410 w .395 RB

[Tackleberry41]

I know the 410 is not really a serious round. But I have one so something to mess with. Been experimenting with blown out 303, 444 marlin, and recently 9.3x74r. The 303 are a bit odd as the base never really expands so you need one size wad on top of the powder, then cardboard wads to build it up to where it flares out, then you can put a RB, but 3 won't really fit. 3 fit easily in a 444 marlin. So yea 4 will easily fit in the 3" long 74r, with space left over. At 92gr ea comes out to 368gr, or about half way between 3/4 and 7/8 oz. Havent seen a RB mold closer to 410 than the 395.

Put a plastic milk jug wad between ea ball to try and cushion them, easily enough space for other types of wad. No idea on velocity. Earlier tries with the blown out 303 didn't give very good patterns. But 4 of them stayed inside 2in at about 45-50 ft. Probably not work to good in something like a judge with its short barrel, 3 ball might.

[cpileri]

I have tried to mess w 410 shells as well, and the use of 9.3x74R brass might give an old project new life, esp w the idea to cushion each ball w a wad in between...

My old idea:the 410 revolvers of the world only appeal to me for killing snakes with shot, which they do effectively apparently; and the capability of multiple hits on goblins/zombies. The 410 slug pales in comparison to the 45 Colt loads, which penetrate way more than any ball. But then it is only a single projectile. So the area of research i find a gap in is the "best" multi-ball load for 410 pistols. Given that paradigm, there is my project. Thus an accurate, deeply penetrating multi-ball load is the niche i am trying to fill.

The projectile I am focusing on is Tungsten Spheres. at abt 17g/cc, they are uber-dense compared to anything else out there!

here's more of what's in my head (scary, i know) :)

I have also considered using nickle-plated lead buckshot, as well as steel balls (ball bearings), for the "deep penetrating, multi-ball, 410 buckshot" load.
I thought steel balls might be damaging to the bore (and of course, so might these hard tungsten balls). So for decreased density, and similar bore damage, I lean towards the tungsten. Nickle plated lead is cheaper and an option, if they dont deform. Federal Premium has the best non-deforming pellets, it seems, at least by Brassfetcher testing and a few other net searches. But i am working on "one up" on these. i acknowledge that these balls are super expensive.

Not only that, but the .315 balls (which fit into a BPI 410 TPS wad) weigh ~85grains each, reducing the shot charge by 15% vs lead as recommended by BP load data, that makes 2-3 balls as a maximum load by weight. 2 might not be worth the trouble. but 3 might.

I also thought using buffer or even a felt wad between each ball might prevent deformation, and thus allow increased penetration. So maybe a hard card wad in between or even a mini-sandwich of cards and felt to totally prevent pellet deformation woudl work on lead and thus increase pattern density.

I think the 410 is really unexplored. Hoening Big bore really upped the power ante for the 410- unfortunately they are no longer and I dont know of any of their load data.

I did find a reference for use of steel, that says, "Tom Roster, working in conjunction with the Cooperative Nontoxic Shot Education Program (CONSEP) has put together a database on the performance of lead shot vs. steel shot. In this study is an X-ray analysis of over 16,000 ducks and geese...A steel pellet, with an energy level equivalent to that of a lead pellet, provides 5% to 10% deeper penetration" (bold mine)

so the lesser density is compensated for by increasing velocity such that the lighter, and non-deforming, steel pellet has equivalent energy to a same-sized lead pellet; and allows greater penetration.

My thoughts on creating this short-range (point-blank) to a few yards, "car gun style", with a very dense pellet are to allow it to penetrate with less velocity- since these 410 revolvers generate much less velocity than long barrels.

Its expensive, sure, but since its available; it struck me as interesting and as possibly contributing knowledge to the field.

C-

p.s. my other concerns, besides developing a safe-to-fire load; is that when all is ready for ballistic testing this specific product, which is made by "fusing' tungsten powder, might have a maximum velocity at which they simply return to powder. That max velocity might be too low to provide any useful penetration. We'll see, i guess.

[Hogtamer]

I know it's not reloading but you will be AMAZED at the Federal 3" 000 .410 load. 5 pellets in line that will change your thinking about the lowly .410. A friend has an old single shot full choke that i saw with my own eyes put 2 pellets in a snuff can @ 50 yds! At 25 yds all 5 pellets were in a pattern no bigger than my spread hand. I have a sawed off that @ 10 yds blew a hole in a 3/4 in plywood as big as my fist...i know that sounds hard to believe. Try them yourself before you spend a Lot of effort reloading them. And this is from a guy who has found i could load a 12 ga buck load better than any comercially available.

[MarkP]

I tried the Federal 2-1/2" 4 pellet 000; really it is essentially an 1851 Navy cap & ball in 36 cal times 4. I do not care what people say about the perceived effectiveness compared to other handgun rounds. I would sure hate to get hit by 000. I was planning to dissect one to look at the wad, shot column, and weigh the powder.

[220]

I've played around with fire formed 9.3x74r, they look great once blown out and 3/4oz loads are possible.
Pretty much only use them for BP loads now.
Tried 148hbwc inside a wad with some felt wads in 2.5" plastic but couldn't get accuracy.
I load 5 SG's in 3" plastic as per the data in the latest lyman shot shell manual. At 25 yards it groups 6-8" consistently with maybe one pellet from every 2nd or 3rd round going out of the group.

[Tackleberry41]

I don't even mess with 410 plastic shells. The brass ones are pretty easy, and cheap to reload this way. Set of hollow punches from harbor freight were less than $10. Cardboard boxes are free. Milk jugs I can shoot em then cut off a piece to make wads.

Most of the stuff sold anymore at the store seems pretty underwhelming. But all tends to be due to the wall thickness of plastic shot shells in such a small diameter shell. Only so much you can stuff inside them. Plus I hate paying so much for them. I only have an old mossberg bolt action anyways. It was more of an exercise in what can you do than anything.

I was sort of impressed by the group that I got from 4 RB like that. You sort of expect 2 to hit center or close, one a bit further out then one way off somewhere. Thats how my 54 cal RB with #4 buck does out of a 20 ga. I had read about a wad between the RB to help prevent that, would have to experiment some more to see if its true. Yea I doubt 4 of those or even 3 going faster would be pleasant at all, whatever people might say. You could hand a 410 to a woman and she wouldn't be afraid of it and would do some damage. Curious what a cylinder full of them out of one of the 45/410 revolvers would do. Rifling may not affect them like it does shot.

[cpileri]

Sorry, my bad; it wasnt brassfetcher but here it is (link to federal premium copper plated buckshot doing well), reinforcing the idea of non-deforming pellets and penetration:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4550011&postcount=37
C-

[turbo1889]

RCBS makes an actual 0.410" round ball mold, its special order and expensive, but it does exist. Just an FYI if you have a hankering to try something a little closer to the bore diameter then a 0.395" ball.

[Tackleberry41]

A $20 Lee mold to experiment with 410 shells is reasonable, only thing it seems to be useful for at the moment. The RCBS 41 cal mold would probably cost more than the shotgun did. And for what they get for most molds surely they could cough up a set of handles.

I have read several sources of pellet deformation. They tested some loads on box o truth, alot of the pellets got flattened, cant be good for accuracy. I would have to dig thru my book marks to find ones using wads between the pellets. Their free, and take up space in that long 3 in shell. 4 40 cal RB plus the assorted wads still left about 1/2 in of empty brass.

[MarkP]

There was an old Lee WC mold in .410 I think they were listed at 162 gr, my Dad's friend had one in the early to mid 70's. It was like the Lyman 358-77 gr WC but in 41. Length about the same as diameter.
You could probably take a smaller caliber Lee mold and plunge in with a 13/32 end mill to make a .407 WC or just use a 13/32 drill and maintain the 135 deg drill point angle. It would be similar to the Hornady 410 slug ball combo they now load. If I get some time I may try this. I did buy 2 boxes a Magtech brass 410 shells for experimenting.

[Tackleberry41]

I have a lathe so could probably come up with some sort of mold to fit the brass and barrel. I made slug molds for 20ga and 16ga that work pretty good, a slow process since they dont crack open like a regular mold. I have wondered how a 40 or 41 cal pistol bullet would do, HP loaded backwards. Tho didn't see any HP molds in either caliber on midway. Could probably mod my 40 cal mold to be HP. But I have enough projects, and a 410 slugs arent real high up on the list.

[220]

RCBS makes an actual 0.410" round ball mold, its special order and expensive, but it does exist. Just an FYI if you have a hankering to try something a little closer to the bore diameter then a 0.395" ball.

Trouble is just about every 410 I have checked is about .395 in the choke.

[cpileri]

I know it is bad juju to fire full bore slugs thru a full choke, but i did use a 41-cal 210gr semi-wadcutter loaded backwards into a stump over 8gr o 2400 in a 410. Flew pretty straight.

lead was BHN around 13-15, i think.

'Course, i have not mic'd out my choke since i did that... maybe its now a cylinder bore...

C-

[turbo1889]

Although most 410-bore guns do have a choke that is around 0.395" (and thus a ball of that size is a good bet) not all of them do. Their are cylinder bore guns out there, some from the factory and some cut-downs. There are some with interchangeable choke tubes. And there are even some that are jug-choked. And then there are the 410-shot/45-LC combo guns that obviously can take a ball size all the way up to 45-LC bullet diameter.

I've got two true cylinder bore guns, one factory and one cut down, one interchangeable choke tube gun with both true cylinder and rifled choke tube and several different choke constriction tubes, and then a couple combo guns ~ all in 410-bore. I've only got one 410-bore gun in my arsenal with a fixed choke that technically is too tight to take a full bore diameter ball but even then if I just use soft lead with maybe just a dash of tin I can shoot full bore balls in it all day long and have done so. I don't run hard cast full bore balls through it though, and and I certainly check what tube I've got on the end of the barrel for the gun with interchangeable tubes. My tightest tube for that gun mics at 0.374" :shock: where as with the true cylinder bore thread protector tube (external threaded barrel for tubes rather then U.S. type internal threads we are more used too) and the rifled choke tube both shoot full bore balls cast of very hard alloy absolutely beautiful.

Long story short, there are certainly guns that can benefit from a full size ball, including in the 410-bore. I do agree though that the 0.395" ball size is a whole lot easier and cheaper to get a mold for and works reasonably well in most guns and is "choke safe" even with hard alloy for almost all 410-bore guns although there are a few with chokes that go tighter then that but they are the anomalies not the rule.

[220]

Thanks for the info turbo1889, my concern isn't so much ironing the choke out although I guess it might happen with very hard cast but more I cant see being swaged down 15 thou or more as they leave the barrel improving accuracy.
Your round ball would then no longer be round and without and stability from rifling I think they would actually shoot worse than
.395 balls.

[turbo1889]

Can't argue with that by any means (and why would I want too?)

If your gun is 0.395" or just a couple thousands of an inch more or less in the choke then that size round ball is probably a very good bet for accuracy. I use that ball size myself a whole lot especially for multi-ball loads since the smaller ball saves on weight which becomes an issue when you start putting a bunch of them in the load stacked in a row on top of each other.

I also consider a 0.395" ball cast for not soft but not super hard either WW alloy to be a very good load either singularly or in multiples that is generally "choke safe" in the vast majority of guns and thus are good loads to have around in quantity that you don't have to worry about being used in the wrong gun and bad things potentially happening.

[OnHoPr]

You ever look at trackofthewolf site? It has rb's in 389, 395, 400, 410, 424, 429 and the like.

[turbo1889]

Yup, and at a good price too, but they are all cast from dead soft pure lead. If that is what you want then a good source but if you want hard alloy balls your SOL at least for buying them from TotW.

[OnHoPr]

I will agree with you on that turbo. I have had my best results with WDWW buckshot. Though an older reloading book (circa 60's) on buckshot and slugs I scanned over at the library had very good results with soft buckshot in a few incidences. IIRC the specifics dealt with how soft the wad column was along with buffering and the combination of choke. Have any of you considered using a wheel cylinder brake hone for altering the choke on 410's. I know just like cutting boards for building you can't grow it back, but possibly with a heavy shop press you could recontrict the choke.

[xs hedspace]

One evil thought I had for my .410 defense loads was to see how many #12 solid copper 1 1/4" long scrap wires could be stacked in a plastic cup wad. I made some loads for my .357 revolver I called Rabid Raccoon loads out of 1/2" long pieces of scrap #12 copper, about 7 or 8 stacked over a cork gasket wad with 9 gr Unique, and crimped. Did nasty things to 3/4" plywood about 15 ft away! Might even use solid 50/50 solder lengths stacked in the ,410.