used too!

Hopefully my Model 14 Remington will shoot cast alright, I hope to shoot a Muley buck with it, maybe next fall!

The only other cast shooting we have done for hunting wwas my Brother in law shooting his mountain lion with a GC boolit from his Grandpa's 270. To say we are green in the cast world is a big understatement but I look forward to learning alot from here. It is a nice picture too but his gun does this thread no justice so I will hold back.[smilie=1:

I sure love shooting this Vetterli. I am going to weld up some kind of bullet trap so at least what I toss down range can be used again.

Does anyone else plan to hunt with their Vette?

Noel

[gzig5]

Noel,
I've had mine out for late doe seasons but never had an opportunity. What do you do about the lack of a safety? I was carrying unloaded and then if I was in a stand I would get one up on the elevator so I only had to close the bolt. Racking a round out of the tube makes too much noise...

Btw.. The trigger on mine was nice and crisp but about six pounds when I got it. I was able to lighten it to a nice crisp 3.5 pounds by putting a small washer between the trigger spring and the action. This takes some of the tension out. I think I had to file the head of the screw down a bit but don't remember now. I also made a mount for a Redfield International rear sight and a globe front for range use. It would shoot pretty consistent 1.5-2." five shot groups with the custion HB mold.

Greg

[Noel]

Hi Greg,

The trigger in my rifle was actually the nicest "milsurp" trigger I have had the pleasure to try. I would say 3-4lbs and quite crisp.

As for the safety, I fiddled with the rifle quite a bit and found it had the slightest bit of detent when the bolt first engaged the cock on closing lugs. A round would get chambered but the bolt was left only barely engaged at this point. The striker could not hit the firing pin or go anywhere for that matter even if the trigger was pulled. A bit akward but really, what about these rifles isn't! The is no way I could cycle a round into the empty chamber either, it demands too much attention not to mention the clattering of the elevator.

The front sight on mine is off of some other rifle, a tall gold bead in a 3/8" dovetail. Not sure what it is from, certainly not origonal or pretty but it does the job. The leaf had been bent up to a ninety degree angle instead of the laid back origonal design. It was already converted to centerfire for me too so really I did was make the brass and shoot it. It was too easy!

[Andy_P]

Sounds like a nice gun. :wink:

Great pics and story - thanks for posting.

[monriverkennel]

Does anyone here re-load and sale 10.4x38 ammo?I also need some-one to do the conversion to centerfire.I will pay reasonable price for both.I have the rifle a model 81 and it's like new,I just want to deer hunt with it for kicks.Send replies to monriverkennel@comcast.net

[JSH]

Can you guys go a little more in depth on what is need to load for these as far as dies.
Thanks
Jeff

[Andy_P]

Lee sells dies as "41 Swiss". You need to consume everything you can find written by "Parashooter" on the Swiss Rifles Forum and elsewhere. He's THE authority on the centerfire conversion.

e.g.

http://telecom.hartford.edu/swiss/vetterli.htm

http://p082.ezboard.com/Vetterli-Rifles/ftheswissriflesdotcommessageboardfrm7

[jhrosier]

Can you guys go a little more in depth on what is need to load for these as far as dies.
Thanks
Jeff

Jeff,
I'm still using a "makeshift" die set and have loaded 2-300 rounds so far.
To form the cases from .348 Win. brass, I run the case partway into a .44 mag sizing die. I use the rifle chamber as a guage to know how far to push the neck, and stop when the bolt will close with just a little resistance.
I use a dremel tool with a cutoff wheel to trim the cases to about 1/32" too long, then expand with a 44 mag expander and trim them to length with my Forster case trimmer. I make my cases 42 mm long because that is the greatest length that will chamber and it allows enough of the Lee 310gr boolit in the neck for a good fit.

The COL of the 10.4 cartridge needs to be 2.2" to work through the magazine of the Vetterli rifle.

The cases are primed with Winchester large pistol magnum primers. I have found the magnum pistol primers to give very consistent ignition in many rifle calibers when used with lead boolit loads.

I load with 50 grs volume of Hodgdon's Triple 7 ffg powder. The boolits will thumb seat to just touch the powder and are then seated about 1/10" deeper and crimped. I'm using the seating die from a .45 ACP die set.

For crimping, I put the loaded round back into the sizing die, with a shellholder on the casehead to protect the primer and then give it a couple of light taps with a small nylon hammer to drive the loaded round into the die about 3/16". This gives a nice taper crimp to keep the boolits from moving in the tubular magazine.

Because I am using just the mouth of the sizing die, I need to back it out farther than the threads would ordinarily allow. My RCBS Rockchucker press has an insert that I back out about 1/2" with a spacer under it to raise the dies. I have seen that other folks make a spacer that slips over the cartridge to limit the travel of the ram.

Jack

[jhrosier]

Does anyone here re-load and sale 10.4x38 ammo?I also need some-one to do the conversion to centerfire.I will pay reasonable price for both.I have the rifle a model 81 and it's like new,I just want to deer hunt with it for kicks.Send replies to monriverkennel@comcast.net

Check this out:

http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/

I have not dealt with this outfit but they were recommended to me by someone on another forum.

Jack

[SwedeNelson]

Got a chance to check my over all cartridge length.
It looks like my old rifle has a very generous throat.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/DSCN0672.jpg

The first cartridge is the gauge. 1.805"
The second cartridge is 1.770" and should be able to
use the first crimp groove on the LEE 310Gr. and
give me a OAL of 2.20".
the third cartridge is one that is 1.680" long with a
LEE 310Gr. loaded to a OAL of 2.20".

Have 20 rounds 1.680" long loaded up and ready to go.
But I think I'm going to make up some at 1.770" and
see how it works.

As soon as the weather warms up will give them
a try.

Swede Nelson

[jhrosier]

Swede,
Be careful with the long cases.
The chambers have a long and shallow taper.
Your gauge should be .002-.003" larger than the case with the boolit seated, to allow for some expansion. Otherwise you could get very high pressures.

Winter generally sucks for rifle shooting but it got up near 50 in my corner of New England this afternoon. I grabbed the Browning SS in 45-70 and got a couple hours of enjoyment. Only wish I had some ammo ready for the Vetterli.:(

Jack

[TAWILDCATT]

I got my dies from MIDSOUTHSHOOTERS.COM.$26,FOR 41 SWISS AND SAME FOR 43 MAUSER.
HARBOR TOOL HAS AN ELECTRIC CUT OFF SAW FOR $29.LITLE SAW PERFECT FOR CUTTING NECKS OFF.[smilie=1::coffee:

[Bob S]

Jack:

Geez, that range looks familiar. North Grafton??

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[jhrosier]

Bob,
All of New England looks about the same.:-D
The range is The Quaboag Sportsmans Club, in Warren, MA.

Jack

[Bob S]

Jack:

The layout of the 100 yard and 200 yard berms is the same as it was in North Grafton in 1973 or '74 ... probably the last time I shot there, before I went back in the Navy. That was my "civilian year". This pic is at Westfield. I'm the only guy with a beard. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/ma_hp_team_1973.jpg

Back on topic: I have enjoyed your posts on the Vette. I have four of them hanging around here: one fully converted, the others in various stages of neglect. I use the custom Lee mould that was designed for the Swiss cartridge by Eric Timrud, and it works perfectly. Eric shot his Vette in one of the first "Vintage Foreign Military Bolt" matches at Camp Perry ... he had to get special dispensation to use it, since it is obviously not "as issued" with the CF conversion ... and I'm pretty sure he managed to get a medal with it. (They allow a ridiculously long time for the rapid fire stage ... 90 seconds, I think. He is an experienced HP shooter, so he said he had no problem loading the second five rounds in the time limit.)

The groove diameter of my shooter is .430. I use CH dies, but thay have a .427 expander, so I use a Lyman 44 "M" die for that part of the loading process.

I also have a Peabody in process of being converted to CF. Just too many projects going on at once!

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[jhrosier]

Bob,
Great "vintage" photo. (Makes you feel old, Eh?)
I wonder where all of those fellows are shooting now.

The Vetterli project has put a lot of the fun back into shooting and I'm going to have to get busy with my loading pretty quick.

I am also a fan of the Lyman 'M' die for cast boolit loading. I now have a mini lathe and a length of 1/2" drill rod so I will be making expander plugs for lots of different diameter boolits. I find that the step up at the mouth of the case allows the boolit to be started without excessive belling of the case mouth and that has to improve case life. I can't help but think that the good accuracy that I have been getting with cast boolits in all of my rifles is due, in part, to the use of the 'M' die.

I hope that you will take the time to do a writeup on the Peabody when it is completed.
What is the original caliber of the Peabody?

Jack

[Bob S]

Jack:

Mr. Peabody is an 1866 Swiss contract rifle, 10.4 x 38RF, same as the Vette. As built by Providence tool Co., the barrels had the 3-groove shallow rifling that was common to US martial arms of the time. Rumor has it that the Swiss were not pleased with the three groove barrels, and had a program to systematically replace them with four deep groove barrels with the deep countersink that is used on the Vette. They didn't convert all of them, because I have a few acquaintences that own rifles with the original 3-groove barrels. Mine has the 4 groove barrel with Swiss proofs.

I paid a whopping $785 for mine from Stefan Mahrer AKA "SwissDagger", and that included the shipping from Switzerland. I could not find one on this side of the pond in comparable condition for twice that. I got on the Swiss Peabody band wagon a little late ... several years ago, all you had to do to make it CF was to purchase a Roumanian contract breechblock and firing pin from Dixie, change out the parts, and you were ready to rock 'n roll. Once the word got out, Dixe ran out of the CF parts, although when I bought mine (~5 years ago), they still had RF blocks and pins, so I got those parts to alter, leaving the original to be put away for "restoration" if the spirit ever moves me in that direction. The parts are still sitting in a bin someplace in the shop ...

I have been thinking lately, that I may "convert" some cases to "rim fire" with an offset pistol primer, like Dixe did with some of the old rimfires like the 56-50, &tc. Since this is a single shot, it's no big deal to orient the case while chambering it. IIRC, there was one guy on the original Swiss Rifle Forum that did this so he could shoot his Millbank-Amsler (Swiss version of a trapdoor, 10.3 x38RF).

More on this soon, hopefully.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Black Wolf]

Other than using a .44 mag die to form .41 Swiss brass, could someone explain what die to use for forming .41 swiss brass? I've never formed brass in my reloading experience and would like to see if it is possible for me to do it.

I have the Lee .41 Swiss die set - is it possible to form .41 Swiss brass using 348 winchester brass with that die set?

[gzig5]

BW,
I've made all my brass the hard way, with various dies to neck down and make the shoulder. I've not seen the Lee dies, but there should be no reason that you can't form in your size die. Probably would help to trim to approximate length, neck down in steps first and make sure you use plenty of lube. I recommnend Imperial Sizing Wax.
Greg

PS.. you might want to remove the sizing button for the first pass.

[mag44uk]

FWIW. I tried the 44 sizer and ended up with offset necks that looked a bit odd. I then used 45/70,45 colt and then the 44 sizer. This seemed a bit more gentle on the 348 winny brass. Roughly cut to length. Simply loaded with large pistol primer,AA5744 and custom Lee 330 grain bullet to fire form the cases then finally trimmed to length. Its worth checking your chamber to ascertain case length. Best to go for length so as to get a decent neck length.
Tony

[Black Wolf]

Got a chance to check my over all cartridge length.
It looks like my old rifle has a very generous throat.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/DSCN0672.jpg

The first cartridge is the gauge. 1.805"
The second cartridge is 1.770" and should be able to
use the first crimp groove on the LEE 310Gr. and
give me a OAL of 2.20".
the third cartridge is one that is 1.680" long with a
LEE 310Gr. loaded to a OAL of 2.20".


Swede Nelson

Gentlemen, in the post above Swede Nelson states he seated the 310gr Lee bullet at the first crimp groove. Is that actually the crimp groove or isn't that the lube groove? Unlike the pic above, I've been seating my bullet at the 2nd groove from the top of the bullet (a bit deeper than Swede's).

Just checking because my Lee 310 bullets, when panned lubed, fill the bottom two grooves with lube (note: the 2 lube grooves I'm talking about are not shown in the pic above as they are inside the case neck).

Maybe this may make it easier to understand my question: In the Cast boolit Logo for this sight you'll see a cartoon bullet. The first groove from the nose of the bullet is thinner than the larger groove below it. The Lee 310 bullet is similar except it has 2 thin grooves and 2 thick grooves. It was my understanding that the thin groove is the crimp groove and thicker groove is the lube groove. Could I be mistaken?

[jhrosier]

Black Wolf,

Since this boolit is not designed for the 10.4 cartridge, the boolit is seated to an AOL of 2.20".
If it happens to fall in an existing groove, that is great, otherwise just crimp lightly where it falls.
The chambers have an extremely long & tapered throat so the case length is made to be maximum, then trimmed back as needed to suit the boolit geometry.

Jack

[Black Wolf]

Ok - I've actually just been single feeding them manually for test firings. I just was confused as to the difference between all the grooves on the bullet. I assumed the 2 top grooves were crimp grooves and the bottom (fatter) grooves were the lube grooves. My groups at 100 yards really s-u-c-k, about 14" group - not even close to being accurate - but at least I got this ole 127-yr old girl shooting again - that's always a plus.

[jhrosier]

Black Wolf,
Load them up with Hodgdons Triple7 and a large pistol magnum primer.
Mine shoot pretty good with this powder.

Jack

ETA:see posting #4 for my targets

[reivertom]

Great info. I've been intriqued by those guns, but I never knew how to go about shooting one until recently. I like your tutorial. Good work. Years ago i remember an oldtimer gunsmith talking about the .41 Swiss. He said the bullets were so slow (old rimfires) that he could pull the trigger and set the gun down and sip his coffee before the bullet hit the target. He tended to exaggerate.:)

[jhrosier]

Thanks reivertom,
If your gunsmith was shooting past 200 yards, he may not be exaggerating much. :)

Jack

[carlschulz]

I got my Vetterli in 2002. I had the center fire conversion done in 2003 and got 20 rounds as part of the deal. It's pretty ugly (I call it the Frankenvetterli) but it shot great. Tight groups at 100 yards. Unfortuneatly I haven't shot it since. I'm in the process of tracking down what I need to form some brass and load it up.

Next on my list is my Dutch Beaumont and 577-450 Martini Henry

[dubber123]

A few pics of the one my brother and I have been fooling with: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3009.jpg

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3010.jpg If you can see it, this is the safety we made. A notch is welded to the back of the trigger, and a sliding block with an on/off detent is placed behind it. It is a notched bar that uses the rear trigger guard bow as a guide, so it can't bind. Works great.

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3012.jpg

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3011.jpg

[smokemjoe]

I see you have put a different rear sight on, I have to JB weld a post behine the front sight to bring mine down the bullet, What have you guys done. Thanks- Joe

[gzig5]

That safety is pretty slick. It doesn't lock the firing pin, but is a lot better than none at all. What length did you cut your barrel to? Looks pretty handy.

Now I'm going to keep my eye out for a beater to work on. I'm not about to cut the barrel on the one I have now.

[dubber123]

I think we cut it to 20". The forend was previously butchered to that length, but they had just crimped the mag tube over, and left a big hole! We made a nice aluminum button and blended it in, I will try to get a pic.

The safety is very positive, I would bet on a broken trigger before it tripped the sear. Not ideal, but it was the best we could come up with. The rear sight looks tall, but so is the factory piece. We milled it from a piece of 1" bar stock. I will try and get a better pic of that too, as it came out pretty well.

My brother paid either 50 or 75$ for this rifle, neither of us remember. Being previously "hacked" made the decision to work on it easy. For the centerfire conversion, we just drilled a hole in the factory striker end, and welded a section of Rem. shotgun firing pin in. Drill the bolt face, done.

[jhrosier]

I like the safety.
A clever idea well executed.

Jack

[dubber123]

Thanks, Jack. (Sorry for pilfering your thread).

[jhrosier]

Thanks, Jack. (Sorry for pilfering your thread).

No problem. Interesting ideas about the Vetterlis are always welcome.

Jack

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3054.jpg Still needs to be dialed to the right a bit, but not bad. This is one of those "Dark" bore guns. Very dark. It doesn't look like it hurt it much.

If the 50 meter target looks a little wrinkly, it was because it was snowing HARD when I shot it. My brother shot a group only slightly larger right after, using a different boolit. He then put 2 shots 5/8" C to C off hand. This is a fun old gun!

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3062.jpg A better pic of the safety we made.

[TAWILDCATT]

I have one of my own and one in the shop to clean.mine had barrel cut and destroyed got barrel and fitted.lee makes dies and molds.I got mine from midsouth.my conversion was drill the bolt and the striker.It is far easier.the bolt is soft. 8 mm lebel cases from grafs are privi partisan.I have an electric cut of saw from harbor freight.its $29 and is made for hobby it has 2" saw and vise.its the greatest for cutting cases down.and then touch up with case trimmer.
my gun has no forend or tube,thats what the other gun is for to copy. :coffee:

[TAWILDCATT]

dakota you sure you dont have the Italian vet,that is how they are set up.:coffee:
"vetterli"

[badgeredd]

:holysheepWell you guys have gone and done it. :killingpc Just when I figured I'd be happy playing with the guns I have already, you gave me the itch to go look again at a Vetterli at a local shop. [smilie=1: I believe I can horse trade for it so I am off to the store later today. :groner: DANG IT, you guys are really a bunch of enablers! :twisted: I'll tell SWMBO that you made me do it:idea: . :-D

I had thought seriously about picking one up, but I was a little put off as to what brass could be formed up for it. Now you've eliminated that obstacle, gotta go for it.

[jhrosier]

.... DANG IT, you guys are really a bunch of enablers! ....

Swiss rifle,they are just like potato chips.....:twisted:

I bought my second one because it looked lonely.[smilie=1:

Jack

[24VOLTS]

Hey Jack,

I really enjoyed your post on the Swiss Vet. I like your front sight.
Would you be willing to make one for my Swiss ?
I am sure that other shooters might be interested in them also.
Please let me know !

Thanks,

Phill

[jhrosier]

Thanks Phill,

I changed jobs & no longer have access to the machine shop for home projects.

Jack

[breese]

:mrgreen:Just recently found this site and after reading the whole thread I had to sign up….

I have a Vetterli 1867 / 71 that came out of the back hills of TN about 18 years ago when I went home to burry my grandfather. While sitting in a restaurant with other family members, an elderly gent came in with 2 very old guns. One being the 1867 / 71 and the other an old double barrel shotgun. After looking at the 67/71 I had to have it.

When I got it home I inspected the 67/71 and every part has matching serial numbers. The only thing missing is the sling but both firing pins were broken.

This last Sept I went back home to TN (my wife and I have been making yearly trips for the last 15 years) and decided to take the 67/71 with us. I have had it in storage all this time. My uncle (fyi, Uncle John is only 1 year older then I am and I’m 51) found a gun smith that has knowledge of older guns and after getting a look at mine was excited to have the chance to work on it.

First I had the smith (Sam) clean and inspect it. Cost $50. Results are excellent. Bore is exactly where it should be and Sam wants to join us if we ever decided to shoot it. Next was to have the broken Rim Fire pins fix. Cost $50. Could not pass it up. Also, have the original parts back for reference. Now we need to open the butt because on another board there was a story about spare firing pins were stored there….

My current situation is: I want to keep mine as original as possible so I am looking for a second bolt and would prefer one that’s converted to center fire. My uncle and I have been collecting the dies, brass and boolits. I would also like to purchase some already made boolits of the correct spec’s to use as reference to making our own. There is nothing like duplicating someone else’s excellent work and effort.

It is our hope to fire it this June (2010) for the first time in god knows how many years. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for the time,
Bob

[garra]

This is a great thread. I have been fighting with ammo problems and you guys answered all my concerns. My "store bought" cases are too short and I am not expanding the case neck to the proper size before I try to insert a bullet. Before I go to C&H to order an expander how much of an interferance fit do you recommend. The bore is .427, the bullets have been sized to .429, I was thinking about a .002-.004 interferance.


Thanks, have a great 4th,

[danyboy]

Anyone ever heard of a center fire bolt made to replace this rimfire one? Seen this old Veterli 41RF for sale that came with a centerfire bolt for it.

[TCLouis]

That gun is oddball enough to truly attract my attention.

I have never seen one in person that I can remember.
My quest is on!!

[MTMachinist]

Apropos Centrefire Bolts, We may produce a run of these if sufficiant interest indicates a run of 50+ would be warrented. The same with other parts for the 'Vets'. We have been doing the centrefire conversions for some time as well, other corrective work it always seems a shame to engage in an irreversible modification on such fine old pieces.

[jhrosier]

MTM,
Good luck with your venture. A well designed one piece firing pin might be an even better seller than the bolt body.
I feel that any value lost by properly converting an average condition Vetterli to centerfire is offset by making the gun more valuable as a shooter.
This would not apply to a gun which has some special historical significance or special features, such as the Jaeger rifles, and is in any case just my personal opinion.
Of course, there are some folks who wouldn't be comfortable doing the conversion themselves.

Jack

[MTMachinist]

Hallo Jack!

Excellent point and a caveat I SHOULD have added in respect to 'Average condition' or worse the 'Sporterised' (Read: 'Hack') jobs.

We already make a One-Piece firing pin for in-house, and I quite humbly assert that it is indeed: 'Well designed'. :)

Many thanks for Your kind attention and wishes.








MTM,
Good luck with your venture. A well designed one piece firing pin might be an even better seller than the bolt body.
I feel that any value lost by properly converting an average condition Vetterli to centerfire is offset by making the gun more valuable as a shooter.
This would not apply to a gun which has some special historical significance or special features, such as the Jaeger rifles, and is in any case just my personal opinion.
Of course, there are some folks who wouldn't be comfortable doing the conversion themselves.

Jack

[Ming Bucibei]

MTMachinist

I would be interested in the purchase of a vetterli firing pin / striker

Could you post further information as to the purchase of same:-D

Thanks :)

Ming Bucibei :coffeecom

[bydand]

Have two, one a standard and the other is a stutzen (double set triggers.)

Converted both to center fire.

[jhrosier]

Have two, one a standard and the other is a stutzen (double set triggers.) ....

I would sure like to have a stutzen but have never even seen one for sale.

Jack

[Abert Rim]

Great old thread that helped convince me to buy a Vetterli.

[downunderrunner]

greetings from the gun control hell of australia!!!!!

i'm looking into getting a converted CF bolt for a vetterli, as even down here, they are classified as antiques, and so do not require registration or licensing! also, if anyone can recommend a place to get dies?

[jhrosier]

... if anyone can recommend a place to get dies?

http://leeprecision.com/v-ltd-2-die-41-swiss.html

Jack

[danyboy]

greetings from the gun control hell of australia!!!!!

i'm looking into getting a converted CF bolt for a vetterli, as even down here, they are classified as antiques, and so do not require registration or licensing! also, if anyone can recommend a place to get dies?
Simple to convert as outlined by jhrosier at the beginning of thi topic. I drilled a hole in the bolt head, made a new strker like jhrosier's picture and used a rounded tip finishing nail as a firing pin. I cut win 348 cases, annealed and formed them using Lee 10.4 x 38R die. Cast my own bullets and paper patch them. Accurate at 50 yards. Everytime I take it to the range, other shooters often leave their table to watch and ask questions. I doubt you'll find converted bolts on the market. Do it yourself, less trouble than looking through the world for one. You'll enjoy doing it.

[downunderrunner]

solved the bolt issue, a friend who's a machinist is going to "clone" my bolt, but as a CF and make my a striker, just so i can keep the colectabillity of the rifle, might also make a new rear sight leaf, for 1-400 meters, so i don't booger up the original! i was thinking i'd have to order direct from lee, as no one around here seems to stock the .41 swiss set

[Pb2au]

Lees dies work pretty well,,,,but,,,,
the seating die nose stem is too long for the Lee 300 grain .430" bullet. You will have to go through some gyrations to get it set up to seat and crimp in one go.
if you use the Lee bullet, I trimmed my brass to 44mm amd it works much better. It gives the bullet more area to align and sit in. It will chamber just fine.

[Pb2au]

And welcome to the forum by the way!

[downunderrunner]

thanks Pb2au, i'd be concerned at the possibility of the brass jamming in the lede, and also the possibility of exceeding OAL? do you have any recomendations for moulds? or suppliers of hardcasts?

[Pb2au]

http://leeprecision.com/mold-6-cav-c430-310-rf.html

currently using the above mold, minus the gas check.
This mold drops a bullet long enough, with the previosly mentioned 44mm case length, to get you to the 2.2" OAL needed for the Vet's feeding system. If you get much over or under, it will jam.
The chamber/throat is basically a funnel. It was designed as such to accommodate black powder fouling. So with that in mind, the Lee slug, at or about .430" tucks right into it.
So far the accuracy I am getting is quite good. Offhand shooting at 80 yards, smashing clay pidgeons is no problem. This week it is getting bagged to bench shoot for some real groups.

Feel free to reach out with any more questions. Also, do some searching here for posts from a passed member, smokemjoe. He was a well of knowledge on the vetterlis.

[Pb2au]

Your finished Vetterli cartridge will look something like this;
140893

[Pb2au]

The real trick is the brass. The Lee mold is used by a lot of vetterli addicts.
i converted 348 winchester brass. Trim to 44mm, lightly anneal, run throught the Lee fl sizing die, re trim, deburr and use.
The only thing I had an issue with was that the base of the brass, just above the rim was a few thousands too big to chamber, so I polished it with emery paper and was good to go.

[downunderrunner]

ok, thanks for the tip! also wondering, as i currently paper patch for a martini, would a .429, with paper patch be suitable? naturally, i'll be slugging the bore of the rifle, to discover it's actual bore diameter, has anyone here tried paper patching?

[Pb2au]

Never done it myself, but some of the original service loads for the vet were paper patched. I think the biggest challenge would be finding a mold to get you there!

[downunderrunner]

well, as for paper patching, if your shooting a .430 slug, a .429 should give you some leeway to patch, and a bit of a wider selection! and you can always size down, to make room for the patch..................

[Mr Humble]

Great thread. I'm on my second converted Vette. Switched to 8mm Lebel brass, much better than 348 and available. I have used various cast bullets with good results. Recently I tried the Berry 250 gr HP copper coated bullets with 17 gr of 4227, polyester wad, ww LR primers. Accuracy was <2" @50 but 6"@100 (10 shots).

I removed the rear sight and JB welded a flat bottom Weaver base on. The scope is a Burris 2-7 IER (no longer made) that works great.

Next spring when I get back to WY, I'll be working on a load for speed goats. (anyone can kill a goat @ 300 yds with a 270.) Hunting, IMHO, is getting as close as you can. 2012 goat killed @ 90 paces with a 45 Cal Whitworth front stuffer, 2014 goat killed @ 30 paces with a type 96 Sweed/Danish sniper rifle in 6.5x55.

Plan some pig hunting this winter in FL with my 450 Bushmaster AR that shoots quite well with a 315 gr NEI .452 PB. "Thumper" is an accurate nickname !

[David LaPell]

I was reading through this old thread while I was trying to work up some loads of .32-20 with Triple 7 (which I have quite a lot of) and have used in muzzleloaders but never black powder cartridges. I am wondering if anyone has any experience with the Triple 7 FFG and say 115 grain bullets in .32-20 or Triple 7 for what I am looking for.

[Gary.D]

I have had this Waffenfabrik Bern 130076 (I think you all call it a Vetterli rifle) for about a year now it has been converted to Centerfire and I hope you all will be able to steer me in Direction on where to get ammo